Sarin Notices too !!!!!!!!!!

[RockDoc]

This morning I received the email pasted below from Sarin.. They have addressed the calulated weight vs. the actual weight "problem" in the reports, as discussed on the other thread.

Rockdoc

______________________________________________________________________________________________


Dear Mr. Lieberum,

I am referring to your post on PriceScope dated 8/17/2006 6:56:25 PM in the thread titled "Differences in Sarin and AGS???" (originally posted at this link: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/differences-in-sarin-and-ags.49345/page-2).

I would like to correct a few misunderstandings that you and others may have about our equipment.

Sarin’s DiaVision™ cut grading software accurately calculates the diamond weight based on the exact volume of the scanned diamond, as calculated after measuring its facets and multiplying that by the diamond’s specific gravity. There is no “generic formula” we use to “estimate” the weight.
DiaVision™ allows the user to enter the “Actual Weight” of the diamond, as measured on an external diamond scale. DiaVision™ software can display and print either the above explained “Calculated Weight” or the “Actual Weight” (as entered by the user) or both. This means you do not need to explain anything to your customer regarding these minute weight differences and make no apologies for the equipment. You simply need to enter the weight you want to print on the customer’s report and correctly configure DiaVision™ to display that weight, and that weight only, if that’s what you desire.

For a complete explanation on how to use the different weight display options in DiaVision™ I refer you to the DiaVision™ 4.0 User’s Manual available online at this link: http://www.sarin.com/downloads/DiaVision_4.0_Users_Guide.pdf (refer to page 20, article 3). For more information on how to incorporate the different weight data fields into your customized reports, refer to the chapter titled “Using DiaVision Data Fields” on page 119.

I urge you, in future, to call upon our professional support team’s expertise with similar issues. They are always available at [email protected] or by contacting your local Sarin dealer (either Kassoy or Sarin USA. Their contact details can be found at this link: http://www.sarin.com/distributors_america.shtml). Contacting them can save you a lot of difficulty in dealing with technical issues like the one you raised on PriceScope.

Finally, feel free to quote this e-mail on PriceScope or anywhere else you believe it will be useful.

Regards,

Udi Lederer
Vice President of Marketing
Sarin Technologies Ltd.
4 Hahilazon Street
Ramat Gan 52522
Israel
Tel: +(972)-3-7515490 Ext. 110
Fax: +(972)-3-7515485
E-mail: [email protected]
Web: www.sarin.com

“One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one''s work is terribly important.”

- Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970), Conquest of Happiness (1930) ch. 5

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[Serg]

Hi, Udi

What diamond density do Sarin use?

 

[denverappraiser]

I''m pleased to see that they''ve addressed this. I''ve been irritated by it many many times. It''s curious that they would choose to describe this as a ''misunderstanding''. I"m a long term and loyal customer of Sarin and this has been a problem with their reports ever since I''ve owned Sarin equipment, I ''ve discussed it with their tech people and they have had no solution to offer. It''s wonderful to hear that it was addressed in their software upgrade last week.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

hmmm so anyone can put any weight they want too in. Kinda destroys the idea of using weight as a sanity check.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 8/21/2006 11:39:01 AM
Author: Serg
Hi, Udi

What diamond density do Sarin use?

Hi Serg..

I notice that DiamondCalc defaults to a 3.522 gm/cc, and I think most would use a 3.52 median value, but it would be interesting to know. They might embed it in their SRN data stream, but it isn''t in the ascii text portion of the file (maybe the binary).

I think it is VERY difficult to get hydrostatic density mesurement accuracies in the third decimal place.

I don''t think any interpolation/integration will ever get to the accuracy of a high end 5 place scale like what is used in most labs (AGS/GIA).

While GIA''s adherence to the DDC''s International weighing standard (0.999 ct needed to be called a 1.00). AGS quite rightly, gives the data to three places, and lets the client decide how to round, as I believe, in the US, one can call a 0.995 a 1 carat stone.

 

[oldminer]

The weight is CALCULATED to help insure the user that the calibration is intact and properly set. It is not supposed to replace the weight derived from a scale. One always uses a scale to find exact weight and to sell a diamond. Only on set diamonds will an estimated weight be acceptable, but this is not derived on a Sarin as they only measure unmounted diamonds.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 8/21/2006 2:54:34 PM
Author: oldminer
The weight is CALCULATED to help insure the user that the calibration is intact and properly set. It is not supposed to replace the weight derived from a scale. One always uses a scale to find exact weight and to sell a diamond. Only on set diamonds will an estimated weight be acceptable, but this is not derived on a Sarin as they only measure unmounted diamonds.

Obviously Dave, but I guess the question would be is how much variation from measured weight versus calculated, as a percentage, would/could one expect before a red flag is waved, given Sarin (or Imagem) type device uncertainties, coupled with density variations in the diamond itself.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/21/2006 2:18:08 PM
Author: strmrdr
hmmm so anyone can put any weight they want too in. Kinda destroys the idea of using weight as a sanity check.

Storm,

I have to dissagree with you on this one. When I had the cheap (5K) version of the Sarin machine I noticed that quite often the actual weight of the diamond would be one or more points off from the calculated weight by Sarin. If I was showing a .75ct diamond and the accompanying Sarin for a .74ct diamond there was WAY too much difficulty in trying to explain the variance, especially with internet clients, as my local clients never seem to care about that level of detail.

I eventually just returned the machine to GIA, it would give me too many variences when measuring the same stone for me to ever be comfortable using it with a client here. The most extreme was a stone that measured an AGS 0 cut grade and an AGS 5 cut grade on two consecutive measurings.

So... If I was to ever buy one again, being able to input the correct weight would be important to me. I think a sanity check is not a valid reason for stating the wrong weight when there is the ability to state the actual weight.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/21/2006 2:54:34 PM
Author: oldminer
The weight is CALCULATED to help insure the user that the calibration is intact and properly set. It is not supposed to replace the weight derived from a scale. One always uses a scale to find exact weight and to sell a diamond. Only on set diamonds will an estimated weight be acceptable, but this is not derived on a Sarin as they only measure unmounted diamonds.

The problem is that with the standard reports, the weight is listed, it''s not identified as calculated and it''s not an optional field. It''s simply labeld as ''weight'' followed by a number. This regularly leads to a need to explain to customers about why it''s different than what is observed on the scale. The weight is calculated to the third decimal place so it''s almost a total crap shoot for it to match exactly to a measured weight.

They could have solved the problem by simply changing the labels. If they are using a weight as entered by the user, this too should be properly labeled because of the possibility of operator errors, in both weighing and typing and it should be clear that this was not something measured by Sarin.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

hi Udi,

Glad your insanity in Israel has cooled down.

Folks there are 2 reasons why a volume x SG weight can be wrong.

1. The SG of diamond varies slightly.
2. the scan is not super accurate.

There is nothing wrong with adding an optional weight after the calculated on has been done.

But one scanner company I believe makes the data match the weight that can be entered before hand - this is bad because the SG can vary