seem like a good deal - is it?

[ugawarrent]

Hi, I am a newbie to this really great site and forums! I''ve gone through the tutorials, and have been convinced of the importance of cut to how great a diamond looks. However, my soon-to-be fiancee says, "I want a big one," (as big as we can within my budget) and most women in my peer group seem to agree... So, I''m trying to balance my own desire for a diamond I''m impressed with, and getting one that SHE loves - which is really more important anyway!

So, I found this diamond at Solomon Brothers. 1.51 ct H SI2, for $7400. Cut info is below. The HCA calculator in this site says it''s a 1.7 score (TIC). But then I compare it to other stones using the Cut Quality search, and it seems like I''m getting a better deal than I would''ve expected at at B&M place. Anyone have any thoughts on why this stone is discounted? Does it seem like a good value anyway?

Thanks so much for your expertise and advice!
Warren

Report info from the GIA lookup:
Report Type: GIA Diamond Grading Report
Date of Issue: March 07, 2008
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.28 - 7.31 x 4.55 mm
Carat Weight: 1.51
Color Grade: H
Clarity Grade: SI2
Cut Grade: Very Good

Proportions:
Depth: 62.4 %
Table: 57 %
Crown Angle: 35°
Crown Height: 15 %
Pavilion Angle: 40.8°
Pavilion Depth: 43 %
Star length: 45 %
Lower Half: 75 %
Girdle: Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: None

Finish:
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None

 

[honey22]

I''m not sure about those numbers? Are they correct? The cut grade is only very good, but it falls into GIA excellent with those numbers. Have you got the cert # so we can check?

I am sure the answer is staring me in the face, but I just am slow today

 

[Skippy123]

I got my setting from them and they were good to work with; I bought my stone from WF. I would find out if the stone is eye clean since it is an SI2.

 

[ugawarrent]

My thoughts exactly Honey, why the "Very Good" if HCA says it''s TIC? Yes, I have the cert number, and I verified it using the lookup tool on the GIA website. The details I posted at the end of my message were copied & pasted directly off the GIA website.

As for "eye clean," I don''t think I quite understand the term... I found the (or at least "an") inclusion using the loop (in the table but near a vertex), but then couldn''t then spot it very well without it, even knowing where to look. Is that pretty much the essence of what you mean when you say "eye clean"?

Thanks!

Warren

 

[ugawarrent]

Well thought I''d post the number too: GIA REPORT 16904849. I have a photocopy of the report from Solomon Bros, and then used the number to lookup online. Everything matched my printout. Could this be a case of a misgrading, and therefore a great deal?

 

[zerj]

The HCA should be used as a rough tool to weed out poor stones. I don''t think it can be used to gauge why a stone with a good HCA score would be listed only being cut ''very good''. The HCA only uses 4 measurements while there are 50+ facets on the stone any which of them could be cut poorly . To me this sounds like trying to judge the quality of a used car by looking at the exteriour. You have no idea if that lamborghini sitting on the lot is a good car if it has a great paint job without taking it for a test drive. However if it has lots of body rust and 4 flat tires you probably don''t need to look under the hood.

If you want to compare stats I might suggest looking at other 1.5 Caret stones that are graded ''perfect'' just to see if you can see a difference. I will say the diameter of that solomon stone seems smaller than a lot of comparison stones. All things being equal I woudn''t want to pay for a 1.5ct stone that looks exactly the same size as a 1.4ct stone when viewed from the top.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 5/6/2008 9:28:22 AM
Author: ugawarrent
My thoughts exactly Honey, why the 'Very Good' if HCA says it's TIC? Yes, I have the cert number, and I verified it using the lookup tool on the GIA website. The details I posted at the end of my message were copied & pasted directly off the GIA website.

As for 'eye clean,' I don't think I quite understand the term... I found the (or at least 'an') inclusion using the loop (in the table but near a vertex), but then couldn't then spot it very well without it, even knowing where to look. Is that pretty much the essence of what you mean when you say 'eye clean'?

Thanks!

Warren

Oh so you saw this stone in person? Did you like the way it looked? I was saying if you had not seen it and if it has inclusions you can see right away, then it isn't eye clean. You can plug in the numbers in this tool to see price comparison. https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-prices.aspx

 

[Skippy123]

Does the report say cut grade based on brillianteering???

 

[ugawarrent]

Yeah, I saw it in person. It didn''t have the "wow" factor of a smaller, report-labeled better cut diamond that I was looking at next to it. Thought it was noticeably a little bigger.

Here''s a diamond I found at WF that I thought looked nice. Any concerns from on looking at the GIA cert plot that it wouldn''t be eye clean? http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Diamond_Details.aspx?idno=680215

It''s good to know you''ve had experience taking in a stone to Solomon - that''s comforting.

I think I''m still torn between my own desire to get an ideal cut stone (from reading all the material here) and my girlfriend''s desire for a "big" stone. The WF one is really a little out of my price range (or at least stretching it). Any way to convince her?

Anyone know if Solomon would have an Ideal Scope there they''d let me use when looking at stones?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/6/2008 11:50:22 AM
Author: Skippy123
Does the report say cut grade based on brillianteering???

That is what I was wondering, if that is the case, it will say on the GIA report.

 

[ugawarrent]

Date: 5/6/2008 11:50:22 AM
Author: Skippy123
Does the report say cut grade based on brillianteering???

Nope, I don''t see anything about that. I did a quick search of the forums just to make sure I wasn''t misinterpreting anything, but I see nothing. The report is dated May 7 2008, and there are no comments. I only have the photocopy of the "front" of the report, no inserts or the like, in case it might have been noted somewhere else.

 

[Ellen]

As for the price, in doing a search, it looks like ERD is listing the same stone for 8022.00. So your price isn''t bad at all, but I don''t know why it got that cut grade. Ask GIA? The data looks good on what we have...

Also, it''s facing up bigger than a 1.4, which I have and measures 7.25. But I do think you are losing just a tad of spread with the depth. It is not always possible to get them to face up exactly as a chart may say though.

 

[strmrdr]

the price is in the too good too be true range, something is wierd on the cut grade, and you noticed a lose in performance, its eyecleanish and not eyeclean.
So no its not a good deal at all except just maybe for a size is everything person.

 

[ugawarrent]

Date: 5/6/2008 12:05:30 PM
Author: Ellen
So your price isn''t bad at all, but I don''t know why it got that cut grade. Ask GIA?

I''m not sure if you were joking, but I did send them an email. I''m not expecting to hear anything back, considering I sent it to a "mailbox" address ([email protected]), but what could it hurt...

"Hi, I’m considering buying a diamond that has a GIA report: Report # 16904849, a 1.51 carat Round Brilliant. The Cut Grade is listed as Very Good, though the proportions listed might indicate that it could be in the Excellent range. I’m trying to best understand the value of the diamond I’m considering, so can you tell me if there were any specific factors which led it to be graded VG instead of Ex? Was there brillianteering involved?"

 

[JulieN]

Moving TD down to 62.2 (and thus moving girdle to 4.0% instead of the 4.5% it is at with a 62.4% TD) gives it an Excellent grade. So, probably girdle is too thick.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 5/6/2008 2:50:23 PM
Author: ugawarrent

Date: 5/6/2008 12:05:30 PM
Author: Ellen
So your price isn''t bad at all, but I don''t know why it got that cut grade. Ask GIA?

I''m not sure if you were joking, but I did send them an email. I''m not expecting to hear anything back, considering I sent it to a ''mailbox'' address ([email protected]), but what could it hurt...

''Hi, I’m considering buying a diamond that has a GIA report: Report # 16904849, a 1.51 carat Round Brilliant. The Cut Grade is listed as Very Good, though the proportions listed might indicate that it could be in the Excellent range. I’m trying to best understand the value of the diamond I’m considering, so can you tell me if there were any specific factors which led it to be graded VG instead of Ex? Was there brillianteering involved?''

No, actually I was serious. Who knows if they''ll answer, but no harm in trying.

 

[ugawarrent]

Date: 5/6/2008 3:04:04 PM
Author: JulieN
So, probably girdle is too thick.

Julie, yeah the girdle is reported as "slightly thick, faceted" according to the report. So that corroborates your thoughts, right? Not that I really understand the implications... Mind explaining the effect of a too-thick girdle?

Also, surprise of surprises, I did get a response from GIA. I would imagine the references included in the email below are old hat to many of you, but thought I would share that as well.

Dear xxxxx,

Our confidentiality policy only permits me to discuss the details of a grading report with the client of record unless proper authorization is provided. As a third party I can only validate the report information for you.

I can direct you to our website to help give you a fuller understanding of how the cut grade is calculated.

Estimating the Cut Grade
http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/06_estimating_a_cut_grade.html


There are also a few articles you may find helpful.

Proportion Measurement: Tolerances for the GIA Cut Grading System
http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/pdf/0805_pg34_39.pdf

Measurement Tolerances: Accuracy and Precision in the Gem Industry
http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/pdf/4_05_RDR_pg183_185.pdf


Painting and Digging Out: Variations on Standard Brillianteering of Round Brilliant Diamonds
http://www.diamondcut.gia.edu/pdf/6_05_RDR_pg239_243pdf.pdf

I hope the information I have provided is useful. Please contact me directly if you have any further questions.

Thank you for your support of GIA.
__________________________________
//private information information redacted

 

[JulieN]

STK is within GIA EX. But it is a cause of smaller face-up appearance.

It's been a long time since everyone at PS was on top of GIA grading procedures, so this might not be the way GIA does it, but maybe it is:
I believe the verbal description of girdle thickness is based on a visual assessment, rather than proportion scan. It is possible that when calculating cut grade, GIA used the numbers from the scan, and there was a disagreement between the visual grading and the scan.

 

[ugawarrent]

Well, I can''t find the exact girdle dimensions on the report or data I have available, so there goes that. Thanks for mentioning FacetWare - that''s an interesting tool (even if I certainly don''t understand it all).

So, maybe here''s another way of asking this question: What''s really the difference in appearance of a GIA "excellent" and "Very good" cut stone? Is the non-discerning eye (which I''d guess most people have) really going to be able to tell a difference in the fire/brilliance/light performance between these two? Like how an average layperson would find it difficult to tell the difference between a G and H or E and F without special conditions?

Thank you again for all the advice and input. It''s invaluable!

 

[whatmeworry]

Playing with Facetware, going from a 57 table to a 56 will also get you from VG to Excellent. So in your case (a boderline case), I would think there is no discernible difference from the VG you are looking at and an Excellent cut. And if the stone is discounted because the cut is only VG and not Excellent, that''s a bonus. If you like it, buy it.