Sarin numbers or Aset image better tool to assess quality?

[oldminer]

All the scanners which take side views of diamonds to measure them have an inherent and uncorrectable problem with getting exact width and length, and exact widths of the table. The only way around these issues is to combine the side views with top views. With a top view you can measure any set of points across the stone for width and length, and by highlighting the table with angled lighting, you can also get a very precise set of table measures. The top view allows for correct measures without regard to the alignment of the sides of the stone to one another, or the sides of the table to one another.

All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone. Many times, this is not the case at all.

Combining the top and side views in measuring diamonds electronically enhances the repeatability and accuracy of the measures. As the measures provided become more and more accurate, the ability to say more about the potential quality of the cut especially via a top and side scanner, is increased.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer
All the scanners which take side views of diamonds to measure them have an inherent and uncorrectable problem with getting exact width and length, and exact widths of the table. The only way around these issues is to combine the side views with top views. With a top view you can measure any set of points across the stone for width and length, and by highlighting the table with angled lighting, you can also get a very precise set of table measures. The top view allows for correct measures without regard to the alignment of the sides of the stone to one another, or the sides of the table to one another.

All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone. Many times, this is not the case at all.

Combining the top and side views in measuring diamonds electronically enhances the repeatability and accuracy of the measures. As the measures provided become more and more accurate, the ability to say more about the potential quality of the cut especially via a top and side scanner, is increased.

What you say is true Dave - the table / crown / stars are the hardest bit to measure accurately, but they are also the least important in terms of the impact on appearance. There are also other ways to achieve this outcome that Sergey and I have a patent for.

 

[oldminer]

Good to know that there is a work-around process. As always, I am just interested in how things get done. See you in Vegas. I''m leaving in the morning, Saturday.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/23/2008 5:39:41 PM
Author: oldminer
Good to know that there is a work-around process. As always, I am just interested in how things get done. See you in Vegas. I''m leaving in the morning, Saturday.

Vrooom vrooom!

 

[researcher]

I''m not even close to being an expert, but for me the Aset image is not the best, and I don''t like the numbers at all. But, it depends on what you want from your stone (brilliance, fire, scintillation).

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 5/23/2008 7:53:36 PM
Author: researcher
I''m not even close to being an expert, but for me the Aset image is not the best, and I don''t like the numbers at all. But, it depends on what you want from your stone (brilliance, fire, scintillation).

Then you probably want utopia Researcher. Me too

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/23/2008 7:53:36 PM
Author: researcher
I''m not even close to being an expert, but for me the Aset image is not the best, and I don''t like the numbers at all. But, it depends on what you want from your stone (brilliance, fire, scintillation).

Just wanted to say hello, Researcher.

Looks like it''s been almost 2 years. Hope all is well!

 

[John P]

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I have looked into this...
picture this spinning and your taking pictures of it its not that hard to figure out the table size once you seperate it out from the platform. (hard part)

 

[strmrdr]

try it with this one your problem just got a million times harder.

 

[John P]

Date: 5/24/2008 12:48:29 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I have looked into this...
picture this spinning and your taking pictures of it its not that hard to figure out the table size once you seperate it out from the platform. (hard part)

Right. I''d like to get more clarification on what Dave was saying and then consult Serg - it may be incorrect re Helium.

 

[strmrdr]

stars are hard because you are trying to find the very slight variations to pinpoint the start point the red lines point to.

 

[strmrdr]

woops forgot the picture...

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 12:54:51 AM
Author: John Pollard

Right. I'd like to get more clarification on what Dave was saying and then consult Serg - it may be incorrect re Helium.

right I was getting to that....
There are ways of dealing with this and helium does it by building a virtual model as a check.
Which is why importing a base model if the scanner misses will improve the accuracy because it can check against the model.

Serg or Garry can correct me if im wrong but that is my understanding of it.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

http://www.google.com/patents?id=-zmBAAAAEBAJ&dq=sivovolenko

What Dave is describing is that it is difficult to accurately define the azimuth of facet direction from a side ways scan. The angle or slope of a facet is rather easy in a side view. The azimuth of a stone with a wide facet - like an emerald cut can accutally be more important than its slope.
Azimuth is like the compass point direction.

The above link to our patent describes and claims inventivness for a number of methods to do that. Currently there is no demand for such accuracy, but we know after the master Stone Study and we bring out a real cut grading system, this will be important.

Sarin do fiddle the data by making the apparently opposing facets more parallel etc - , but AGS do not use the sarin .srn fiddled file - they go back to the raw .stl file.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I am assuming the talk is in regards to RB''s..., is it not more complicated when it comes to fancies? especially straight edge models?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 1:58:17 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I am assuming the talk is in regards to RB''s..., is it not more complicated when it comes to fancies? especially straight edge models?

its actualy the same problem as with the stars, telling where one facet ends and another starts.
cut an asscher with 4 degrees difference in steps crown and pavilion then measure it on a sarin machine and view the 3d file in the sarin utility it makes your results on the monster asscher look accurate.
Now to make it even worse slightly tilt one or two of those facets left to right and you will get phantom facets.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/24/2008 2:51:04 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/24/2008 1:58:17 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I am assuming the talk is in regards to RB''s..., is it not more complicated when it comes to fancies? especially straight edge models?

its actualy the same problem as with the stars, telling where one facet ends and another starts.
cut an asscher with 4 degrees difference in steps crown and pavilion then measure it on a sarin machine and view the 3d file in the sarin utility it makes your results on the monster asscher look accurate.
Now to make it even worse slightly tilt one or two of those facets left to right and you will get phantom facets.

What about measuring the diameters on straight edge''s..., how would the scanner react to a slightly unparalleled shape in a straight edge design?

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/24/2008 3:00:34 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 2:51:04 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/24/2008 1:58:17 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 12:32:47 AM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 5/23/2008 2:32:36 PM
Author: oldminer

...All side view scanners are forced to assume the sides are parallel and to some extent that the table orients with exactness to the sides of the stone...

Can you elaborate on this Dave?

I am assuming the talk is in regards to RB''s..., is it not more complicated when it comes to fancies? especially straight edge models?

its actualy the same problem as with the stars, telling where one facet ends and another starts.
cut an asscher with 4 degrees difference in steps crown and pavilion then measure it on a sarin machine and view the 3d file in the sarin utility it makes your results on the monster asscher look accurate.
Now to make it even worse slightly tilt one or two of those facets left to right and you will get phantom facets.

What about measuring the diameters on straight edge''s..., how would the scanner react to a slightly unparalleled shape in a straight edge design?

Diagem,

See http://www.octonus.com/oct/products/helium/polish/parameter24.phtml
Second picture

Dave,


There are relative easy add one short from Table direction and increase table accuracy measurements.
But it will not help increase accuracy optical appearance calculation( or even cut grading system based on parameters) . Table is not so critical like pavilion( specially for fancy cuts like cushion, pear, radiant with a lot of internal reflections) .
Such short will just increase cost of scanner without real increasing final accuracy 3D model( of course somebody could use it in promotional materials . Just it)
On first view table photo looks helpful but after detail analysis I sure it useless( at least for scanner with accuracy like helium and diamonds 0.3ct +)
For scanner with low accuracy or diamond 0.01-0.1 ct it could be helpful
If strong market demand for more accuracy come we will add upgrade to our Helium scanners according our patent( to combine shadow images and front images from “side ” scanners )

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 3:00:34 AM
Author: DiaGem
What about measuring the diameters on straight edge''s..., how would the scanner react to a slightly unparalleled shape in a straight edge design?

phantom facets on the sarin, especially if the girdle was square and the rest was off left to right.

 

[strmrdr]

Here is an example of a left to right tilted facet giving phantom facets in the sarin viewer.

 

[strmrdr]

since there are 2 threads on nearly he same topic I will post this here also....

 

[John P]

Otay. As in the other thread; one scan does not a case study make.

1. Send the stone to 10 suppliers with Sarin.
2. Send it to 5 cut-focused retailers with Sarin.
3. Send it to GIA and AGS.

Do you think you might see some differences in the results?

 

[strmrdr]

in case you dont see my email you logged into the wrong account.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 3:03:20 PM
Author: JohnP
Otay. As in the other thread; one scan does not a case study make.

1. Send the stone to 10 suppliers with Sarin.
2. Send it to 5 cut-focused retailers with Sarin.
3. Send it to GIA and AGS.

Do you think you might see some differences in the results?

at them time that was done the case study was over 15 diamonds.
If you really want to see them all I can try and find them.
Both machines were calibrated that day.

With the phantom facets they are so common on sarin scans that I dont even bother using the sarin viewer anymore.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/24/2008 10:11:54 AM
Author: strmrdr
Here is an example of a left to right tilted facet giving phantom facets in the sarin viewer.

Phantom facets = impossible error facets?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 4:24:34 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 10:11:54 AM
Author: strmrdr
Here is an example of a left to right tilted facet giving phantom facets in the sarin viewer.

Phantom facets = impossible error facets?

that too but more basic its facets that don''t exist on the real diamond.
Sometimes they are possible but they aren''t there on the real diamond other times they are impossible to cut that way.

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/24/2008 4:44:19 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/24/2008 4:24:34 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/24/2008 10:11:54 AM
Author: strmrdr
Here is an example of a left to right tilted facet giving phantom facets in the sarin viewer.

Phantom facets = impossible error facets?

that too but more basic its facets that don''t exist on the real diamond.
Sometimes they are possible but they aren''t there on the real diamond other times they are impossible to cut that way.

So..., optic error during the scan?
And it happens with Sarin only?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/24/2008 4:50:35 PM
Author: DiaGem
So..., optic error during the scan?
And it happens with Sarin only?

figuring out all the causes is beyond what I want to think about.
All I can say for 100% is that it does it with step cuts a lot.
I havent seen it with the helium.
Here is the kicker....
Helium picked one up that is actualy there that sarin totaly missed.

 

[strmrdr]

btw this is a woofer that Jon kept around to show how a bad P3 angle can be hidden and as a comp to his well cut asschers.

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/4118/