Rookie rock buyer... please help!

[rossd]

Hi everyone,

First of all this site is great. I have no idea what I'm doing, and the knowledge/forum sections really reinforce that fact.

Second and more importantly, I wanted to ask some advice because I'm looking for an engagement ring for my girlfriend.

A friend of mine put me in touch with her and her husband's ring guy. The ring guy is her best friend's dad, has been in the business a long time, and is really nice and knowledgeable, so I trust him. But he's based in another city so I can't see anything in person, and again, I have no idea what I am doing. I am the kind of person who overthinks and second guesses even inconsequential decisions.

Anyway he sent me a report (please see pic). It says EGL, which I've learned from the forums to be a little concerned about. The HCA grade I got back was a 2.7, which also makes me a little concerned. (Before coming to this site, I had no idea how much more I could worry about this stuff).

Anyway here are the vitals:

Cut Very Good
Carat 2.11
Color H
Clarity SI2
Measurements 8.17-8.12 x5.10 mm
Polish Very Good
Symmetry Very Good
Fluorescence None

Total Depth 62.6%
Table Width 56%
Crown Height 16%
Pavilion Height 43%
Girdle medium, faceted

It says 8 hearts and arrows. Light performance looks like high side of VG for Brightness, low side of EX for Fire and Scintillation.

The number of specks on the clarity chart kind of freaks me out.

The price is 14k, which is kind of on my high end, but a 2+ carat rock for 14k is kind of hard to pass up (I think?). I'd be comfortable reducing size for a higher cut, clarity, or color and staying around that price.

Anyway wanted to ask for yall's opinion on the ring and the price... Or if you need more info to weigh in, can you please help me with follow-up questions I need to ask? I already asked to see a couple more reports for other rings just so I could have a basis of comparison... But I'm worried I'm missing on other major questions.

Many many thanks in advance for your help!
Ross

 

[Gypsy]

Someone will be along shortly to educate you on EGL. In the meantime please do a search of "EGL" and read the many other posts on the topic as it will help you greatly.

Since you are new, first: CONGRATULATIONS! Second, please start here... we need to get you boned up on a quick workable diamond knowledge base so you don't get taken: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/ I would follow that with: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/ and then with: http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/ and finally with : http://www.goodoldgold.com/Diamond_Videos/

Also make an appointment at your local Hearts on Fire dealer and tell them you've heard they are the best local resource for learning about the importance of cut with diamonds. LEAVE YOUR WALLET AT HOME (cause their pricing will set it on fire) and go and sit there for an hour and watch, listen and learn. Make sure you ask them to see diamonds of all colors from especially the following: D, F, G, H, I, J and also have them explain to you about the AGS grading certificate.

When you are done. You will be ready, grasshopper, and we will be happy to help you find the best diamond for your budget.

 

[Gypsy]

Also, we have heard countless stories about the friend of a friend jeweler. He may be a great guy but he's not your friend. He's a business man. And he may have the best intentions but may not be well educated himself. If he does well enough he's had no reason to bone up on cut quality and fire and scintillation, etc. Give us a week. Do what I said above, and if you still want to buy that EGL rock... do it with a clear conscience.

14k for a lump of coal? Not so much. If you are spending 14K lets get you the RIGHT lump of coal for your money. And unless ALL YOU CARE ABOUT is being able to say that the diamond is "2 carats" (and that could legitimately be your goal) then that diamond isn't the best one for you.

 

[crbl999]

EGL is known to be soft on grading and it is most likely that you will not be purchasing a true H&A H SI2. EGL is normally off a few grades on color and clarity. I would recommended sticking with GIA and AGS graded stones. Cut is most important and should not be sacrificed for size or color. Cut is what will make the diamond sparkle. I am sure the friend of a friend jeweler makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but I don't think he is doing you any favors. If you are going to purchasing sight unseen from this jeweler you might as well purchase from a reputable online vendor and have a better understanding and knowledge of the stone before purchasing (i.e. IS images).

This is just one of many that fits your budget:
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1425663.asp

As with all RB stones be sure to check to make sure it is eye clean to your specifications and request an IS image.

 

[rossd2]

I couldn't log in for some reason so now on my second user name... Thanks very much for the advice! I scheduled an appointment to sit with a Hearts on Fire jeweler this weekend so that should help with some of my main questions. Will update once I've had some in-person schooling and hopefully have another ring to ask about. The site and forum are really a great resource. Any other suggestions are appreciated!

 

[yssie]

My advice: do NOT buy from anyone you are unwilling to break all ties with should something go wrong. This is not a purchase wherein you want to be worrying about offending one party or another should things go awry or your needs change...

Some notes to get you started -

1. Decide what the word "eyeclean" means to YOU. Do you need to not see anything at all in the stone from 6" from the top? Are you okay if it's clean from 12", but not from 6" from the top? Do you need it to be clean from the sides as well? Then ask your vendor if the stone fits your specfications - different vendors have different definitions of 'eyeclean' that may or may not match yours.

2. This is an EGL-I stone. Assume that if GIA or AGS had evaluated the stone the colour and clarity would be lower. How much lower? We can't possibly say - there's no one-to-one correlation, EGL-I is not always 2 grades lower in colour and 1 in clarity... Only way to know for sure would be to have the stone submitted to GIA or AGS.

3. Assume the seller knows more than you about pricing. A 2ct EGL-I H SI2 will be much lower in price than a 2ct GIA or AGS H SI2. There is a reason for this, as Gypsy pointed out - if they felt the stone merits a GIA H SI2 EX/VG they would have submitted to GIA and now be selling it for considerably more. Even within GIA 2ct H SI2s, you might find that one is two or three thousand more than another - when the labs grade clarity they do it with a 10x loupe *only*, and some inclusions may be more visible IRL than others, even if GIA/AGS considers those inclusions equally "severe" under a 10x loupe, "better" SI2s will be worth more and vendors can and will sell them for more...

5. Date of report. Presumably the stone is a trade-in, and has not been sitting on a shelf for two years. As such, you will want to plan on an independent appraisal to confirm that the report represents the current condition of the stone (no nicks/scratches/chips acquired in the intervening years) - check out Neil Beaty's post in this thread [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraisals-in-detail.148839/#post-2692755?hilit=NAJA#p2692755']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/appraisals-in-detail.148839/#post-2692755?hilit=NAJA#p2692755[/URL] and this article by Neil and Dave Atlas https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond_appraisers_why_you_need_one_and_what_expect on what all the letters mean and how to find and choose an appraiser.



6. Lastly, and most importantly: go into it assuming the seller knows more than you, and plan to learn from him. You'll find out soon enough if you're wrong! It's really important to remember that PS vendors cater to a specific niche - not all diamond vendors do, and not all should! There is a misguided stigma on here about working with local vendors who don't provide ASET photos for every stone, but a professional with a passion is going to be a knowledgeable person and a good resource. If you like him and want to work with him, I would recommend chatting with him - tell him you've heard that EGL and GIA aren't the same, and ask him about it. Ask him what HE looks for when recommending stones. Ask him for samples of his mounting work, if he sets stones... find out if he's a good match for what you want to buy and how you want to buy it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

After being here almost 6 years, I can't recall any situations where "friend of friend" deals worked out in the purchaser's favor. Not to mention it can result in very hard feelings with the friend in the end. So I would thank them and tell them you want to look around and are not ready to buy (from HIM!). You get what you pay for, and that stone very easily may be a J or K color and I1 clarity. It is a little too deep (you want to stay at 62.3 or less or you may lose some diameter of the stone which affects the size appearance). You will not be looking at anything near a 2 ct. with accurate grading in your budget, but I would rather have a high quality stone, personally.

Looking at the Hearts on Fire will show you what a well cut diamond looks like. Then if you come back here, we can show you stones from reputable vendors that are equivalent in cut quality but MUCH less expensive. You may want to write down a couple of stones specs and the prices so you can come back here and compare. Many of us, including me, originally came here looking for some diamond education as we shopped for a diamond, and I eventually bought from a jeweler recommended here due to better quality and lower prices than I could find locally. And of course, I couldn't find a selection of ideal cut stones here anyway!

Good luck!!!

 

[rossd2]

Wow thanks! So much great information to take into account, I'm going to make some notes before heading into my meeting with the HoF guy this weekend.

Also I'm already getting the feeling just from email exchanges that the friend of a friend route is not the best, especially in a long distance situation. Thanks for the advice, will definitely be keeping my options open.

 

[rossd2]

Just to update... I met with the HoF guy today. Was definitely knowledgeable. First thing he did was a side-by-side look at an HoF diamond and another diamond. It was clear the HoF diamond had more light return, etc. When we looked through the little scope, the arrows on the HoF diamond were very clear, and the other diamond looked like a mess. So that was my cut lesson.

After the cut, the guy dialed in on color. He said he likes F and higher. I honestly couldn't tell the difference between E and G (ok, I didn't walk around the store in different lights), so I felt pretty comfortable with G. He showed me one that was an SI1 that looked good, so I'd also be comfortable with that clarity and higher (at least if I saw it in person).

He showed me a 1.04 F and maybe VS2, and it was already way over my range. 20k or something. So whoever (I think Gypsy) said leave the wallet at home was right. Actually I could have brought my wallet, because I still couldn't have afforded it.

I still don't have a great idea on the size. Once I disclosed my budget (14-15k or maybe a little more), that pretty much took me right out of the higher than 1ish carat category. I chickened out on asking to look at a 1.5ish size because the guy knew if my eyes were wide at 20k, I probably wouldn't seriously be looking at a 30k diamond there. I'll have to let him down gently on Monday that I'm gonna go elsewhere.

Didn't spend a lot of time on settings. They had one with four prongs, looked like Ws going all around. He also showed me a diamond with a square table but basically with a round-type bottom (I think? Called a "dream" cut?). It had a couple of side stones and was pretty.

Still I think the round solitaire is what I liked best, and I'll just have to browse some nice settings to compare with the 4-prong I saw today.

He said GIA and AGS were the two labs worth paying attention to. Didn't even bring up EGL, so that doesn't bode well for the first stone I was sent by the friend of a friend.

I'm going to do a search on the site and see what I like based on the different characteristics I felt comfortable with. Thanks again for your all's help. I'll post again soon with some ideas.

 

[Gypsy]

Just to update... I met with the HoF guy today. Was definitely knowledgeable. First thing he did was a side-by-side look at an HoF diamond and another diamond. It was clear the HoF diamond had more light return, etc. When we looked through the little scope, the arrows on the HoF diamond were very clear, and the other diamond looked like a mess. So that was my cut lesson.

After the cut, the guy dialed in on color. He said he likes F and higher. I honestly couldn't tell the difference between E and G (ok, I didn't walk around the store in different lights), so I felt pretty comfortable with G. He showed me one that was an SI1 that looked good, so I'd also be comfortable with that clarity and higher (at least if I saw it in person).

He showed me a 1.04 F and maybe VS2, and it was already way over my range. 20k or something. So whoever (I think Gypsy) said leave the wallet at home was right. Actually I could have brought my wallet, because I still couldn't have afforded it.

I still don't have a great idea on the size. Once I disclosed my budget (14-15k or maybe a little more), that pretty much took me right out of the higher than 1ish carat category. I chickened out on asking to look at a 1.5ish size because the guy knew if my eyes were wide at 20k, I probably wouldn't seriously be looking at a 30k diamond there. I'll have to let him down gently on Monday that I'm gonna go elsewhere.

Didn't spend a lot of time on settings. They had one with four prongs, looked like Ws going all around. He also showed me a diamond with a square table but basically with a round-type bottom (I think? Called a "dream" cut?). It had a couple of side stones and was pretty.

Still I think the round solitaire is what I liked best, and I'll just have to browse some nice settings to compare with the 4-prong I saw today.

He said GIA and AGS were the two labs worth paying attention to. Didn't even bring up EGL, so that doesn't bode well for the first stone I was sent by the friend of a friend.

I'm going to do a search on the site and see what I like based on the different characteristics I felt comfortable with. Thanks again for your all's help. I'll post again soon with some ideas.

SUCCESS! I do wish you had looked at H , because it is a great money saver and as someone who owns an F, used to own 5 G's, and now owns two J/K/L's (antique stones and uncerted right now) I think H is a FABULOUS color for getting size and color balanced. And once set you wouldn't be comparing it side by side with anything (so there's no comparison for whiteness) and it will look very much the same as a G in the sizes you are looking at-- unless you are SUPER color sensitive, which it doesn't sound like you are (yay! good thing for your budget).

Okay so... aIso think you should consider stones with fluorescence -- if you aren't comfortable with strong blue, I suggest considering stones with medium fluorescence because there won't be any negative effect and all you will see is a faint glow under a black light and other than that... it will just save you money!

So... now light return is where it's at. You want great light return.

Precision cut perfectly perfect hearts and arrows are great-- and if you want that we can ABSOLUTELY do it-- but slightly (slightly) out of perfect hearts and arrows can save you money and to the untrained or average eye will look the same as the perfect hearts and arrows version. That's up to you though.

So I'm going to show you stones I think you should consider and you can take your time and see what is out there in your budget and make some decisions.

 

[Gypsy]

IF you were comfortable with strong blue fluorescence (read up on Fluorescence https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence and then follow it with this thread [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-not-fear-very-strong-fluorescence-because-its-beautiful.141942/?hilit=fluorescence']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-not-fear-very-strong-fluorescence-because-its-beautiful.141942/?hilit=fluorescence[/URL] ) If you want over 1.5 carats I would suggest considering this diamond from Brian Gavin's Blue line:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=BLAGS-104054186010cence

WHY?

1. Each diamond is chosen by Brian himself and examined by him so that only the best ones with no negative effects shown as a result of fluorescence make the cut. So you get NO negatives guaranteed. So no milkiness (which is the biggest bad side effect) even in stones with strong blue fluorescence.

2. They are all AGS0 and have ideal light return and they are 'near' hearts and arrows (not perfect but just slightly shy). As a result you get a HUGE price break and the best light return in a diamond possible.

3. Price break because the market still discounts these stones.

That one stone is an F, eyeclean (double check this but I'm almost positive the blue line are all eyeclean as well) SI and at 1.55 carats for under 16K.

Alternative stones:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104052883001 1.3 H color perfect hearts and arrows for 15,000 (bank wire price)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8216/ perfect hearts and arrows G SI at 1.5 carats at 16,610 (bank wire price)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8672/ Another EXCELLENT deal. H SI 'near' hearts and arrows (you can see this, it's VERY slight) PUT THIS ONE ON HOLD IF YOU LIKE IT. No obligation but this one is an endangered species because it's JUST under 1.5 carats at 1.42 and it's 13,203 WAY UNDER BUDGET!!!! GREAT GREAT DEAL. You probably will NOT be able to get better than this one, trust me.


So these are some choices for you. As I said, I would put the 1.4 on hold NOW. We have lurkers and they stone steal before you can blink. While it's on hold you can go and check out the hearts on fire guy and ask him specifically for H color stones if you didn't see them today.

 

[rossd2]

Great, thanks Gypsy! I'm holding the one diamond you recommended - really nice! I'm going to head back out to my local jewelry store tomorrow to check out some H diamonds and different sizes. Much appreciated!