revisiting cutter anonymity

[Cehrabehra]

This is a post I made over 3 years ago... anonymity of cutters.

I would like to see who our public cutters are. I can think of three.
Brian Gavin
Paul Sleger
Bill Brae

But of these I only know for sure that Brian takes ordinary people off the street for custom cutting.

I would like to revisit WHY so many cutters are still reluctant to make their names known... I still believe in diamond as art and I think a signed piece is that much more inherently valuable as art.

And I would like to see a list of cutters who have given up on anonymity and revisit the reasons some still want to remain hidden away.

I understand that the vast numbers of stones that people acquire this would be irrelevant, but I think for some rare people or for some rare stones it still has enormous value. And really - any stone that you love can be special enough to be a work of art... I guess I''m just super nostalgic.

 

[kenny]

Two guesses: security and proprietary info.

GOG may not want to reveal which cutter is making those killer asschers or chunky cushions.
Their competitors might contact those cutters and try to get the same thing.

Security.
I imagine B&M jewelry stores have high insurance premiums for robbery.
A location that houses a diamond cutter may have lower insurance premiums than if they kept quiet about what is happening in that building.

 

[JulieN]

diamond cutting is not an art. it is a craft.

 

[JulieN]

People generally are not concerned with the identity with the craftspeople who produce consumer goods. it is only at the level where the lines between art and craft get blurred where consumers want to know the identity of the craftsperson.

When you get to the point where a consumer wants to know who cut their diamond, who cooked their food, or who made their clothes, you are getting to the point where a craftsperson becomes a celebrity. Most craftspeople don't do what they do because they have hopes of becoming famous, and I assure you, no cutter went into the business because he wanted to be a celebrity.

When you do see craftspeople putting their name on their product, or otherwise marketing and selling themselves, you have two possibilities: 1) compromising, shilling, or otherwise having to kowtow to the customers or investors; 2) doing what you want and then having people call you "difficult" e.g. Leon Mege.

If you produce enough product to successfully brand yourself, then that product had a lot of skilled people working on it who aren't getting recognition. If you really produce nearly all of your product, then production and brand recognition would be so low that your name probably isn't helping you sell anymore than you would anyway.

 

[hihowareyou]

I kind of agree with Cehrabehra.

What puzzles me is that with so many poor quality cuts around why more cutting houses (is that the right term?) or individual cutters who are highly skilled are not capitalizing on their skill but creating their own ''cut by x'' brands. Whether or not cutting is an art or craft seems irrelevant if there is a correlation between top cutters and top performing diamonds.

I like to know about the things that I buy. When I bought my computer for example I knew that while the entire machine was branded ''apple'' I also read up on the hards and knew that the processor was Intel, the display an LG panel, the HD by Fujitsu, etc. I knew that the parts were of acceptable quality by manufacturers with decent reputations so I was comfortable and I knew where they came from.

My diamond on the other hand is still largely a mystery and I know a lot more about mine than most people. I would love to know where the rough came from, who extracted it from the earth, who cut it, etc.

I suppose most people don''t worry about this stuff so perhaps there isn''t really a market for it.

 

[Lula]

Date: 9/28/2009 1:09:32 AM
Author: JulieN
People generally are not concerned with the identity with the craftspeople who produce consumer goods. it is only at the level where the lines between art and craft get blurred where consumers want to know the identity of the craftsperson.


When you get to the point where a consumer wants to know who cut their diamond, who cooked their food, or who made their clothes, you are getting to the point where a craftsperson becomes a celebrity. Most craftspeople don't do what they do because they have hopes of becoming famous, and I assure you, no cutter went into the business because he wanted to be a celebrity.


When you do see craftspeople putting their name on their product, or otherwise marketing and selling themselves, you have two possibilities: 1) compromising, shilling, or otherwise having to kowtow to the customers or investors; 2) doing what you want and then having people call you 'difficult' e.g. Leon Mege.


If you produce enough product to successfully brand yourself, then that product had a lot of skilled people working on it who aren't getting recognition. If you really produce nearly all of your product, then production and brand recognition would be so low that your name probably isn't helping you sell anymore than you would anyway.

I disagree with this view on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start. Suffice it to say that although diamond cutting may not be "fine art" as our culture defines it, one need only look at history to see the role that guilds played in elevating "craft" to a level that goes well beyond mere anonymous assembly line production

I absolutely believe that there is a large, and growing, number of people who care not only who cooked their food, but how the employees who prepared it are treated (and paid) and where that food was sourced, i.e., the "slow food" movement. This has nothing to do with celebrity, although, I agree, sometimes our media culture elevates chefs (or fashion designers or hair stylists) to celebrity status; rather, it has to do with a person's pride in his/her work, and his/her level of personal integrity.

I think the same analogy I made above about food transfers to diamond cutting. I agree with Sara that knowing who cut my diamond, where the rough was sourced, and the process that transformed that rough into a cut diamond is important and well worth knowing, and I'm willing to pay extra for that knowledge.

If our silly culture turns diamond cutters into celebrities, well, that's unfortunate, but I do not think it has to reflect on the integrity of their work.

I also understand when a consumer is purchasing a signature cut, such as GOG's cushions, that the seller of that cut may have a valid business interest in protecting the identity of their source; however, there are legal mechanisms, such as no compete clauses, that can be put in place to protect both cutter and seller.

To me, anonymity in sourcing and production of goods all too often serves to keep consumers ignorant about what they're truly paying for -- the mystery surrounding the diamond industry would be a good place to start! -- but also opens up the opportunity for all sorts of abuses from low pay, poor working conditions, and shoddy products.

Wow -- this was too much thinking for a Monday morning!

 

[denverappraiser]

I think an analogy may be available in the restaurant business. In nearly every restaurant, even high end ones, the chef is relatively anonymous to the customer. The ‘brand’ of the restaurant includes the entire staff from the parking lot folks to the accountant and although the chef serves as something of a celebrity in some cases, unless he/she is the owner of the place they aren’t interested in promoting that celebrity because that tends to limit their options. Even when the chef IS the owner they often don’t promote it because this makes it difficult to replicate the place. They can’t open a 2nd or 3rd joint without hiring a more generic food prep team to do the work. The result is a certain amount of restaurants like Wolfgang Pucks where Mr. Puck plays the role of management and branding but has no hand in the preparation of your particular meal but most go the route of completely separating the customer from the kitchen.

This whole issue is a question of branding and it DOES happen quite a bit in diamonds and jewelry. Hearts on Fire, Leo and Tiffany are a few names that come to mind as retail diamond brands but more and more retailers are taking on the role of brand promotion.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Cehrabehra]

historically what was the role of the diamond cutter? I remember that commercial years ago about shock absorbers and that guy in the back cutting that diamond (I think that''s when I first realized a cut *could* be bad lol) but looking back 100, 200 years - were the few prized diamond cutters anonymous craftsmen then?

I think that if you think along the lines that Garry was suggesting the other day, haute couture diamond business would almost demand to have a signature. Granted maybe in some of these rounds that are being mass produced and everyone knows exactly what ratios and proportions every angle should be at - maybe those have passed beyond art and could be almost machine cut (like the tiny ones).

I agree that most people don''t need to know this info (or want to) but I would love a pedigree on my stone... I would love to know its history.

So... you reminded me of that hearts on fire cutter that interviewed with someone on an early pricescope video... he''s not anonymous but I don''t think he works directly with the public. Is bill brae still around?

 

[Todd Gray]

Many times when I''m talking with a cutter and asking questions about a diamond in their possession which I''m trying to determine whether it is one that I want to bring in for evaluation on behalf of a client I''ll hear something like "Are you kidding me? Who wants to know all of this type of information? It''s AGS / GIA graded... It''s a beautiful stone, they either want it or they don''t! This is WHY I don''t deal direct with the public!"

And that last sentence might be the crux of why many diamond cutters choose not to be public... We live in different worlds.

But there is also the part of the equation which involves proprietary information, when a customer knows the identity of a supplier, some will attempt to purchase the diamond direct in hopes of bypassing the vendor - I''ve seen this in the past, it usually goes poorly.

I don''t know Bill Brae, but Paul Slegers and Brian Gavin are definitely not the norm as far as diamond cutters go, both share a passion for improving the diamond market through consumer education... Most of the diamond cutters I know are far less eager to discuss the intricacies of diamond cutting with their wholesale accounts and definitely would not venture into a realm like Price Scope. We are truly fortunate to have a few diamond cutters active on the forum to answer questions related to diamond cutting!

P.S. regarding diamonds cut by Infinity (Paul) he is able to provide insight into the weight of the diamond rough prior to being cut upon request, it''s kind of cool to be able to tell customers that their 1.03 carat diamond started out as a piece of diamond rough weighing 2.25 carats and so on...

 

[oldminer]

You''ll find most cutters look to their cutting wheel and not into a computer monitor during their work day. They are mostly anonymous becuase their nature is one of careful work on valuable items which require intense concentration and zero tolerance for error. They are usuaklly not chatty types, but more diamond geek types who are into their craft and not so much into people. This is an overgeneralization, but based on what I have experienced. Brain Gavin and Pau Slegers are unusual in their enthusiastic approach to business and the Internet. Bill Bray is more a traditional cutter with a much more creative side than the majority of other diamond cutters, yet he is not an active element with consumers. It is his style and is rather unique.

In the younger generation of diamond cutters, there will be more who come out of the back room and into the light of day. I don''t know any reason that they''d be held back except it takes years to be on your own in this world of diamond cutting. They may be texting eachother, but they are not cutting diamonds and surfing the Net at the same time. Change is slow in this very traditional world of diamond cutting.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Todd and Old Miner - I really liked your answers

 

[Lula]

So, Todd and Old Miner, I guess what you're saying is, we should cancel our plans for pitching our new reality series "Celebrity Diamond Cutter" to Bravo TV?!?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 9/28/2009 5:39:09 PM
Author: sarap333
So, Todd and Old Miner, I guess what you''re saying is, we should cancel our plans for pitching our new reality series ''Celebrity Diamond Cutter'' to Bravo TV?!?

bahaha - I was already programing my replay tv!

What originally inspires me to this train of thought are the unique pieces - the old school cushions and old mine cuts... the cut isn''t necessarily owned by the cutter. But for the cutters out there experimenting on the fringes, interesting things can be created. We don''t talk about it often - but the anomalies... the things that are so far out of the realm of what we look for we expect them to fail but have a unique beauty all their own.

 

[JulieN]

Date: 9/28/2009 8:53:35 AM
Author: sarap333

Date: 9/28/2009 1:09:32 AM

Author: JulieN

People generally are not concerned with the identity with the craftspeople who produce consumer goods. it is only at the level where the lines between art and craft get blurred where consumers want to know the identity of the craftsperson.



When you get to the point where a consumer wants to know who cut their diamond, who cooked their food, or who made their clothes, you are getting to the point where a craftsperson becomes a celebrity. Most craftspeople don't do what they do because they have hopes of becoming famous, and I assure you, no cutter went into the business because he wanted to be a celebrity.



When you do see craftspeople putting their name on their product, or otherwise marketing and selling themselves, you have two possibilities: 1) compromising, shilling, or otherwise having to kowtow to the customers or investors; 2) doing what you want and then having people call you 'difficult' e.g. Leon Mege.



If you produce enough product to successfully brand yourself, then that product had a lot of skilled people working on it who aren't getting recognition. If you really produce nearly all of your product, then production and brand recognition would be so low that your name probably isn't helping you sell anymore than you would anyway.

I disagree with this view on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start. Suffice it to say that although diamond cutting may not be 'fine art' as our culture defines it, one need only look at history to see the role that guilds played in elevating 'craft' to a level that goes well beyond mere anonymous assembly line production


I absolutely believe that there is a large, and growing, number of people who care not only who cooked their food, but how the employees who prepared it are treated (and paid) and where that food was sourced, i.e., the 'slow food' movement. This has nothing to do with celebrity, although, I agree, sometimes our media culture elevates chefs (or fashion designers or hair stylists) to celebrity status; rather, it has to do with a person's pride in his/her work, and his/her level of personal integrity.


I think the same analogy I made above about food transfers to diamond cutting. I agree with Sara that knowing who cut my diamond, where the rough was sourced, and the process that transformed that rough into a cut diamond is important and well worth knowing, and I'm willing to pay extra for that knowledge.


If our silly culture turns diamond cutters into celebrities, well, that's unfortunate, but I do not think it has to reflect on the integrity of their work.


I also understand when a consumer is purchasing a signature cut, such as GOG's cushions, that the seller of that cut may have a valid business interest in protecting the identity of their source; however, there are legal mechanisms, such as no compete clauses, that can be put in place to protect both cutter and seller.


To me, anonymity in sourcing and production of goods all too often serves to keep consumers ignorant about what they're truly paying for -- the mystery surrounding the diamond industry would be a good place to start! -- but also opens up the opportunity for all sorts of abuses from low pay, poor working conditions, and shoddy products.


Wow -- this was too much thinking for a Monday morning!

Almost no one is going to become a vegetarian for the sake of the environment.

Almost no one is going to eat at restaurants if the price of the food went up 400-500 percent to 1) pay the workers a "living" wage; 2) truly reflect the costs of food production.

Seriously, there was a reader who was offended at the cover of Food and Wine, showing the tatted arms of two chefs. Silly as that is, there are some people who still think chefs are clean, don't smoke, don't have tats, and work in lovely sunlit kitchens with birds tweeting outside.

There are few people who are willing to pay extra for the knowledge of who made their diamond, but the known cutters should be able to meet the demand of those few consumers.

And I never said that it is our culture that makes celebrities, and then celebrities MUST turn out less work. I'm saying that a celebrity cutter who turns out his best stuff CANNOT exist. What I mean is exactly what Neil said, with the Wolfgang Puck analogy.

People who want to follow a diamond cutter's twitter are romanticizing diamond cutting and diamond cutters. It is not romantic. Maybe celeb diamond cutters will happen in 10 or 20 years, but not now. I'm not saying it can't happen. But it is definitely not romantic.

 

[Cehrabehra]

It''s nice to see you again Julie - I love your food production cost reference - the vast majority of people have no clue about this.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I don''t agree that he can''t exist - I think there would be a natural supply and demand balanced with time invested and it would work out probably about where it is now lol Maybe more... depends on if the diamond designer is ralph lauren or martha stewart ("the good thing diamond" lol)

 

[JulieN]

Hi, Cehra!

If I may partially quote you:

Date: 9/28/2009 6:27:35 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
What originally inspires me to this train of thought are the unique pieces - the old school cushions and old mine cuts... the cut isn't necessarily owned by the cutter. But for the cutters out there experimenting on the fringes, interesting things can be created. We don't talk about it often - but the anomalies... the things that are so far out of the realm of what we look for we expect them to fail but have a unique beauty all their own.

Those parts that I've italicized is exactly what I mean by romanticizing. A certain amount of romanticizing is critical for the industry. However, that is ideally the job of marketers and retail jewelry people.

I mean, have you seen a picture of Paul? He's as geeky as you can get.

Not quite the man for romanticizing.

 

[Lula]

Huh? Julie? Slow food is not just about vegetables!

Where I live, there are is a group of locally owned restaurants who have joined together to support local and organic farmers -- not just vegetables and fruit, but also organic lamb, beef, chicken, pork.

The farmers are thriving, the chefs (some with tatoos and some not) are thriving. Several of these chefs are personal friends of mine. We''ve supported their businesses for many years. They pay their workers a living wage with insurance. Their prices are a bit more expensive than other upscale (local and chain) restaurants, but not 400 and 500 percent.

Several of the chefs in my small midwestern city have been featured in Food&Wine and other culinary magazines as models for the slow food movement.

But back to diamonds...

What I see is a change in buying habits from people spending money on mass-produced anonymous "stuff" choosing to pay more for quality -- whether it''s in restaurants or jewelry from artisans on Etsy. The internet and the recent financial crisis have made people more aware of where their money goes and to whom.

If this change in buying behavior spurs interest in diamond cutting and diamond cutters, I think that''s great -- we should all know more about how the diamond industry works and the role of the cutter in that industry. For too long, consumers have been buying diamonds without adequate information about what they''re really buying -- cut quality!! Again, the internet has been a driving force behind cut education.

It is possible to buy a quality product, know where it comes from and how it is made, and pay just a little more for that quality than the mass-produced schlock that''s out there.

I don''t see how this is a "bad" thing.

 

[beaujolais]

Agree with Sara P. on all counts.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 9/28/2009 6:49:01 PM
Author: JulieN
Hi, Cehra!

If I may partially quote you:

Date: 9/28/2009 6:27:35 PM

Author: Cehrabehra

What originally inspires me to this train of thought are the unique pieces - the old school cushions and old mine cuts... the cut isn''t necessarily owned by the cutter. But for the cutters out there experimenting on the fringes, interesting things can be created. We don''t talk about it often - but the anomalies... the things that are so far out of the realm of what we look for we expect them to fail but have a unique beauty all their own.

Those parts that I''ve italicized is exactly what I mean by romanticizing. A certain amount of romanticizing is critical for the industry. However, that is ideally the job of marketers and retail jewelry people.


I mean, have you seen a picture of Paul? He''s as geeky as you can get.

Not quite the man for romanticizing.

Oh I call pshaw! geeks are plenty cute!! I think we''re more interesting and fun in our quirkiness anyway! lol And we do romance just fine...

 

[elle_chris]

I just want a trusted jeweler/vendor. Don't care who they have cut my diamonds as long as they're pretty.

 

[Cehrabehra]

It looks to me that there can be seen parallels with our country''s gluttony and our country''s greed. AGBF posted this in another thread and it makes me think the system doesn''t really work as well as it could... where does the money go? I''d love to see a transparent summary. I''m going to read this article again... Diamonds Post-Lehman

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 9/28/2009 5:39:09 PM
Author: sarap333
So, Todd and Old Miner, I guess what you''re saying is, we should cancel our plans for pitching our new reality series ''Celebrity Diamond Cutter'' to Bravo TV?!?

You know, I don''t know... I''ve got friends who are glued to the fishing channel and I think that watching a diamond being cut is a LOT more interesting than that (and yea, I fish but I''m not going to watch it on t.v.) so maybe people would watch ''CDC'' on TV. Pitch it to the networks, one of our favorite PS Celebrity Cutters just might be game

 

[Cehrabehra]

Hey Todd - congrats on the engagement! I am really happy for you!

 

[Lula]

Date: 9/28/2009 7:34:21 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
It looks to me that there can be seen parallels with our country''s gluttony and our country''s greed. AGBF posted this in another thread and it makes me think the system doesn''t really work as well as it could... where does the money go? I''d love to see a transparent summary. I''m going to read this article again... Diamonds Post-Lehman

This article was quite disturbing. It''s sobering to realize how much effect (too often ill effect) our consumer society has on the rest of the world.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 9/28/2009 6:49:01 PM
Author: JulieN

I mean, have you seen a picture of Paul? He''s as geeky as you can get.

Not quite the man for romanticizing.

Hello Julie,

I guess that I can scratch you from my potential groupie-list, then

.

Live long,

 

[Lula]

Date: 9/29/2009 4:13:09 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 9/28/2009 6:49:01 PM

Author: JulieN


I mean, have you seen a picture of Paul? He's as geeky as you can get.

Not quite the man for romanticizing.

Hello Julie,


I guess that I can scratch you from my potential groupie-list, then

.


Live long,

Obviously, some people have never heard of "Geek Chic"

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

It is bad for my confidence though, just when I am about to embark on a rock-tour, visiting 6 Infinity-retailers and their customers

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Not that I would know, nor would Paul want me to know - but i think he would be considered a handsome catch by many women

 

[Fly Girl]

Date: 9/30/2009 5:56:24 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
It is bad for my confidence though, just when I am about to embark on a rock-tour, visiting 6 Infinity-retailers and their customers

Hang in there, Paul. I just got my invitation to see you on your visit here, and I plan to be there.