ruby advice

[flutterby]

I know I want a ruby center stone for my engagement ring. We have looked at several, but it has been hard to find a natural one over 2cts. I was going to wait till my jeweler returned from bangkok next month with gemstones, however, she called me last night and said she had a 2.3ct natural burmese ruby she wanted me to come in and see. Since I dont know exactly what I am looking for, can you help and tell me the 3 things I should make sure to find or make sure to ask about it. I do trust her, I just dont feel like I know as much as I should.

Any help would be great!

Thanks!

 

[MINE!!]

Hey MsFlutter..
I know thaat there are some experts here that will be able to help you. I personally would ask if it was treated and how it was treated. Then I would look at it under all types of light. Inside, outside, etc. Do not be afraid to ask if you can see it outside or under flors. lights etc... Those jewelry store lights are sooo deceiving. Then.. make sure it ''speaks'' to you. make sure, make sure make sure!!!!!!!! If you see and think ''oh.. it''s .. nice.." then it is not the one. It has to be the one that you look at and think.... OH MY GOD>>>> that is just absoultely scrumptous and yummy... I would love to wake up every morning and see this stone on my finger...

Also... have you looked into spinels?

 

[flutterby]

I have not looked into spinels. I really want a ruby. Both my mother and grandmother had rubys in their rings, and although it wasnt their center stone, I really want to carry that on. Your spinel is beautiful though and part of the inspiration for the style of the ring I want!

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 8/10/2005 10:58:30 AM
Author: msflutter
I have not looked into spinels. I really want a ruby. Both my mother and grandmother had rubys in their rings, and although it wasnt their center stone, I really want to carry that on. Your spinel is beautiful though and part of the inspiration for the style of the ring I want!

I understand... You want a round ruby? Do you like the red red color or the pinkish ones? I am going to look around the net and see what I find (project! Project! LOL) Do you know about what mm you want? Sometimes, spread can make a mm larger, but have a lower carat weight...

IS your jeweler making your setting? Be sure you what want mm you want to fit in your bezel. My bezel would have oly been a 7mm but my stone is a 7.9 so I had prongs added to my ring.

I have a spessartite

in my ring. But I think that rubies and spinels are just scrumptous as well.!!!

 

[flutterby]

I know the stone is not heat treated, at least I am hoping so, because she knows I dont want a heat treated stone. I am hoping for about 8mm, I am still confused about ct size with rubys, they are alot smaller than diamonds! I just hope that all my reading has given me enough info to make an educated decision. Any advice on ruby purchasing would be great.

thanks again..

 

[valeria101]

Ruby over 2 cts sounds very nice !

My questions would concern treatment (probably there is some, make sure you know what exactly) and potential certification because the price has allot to do with that. Since I can't see it, well, looks is what matters first.

There must be some older threads about rubies around here. Otherwise, palagems.com does a nice job with their presenattion page, and you might want to take a peek at the 'samples' presented online by places like Checrrypicked, R.W.Wise Jewelers, Preciousgemstones, Awesomegems, Jewelryexpert, and Pala themselves (although they do not ist prices) and then Multicolour, AJSgems, Africagems... The range of prices is huge between these stores and for all the good reasons.

I wish there was a way to actually line up these things in person or at least under compatible photographic conditions, but in the meantime... just to save you from actually browsing those sites, these ones correspond to quotes from about 1k to over 40k. So anything goes. The range of quality and type of treatments is no less so. Not sure how to help, really.
Allot depends on the stone and some on the seller too.

What might help is to ask the help of an independent appraiser, if the seller agrees to some return policy. Online this is rather common, on the ground it remains to be seen.

Best of luck! Whatever you get to see, it can only add to your experience (not to mention jewelry box,if you so choose).

I surely hope you will pay a visit again to this thread with some shopping impressions

PS: if you are at all inclined to inspect larger spinels

against smaller rubies

both come from here. Vincent Pardieu (aca. 'Mogok') introduced this source.

 

[widget]

Hi, msflutter...how exciting!

Probably, what would be best is to take a reallly good look at the ruby, and then come back and share your observations and questions here. Then perhaps the experts can be more helpful.

I'm not an expert, but here are some of my thoughts:

Do remember that a "natural" ruby is not necessarily an "untreated" one. If in fact that over 2 carat ruby is from Burma and is unheated, then I personally would want verification from a well-known independent lab before I'd spend that much money on a gemstone.

Heat treated stones can be fine, but most experts and gemstone fans want to avoid beryllium treated, or fracture-filled stones. I guess any treatment would be OK, as long as you KNOW what you're getting, and are paying accordingly...

You'd want it eye clean, and crystaline...not opaque. I would expect the ruby (like most colored gemstones) to look different in different lighting.... try to see it outdoors, AND indoors but in natural indoor lighting, not just "jewelry store lighting". It will very probably look "better" in one lighting situation or another.

In the end, of course, your eyes and your heart will tell you if this is the stone for you.

Good luck, and report back to us how it went!!
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ETA: Fine rubies over two carats are very rare and consequently very expensive. Like everyone else, I'm a HUGE fan of spinels. While fine red ones are also pricy, they are a bargain compared to their equivalent in rubies...and they are always untreated.

 

[valeria101]

Aha! Good to see your post Widget... after that wonder of a star ruby

 

[flutterby]

Thanks for all the advice. I will tell you more after I see it in person Friday night. The jeweler asked me if I wanted to send it to GIA for certs, its $200... I suppose I will want to if I buy it, but just to look at it, is that a good idea? I am hoping to love it, just so I dont have to wait longer to get a stone. Hope I''m not setting myself up for heartache.

 

[widget]

I'll sure be looking forward to hearing how it goes on Friday....fingers crossed that it's the stone of your dreams!!!

When the time comes, you might inquire about getting it certed by the AGTA...they might be less expensive, and I'm pretty sure they're a lot faster...Also...another thing you'll have to decide is if you want to pay quite a bit extra for a "country of origin" report...

But first things first!!!!

Keep us posted!

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ETA...actually, I'm not even sure the GIA does origin rpts on colored stones....

 

[rubydick]

Date: 8/10/2005 7:01:48 PM
Author: msflutter
Thanks for all the advice. I will tell you more after I see it in person Friday night. The jeweler asked me if I wanted to send it to GIA for certs, its $200... I suppose I will want to if I buy it, but just to look at it, is that a good idea? I am hoping to love it, just so I dont have to wait longer to get a stone. Hope I''m not setting myself up for heartache.

The way you work the cert business is like this:

Exactly how is the stone being represented to you? You mentioned "natural" but did not mention treatments. In today''s gem market, treatments are everything. So if your jeweler tells you the stone is both natural and untreated, and after looking at it, you like the gem and can agree to a price, tell the jeweler that you will buy it, provided the statements from the seller (identity/origin) can be verified by a lab of your choice. In the US, in my opinion, the two best labs are the AGTA GTC (conflict-of-interest note: I work for the AGTA GTC) and the GIA.

So the gem gets sent off to the rock docs. When it comes back, if the jeweler has properly represented it (natural ruby, no treatments, correct origin), then you pay for the testing report and the gem. If it comes back different from how the jeweler represented it, then you either reject the gem (or renegotiate the price if you still want it) and the seller covers the cost of the ID report.

That''s the fair way to do business, and anyone who is doing legitimate business should have no problem with that.

While on the subject of rubies, you might wish to read the following two articles, which discuss the purchase of both ruby and sapphire in a general sense:

Seeing Red: A guide to ruby connoisseurship

Passion Fruit: A lover''s guide to sapphire

Let me add a few words on ruby. Fine untreated ruby in sizes above one carat is extremely rare. In sizes above two carats, the rarity goes up tremendously, and so does the price. To give you some idea, the per carat auction record price for ruby was long held by a stone that weighed just 4.12 cts. (the price was US$100,000 per carat).

Unless you or your hubby-to-be are party to a serious fortune, you might want to consider dropping down in size below two carats. And with fine ruby, shape is catch-as-catch-can. This isn''t diamond, there is no cookie cutter that cranks out shapes and sizes on demand. With ruby, you are dealing with an extremely rare creation of nature. Look upon it as a work of art as you search for something you can fall in love with. Rembrandt painted on a limited number of canvases and what we have is what we have. Mother nature created desperately few rubies. What we have is what we have.

In summary, when you find a fine untreated ruby you can live with, grab it. This will be something you will treasure the rest of your life, something your children and grandchildren will enjoy. So look with your head, but purchase with your heart.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 8/10/2005 9:51:38 PM
Author: Richard Hughes

Date: 8/10/2005 7:01:48 PM



In summary, when you find a fine untreated ruby you can live with, grab it. This will be something you will treasure the rest of your life, something your children and grandchildren will enjoy. So look with your head, but purchase with your heart.

Beautifully said, RIchard!

 

[flutterby]

Richard,

Thank you so much, that was all great information. I am hoping not to spend much more than $10,000 (as unfortunately we have yet to happen upon a large fortune) on the stone, so it appears I have some research to do and possibly some consideration of a smaller stone.

I appreciate all advice, and will keep you informed.

 

[Cave Keeper]

Date: 8/10/2005 9:51:38 PM
Author: Richard Hughes
:
Let me add a few words on ruby. Fine untreated ruby in sizes above one carat is extremely rare. In sizes above two carats, the rarity goes up tremendously, and so does the price. To give you some idea, the per carat auction record price for ruby was long held by a stone that weighed just 4.12 cts. (the price was US$100,000 per carat).
:

Is that for flawless grade rubies?

Since the price of a 9.35 unheated Burmese Ruby was more than $100,000 per carat and the price of the 486.52 carat Blue Giant Of The Orient was $1 million, both sold in May 2004, that means the air above 4 carats is pretty rarified. Another stone, a 27.54 carat Kashmir Sapphire was sold at more than $37,000 per carat. So the price of the best rubies are about 3 to 54 times the price of the best Sapphires.

I wonder what a flawless pigeon blood Burmese of the finest clarity and best shade which weighs 3 carats will cost.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 8/11/2005 12:31:34 AM
Author: msflutter
Richard,

I am hoping not to spend much more than $10,000

That should serve you well, I would think. There should be one 2 carat piece and a rather fine looking one for the cash.
... unless you are considering a museum exibit for a ring !

I would not pay that for Be Treated or garnet-like dark stuff, but the thing better be very red and reasonably clean. I would expect heated, but wish for absence of any other kind of intervention.

Just my 0.2

Btw, some of the nicer bits above match your price bracket and I have not even mentioned everything of this small, biased pool of online sellers I got to explore.
Honestly, I love this one

- for the cut and the color (as much as the picture and the color code given tell).
It comes side by side with a longer oval of the same 5k/ct and different shape and color

a bit havier (2.3cts) and larger and darker which the seller judged to be a bit less... It is a pitty to have pictures only to talk about though, but I could not help it anyway

Anyway, 10k should allow some options. And below 2 cts even more.

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 8/11/2005 7:25:38 AM
Author: valeria101

Date: 8/11/2005 12:31:34 AM

Author: msflutter

Richard,


I am hoping not to spend much more than $10,000

That should serve you well, I would think. There should be one 2 carat piece and a rather fine looking one for the cash.

... unless you are considering a museum exibit for a ring !

I would not pay that for Be Treated or garnet-like dark stuff, but the thing better be very red and reasonably clean. I would expect heated, but wish for absence of any other kind of intervention.

HEY!!!!!!!

 

[rubydick]

Date: 8/11/2005 5:50:17 AM
Author: Cave Keeper

Date: 8/10/2005 9:51:38 PM

Author: Richard Hughes

Let me add a few words on ruby. Fine untreated ruby in sizes above one carat is extremely rare. In sizes above two carats, the rarity goes up tremendously, and so does the price. To give you some idea, the per carat auction record price for ruby was long held by a stone that weighed just 4.12 cts. (the price was US$100,000 per carat).

Is that for flawless grade rubies?

Since the price of a 9.35 unheated Burmese Ruby was more than $100,000 per carat and the price of the 486.52 carat Blue Giant Of The Orient was $1 million, both sold in May 2004, that means the air above 4 carats is pretty rarified. Another stone, a 27.54 carat Kashmir Sapphire was sold at more than $37,000 per carat. So the price of the best rubies are about 3 to 54 times the price of the best Sapphires.

I wonder what a flawless pigeon blood Burmese of the finest clarity and best shade which weighs 3 carats will cost.

"Flawless ruby" is really an oxymoron. They generally do not exist together. Besides, those so-called flaws often make rubies and sapphires look better, not worse (think Kashmir sapphire here).

Colored stones are not diamonds. Let me gently say that again: colored stones are not diamonds. Diamond depends upon maximum light return for much of its beauty. But as a colored stone, diamond has a number of disadvantages, not the least of which is the high refractive index. Yes, call me a heretic, raise a rabble to demand I be burned at the stake, but I stand by my belief that a high refractive index is the death of color.

Think about it. What colored stone has the richest of all colors? Most would answer emerald. And yet the emerald is more than a little RI challenged.

High RI gems do return more light via internal brilliance, but they also deflect more light at their external surfaces (something we call luster). What can''t get in, can''t get out. And as my father always used to say on the putting green, if you can''t get it up, you can''t get it in.

Okay, I admit, a bad analogy, but anyway, color comes from within. Which is why the colors of metals are not very rich. They simply reflect too much light on their external surfaces, they can''t get it in and so it matters not that they can''t get it up.

So next time you look at a colored gemstone, put away your thoughts about diamond. Put away your thoughts about flawless, put away your grading certs that tell you in nonsense words and numbers what is visible only with eyes and heart. When it comes to fine colored gemstones, we are dealing with subtle aesthetic judgements.

Place yourself on a beach with your lover, hand-in-hand, watching the sun descend into a glorious display of reds, oranges, yellows and colors never named, defined or seen before or since. That is the experience of viewing a fine colored gemstone. Changes in view, light and mood produce radically different sensations. Rather than trying to define them and reduce such feelings to a set of numbers, perhaps we are better off simply riding the glorious wave, appreciating the moment for what it is, rather than trying to reduce the sunset to some arcane set of lowest-common-denominator numbers.

 

[widget]

Place yourself on a beach with your lover, hand-in-hand, watching the sun descend into a glorious display of reds, oranges, yellows and colors never named, defined or seen before or since. That is the experience of viewing a fine colored gemstone. Changes in view, light and mood produce radically different sensations. Rather than trying to define them and reduce such feelings to a set of numbers, perhaps we are better off simply riding the glorious wave, appreciating the moment for what it is, rather than trying to reduce the sunset to some arcane set of lowest-common-denominator numbers.

Brilliantly and poetically stated, Richard!!!!!! Bravo!!

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[flutterby]

Thanks again everyone. This day couldnt go any faster. I am hoping all goes well this evening at the jeweler. Otherwise I believe I will check into some stones from vendors online. I have really learned so much already.

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Poetry does indeed play a part in the appreciation of the beauty of a gemstones but before we rush to embrace the aesthetic anarchy proposed by my friend Dick Hughes lets remember that though the principles of connoisseurship may be deduced from the thoughtful contemplation of a single perfect gem, those princples do exist and have a direct relationship to a gem's value in the marketplace.

It is my experience that a neophyte when shown several fine gems setup together in a row, will almost invariably pick the finest without a moment's thought. But, if he or she never has seen a fine and beautiful stone, he or she will not have any sort of basis for a judgement.

The criteria for judging the beauty of a gems not simply "in the eye of the beholder", they are objective, definable and demonstrable and they correlate almost exactly with prices generally charged in the marketplace.

 

[flutterby]

So I went and saw the ruby tongiht. It was the most amazing one I have seen in person yet. It is 2.32 ct, 7.1 x 9.2 x 4mm. It was a true crimson color with lots of florescence. I am really excited about the stone. Part of me doesnt care how it comes back from the appraisor, it is so nice. Then the other part of me knows I dont know much, and it could all be in my head that it is nice, because I so wanted it to be nice. The jeweler is sending it to the chicago gem lab (???) to be appraised and identified as she starts on the wax for the ring.

As soon as I get more stats I will let you know..... Does it sound ok? i''m about to do a search for gem appraisors in the city, I opted not to send it to gia but just to get certs on it.

so ver excited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[widget]

Hi, Msflutter! How exciting! It sounds like you found your ruby!!

I hope an expert will jump in here and straighten me out if I'm wrong, but I wish you were sending your treasure to AGTA OR GIA. They are well known and highly respected labs, and in my opinion more valuable than reports from lesser known labs.

To me, it seems a little weird that your ruby is going someplace that does a lab report and appraisals...those are two entirely different things.

I personally think (again, just my opinion

) that a beautiful heat treated ruby can be as desirable as an unheated one. Either way, I think a rare and costly gemstone deserves paperwork from one of the better known labs...

Just my thoughts...and again...I am not a pro.

Anyway, I think it's GREAT that you've found one you love! If it all works out, I do hope you can post pictures of the finished ring, if not the ruby itself.

Congratulations!

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[rubydick]

Date: 8/12/2005 8:32:06 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Poetry does indeed play a part in the appreciation of the beauty of a gemstones but before we rush to embrace the aesthetic anarchy proposed by my friend Dick Hughes lets remember that though the principles of connoisseurship may be deduced from the thoughtful contemplation of a single perfect gem, those princples do exist and have a direct relationship to a gem's value in the marketplace.

It is my experience that a neophyte when shown several fine gems setup together in a row, will almost invariably pick the finest without a moment's thought. But, if he or she never has seen a fine and beautiful stone, he or she will not have any sort of basis for a judgement.

The criteria for judging the beauty of a gems not simply 'in the eye of the beholder', they are objective, definable and demonstrable and they correlate almost exactly with prices generally charged in the marketplace.

First, I want to thank Richard Wise for calling me an anarchist. Lately I've been hanging out in the "Around the World" forum and, after some of the beatings I've taken, it's nice to receive a compliment.

Richard and I both know what we know, and we agree with virtually everything (I love his book, by the way, and constantly recommend it), but when it comes to judging beauty, I really believe it is in the eye of the beholder. What Richard probably meant to say is that "the criteria for judging the value of a gem follows certain rough precepts." Perhaps I'm taking liberties here, but "beauty" is a concept that is generally determined by an individual, while "value" is something determined by a marketplace.

"Value" is a concept influenced by a number of factors, only one of which is "perceived quality." Consider fashion, fad, availability, market conditions, do you like the seller, do you need the money, did you get laid lately, yadda, yadda, yadda... In other words, "value" is all about a whole lot of things entirely unrelated to "quality" as currently defined by the current market (remember here: Enron was once a quality buy).

Which brings me back to my original point: when you purchase a fine gem as a wedding or engagement gift, it is not unlike choosing a mate. Be selective, consult the experts, listen to your friends, but in the end, beauty is really in the eye of the beholder. For it is you and you alone that will have to live with your decision. So follow your heart. Some might call that anarchy. Go ahead, call me an anarchist. I'll wear that scarlet letter to my grave.

And for the record, when I fell in love with the woman I am now married to, the woman that is the mother of my daughter, the woman I am still in love with, I bought her a small untreated Burmese blue sapphire. It might not rank as much in the grand scheme of things today, but it is important to the both of us. You see, in many respects, both beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[widget]

Hi, again Msflutter...

I just re-read your post and noticed your saying you''ve opted not to send it to the GIA. So please disregard my very unsolicited advice/opinions!

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[flutterby]

I hope I havent made a mistake with where I am having it sent. I had remember reading something about Chicago Gem lab on here.... It really was a matter of timing, I didnt want to wait a month to send it to GIA. Because then it wouldnt get back till my jeweler is in thailand. If this isnt what I want, I want her to find more stones for me there. I guess I didnt realize the difference between a lab and an appraiser.

Feeling a bit overwhelmed....

 

[widget]

Author: msflutter
Feeling a bit overwhelmed....

I''m so sorry if my impulsive "advice" contributed to this!!

Given your time constraints, it sounds like you''re doing exactly the right thing having it looked at by an independent appraiser before your jeweler goes to Thailand. Having different, professional eyes look the ruby is a good thing.

I just did a search for "chicago gem lab" and it was recommended by "cranky dave" a former poster who I think is a professional.

Lab reports (sometimes called "Certs" or "Certificates") grade gemstones and diamonds, but do not assess their value. Appraisers do. I did a search for "appraiser" and found lots of threads that might be helpful in sorting out the difference between the two...

Again, MsF...I''m so sorry if my admittedly layman''s ideas contributed to your feeling overwhelmed! I guess I got swept up with enthusiasm over your finding a wonderful ruby.

I do hope you''ll hear from a professional who will help allay any concerns my "meddling" might have caused!

Sincerely,
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[Sagebrush]

Dick,

I figured you would like being called an "aesthetic anarachist" it does have a sort of ring to it does it not you have my permission to use it to replace your current "Digital Devil" moniker if you so desire?

I guess to clarify, yes there is definately a distinction between beauty and value. However, the buyer is usually willing to pay the highest price for the most beautiful stone. Beauty drives price! And, there is agains generally speaking a broad agreement as to what is the most beautful and you can correlate that with the existing price grids.

In my book, I argue that there is an objective basis for the appreciation of color and that it lines up fairly closely with the gamut limit of a particular hue (Chapter 3, p 16-22). In short. the gamut limit of the color blue, the tonal point at which it reaches its most highly saturated is pretty much what the market considers the best color in sapphire. See page 22 of my book you will find the grid. Now I grant you these things could change but there is a pretty interesting correlation.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 8/13/2005 6:23:16 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Dick,

I figured you would like being called an ''aesthetic anarachist'' it does have a sort of ring to it does it not you have my permission to use it to replace your current ''Digital Devil'' moniker if you so desire?

I guess to clarify, yes there is definately a distinction between beauty and value. However, the buyer is usually willing to pay the highest price for the most beautiful stone. Beauty drives price! And, there is agains generally speaking a broad agreement as to what is the most beautful and you can correlate that with the existing price grids.

In my book, I argue that there is an objective basis for the appreciation of color and that it lines up fairly closely with the gamut limit of a particular hue (Chapter 3, p 16-22). In short. the gamut limit of the color blue, the tonal point at which it reaches its most highly saturated is pretty much what the market considers the best color in sapphire. See page 22 of my book you will find the grid. Now I grant you these things could change but there is a pretty interesting correlation.

Richard,

I just may take you up on that offer. Aesthetic Anarchist. Has a nice ring to it.

And as I said, we really do agree on this issue. Like you, I''m a saturation junkie. I''ve studied color for decades and there is a general relationship between gem quality and saturation.

For the vast majority of the marketplace, if you can separate out the other factors of quality, colored gems are all about saturation. Trouble is, you can''t simply separate out that other stuff. Like humans, gems are individuals; we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and each of us is put together in an entirely different mosaic. Thus while it is possible to generalize about general populations, IMHO, it is a mistake to generalize about individuals, be they people or gems.

The question asked here in this topic (and it is a frequent question in these forums), is what gem should one buy? We experts can offer general advice, but in the end, it is an individual choice. Nine out of ten gem doctors might recommend such-and-such and most of their clients may agree, but what if the individual in question rejects that choice? Should they simply get with the sheeple, vote Republican and then supress their own personal beliefs and feelings, just so they can take comfort with the idea that they are among the majority?

Again, beauty is an aesthetic judgement, something that is by its very nature, an individual choice. When an individual goes to select an individual mate or gemstone, what matters foremost is how that individual feels. And if the experts disagree? Screw ''em.

 

[Sagebrush]

Dick,

Yes, of course, the individual is always free to disagree with the prevailing wisdom. The price grids correlate with the currently perceived standards of quality - - and these may change.

What has impressed me over the years is the amazing unaniminity of opinion. I have, on many occassions, shown clients a small group of very fine stones and had them pick, instantly the finest gem of the bunch. Our relationship to gems is immediate and visceral not intellectual. I often compare gems to paintings but a painting is a cultural artifact a gem is a natural artifact. Connoissurs ponder the meaning of the Mona Lisa''s smile but gem aficianados only care that she has a pretty face and white even teeth.