Retinoids: Do we love or hate them?

[Autumn in New England]

I am VERY conservative with botox. Like below minimal dose. I started getting it for migraines, and it eventually wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. Plus a neurologist injecting it makes your face look weird.

I rotate sunscreens but really don't even use them once a week and I need to. I was using some Lancome one for awhile, then sometimes I'll use Babyganics, or regular summer brands.

They call it "baby botox," I believe. You wouldn't even know people have add it, except their faces look "refreshed."

 

[tyty333]

@AprilBaby What's the highest level of retin-a? About a year ago I asked my doc if I could go up and she said she thought
it would be too much for me. I'm at 0.05 percent and use it almost every night. I'm thinking 0.5% is pretty low.

I never got into botox because I heard you had to have it done every 3-4 months. Just seems like it would add up fast over the
years and be a lot of maintenance.

I did do some filler (1 tube worth) about 15 years ago. It was painful...I think if I did it these days it would be multiple tubes.

I also read that lasers can melt the fat in your face and I dont have any fat to lose there so that is my concern with lasers.

I think between the cost and pain level I'm pretty much just going to have to accept that I won't look young forever!

So how many pokes is baby botox? I might be able to handle that!

 

[PastryGirl]

@AprilBaby What's the highest level of retin-a? About a year ago I asked my doc if I could go up and she said she thought
it would be too much for me. I'm at 0.05 percent and use it almost every night. I'm thinking 0.5% is pretty low.

I never got into botox because I heard you had to have it done every 3-4 months. Just seems like it would add up fast over the
years and be a lot of maintenance.

I did do some filler (1 tube worth) about 15 years ago. It was painful...I think if I did it these days it would be multiple tubes.

I also read that lasers can melt the fat in your face and I dont have any fat to lose there so that is my concern with lasers.

I think between the cost and pain level I'm pretty much just going to have to accept that I won't look young forever!

So how many pokes is baby botox? I might be able to handle that!

I have never had fillers, but I have had many, many botox injections. I did it for years for migraines, and now having it done by an RN who specializes in this it is nearly painless.

Especially compared to the neurologist who injected more units, in more places, and with a rough touch.

I'd guess that botox hurts wayyy less than fillers, I have heard this from people I know who have had both too.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Your comment reminded me of this clip (watch until the 1:24 minute mark). lol

First, I love Martin Short. Have you seen his special with Steve Martin? The best.

Second, I had forgotten about that movie (if I ever knew about it), but it is probably the most perverse thing I have ever set eyes on and I need to wash my eyes out with soap now. So of course I love it.

 

[Autumn in New England]

First, I love Martin Short. Have you seen his special with Steve Martin? The best.

Second, I had forgotten about that movie (if I ever knew about it), but it is probably the most perverse thing I have ever set eyes on and I need to wash my eyes out with soap now. So of course I love it.

Roger Ebert described that movie as follows:

"There is something extraterrestrial about it, as if it's based on the sense of humor of an alien race with a completely different relationship to the physical universe."

God, I miss Ebert. That is the greatest line ever written, including Shakespeare. If that were my movie, I would wear Ebert's review like a badge of honor.

Yes! We just saw the show in November!! I like Steve Martin, of course, but I too went for Martin Short. I utterly adore him. Do you watch "Only Murders in the Building?" Lurrrve.

 

[Crimson]

@Autumn in New England I am a skincare freak!
Have tried bakuchiol? https://www.byrdie.com/what-is-bakuchiol

Here is a more technical, systematic review that integrates the research on bakuchiol,

Applications of bakuchiol in dermatology: Systematic review of the literature - PubMed

Bakuchiol is a retinol alternative with anti-aging, antibacterial, and anti-inflammatory properties. Additional studies are warranted to better understand its applications in dermatology.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I use Skinceuticals CE Ferulic but that is about as much as I can tolerate. My other skincare is mostly Sulwhasoo and NIOD. I recently added Bakuchiol. It hasn’t irritated my skin at all!

 

[Autumn in New England]

@Autumn in New England I am a skincare freak!
Have tried bakuchiol? https://www.byrdie.com/what-is-bakuchiol

Here is a more technical, systematic review that integrates the research on bakuchiol,

Applications of bakuchiol in dermatology: Systematic review of the literature - PubMed

Bakuchiol is a retinol alternative with anti-aging, antibacterial, and anti-inflammatory properties. Additional studies are warranted to better understand its applications in dermatology.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I use Skinceuticals CE Ferulic but that is about as much as I can tolerate. My other skincare is mostly Sulwhasoo and NIOD. I recently added Bakuchiol. It hasn’t irritated my skin at all!

Korean skincare is all the rage for a reason... it works! I try to avoid the latest trends, but this one is solid. Yes, I used to use the Mad Hippie Vitamin A Serum, which has bakuchiol! I also really miss Vitamin C (I had to stop using LAA in the morning, because after the nighttime retinoid, my skin needs total nourishment). But I always loved it and the results are immediate. I tried derivatives (SAP, MAP, THDC, etc.), which are far more gentle, but they just don't seem to do much. Anyway, that Skinceuticals formula is supposed to be the best!

 

[AprilBaby]

@AprilBaby What's the highest level of retin-a? About a year ago I asked my doc if I could go up and she said she thought
it would be too much for me. I'm at 0.05 percent and use it almost every night. I'm thinking 0.5% is pretty low.

I never got into botox because I heard you had to have it done every 3-4 months. Just seems like it would add up fast over the
years and be a lot of maintenance.

I did do some filler (1 tube worth) about 15 years ago. It was painful...I think if I did it these days it would be multiple tubes.

I also read that lasers can melt the fat in your face and I dont have any fat to lose there so that is my concern with lasers.

I think between the cost and pain level I'm pretty much just going to have to accept that I won't look young forever!

So how many pokes is baby botox? I might be able to handle that!

.10 I think
I get Botox for migraine so I have. A smooth forehead but I have bangs so I don’t see them.

 

[ame]

That spot sounds like it could be perioral dermatitis and won't respond to much you're throwing at it unfortunately. But I would back off the retinoids to like every other day, and maybe not near that area and see how it goes.

Since losing weight I am less conservative with botox simply bec I need more now. I've done filler also which I dont think looks too liberally injected.

 

[Autumn in New England]

That spot sounds like it could be perioral dermatitis and won't respond to much you're throwing at it unfortunately. But I would back off the retinoids to like every other day, and maybe not near that area and see how it goes.

Since losing weight I am less conservative with botox simply bec I need more now. I've done filler also which I dont think looks too liberally injected.

I looked that up... the patch did have a somewhat bumpy, scaly texture. It wasn't quite as red or raw as what they're showing, but I definitely think you could be right. It's been a week now since I stopped the vitamin c, and as of this morning, the area is almost completely normal. So I'm guessing using the retinoid at night with another irritant in the morning was not allowing my skin to recover. Thank you!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Are you going in with the retanoid immediately after cleansing? You really need your skin to be bone-freaking-dry when you apply it — any dampness and it will absorb more deeply, causing irritation.**

My first several months (months!) on Retin-A, I had a whole BEARD of skin flakes. Maddening. Grotesque. Only thing that turned it around was waiting 45-60 min post-cleanse to apply the tret, and then waiting another 30+ min before applying moisturizer. Total and immediate 180 from crusty piece of toast to bodacious slip ‘n slide.

**IANADBIPOOTV (I am not a derm, but I play one on TV)

So... this was in fact the culprit. I'm so grateful you mentioned it! I had read about letting your face dry fully prior to applying the retinoid, and then giving that time to absorb before using moisturizer (although I thought that had more to do with efficacy than irritation... not so!). I assumed my face would dehydrate by waiting and that my issues would be exacerbated, but it's quite the opposite. I now wait a half hour after cleansing to apply the trifarotene and then another half hour after that to moisturize. My face is SO much more hydrated, bouncy, and supple. I no longer have that uncomfortably tight feeling, which had been going on since first starting 8 months ago. I have zero irritation for the first time, and just the tiniest bit of flakes remaining on my chin. But it's a 180* difference in just a week. I'm hoping to see even more improvement in the coming months. THANK YOU!!

 

[VRBeauty]

I just bought two tubes of generic retin-A at a pharmacy in Mexico, but of course I haven’t tried it yet due to being in the sun pretty much always down here. In fact, it’ll probably be a few months before I’ll feel comfortable trying it - LOL!

My mothere’s face was pretty craggy by the time she passed away at age 85. I figure those deep fissures are part of my future too, and if I get them, I’ll do my best to wear them with pride. But if I can find a way to hold them off a bit I will, and I won’t feel bad about it - after all, my mother was still looking for a way to lessen her wrinkles well into the last year of her life!

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I have no idea what they are. Following this thread I guess to learn

i thought they were going to be some weird and wonderful brown gemstone

 

[Autumn in New England]

I just bought two tubes of generic retin-A at a pharmacy in Mexico, but of course I haven’t tried it yet due to being in the sun pretty much always down here. In fact, it’ll probably be a few months before I’ll feel comfortable trying it - LOL!

My mothere’s face was pretty craggy by the time she passed away at age 85. I figure those deep fissures are part of my future too, and if I get them, I’ll do my best to wear them with pride. But if I can find a way to hold them off a bit I will, and I won’t feel bad about it - after all, my mother was still looking for a way to lessen her wrinkles well into the last year of her life!

As they say, the very best anti-aging treatment is sunscreen, sunscreen, and more sunscreen. We all hate it, but it's the very best thing you can do for your face. Good luck with your skincare journey!

 

[Autumn in New England]

i thought they were going to be some weird and wonderful brown gemstone

I would rather slather gemstones all over my face, TBH.

 

[AprilBaby]

I started using The Inky List collagen peptide serum in the morning now. I like how it plumps the skin reducing crepeness (?) retin a at night, inky for day and sunscreen!
Btw, my tretinoin is .1%, 1 oz tube from Derm and I pay out of pocket $38

 

[jaqjaqjaq]

Fillers & botox. I've heard great things about Teoxane and will be giving it a try at the end of April when I'm finished with my rosacea treatment.

What treatment did you get for your rosacea? I’m on my first round of IPL and I’m loving the results so far.

 

[jaqjaqjaq]

@AprilBaby What's the highest level of retin-a? About a year ago I asked my doc if I could go up and she said she thought
it would be too much for me. I'm at 0.05 percent and use it almost every night. I'm thinking 0.5% is pretty low.

I never got into botox because I heard you had to have it done every 3-4 months. Just seems like it would add up fast over the
years and be a lot of maintenance.

I did do some filler (1 tube worth) about 15 years ago. It was painful...I think if I did it these days it would be multiple tubes.

I also read that lasers can melt the fat in your face and I dont have any fat to lose there so that is my concern with lasers.

I think between the cost and pain level I'm pretty much just going to have to accept that I won't look young forever!

So how many pokes is baby botox? I might be able to handle that!

I do the baby Botox and love it! From what I understand, the time in between injections should widen a little as your muscles get accustomed to the Botox. I’m on my third round of Botox and get just enough to make me look refreshed - I can still emote and don’t look frozen. I want to say I get maybe 8 pokes for my crows feet, eyebrow lift, and in between my brows? To me, the pain is very minimal but I also get a lip flip which gently adds the illusion of volume to the upper lip and that HURTS! But the other stuff is only mildly painful, if at all.

 

[Autumn in New England]

I started using The Inky List collagen peptide serum in the morning now. I like how it plumps the skin reducing crepeness (?) retin a at night, inky for day and sunscreen!
Btw, my tretinoin is .1%, 1 oz tube from Derm and I pay out of pocket $38

That's a great idea... maybe I can do peptides (instead of vitamin c) in the morning and then my retinoid at night.

 

[AprilBaby]

The highest level is .10 and it’s tough but I was using your dose for thirty years so I can handle it but not every day. Btw, you cannot mix peptides with vit c. I didn’t read the label and put a hole in my cheek mixing them.

 

[Matata]

What treatment did you get for your rosacea? I’m on my first round of IPL and I’m loving the results so far.

VBeam Prima laser. Second treatment in 2 weeks. Noticeable improvement the day of treatment with increasing improvement over the past 8 weeks.

 

[SparklieBug]

@Karl_K This is the final "ask" for moving threads, please. This is another with good info, and I'd love to hear more comments on various products.

 

[Autumn in New England]

@Karl_K This is the final "ask" for moving threads, please. This is another with good info, and I'd love to hear more comments on various products.

Maybe folks would like to post their skincare routines... my current one looks like this. For me, everything is geared towards anti-aging and hydration. This is the most plump and bouncy my skin has ever been.

Daily

~Cleanse with CeraVe hydrating foaming oil cleanser. It's not a true oil cleanser, but it's the most gentle one they have that actually cleanses.
~Damp (plain) konjac sponge to gently exfoliate.
~CeraVe hydrating toner. I switched the top to a pump, and use one pump which I apply with my hands.
~The Ordinary hyaluronic 2% + B5 (with ceramides). I apply immediately after toner while face is still damp, and then mist it again with water... wait 5 minutes.
~The Ordinary multi-peptide + copper peptides 1% serum. Pat it in and wait 5 minutes.
~HaruHaru Wonder black rice moisture airyfit daily sunscreen. I reallllllly prefer Korean sunscreens. They have much more advanced organic filters than what is approved here in the US (we're SO behind the times in that regard). They're elegant and nourishing without being greasy or leaving a white cast. This one is so moisturizing, I don't need anything else. Works fabulously under makeup as well. Some folks swear by the Beauty of Joseon one, which is also good, but I like this one better.

Nightly

~Double cleanse with organic sunflower seed oil. Massage into skin for a minute, remove with a warm washcloth. This takes all of your makeup and sunscreen off. Then I go in with the CeraVe hydrating foaming oil cleanser.
~CeraVe hydrating toner. I switched the top to a pump, and use one pump which I apply with my hands.
~The Ordinary hyaluronic 2% + B5 (with ceramides). I apply while face is still damp from toner, and then mist it again with water... wait 30 minutes. My face has to be COMPLETELY, BONE dry in order to apply my retinoid. Until I figured this out, I had endless flaking and irritation.
~Trifarotene. This is a 4th generation retinoid, and my dermatologist prefers it to tretinoin. Because it's highly selective and only targets retinoic acid receptor gamma RAR-γ (87% of receptors found in the skin), it is far less harsh and just as effective. I use it everyday and all around my eyes. Wait 30 minutes.
~CeraVe skin renewing night cream. This is THE best night cream I have EVER used. And to give you an idea of how much I love this $17/1.7oz cream, I used to use a $305/1.7oz one that cannot compare.
~I will often mini "slug," especially during the winter. I use a small pea-sized amount of Vaseline to top off my nighttime routine, and press it in. I know some people who use an entire teaspoon! That's not for me, sorry.

Weekly

Two times per week, I whip up THE most hydrating/rejuvenating mask you've ever experienced in your life. I mix equal parts (1/4 tsp) of the following:

~Raw, organic honey
~Colloidal oatmeal powder
~100% pure organic aloe vera
~Glycerin
~One dropper full of an organic vitamin E oil blend

I wash my face and pat it dry/leave it damp. I apply mixture with a fan brush, then I take a disposable sheet mask (like these), wet it, and apply it over the mask. This keeps it moist the entire time, so the skin can really drink up all that goodness. I leave it on for 30 minutes. Then I rinse (well!) with warm water. You can also use CeraVe hydrating cream cleanser to remove any excess residue (don't use anything that will strip away the hydration you just added). That cleanser doesn't really clean well, so it's perfect. lol

With regard to botox, fillers, and other injectables, I don't think they're for me. I've seen some folks who've had great success and others who have not. But I would definitely look into laser treatments/RF microneedling and that sort of thing in the future.

I'd love to hear other people's routines!

 

[Tartansparkles]

@Autumn in New England how are you using the Ordinary hyaluronic acid? I tried it and still have most of the bottle but I gave up because I felt that it left my skin feeling tight and/or sticky so I figured I wasn't using it quite right.

 

[Autumn in New England]

@Autumn in New England how are you using the Ordinary hyaluronic acid? I tried it and still have most of the bottle but I gave up because I felt that it left my skin feeling tight and/or sticky so I figured I wasn't using it quite right.

Do you live in a very dry climate? That could be part of the issue... we have a lot of moisture in the air here on the coast. If the air is dry, and you don't give the HA enough moisture to bind to the skin (it can hold 1,000 times its weight in water), it will start pulling moisture from deeper in the dermis, and that can have a reverse, drying effect.

So, HA serum has absolutely transformed my skin, but it took some time to get my application right. By applying it with the CeraVe hydrating toner on damp skin, it mitigates that tight feeling you mentioned (any hydrating/alcohol-free toner will do). Then I use a spray bottle with distilled water and mist that all over my face. I give it at least 5 minutes to do its thing before going to the next step. You'll often read to apply HA to damp skin, but I mist my face until it's quite moist - just short of any dripping or flooding. And then you always need to top it with a good moisturizer, preferably one that has some occlusive properties. Mine has shea butter.

I should also describe my skin... it's dehydrated and prone to irritation due to the retinoid. But I do not have dry skin. In fact, my skin is fairly oily, which is why everything I've included here is non-comedogenic and acne-safe.

Does this help?

 

[SparklieBug]

~HaruHaru Wonder black rice moisture airyfit daily sunscreen. I reallllllly prefer Korean sunscreens. They have much more advanced organic filters than what is approved here in the US (we're SO behind the times in that regard). They're elegant and nourishing without being greasy or leaving a white cast. This one is so moisturizing, I don't need anything else. Works fabulously under makeup as well. Some folks swear by the Beauty of Joseon one, which is also good, but I like this one better.

I also love Korean sunscreens! Thanks for the tip for the HaruHaru Wonder product. I've been using Joseon's Relief Sun Aqua-Fresh : Rice + B5 (SPF50+ PA++++) and love it. When I run out, I'll try some HaruHaru. It may take a while, as I just received two containers of it. With skincare products, it's a challenge for me to finish product when I see something new n' shiny to try...like HaruHaru sunscreen. LOL!

Your routine is impressive. Waiting for 30 minutes between products would cause me to start the night routine at about 6:00pm.

I'd love to try your mask recipe, so will gather up ingredients and give it a whirl. Thank you!

 

[Autumn in New England]

I also love Korean sunscreens! Thanks for the tip for the HaruHaru Wonder product. I've been using Joseon's Relief Sun Aqua-Fresh : Rice + B5 (SPF50+ PA++++) and love it. When I run out, I'll try some HaruHaru. It may take a while, as I just received two containers of it. With skincare products, it's a challenge for me to finish product when I see something new n' shiny to try...like HaruHaru sunscreen. LOL!

Your routine is impressive. Waiting for 30 minutes between products would cause me to start the night routine at about 6:00pm.

I'd love to try your mask recipe, so will gather up ingredients and give it a whirl. Thank you!

I know... I have to really restrain myself from always wanting to try the next best thing! Don't let the influencers influence. lol But sunscreens are one of those things where I allow myself to dabble. It's SO difficult to find one that ticks all the boxes, and they're always improving. I'm open to new suggestions anytime in that respect. I've tried just about every SPF "under the sun."

Yes, my night routine takes about an hour! It's only because of the annoying retinoid. I have to wait a half hour before and after. I used to only wait 5 minutes, but always had severe irritation/flaking. I think someone here actually told me to wait longer, because damp skin intensifies the retinoid. Now I have zero issues! So if anyone is having troubling acclimating like I was, that could be the culprit.

Let me know if you need any specific suggestions on the mask products! I can tell you the exact ones I buy.

 

[Ally T]

I love retinol. I have been having baby Botox for 18 months, administered by facial reconstructive surgeon who does private aesthetics once a month. Nobody has ever asked but my frown lines have gone & hooded eyelids ever so slightly lifted, so refreshed is definitely the word I use (I’m 51) & people always tell me how well I look & how I’m aging gracefully.

I have always, always looked after my skin & I have no enlarged pores or areas of particular concern. I started with retinol about 3 years ago. However I was experiencing some brown age spots to my temples & nose area.

About 6 weeks ago I switched to a new regime & my skin is just transformed & I never realised it needed transforming! I now in the morning gel cleanse, use an acid 3 times a week after this but daily I follow the cleanse with an antioxidant, then eye cream, moisturiser & SPF30.

In the evening I double cleanse (balm & then cream) to removed all makeup etc, retinol, support oil, eye cream & moisturise.

It’s a faff & took some getting used to, but now I can ace it pretty quickly. My skin is literally glowing, the tiny brown age spots are definitely less noticeable & I had a couple of slightly red areas on my cheeks (peri related) that have almost gone.

All I need to do now is work on my saggy jowls

 

[foxinsox]

I’m all in on the Korean skincare too.
I don’t double cleanse - just a warm facecloth morning and night. I’ll use micellar water if I’ve worn foundation but currently I’m just using a highlighter mixed in with my sunscreen.
Morning is Mizon vegan peptide booster, Numbuzin vitamin toner, a kojic acid serum (can’t remember the brand), Tiam bakuchiol, Mizon peptide booster and either the Beauty of Joseon Aqua-Fresh sunscreen or a Japanese Rohto one.
Evening is the same except for no sunscreen and adds in a Mizon copper peptide cream.
Mizon’s been on sale a bit recently and my skin seems to really like it. It’s very much brighter and glowier for want of a better term.

 

[kenny]

I don't know what a facial retinoid is, but if it's a hemorrhoid on one's face I'd hate them.