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Sam''s Club "Ideal Cut" diamonds?!

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Mikesgirl

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
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Hey Cut Nut - your crusade is spreading. I received a flyer today from Sam''s Club advertising H&A and "Ideal Cut" by IGI standards. For example

http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_results.jsp?BV_SessionID=_SC_0071743772.1068069770_CS_&BV_EngineID=ccchadcjklgjjkgcfkfcfkjdgoodflg.0&search_string=diamonds&restrictions=EXACT+%40name_ancestry%3a%22Rings%22&restrictions=EXACT+%40name_ancestry%3a%22Solitaires%22&crumbs=Rings&crumbs=Solitaires&search_page=1

Of course, it was impossible to get the specs on the stone. Still, I thought it interesting that they were even bothering to mention it.

Evolution, not revolution - right.
 
Now you can also get your "heavy stuff" there too... http://www.jckgroup.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA333765&webzine=jck&publication=jck§ion=Retail+Roundup ...the place is turning out to be a one stop shop!
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Yes, Marty, I got the flyer in the mail too and brought it in to show my staff. I think I am going to go in this Sunday to take a look at the diamonds...will be interesting to see what IGI considers to be H and A
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LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com
 
Lesley - Please let us know what you see. Not that Sam's club would ever be in the running against the great internet vendors on this site, but it will certainly be interesting to hear what a pro like you thinks.
 
Hi guys!

Well, I headed off to Sam's Club this afternoon and had the opportunity to take a look at the one "H&A" diamond they had in stock. I walked in and headed straight for the jewelry counter. There was an elderly man staffing the counter and it took me a couple of times to explain to him what I wanted to see. He took me over to the case and explained that they only had one "Ideal cut" diamond in stock. I might add at this point that I selected the Sam's Club that is in the best area of Houston to ensure that they would have stock
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Anyway he took out a V-prong platinum ring with a .75 H VS2 set into it. He encouraged me to look at the diamond under the counter which had better lighting, explaining that warehouse lighting was not going to do justice to these diamonds. First, I could see no recognizable arrows pattern in the diamond. When you have worked with these diamonds enough you can see the arrows pattern with the naked eye. I did not take my Whiteflash H&A scope with me as it would have been too obvious. Second, the diamond was no ways an H. It looked like a low J to me. Keep in mind that the diamonds are graded by the IGI so I was not surprised. I did ask to see a loose diamond so I could try and see the hearts but the diamonds only come set. The salesman was very kind and courteous, but did not offer me any education whatsoever. He told me that when I was ready they could order me any size and color diamond I requested.

On a positive note the packaging was very nice and the marketing brochure was top notch. Atleast they are catering for the shopper who might have gone to the mall and will do a little better there.

Oh, and as usual I walked out with $150 worth of things I really didn't need
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Regards,

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com
 
I've seen one here in Kansas City as well.

.75 ct, H, VS2 mounted in a platinum "Tiffany" style semi mount. No accent diamonds.

No visible arrows. Sales Lady has no knowledge of her product, but was courteous and very helpful (as much as she could be). She let me look at the ring (no unmounted diamonds) and try it on. I "sheepishly" said I wanted to see how it looked compared to my necklace and she said, "Sure, honey. I understand you want to make sure your jewelry goes together." My daughter unhooks my White Flash ACA pendant necklace and we put the 2 side by side.

Sam's Club "H&A" had nice sparkle and fire in the warehouse lighting. ACA had WOW sparkle and fire. H vs H, plat vs white gold, the Sam's Club was definitely lower color than my ACA. As a non pro, giving the benefit of the doubt, I'd say an I color, but probably J since the color difference was soooo obvious. Even my 14 year old daughters could see the difference!
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No visible inclusions, so I'll give them the VS2 clarity. And, my .766 ct had a visibly larger diameter than their .75 carat.
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I told the Sales Lady I'd have to hint to hubby for Christmas, gave her back the ring, and thanked her. Then I left the store with $85 more in stuff that I hadn't planned to buy.
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lesleyh,


you wrote:


First, I could see no recognizable arrows pattern in the diamond. When you have worked with these diamonds enough you can see the arrows pattern with the naked eye. I did not take my Whiteflash H&A scope with me as it would have been too obvious.


why too obvious??? what is your problem? are they going to kill you if you demand to see the h&a? after all, they sell those as h&a aren’t they?



now, i am manufacturing as entrepreneur for various large companies, big part of my production is h&a. one of my main clients buys of my production and certifies with ags while another major client is sams club’s supplier and certifies with igi.



do you really think I polish my stones differently for one or another? didn’t you know that igi is stricter for h&a than the ags?



then you wrote: the diamond was no ways an H. It looked like a low J to me/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



tell me, do you have bionic eyes allowing you to color-grade in the mounting (!!!) at a mall / shop? Don’t make me laugh !!! any pro will tell you this is belony./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



i called the igi in order for them to read your nonsence. their only reaction so far was “when you really want to hit a dog, you will always find a stick”/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



i polish diamonds and sell them to large companies which you are not./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



you are damaging my reputation and I will not allow this to happen./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



if this is the only way you are able to promote your goods then I feel consumers should know: your opinion isn't worth much because you are biased./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>



robbe /www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>

 
lesley, just telephoned with someone you are working with (sschhhht, one of your suppliers) and guess what:


i polished some stones that you bought/sold recently.


funny, you and sams have stones that originates from the same polisher, me.


enjoy your afternoon, buddy.


robbe
 
Robbe:

Please let us know who you are. I sign my company under my name.

There is a good chance that we may have sold some of your diamonds at one time or another. In addition to our own inventory we sell diamonds that are housed at manufacturers and vendors around the country. One thing I can assure you is that I HAVE NOT sold your "Hearts and Arrows" diamonds as H and A! The only Hearts and Arrows we sell are our A CUT ABOVE branded Hearts and Arrows which are cut under strict quality control.

My visit to Sam's was not intended to undermine your product. We have been discussing H and A diamonds here on Pricescope since the beginning of time. I received a brochure in the mail and decided to go and see for myself. I would be happy to receive one of your H and A diamonds here at our premises. We'll pay for the shipping and then we can compare apples with apples. I will be happy to post the results on Pricescope.

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com
 
PQ..interesting...your post sounds almost identical to Lesley's and you aren't even a vendor! You were just a consumer comparing with your naked eye.
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It was great to hear how your ACA H&A compared against the SC's H&A stones. We all know that H&A for the most part is *perception* based as there are no stringent guidelines...so it's good to know that the ACA still blew you away.
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Also from a visual perspective, it is quite easy to tell color differences in stones even in mountings -- especially when compared against other stones. If a stone looked like an I or J to someone in a mounting...since that is how stones are WORN..in mountings..., why does it matter what the stone would look like loose? Even if when unset it looked like an H, but in the mounting it degraded in visual color to I or J...that ruins the whole point doesn't it?




BTW Lesley....can I get that quote sometime soon?
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Oh and what about those .25-.27c ACA pictures and Scope images etc...I keep looking but nothing has changed.
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Hey Mara Lady!

I can see arrows in my ACA from time to time. Just like in the pics posted here by our many great photographers. I think that is soooo neat!

My girls have been around with Mom enough now to tell the difference between poor, nice, and great stones. They've learned what to look for with the eye and they know what to ask for on paper as well. Sometimes more than dung flows down hill!
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I asked about an unmounted H&A diamond because Sam's had a couple loose diamonds in the little packets in the show case. The Sales Lady told me those weren't the H&A's but they were Certified. She directed me to the one H&A they had in stock. We (my daughters and I) were amazed by the color difference between my H and the Sam's H diamonds.
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PQ - I was reading through some old posts and found this link....

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/diamond-photography-competition.9751/

Go about half way down the first page and isn't that your pendant posted by Robbe??

Small world eh?

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com
 
Thanks for the feedback Lesley and PQ. I find it interesting that a place like Sam's would even bother to go the H&A route. There must be consumers asking, or they wouldn't bother. The crusade goes on.
 
I too think that rather than bash the lower market for what it does - that I would praise them.

I once stood up in front of my peers at a GIA Symposium on diamond cut quality and said that my greater concern is with the average quality diamond. The top of markets are not where the greatest gains are to be made - it is always to me about bringing the Salmon Roe to the masses, not the Caviar to the rich minority.

As some people have said in another current thread - they can pick well cut diamonds from table and depth %'s alone. At least IGI list crown and pavilion %'s as well. And is it better that people buy (oor sell) a certified stone or an uncertified stone?

Please remeber this is a very specialised premium focused forum and that many of you listen to music on sound systems and drive in cars etc that would make some people ill.
 
I definitely cheer when I see previously lack-of-information companies decide to try to start paying a little more attention to the basics of the cut....but for a company to label the stone H&A....I think they should be held to a higher standard. 'Ideal Cut' yes is very loose and can mean many things. If a company, any company, is going to term their stones H&A then I think they should be something better than just 'we think we see some arrows'. Since there is no definitive 'standard' for H&A, as others have noted on this forum in the past, unsuspecting customers may get drawn into the marketing and buy something that may not really be what it says it is. I think it's great that companies sell *better* cut stones (not even excellent, but just better than average) and sell certified stones. But don't term them H&A. I'm not speaking directly about Sams Club persay...but any vendor or company. Sell the better cut stone, but be sure to not mislead your purchaser.




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We all know that the vast majority of diamonds sold as "ideal cut" and H&A's do not measure up to the standards of many vendors who declare 'all' on these forums.

So why hold a lower market retailer up to the highest of purist standards?

Lesley i am just as unhappy about the AGS using a silly set of #'s to define 'ideal' as you and Brian the cutter are about the misuse of the term H&A's. But isnt it better to grow the whole market and be at the top of a bigger mountain, then to be all lonely on a little 1% as high hill
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lesley,




you wrote:


"I sign my company under my name"




of course you do, you are selling diamonds over the net.


i am not selling diamonds over the internet, i never take a booth during tradeshows, ect.


this is because i sell to & work with wholesalers who are suppliers to retailers like you.


example: "hearts on fire" bought many stones of my production. they are very well known & respected.


and that company is only one out of many examples.




i shall not disclose my company on an internet forum because i intend to honor my contacts who are your suppliers!


also, i do not wish to be overloaded with requests coming from consumer-level. i leave that up to you and this forum.


only you could do better when writing about others that are selling products similar to yours.


you wrote:


"My visit to Sam's was not intended to undermine your product"


you must be kiddin' me !!!


read your text again, the way you wrote about sams and their igi graded diamonds is called smear.


be careful; there are laws against that.


robbe
 
.
 
Garry does have a point. Wally World is trying to bring a better product to the low end market thru the "H&A" offering at Sam's Club.

And, Mara is right that unsuspecting buyers are going to be fooled into thinking they are buying something they may not actually getting. But these are the same folk who are not going to research and learn to make the best buying decision in their diamond purchase. This is the market that relys on marketing, less than knowledgeable sales folk, and their budget to guide them. There are many more of them than us out there.

Yes, Lesley, Robbe did post my pendant in the Photography thread. Many thanks to Brian for the really great pics he did for me!
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My problem with non-ideal cuts touted as ideal H&As is that it can serve to de-value the entire H&A term. Garry's point is valid, but if Leslie and PQ are correct, and Sam's is promoting these non-ideals as ideal H&As, then the average consumer is just going to think that there's nothing special about H&As and anyone who sells them for much more than a non-ideal cut is a rip-off artist. In this case, Sam's may not be bringing H&As to the masses so much as lowering the term H&As down to the masses--like some fast-food Chinese chain selling glop as authentic Chinese food, making consumers feel they are getting something special, but only serving to embed this warped perception of what Chinese food is.
 
There is no clear definition as to what constitutes H&A. Actually, there are a few different defintions, depending on where you obtain your information. Just as there are variances in the colour blue, there are variances in H&A. Is there a "true blue" ? Is there a "true H&A" ? It's all perception.

With that being said, how is it possible to hold anyone to a standard that is completely ephemeral?

I think the Sam's customer deserves a little more credit. If he's buying a diamond because it's being marketed as H&A, he has to have some concept of what that means. And if the Sam's diamond meets with his parameters, then he's not being fooled into anything.
 
As far as I knew, there are only true H&As and stones people call H&As that are not really.

I thought H&A was a standard symetry and cut that only those cutters licensed to can produce and market at H&A. Is this true?

I thought that "brand name" diamonds are just that, branded and a specific standard. And there are those that are marketing non H&A stones as H&A.

Am I wrong?

As for true chinese food marketed by a chain... There isn't any true Chinese food in the US that is sold to US consumers. Just ask a Chinese person.
American Chinese food isn't what they normally eat at home.
 
Because there are no definitive H&A standards...there is a huge gray area where people can easily slide and sell H&A when in reality many of the online vendors who are strict about their standards would not even consider them. Sure the online vendors may be 1% of the masses selling jewels, but I still feel that general Sams customer is being misled. It's just like a maul store with their Leo cut or something similar. It gets marketed, people get intrigued, ooh more facets mean more sparkle! They go in, they get the schmoozefest about the more facets, better cut--and come out with a stone they feel happy with and paid through the nose for. In reality, those facets don't mean a better stone, and the buyer just paid alot for something that probably wasn't worth the $$. But sure they are happy with it. They feel confident after what the B&M told them. I see it being the same with a Sams Club. If they are selling true H&A or at least a very good resemblance, fine...but if its sloppy or symmetry on the IGI reports is merely good...then I agree that lowers the other 'higher' standards and misleads the general public into thinking that their stone is as good as something like a HOF...hey that has Hearts and Arrows too right?




It's a tough call--I agree with bringing better cut stones to the masses so they don't shop at a B&M and get taken for a ride. Since there ARE no definitive H&A standards, its hard to hold anyone to them, but you've got all these other companies just jumping on the bandwagon--in the end it will be hard to differentiate just how the two are different. We will start to see people come on here going, "I saw H&A at Company X and then I saw HOF and why do they look so different? Aren't they both H&A?" In my opinion it furthers the misconceptions and problems consumers face when trying to figure out how to buy a well cut stone....
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What to do? Who knows..I don't even know if anyone is trying to set some standards for H&A usage like they did with 'Perfect' but over time the problem may be so large that they'd have to do something.
 
There is no definitive standard. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

The public will only be led where they want to go. They will only quaff the Kool-Aid if they want to drink it. The buying masses are not as ignorant as we like to think. I don't believe that advertising exists primarily to sell the consumer - it's there to make him feel good about what he's about to buy, or what he's already bought.
 


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On 11/11/2003 12:52:29 PM canadiangrrl wrote:





I don't believe that advertising exists primarily to sell the consumer - it's there to make him feel good about what he's about to buy, or what he's already bought.
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Hmm I don't agree. I tend to feel that ads work best when imprinting the brand in a consumers mind, rather than pitching something like a direct sell. I believe in the longer-term sell, I don't know many people who see an ad and run to the store. But the next time they are in a store, they may recall the ad. When I see an ad for something I already own, I don't get the warm fuzzies feeling validated.Maybe it's just me...but I tend to believe in using advertising to imprint your brand and name in the customers head...then hope that your ad was memorable enough to have hit a chord. Then again I'm not in straight advertising, so who knows!
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I believe the purpose of advertising is to elicit a favourable response from the consumer. It doesn't always translate into a direct sale, and it can in fact occur after the sale. It doesn't always influence purchasing behaviours. Sometimes it serves to merely reinforce them. That's what I meant by making the consumer feel good about what he's going to buy, or has already bought.
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I don't think there are completely definitive standards, but there are definitely standards. How many times have we seen a 'scoped stone claiming to be a H&A with broken hearts and crooked arrows? There *is* a difference between a non-H&A and a real H&A.

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On 11/11/2003 12:56:50 PM Chrisk327wrote:



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There isn't any true Chinese food in the US that is sold to US consumers. Just ask a Chinese person.
American Chinese food isn't what they normally eat at home.
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Heh, I'm not going to turn this into a food discussion, but there is plenty of decent Chinese food in decent Chinese restaurants--both of the aforementioned "homecooking" kind as well as something closer to haute cuisine that few Chinese cooks would attempt at home. Granted, these restaurants were developed for the ethnic Chinese population, but it's still here in the U.S.
 
[/quote]----------------[/quote]


Nice... Some people seem to know perfectly well what to do and some of those are right here on PS. Your conclusion, Mara, is that a brand is hard to defend in absence of market power. This holds true even if the respective branding rests on some provable qualities of the merchandise. Sooner or later, someone will do the same you do and, of course, there is the cost to keep the name afloat against the current. Things may get easier if one can demonstrate the quality of the merchandise in a persuasive way, for each customer, each time. The key is NOT to use standards: as soon as one is involved, someone needs to pay to inforce it (like the brand). For example, if people would still put diamonds in jewelry for their HARDNESS as oposed to sparkle(or ?) all sellers would need to do is hang a chart on their wall showing the exponential Mohs scale (some piece of public info, after all). But those times are gone (6 centuries past). Hope the idea is not all that fuzzy...I'm still working on it!
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A couple of thoughts from someone with no knowledge (hmmm, if my soon-to-be fiancee saw that, she'd say "what's new"
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)

First, and this should cause some flak, value is not an absolute. It's nothing more than supply and demand, both of which can be manipulated. If the general buying public is convinced that they'd rather have X than Y, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks of the absolute quality of Y.

Second, and relatedly, on the marketing/advertising, I think it cuts all ways: validation, branding and sales. Mara you probably don't get warm & fuzzy validation because you are an extremely educated consumer - knew what you were getting when you got it. But not true of everyone (dare I say most). There are some great psych studies done looking at people's opinions of an object based on what they paid for it. Generally, people need to justify their actions. Thus, for example, I'm sure most Robbins Bros. or Kay Jewelers customers would give them rave reviews and denigrate the on-line world, even though they paid more for an "inferior" product. On the other hand, the first place we went to look was Robbins Bros (long before I found y'all). On the other other hand (or is that a foot), everytime my fiancee sees a full page magazine ad for a platinum diamond engagement ring, that became the ring she had to have. (I just can't wait for it to arrive, so I can give it to her and she can stop looking).
 
The validation I'm referring to isn't so much about the warm fuzzies. It's a lot more subtle (even subconcious) than that. Serendipitous - I've read the same types of studies, but what I found most interesting is that the strongest validation keys were not tied into an empirical outcome. They had to do with more intangible outcomes, like perceived benefits, and the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" factor.

There are people out there happily buying diamonds who could give a rat's butt about the HCA, perfect internal symmetry, and ideal cut proportions. I would wager that there are any number of people who come here, read the tutorials & posts, surf the various online vendor sites, and then buy their diamond at Sam's. Their needs are different from those who seek superideals. The feeling I get sometimes on this forum is that the wants & desires of these consumers are uneducated, and therefore lacking in validity.

I am not advocating badly cut diamonds. But somewhere between the superideal and the piece of frozen spit, there exists a medium where a lot of people are going to find a measure of satisfaction.
 
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