Response to Kenny's Gen Y article

[msop04]

Hi,

I think some of you are missing an important point. Its something that America is proud of. It an 'increase in the standard of living that has occurred in the 2oth century. Nothing to sneeze at in my book. In general the populace felt 2cars, 2 bathrooms, good central heat, all the comforts of home were a good thing. I'm with Alan Greenspan and want to call the yrs around 2000 as the "age of exuberance".

Credit cards, the availability of loans (easy credit) is one of the problems. All those handbags, clothes, designer stuff you all have could probably pay for your education. The question now is can this be sustainable. His questions on GDP growth are interesting. Why not limit population growth so there are enough jobs for all who are here. Refuse to allow all these student loans. People who want something usually find a way.

I don't blame our writer for being mad. He works hard, he seems like a decent human being. He certainly doesn't want to be called a snowflake(Ilove the term) and entitled. The media and gov't spokesmen all use the word entitlement over and over again. The world has changed and they must also change, but they were taught , the same as you and me, that their prospects were good. Now they do realize that life is tougher out there than they had been led to believe. I would be mad too.


Annette

I do agree with you on the student loan part and that those who want something will find a way...

However, the author knew that his chosen major wouldn't pay a lot, so I don't understand why he's so mad. It's simple math. If your college of choice costs $$$$$ and you'll only be making $$, then you will be subject to "ballooning debt" and may feel poor, despite how hard you work. No one questioned his work ethic, and quite honestly, I don't understand what that has to do anything. This idea of "if I work really hard, then everything will pay off" will only be true to those whose career pays "enough" to make ends meet or a lot more than that! Did the author really think he was gonna get rich in journalism? I mean, what did he expect would happen? Did he think he would just land a job that would pay vastly more than what most in his profession make? Although it could happen, it's highly unlikely and certainly not right away... In my opinion, the only person responsible for his poor financial choices is himself. Get with the program and out of the clouds. The reality is there, regardless of what he was "led to believe," and he should've paid attention. Anyone can go online and figure out the average pay of pretty much any field and have a general idea of what to expect. I feel that he should accept responsibility for his lack of research regarding the reality of how much he'd be making vs. the debt he would acquire. Sounds like he chose what he loved, but didn't bother to think of the financial reality of his choice.

I really don't mean that to be harsh and without sympathy entirely, but damn... your parents and/or society can tell you all day that you'll be a superstar and everything will be ok if you just work hard enough, but it's your responsibility to take a look at the reality of it all to figure out if that's the case for your chosen career. There's nothing wrong with doing what you love, but don't be ticked off that you may not be able to work the dream job that you love AND that pays the bills or afford your desired lifestyle. That's just part of trying to be a responsible adult. I hated every minute of pharmacy school. It was very difficult and I suffered many ulcers, migraines, and anxiety while there... I'm not just head over heels in love with my job, but I'm content and I knew how I wanted to live and the lifestyle I wanted to maintain... so I chose a career that would allow me to have it, which made all the misery worth it to me. Sometimes life's a trade-off... welcome to reality.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I don't know of any 18 yr old that is as visionary as you think they should be. First, one goes to school to find what they think they might want to be. So they try out different courses to see what fits. Most don't come to college knowing and calculating how their future will be spent. They are supposed to be exposed to different avenues of learning. The last two yrs you pick a major and hope your decision is right.

Often those of you who have had a hard time want everyone to have a hard time. In fact, I smiled, because, in the end our msop wants us to know, how hard she had it, anxiety, headaches, worry, and because she made sacrifices for something she hated, she thinks everyone should do that. Me, I hope our writer wins a pulitizer prize for something. He certainly conveyed his anger well.

I am not like you msop. I appreciate that you worked hard and sacrificed for your future. I just give him accolades for pursuing what he thought was good at the time. I am not looking for everyone to have a hard time of life because I may have. They do however have to adjust to the new reality.


Annette

 

[blackprophet]

Full Disclosure: I'm a Gen Yer (I think! '81 here)

However, the author knew that his chosen major wouldn't pay a lot, so I don't understand why he's so mad.

Hes mad because he's called entitled for complaining at all.
If you say any of the following:
"Man its hard to get a job, no full time employment"
"No one offers a pension, and who knows what will happen to the ones that are offered"
"Man wages in XXX field have gone down"
"Man tuition is expensive"
You are written off as having too high expectations and being entitled. All of those quotes are realities of life today, but if you mention them as a millenial, you are entitled. People in my parents generations are dealing with these realities (execpt the tuition thing! lol), and if they complain it would be valid. But for some reason, because I'm in my 30's it is invalidated. "Shouldve known better, you want too much, you dont want to work hard" are the responses. He's basically saying that these are legitimate concerns and he should be able to say them and be engaged in the conversation. If you read the article again, he never said he expected to do better, he just said his position is tough. He worked/works hard and wishes things were better. But when he's says that hes told he's entitled. As some of you have said that he is.

Its also said we expect things too fast. I don't know anyone my age who wants to live in a 4 bedroom 4 bathroom house, let alone thinks they should be able to afford one. I agree there are people our age who are entitled, and there are parents that enable that behaviour. But I don't think it is the majority, or even a significant part of our generation. In my area condo sales are booming because of millenials. The large houses are being bought by boomers.

I would also like to echo what someone said about you don't know what the person is like going in so you can't assume what they will be like going out. Not everyone is in the position where they can go to school and not take loans. Many people have to. So should they not go to school? I don't think that is the answer.

 

[msop04]

I don't know of any 18 yr old that is as visionary as you think they should be.

It hardly takes a visionary to get online and see what their career path entails. I mean, if they're gonna pay their institution of choice a boat load of cash, I'd think that would be one of the first steps, no? Is that not common sense? Maybe some of the blame should be placed on the parents or high schools for not discussing the importance of this and what it means to their lives? If they didn't have a clue prior to said discussion, at least they'd have been talked to at some point.

First, one goes to school to find what they think they might want to be.

There is nothing wrong with being unsure of which career is right for you, so if a student has no idea what they'd like to go into or is even unsure, then it would probably behoove them to choose a less expensive school until they can figure it out... at the end of the day,they will be responsible for paying for the time of indecision, so it would make sense to try not to accumulate so much debt during the process. This is just the reality of it. <shrugs>

So they try out different courses to see what fits. Most don't come to college knowing and calculating how their future will be spent. They are supposed to be exposed to different avenues of learning. The last two yrs you pick a major and hope your decision is right.

I agree with you on this for the most part... That said, students need to understand that time really is money, and their decisions need to be thought out a lot more than, "Wow that job sounds cool!" <---- before someone gets their panties in a bunch, this example is meant to be funny However, this is a serious matter -- just look how unhappy the author is! More planning and less hoping things will just work out might have been the better idea. It's one thing to have unexpected and unfortunate things happen, but failure to do your part is another. It's your life - how about taking a little more responsibility?

Often those of you who have had a hard time want everyone to have a hard time. In fact, I smiled, because, in the end our msop wants us to know, how hard she had it, anxiety, headaches, worry, and because she made sacrifices for something she hated, she thinks everyone should do that. Me, I hope our writer wins a pulitizer prize for something. He certainly conveyed his anger well.

I don't want anyone to have a "not fun" experience because I did -- I knew what I was getting myself into! I chose this for me, no one else. Some don't want to go that route, some do... whatever floats your boat. My whole point of expressing my experience was to say that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Imagine the "hard time" these students will have after they've graduated and have not way of paying back the huge loans they were allowed to accumulate??... Now THAT would be a real "hard time."

And, yes, the author did express his anger. Maybe he'll indeed win an award -- hopefully one with a monetary prize to help pay for the life and loans he can't afford.

I am not like you msop. I appreciate that you worked hard and sacrificed for your future. I just give him accolades for pursuing what he thought was good at the time. I am not looking for everyone to have a hard time of life because I may have. They do however have to adjust to the new reality.


Annette

I understand what you mean, Annette... I just feel that if he'd done a little (or any) research he wouldn't be so shocked and disappointed by the outcome is all. I don't think anyone wants others to suffer, which is why it bothers me that we allow very young adults to take on HUGE loans with no regulation when, as you mentioned, they are not mature enough to be responsible with that kind of money, nor do they seem to understand that it will have to be paid back one day. It's not "free money" -- it must be paid back, and the student's expected salary should be taken into consideration for the maximum amount when applying for a loan. Change majors? it happens all the time... just understand that since you changed you mind, you will most likely have to pay more.

 

[msop04]

Full Disclosure: I'm a Gen Yer (I think! '81 here)

However, the author knew that his chosen major wouldn't pay a lot, so I don't understand why he's so mad.

Hes mad because he's called entitled for complaining at all. Everyone I know complains about their student loans, but it is what it is -- ya gotta understand that you have to pay 'em back, regardless...
If you say any of the following:
"Man its hard to get a job, no full time employment" - fair enough, job market isn't as good as it once was...
"No one offers a pension, and who knows what will happen to the ones that are offered" - I understand this, as I have to plan my own retirement. It sucks. I'd rather have a retirement provided/matched by my company, but that's not happening as much anymore.
"Man wages in XXX field have gone down" -- this could definitely be a reality, but could they have dropped that much? Is journalism something that goes from "a little something" to "almost nothing"? This isn't rhetorical, I'm really asking...
"Man tuition is expensive" - did he think the amount he borrowed would somehow be less than the original loan before he was expected to pay it back? I don't get this.

You are written off as having too high expectations and being entitled. All of those quotes are realities of life today, but if you mention them as a millenial, you are entitled. People in my parents generations are dealing with these realities (execpt the tuition thing! lol), and if they complain it would be valid. But for some reason, because I'm in my 30's it is invalidated. "Shouldve known better, you want too much, you dont want to work hard" are the responses. <---I agree, it makes no sense for someone to say this...

He's basically saying that these are legitimate concerns and he should be able to say them and be engaged in the conversation. If you read the article again, he never said he expected to do better, he just said his position is tough. He worked/works hard and wishes things were better. But when he's says that hes told he's entitled. As some of you have said that he is. There is nothing wrong with wishing things were better. In this day and age in America, I would imagine most feel this way... but you can wish in one hand and, well... you know how that ends. Not to make light of his situation -- it sounds like he is really struggling. All I was saying is that he went into this career knowing (and if he didn't, then shame on him) what to expect as far as pay... Doesn't mean it makes him "entitled" just to complain, as it's clear he expected a lot better -- I just don't know why he thought he'd do so much better than any other person in his field? I think this may go back to the whole "special" idea mentioned in the first article. It's known that journalism careers are dog-eat-dog and not very high paying... Maybe the older generation thought he "should have" taken that into consideration? Then again, everyone's circumstances are different.

Its also said we expect things too fast. I don't know anyone my age who wants to live in a 4 bedroom 4 bathroom house, let alone thinks they should be able to afford one. I agree there are people our age who are entitled, and there are parents that enable that behaviour. <--- this is VERY true!! But I don't think it is the majority, or even a significant part of our generation. In my area condo sales are booming because of millenials. The large houses are being bought by boomers.

I would also like to echo what someone said about you don't know what the person is like going in so you can't assume what they will be like going out. Not everyone is in the position where they can go to school and not take loans. Many people have to. So should they not go to school? I don't think that is the answer. <--- did someone say that? Hmmm... that's definitely not the answer in my opinion. I wouldn't have been able to go to school if I hadn't paid for it 100% with loans!! Yikes!

...'79 baby here, so I'm right there with ya! ...ummm, I think? If the author is mad, then okay... he resents being called entitled. If he thinks they're wrong, okay -- Screw 'em! LOL ...and with that I say, "everyone is entitled only to his own opinion."

 

[makhro82]

I am not sure who said it but not everyone can get financial aid.

When my DH graduated HS he was 17. His parents made too much money to have him qualify for financial aid and their credit had taken a hit from their own high debt to income ratio from student loans.

So he was eligible for NOTHING not being able to sign a private loan at 17. He didn't become eligible for need based financial aid or government loans until 22 as he was considered a dependent (even though he had been taking care of himself from 17 forward). So he was already behind from those "typical" college years.

Even in my own home because my parents literally had NO income outside of disability they told me my income was too low for assistance.

There is this huge "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America where if I was able to do it you can too, but what if you don't have any bootstraps? These days everyone tells their kids to go to college but college is not a possibility for all families.

If I had it to do over again I probably would save myself some time and money and learned some sort of trade. Everyone always needs a mechanic, plumber, etc.

 

[nkarma]

I am not sure who said it but not everyone can get financial aid.

When my DH graduated HS he was 17. His parents made too much money to have him qualify for financial aid and their credit had taken a hit from their own high debt to income ratio from student loans.

So he was eligible for NOTHING not being able to sign a private loan at 17. He didn't become eligible for need based financial aid or government loans until 22 as he was considered a dependent (even though he had been taking care of himself from 17 forward). So he was already behind from those "typical" college years.

Even in my own home because my parents literally had NO income outside of disability they told me my income was too low for assistance.

There is this huge "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America where if I was able to do it you can too, but what if you don't have any bootstraps? These days everyone tells their kids to go to college but college is not a possibility for all families.

If I had it to do over again I probably would save myself some time and money and learned some sort of trade. Everyone always needs a mechanic, plumber, etc.

Thanks for pointing this out. It is true that not everyone can get loans. In CA, the govt offers loans to the parents based on their incomes and most middle income families will be offered one. So what if your parents don't want to take out a loan for you? There isn't an option to put that loan in your name and you aren't going to be able to earn that money and go to school full time, so you aren't going to be able to go until you are no longer a dependent at 22+.

 

[makhro82]

So what if your parents don't want to take out a loan for you? There isn't an option to put that loan in your name and you aren't going to be able to earn that money and go to school full time, so you aren't going to be able to go until you are no longer a dependent at 22+."

This is exactly my husband, thus our late start in life since we've been together since our freshman year in college. We both struggled to pay for college and will now get to pay back the loans. Which I get it. I took the loan out and I have to repay but when you are young you can't truly imagine what your life will be like in your latter 20s, 30s, and beyond. I couldn't have imagined that I'd be in my 30s and working FT in a profession not related to my degree because my degree doesn't pay without an advanced degree and then I would have even more student loan debt and it would have taken me even longer to finish college since I was working my way through. But some people would say "Hey those were your choices" because we all know how great the less than 25 crowd is at decision making I think a lot of our "problems" will really become evident in the retirement years as our children and grandchildren try to figure out what the heck to do with us.

 

[msop04]

I am not sure who said it but not everyone can get financial aid.

I said that. I wasn't talking about financial aid from banks or colleges, but about federal student loans. I didn't take out any in undergrad, so I don't know how that works, but it's my understanding that anyone can get federal loans for graduate school. Every single student in my class could have taken the maximum the government offered each year. There were people with very different backgrounds (fresh out of college, married with kids, older, etc) and they were all elibible. This may be for graduate studies only though??

When my DH graduated HS he was 17. His parents made too much money to have him qualify for financial aid and their credit had taken a hit from their own high debt to income ratio from student loans.

Federal loans don't have anything to do with parent's income. Again, this could apply to graduate studies only... The only financial aid that is based on income is the Pell Grant, from what I can remember... and to the best of my knowledge, this is only available for undergraduate studies.

So he was eligible for NOTHING not being able to sign a private loan at 17. He didn't become eligible for need based financial aid or government loans until 22 as he was considered a dependent (even though he had been taking care of himself from 17 forward). So he was already behind from those "typical" college years. Okay, that makes sense about the government loans... it is 22 years of age (which would equate to graduate studies for most students...) Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Even in my own home because my parents literally had NO income outside of disability they told me my income was too low for assistance. <-- is this from a bank or from the institution (or both?)?

There is this huge "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality in America where if I was able to do it you can too, but what if you don't have any bootstraps? These days everyone tells their kids to go to college but college is not a possibility for all families. I lived in a state where any student could attend a state school if they kept a certain GPA and had a minimal ACT/SAT score, so this is news to me. All of the surrounding states have this same deal...

If I had it to do over again I probably would save myself some time and money and learned some sort of trade. Everyone always needs a mechanic, plumber, etc. <--- this is a good point

 

[msop04]

So what if your parents don't want to take out a loan for you? There isn't an option to put that loan in your name and you aren't going to be able to earn that money and go to school full time, so you aren't going to be able to go until you are no longer a dependent at 22+."

This is exactly my husband, thus our late start in life since we've been together since our freshman year in college. We both struggled to pay for college and will now get to pay back the loans. Which I get it. I took the loan out and I have to repay but when you are young you can't truly imagine what your life will be like in your latter 20s, 30s, and beyond. I couldn't have imagined that I'd be in my 30s and working FT in a profession not related to my degree because my degree doesn't pay without an advanced degree and then I would have even more student loan debt and it would have taken me even longer to finish college since I was working my way through. But some people would say "Hey those were your choices" because we all know how great the less than 25 crowd is at decision making I think a lot of our "problems" will really become evident in the retirement years as our children and grandchildren try to figure out what the heck to do with us.

HA! So very true!!

 

[makhro82]

msop04: To qualify for the loans you have to complete a FAFSA. On the FAFSA you include your parents information if you are under 22. The FAFSA determines what loan/grant amount you are eligible for. So in his case because his parents income was too high he was not eligible for the program even though he was financing his education himself. Honestly, I truly believe that for him if his parents wanted to pay for it they could have. They could have made cuts in other areas of their life but his father paid for his own college education and felt that he could do the same even though the cost of an education rose drastically from the time he was going to college in the 70s in to when we began college in 2000. Not to mention Suze Orman says don't go into debt for your children's education (If we have children we are paying. We literally broke our backs getting through school. At 22 you should not be saddled with debt which may amount to a lifetime for our generation. I will strongly advocate them becoming a dentist, orthodontist, pharmacist or mechanic lol.)

For me I couldn't get loans from a bank or institution at first. I had zero credit and when I completed my FAFSA they said my family income was too low for a two parents and three children. Duh, that's why I need help! Eventually it worked out but we moved to CA because school was literally tens of thousands cheaper.

The state that we lived in didn't have the GPA/ACT-SAT deal but we live in CA now and I believe they do.

 

[JewelFreak]

There is too much emphasis on college, often. It's presented as a ticket to upward mobility, which it can be, but not automatically. In the long run, your major (unless it's for a specific field, like pre-med) isn't very important to ultimate success, nor where you went. Sometimes it is better to be a carpenter, plumber, mason, truck driver. No debt, no wasted time, and steady demand for your know-how.

My plumber proudly showed me photos of himself in carriage-driving competitions, holding the reins of his beautiful team of horses from the seats of several antique carriages he had restored to a gleaming T. And there I stood, gasping to pay his bill! If it's about money, there's an example!

Many of the tech zillionaires were college drop-outs, if they ever enrolled at all. But again, don't think it was easy; all of those folks put in millions of hours developing their products; begged & borrowed initial financing from anyone who'd listen; paced the floor & sweated at night over whether they should be risking their kids' futures. Little that's worth having is easy to get. Ben Franklin said, "The Constitution only guarantees the pursuit of happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

--- Laurie

 

[aviastar]

There is too much emphasis on college, often. It's presented as a ticket to upward mobility, which it can be, but not automatically. In the long run, your major (unless it's for a specific field, like pre-med) isn't very important to ultimate success, nor where you went. Sometimes it is better to be a carpenter, plumber, mason, truck driver. No debt, no wasted time, and steady demand for your know-how.

My plumber proudly showed me photos of himself in carriage-driving competitions, holding the reins of his beautiful team of horses from the seats of several antique carriages he had restored to a gleaming T. And there I stood, gasping to pay his bill! If it's about money, there's an example!

Many of the tech zillionaires were college drop-outs, if they ever enrolled at all. But again, don't think it was easy; all of those folks put in millions of hours developing their products; begged & borrowed initial financing from anyone who'd listen; paced the floor & sweated at night over whether they should be risking their kids' futures. Little that's worth having is easy to get. Ben Franklin said, "The Constitution only guarantees the pursuit of happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

--- Laurie

Laurie, have you seen the work Mike Rowe is doing on this very topic? I think you will enjoy it, I certainly do. With many family members, including my husband and I, in the trades and small business owners, much of what he says hits very close to home.

We're involved with a local service organization that offers a scholarship for kids attending two year trade schools; neither local high school will even include it in the list of available scholarships because its not for a four year degree. Sad- sad and stupid.

http://profoundlydisconnected.com

 

[msop04]

This whole thing could have been avoided had our government not forced the banks to loan against their better judgment (which had worked pretty well before everyone "should be able to own a home").

Right. So, because you can get the money even though a little arithmetic tells you you'll not be able to repay it, you take it anyway -- and that's the government's fault? In my book, it's just dumb.

I negotiated the mortgage for our last house. One loan officer tried hard to sell me a balloon mortgage. Blah blah about the low payments for 10 years. "And then?" I asked. "Well, they get really big. Who cares what happens in ten years? You can move before then." A lot of people fell for that because they wanted to. Not because the gov't made them. Yes, that policy -- which is now reinstated btw -- is horrible. Ultimately, though, we are responsible for our own futures & 'No" is a useful word to be able to pronounce.

--- Laurie

Yes, it is the government's fault for acting as an enabler. The banks knew better than to just hand anyone a bunch of money, but the government mandated that the loans be given out, regardless of the bank's feeling about the client(s) in question. Thousands of loans were to be approved for people who normally wouldn't be eligible... clearly, for good reason. And, yes, it is very dumb. Do you think all these newly approved loanees thought it through?? Some may not have even cared... either way, thousands of those people's homes were foreclosed on because they couldn't pay the mortgage... something the banks knew to begin with.

Yeah, balloon mortgages are a bunch of crap! That's so crazy that your loan officer said that!! OMG! Many have fallen for this, yes, but if not given access to the money (government's decision), those people would have never been approved for the loan to begin with... Yes, it was a horrible policy.

I think sometimes people take their own common sense for granted, and assume that others have it too. I work with the public, so believe me when I say... their are A LOT of people that have zero common sense! Your are exactly right -- we are responsible for our own futures, however, if everyone could say no or accept personal responsibility like you and I can, then we wouldn't have a lot of these problems... KWIM?

 

[yssie]

There is too much emphasis on college, often. It's presented as a ticket to upward mobility, which it can be, but not automatically. In the long run, your major (unless it's for a specific field, like pre-med) isn't very important to ultimate success, nor where you went. Sometimes it is better to be a carpenter, plumber, mason, truck driver. No debt, no wasted time, and steady demand for your know-how.

My plumber proudly showed me photos of himself in carriage-driving competitions, holding the reins of his beautiful team of horses from the seats of several antique carriages he had restored to a gleaming T. And there I stood, gasping to pay his bill! If it's about money, there's an example!

Many of the tech zillionaires were college drop-outs, if they ever enrolled at all. But again, don't think it was easy; all of those folks put in millions of hours developing their products; begged & borrowed initial financing from anyone who'd listen; paced the floor & sweated at night over whether they should be risking their kids' futures. Little that's worth having is easy to get. Ben Franklin said, "The Constitution only guarantees the pursuit of happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

--- Laurie

Now that "higher education" has become so accessible and common a college degree has become vastly devalued - for many opportunities in many fields a college degree is now the minimum requirement. And so the question is no longer whether you have a college education, it's where that education came from. Which leaves those who cannot afford - or choose not to choose - the Big Name Schools in their chosen fields at a competitive disadvantage. And not all state schools are created equal - far from it!

I don't have any answers. Or any words of wisdom. On any of it. But I can certainly understand being frustrated... the median household income is 52000. Is it any surprise that so many people can no longer afford single-income households? And saving for retirement, and paying the rent/mortgage, and paying medical expenses, and caring for dependents, and working sixty hours a week instead of forty and losing job security, any hope of a pension or social security benefits, retirement plan matching...

I think I'm lucky, personally. My parents, who grew up poor in a society built on a caste system and never tried to shelter me from it, never let me believe that if I worked hard I could achieve anything I wanted. I've known for as long as I can remember that to become a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerberg takes three things - effort, seizing the right opportunity at the right time, and being lucky enough to happen upon and recognise those opportunities. And I've also known for as long as I can remember that some things are just birthright - I'll never be a princess or a Vanderbilt. And having absolutely no control over the latter and only over two of the three of the former... I was taught to temper my dreams and work my a$$ off to achieve realistic goals. It's the "reaching for the moon and falling into the stars" nonsense that's rampant nowadays that's the truly dangerous delusion, IMHO.

 

[msop04]

Now that "higher education" has become so accessible and common a college degree has become vastly devalued - for many opportunities in many fields a college degree is now the minimum requirement. And so the question is no longer whether you have a college education, it's where that education came from. Which leaves those who cannot afford - or choose not to choose - the Big Name Schools in their chosen fields at a competitive disadvantage. And not all state schools are created equal - far from it!

I don't have any answers. Or any words of wisdom. On any of it. But I can certainly understand being frustrated... the median household income is 52000. Is it any surprise that so many people can no longer afford single-income households? And saving for retirement, and paying the rent/mortgage, and paying medical expenses, and caring for dependents, and working sixty hours a week instead of forty and losing job security, any hope of a pension or social security benefits, retirement plan matching...

I think I'm lucky, personally. My parents, who grew up poor in a society built on a caste system and never tried to shelter me from it, never let me believe that if I worked hard I could achieve anything I wanted. I've known for as long as I can remember that to become a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerberg takes three things - effort, seizing the right opportunity at the right time, and being lucky enough to happen upon and recognise those opportunities. And I've also known for as long as I can remember that some things are just birthright - I'll never be a princess or a Vanderbilt. And that I have absolutely no control over the latter and only over two of the three of the former... so I was taught to temper my dreams, and work my a$$ off to achieve realistic goals. It's the "reaching for the moon and falling into the stars" nonsense that's rampant nowadays that's the truly dangerous delusion, IMHO.

Very well said, Yssie!

 

[yssie]

This whole thing could have been avoided had our government not forced the banks to loan against their better judgment (which had worked pretty well before everyone "should be able to own a home").

Right. So, because you can get the money even though a little arithmetic tells you you'll not be able to repay it, you take it anyway -- and that's the government's fault? In my book, it's just dumb.

I negotiated the mortgage for our last house. One loan officer tried hard to sell me a balloon mortgage. Blah blah about the low payments for 10 years. "And then?" I asked. "Well, they get really big. Who cares what happens in ten years? You can move before then." A lot of people fell for that because they wanted to. Not because the gov't made them. Yes, that policy -- which is now reinstated btw -- is horrible. Ultimately, though, we are responsible for our own futures & 'No" is a useful word to be able to pronounce.

--- Laurie

Yes, it is the government's fault for acting as an enabler. The banks knew better than to just hand anyone a bunch of money, but the government mandated that the loans be given out, regardless of the bank's feeling about the client(s) in question. Thousands of loans were to be approved for people who normally wouldn't be eligible... clearly, for good reason. And, yes, it is very dumb. Do you think all these newly approved loanees thought it through?? Some may not have even cared... either way, thousands of those people's homes were foreclosed on because they couldn't pay the mortgage... something the banks knew to begin with.

Yeah, balloon mortgages are a bunch of crap! That's so crazy that your loan officer said that!! OMG! Many have fallen for this, yes, but if not given access to the money (government's decision), those people would have never been approved for the loan to begin with... Yes, it was a horrible policy.

I think sometimes people take their own common sense for granted, and assume that others have it too. I work with the public, so believe me when I say... their are A LOT of people that have zero common sense! Your are exactly right -- we are responsible for our own futures, however, if everyone could say no or accept personal responsibility like you and I can, then we wouldn't have a lot of these problems... KWIM?

I started quoting each part but... I'll just ditto the whole darn post.
A little common sense and integrity would go a LONG way!! As would holding people and institutions accountable for their own stupidity and/or lack of integrity. Which means not having the sort of economic infrastructure that would collapse without golden parachutes...

ETA: Figures we're cross-posting and ditto'ing each other msop!

 

[makhro82]

There is too much emphasis on college, often. It's presented as a ticket to upward mobility, which it can be, but not automatically. In the long run, your major (unless it's for a specific field, like pre-med) isn't very important to ultimate success, nor where you went. Sometimes it is better to be a carpenter, plumber, mason, truck driver. No debt, no wasted time, and steady demand for your know-how.

My plumber proudly showed me photos of himself in carriage-driving competitions, holding the reins of his beautiful team of horses from the seats of several antique carriages he had restored to a gleaming T. And there I stood, gasping to pay his bill! If it's about money, there's an example!

Many of the tech zillionaires were college drop-outs, if they ever enrolled at all. But again, don't think it was easy; all of those folks put in millions of hours developing their products; begged & borrowed initial financing from anyone who'd listen; paced the floor & sweated at night over whether they should be risking their kids' futures. Little that's worth having is easy to get. Ben Franklin said, "The Constitution only guarantees the pursuit of happiness. You have to catch it yourself."

--- Laurie

Now that "higher education" has become so accessible and common a college degree has become vastly devalued - for many opportunities in many fields a college degree is now the minimum requirement. And so the question is no longer whether you have a college education, it's where that education came from. Which leaves those who cannot afford - or choose not to choose - the Big Name Schools in their chosen fields at a competitive disadvantage. And not all state schools are created equal - far from it!

I don't have any answers. Or any words of wisdom. On any of it. But I can certainly understand being frustrated... the median household income is 52000. Is it any surprise that so many people can no longer afford single-income households? And saving for retirement, and paying the rent/mortgage, and paying medical expenses, and caring for dependents, and working sixty hours a week instead of forty and losing job security, any hope of a pension or social security benefits, retirement plan matching... I work in banking/investments and I see this every day. The boomers are relying on pensions, social security, and the wealth they were able to build through homeownership and working at ONE job for 30+years. The younger generation is not thinking about their 401K because they are paying of their student loans, renting, and living paycheck to paycheck. How can I convince this person to invest or open an IRA when they make no money. I have many friends most of whom are college educated and I can count on one hand how many are using their actual degrees and on one finger who is making real money!

I think I'm lucky, personally. My parents, who grew up poor in a society built on a caste system and never tried to shelter me from it, never let me believe that if I worked hard I could achieve anything I wanted. I've known for as long as I can remember that to become a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, or Mark Zuckerberg takes three things - effort, seizing the right opportunity at the right time, and being lucky enough to happen upon and recognise those opportunities. And I've also known for as long as I can remember that some things are just birthright - I'll never be a princess or a Vanderbilt. And having absolutely no control over the latter and only over two of the three of the former... I was taught to temper my dreams and work my a$$ off to achieve realistic goals. It's the "reaching for the moon and falling into the stars" nonsense that's rampant nowadays that's the truly dangerous delusion, IMHO.

+1 Yssie! There was never any doubt from my parents that I would go to college but there was never any conversation about paying for it! I also agree with that you said about a degree being devalued and choosing schools that you give a competitive advantage.

 

[msop04]

+1 Yssie! There was never any doubt from my parents that I would go to college but there was never any conversation about paying for it! I also agree with that you said about a degree being devalued and choosing schools that you give a competitive advantage.

This! I think this must be a common theme in families... I think it's great that my pharmacy alma mater brings in a financial advisor every year to talk to second and fourth year students about our debt, answer our questions, and try to put our minds a little more at ease. It's a start!

 

[JewelFreak]

We're involved with a local service organization that offers a scholarship for kids attending two year trade schools; neither local high school will even include it in the list of available scholarships because its not for a four year degree. Sad- sad and stupid.

Aviastar, that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard! I suppose you generous folks have mentioned to them that their RESPONSIBILITY is to provide students with all possible choices? Makes me so mad, I have steam coming out my ears! Can you get an article written in local papers -- say, about your scholarship & others, and kinda throw in that high schools refuse to tell students about them? Even letters to the editor at college application time might be useful.

Yssie & MSOP, you're both right -- too many good points there to quote them all.

Yes -- the gov't is profoundly at fault for mandating mortgages to anyone. More so by guaranteeing them -- that program should be stopped. If lenders had to cough up for mortgages that go sour, as they did for generations, sensible standards would again appear. 1) Requirements wouldn't be unreasonably tight because mortgage lending makes money for them, 2) They'd turn down unqualified borrowers, 3) responsible tax payers would not be on the hook for g.d. foreclosures.

However, the government is not its citizens' parent. Buy into something you can't afford, lose it, you learn not to do it again. That alone is valuable both to individual and to society. The balloon mortgage that loan seller offered me was gigantic; we could never have paid it after the 10 yrs. Many people want to believe fairy tales, but it is not up to Washington (that's you, me, our neighbors & relatives) to protect them against themselves. A tragic number of people have always fallen for the Bernie Madoff pitch and always will. Make laws to big-brother the willing chumps & you hamstring responsible people too. I realize a ton of folks have no common sense -- how are they gonna acquire any if they are protected from consequences of their actions? We learn from our mistakes.

--- Laurie

 

[msop04]

We're involved with a local service organization that offers a scholarship for kids attending two year trade schools; neither local high school will even include it in the list of available scholarships because its not for a four year degree. Sad- sad and stupid.

Aviastar, that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard! I suppose you generous folks have mentioned to them that their RESPONSIBILITY is to provide students with all possible choices? Makes me so mad, I have steam coming out my ears! Can you get an article written in local papers -- say, about your scholarship & others, and kinda throw in that high schools refuse to tell students about them? Even letters to the editor at college application time might be useful.

Yssie & MSOP, you're both right -- too many good points there to quote them all.

Yes -- the gov't is profoundly at fault for mandating mortgages to anyone. More so by guaranteeing them -- that program should be stopped. If lenders had to cough up for mortgages that go sour, as they did for generations, sensible standards would again appear. 1) Requirements wouldn't be unreasonably tight because mortgage lending makes money for them, 2) They'd turn down unqualified borrowers, 3) responsible tax payers would not be on the hook for g.d. foreclosures.

However, the government is not its citizens' parent. Buy into something you can't afford, lose it, you learn not to do it again. That alone is valuable both to individual and to society. The balloon mortgage that loan seller offered me was gigantic; we could never have paid it after the 10 yrs. Many people want to believe fairy tales, but it is not up to Washington (that's you, me, our neighbors & relatives) to protect them against themselves. A tragic number of people have always fallen for the Bernie Madoff pitch and always will. Make laws to big-brother the willing chumps & you hamstring responsible people too. I realize a ton of folks have no common sense -- how are they gonna acquire any if they are protected from consequences of their actions? We learn from our mistakes.

--- Laurie

+1
I totally agree with you, Laurie ...if only our "learning experiences" didn't come with a huge price... to be paid by everyone for years to come.
I used to think everyone could learn eventually, but... nope, some can't. Unfortunately, people are pretty dumb, folks.

 

[justginger]

Genuinely curious - are people of the opinion that it's ok to have professions which require a college degree, but provide an income below the level of sustainability? I find that notion ludicrous. The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either. There's quite a large, comfortable gap between rich and poor, an area which I think is the expectation of many individuals (myself included). I think it's laughable to have an economy full of professions that REQUIRE a 4 year degree, but don't provide the pay necessary to reimburse the cost of said schooling. Thankfully I've slipped into a career path, by lucky accident, that I love AND pays well in a booming economy. I'd hate to think where I'd be if I had tried to gain employment in the Stares post-graduation. I've watched my friends scrimp and struggle, with no expectations past paying rent and maybe catching a movie once/month.

I think this bothers me in the sense that the rift between rich and poor has clearly turned into a chasm. College educated journalists struggle to pay rent, while trust fund babies struggle to get through their weekly allowances of tens of thousands of dollars.

Jeez - I sound like a Communist.

 

[msop04]

msop04: To qualify for the loans you have to complete a FAFSA. On the FAFSA you include your parents information if you are under 22. The FAFSA determines what loan/grant amount you are eligible for. So in his case because his parents income was too high he was not eligible for the program even though he was financing his education himself. Honestly, I truly believe that for him if his parents wanted to pay for it they could have. They could have made cuts in other areas of their life but his father paid for his own college education and felt that he could do the same even though the cost of an education rose drastically from the time he was going to college in the 70s in to when we began college in 2000. Not to mention Suze Orman says don't go into debt for your children's education (If we have children we are paying. We literally broke our backs getting through school. At 22 you should not be saddled with debt which may amount to a lifetime for our generation. I will strongly advocate them becoming a dentist, orthodontist, pharmacist or mechanic lol.)

For me I couldn't get loans from a bank or institution at first. I had zero credit and when I completed my FAFSA they said my family income was too low for a two parents and three children. Duh, that's why I need help! Eventually it worked out but we moved to CA because school was literally tens of thousands cheaper.

The state that we lived in didn't have the GPA/ACT-SAT deal but we live in CA now and I believe they do.

Ahhhhh, yes... the FAFSA! My parents filled this out for me in undergrad, and I wasn't eligible for anything either (my dad was a high school teacher and my mother a secretary, and I have 3 other sisters --so we weren't anywhere near wealthy). When I was 22, I filled it out when I applied to grad school, so that makes sense why my parent's income wasn't a part of the equation. As for my parents, my dad paid for his own school and my mom didn't go to college. My parents always had relatives give me bank bonds for birthdays and holidays my entire life in lieu of gifts -- which absolutely SUCKED as a kid, but I'm soooo grateful for there foresight now. That paid for almost half (thank GOD!!), and the rest I received on scholarship. There is absolutely no way my parents could have paid for my college, much less graduate school. Since I knew I'd make a nice salary right out of school (good thing!! LOL), I never felt they should be responsible for paying for any part of grad school. (...not that they could afford it even if I expected them to.)

My husband and I don't have any children yet, but I am firm on not going into debt for their undergraduate studies. His family paid for all his college expenses (lucky him) and he feels we should pay for college regardless. We have an agreement to pay for an in-state public school (he hopes they attend Auburn, his alma mater) so that it will not cost so much, and we would pay for extracurriculars, Greek life, books, and give spending money. However, should they decide to attend grad school, they are on their own. I'm hoping this will encourage them to really think about their futures and being responsible. For me, paying for school myself gives me a sense of accomplishment, and it certainly made me work harder in school. There were several occasions where I'd call home crying and saying I couldn't do it, wanted to come home, blah blah... My dad's response? In a calm, understanding tone he said, "Take a break, go outside and have a little cry..." (then more serioulsy) "...then come right back in and keep studying, because you can't afford to fail." Ok, dad... <sniffle> He wasn't being mean, he was making me full aware of the reality of my situation! LOL

 

[JewelFreak]

The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either.

Journalism has many levels & therefore pay scales. Working for a small local paper will never pay a lot. Many of the entry jobs at big ones -- if you can get to the front of the application line -- such as fact-checking, copy editing, don't pay bundles either. Newspaper & magazine writing simply doesn't bring in big bucks; sometimes not even medium bucks. TV reporting is more lucrative, but by choosing print, he limits himself financially right away. Even a little investigation (he's supposed to be a reporter, after all ) would have shown him that. Plus, he has a child to help support, which at some time was also a choice.

The guy is young. LOTS of professions pay near-poverty until you work your way up. As far as I can see, he's mad that he's not making the money somebody in the profession longer would make. But he states that he loves the field. Everything he needed to know was there when he opted for it; he chose to disregard that or not find out at all. There are better-paying things he could do with his background, copy writing, book editing, advertising, etc. Maybe he'll do that sometime. But he doesn't get my sympathy complaining about a job he loves that doesn't pay him what he thinks he's worth. He chose the field.

Ginger -- it isn't fair but neither is the world. Athletes make multiple millions for playing baseball, hockey, football? Actors ditto for play-acting all day? General practitioners spend a decade in school & make fractions of what a baseball player does, even of what a specialist does. That's life on earth. There's no way to make everything fair for everyone. We could legislate every job's salary & it still wouldn't be fair because some would be better or work harder & not make more for it.

Ever since I can remember -- and that's a loooong time, lol -- media has been hammering a widening gap between rich & poor. If they were right & that gap were as wide as it should be after all this time, there would be no poor -- they'd be dead of starvation, and the rich would all be Caesars. I saw a study yesterday saying over 80% of U.S. poor have cell phones, A/C, and big tvs. The definition of poor changes with politics & prosperity.

There are choices. If someone doesn't want to take on debt for college that they won't make enough to repay, then change to a different profession. I'll bet 90% of workers end up in jobs very different from what they expected in youth. I know I did -- went where the opportunities were. That can be fun if you stop whining!

--- Laurie

 

[msop04]

The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either.

Journalism has many levels & therefore pay scales. Working for a small local paper will never pay a lot. Many of the entry jobs at big ones -- if you can get to the front of the application line -- such as fact-checking, copy editing, don't pay bundles either. Newspaper & magazine writing simply doesn't bring in big bucks; sometimes not even medium bucks. TV reporting is more lucrative, but by choosing print, he limits himself financially right away. Even a little investigation (he's supposed to be a reporter, after all ) would have shown him that. Plus, he has a child to help support, which at some time was also a choice.

The guy is young. LOTS of professions pay near-poverty until you work your way up. As far as I can see, he's mad that he's not making the money somebody in the profession longer would make. But he states that he loves the field. Everything he needed to know was there when he opted for it; he chose to disregard that or not find out at all. There are better-paying things he could do with his background, copy writing, book editing, advertising, etc. Maybe he'll do that sometime. But he doesn't get my sympathy complaining about a job he loves that doesn't pay him what he thinks he's worth. He chose the field.

Ginger -- it isn't fair but neither is the world. Athletes make multiple millions for playing baseball, hockey, football? Actors ditto for play-acting all day? General practitioners spend a decade in school & make fractions of what a baseball player does, even of what a specialist does. That's life on earth. There's no way to make everything fair for everyone. We could legislate every job's salary & it still wouldn't be fair because some would be better or work harder & not make more for it.

Ever since I can remember -- and that's a loooong time, lol -- media has been hammering a widening gap between rich & poor. If they were right & that gap were as wide as it should be after all this time, there would be no poor -- they'd be dead of starvation, and the rich would all be Caesars. I saw a study yesterday saying over 80% of U.S. poor have cell phones, A/C, and big tvs. The definition of poor changes with politics & prosperity.

There are choices. If someone doesn't want to take on debt for college that they won't make enough to repay, then change to a different profession. I'll bet 90% of workers end up in jobs very different from what they expected in youth. I know I did -- went where the opportunities were. That can be fun if you stop whining!

--- Laurie

Laurie!!! This exactly!! I was quoting all your stuff, then I thought I may as well just say DITTO!

 

[Sky56]

I'm kind of out of the loop being in my late 50's and having no children, but his rant sounded familiar to me. I think he and his generation have it worse than we did given the state of the economy, but I remember feeling strongly some of the same things that he does, back in the mid-late 70's...having a degree that didn't have much clout in helping me get a job, in addition...intense competition for everything from finding an apartment to rent to getting a job due to the huge size of the Baby Boomer generation. One of his points really hit home to me - How he worried about taking his baby to the ER wiping out his savings...some things about our system "really suck," as he would say.

 

[aviastar]

We're involved with a local service organization that offers a scholarship for kids attending two year trade schools; neither local high school will even include it in the list of available scholarships because its not for a four year degree. Sad- sad and stupid.

Aviastar, that's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard! I suppose you generous folks have mentioned to them that their RESPONSIBILITY is to provide students with all possible choices? Makes me so mad, I have steam coming out my ears! Can you get an article written in local papers -- say, about your scholarship & others, and kinda throw in that high schools refuse to tell students about them? Even letters to the editor at college application time might be useful.

Yea, we've got a meeting with one of the principals tonight, actually. But the reality of it is that the guidance counselors just aren't all that great around here. So we've moved beyond the school system and found some people who actually work with youth in the community who already are/would be looking for exactly this kind of career opportunity. We have a well established and wonderful vocational high school in the county that just gets ignored by the larger population, in and out of the school system.

The problem, I think, is even bigger than public perception, although that's an excellent place to start. My state has legislation that says you can't take on an apprentice unless you have been teaching (at a recognized institution) for a minimum of 20 years, consecutively! One, crafts and trades people are more of than not, making their living from plying their craft or trade, leaving little room to teach in such a formal setting. Two, in order to teach in such formal settings you often have to have a minimum of a masters degree- which most tradesmen don't have. So you can take on a new employee and conduct on the job training, but that means the student is now not eligible for scholarships, loans, or certifications even though he is studying under a master craftsman. And three- 20 consecutive years! Holy Crap, when exactly would you have time to become a master craftsman if you were teaching for 20 years!

 

[ksinger]

Genuinely curious - are people of the opinion that it's ok to have professions which require a college degree, but provide an income below the level of sustainability? I find that notion ludicrous. The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either. There's quite a large, comfortable gap between rich and poor, an area which I think is the expectation of many individuals (myself included). I think it's laughable to have an economy full of professions that REQUIRE a 4 year degree, but don't provide the pay necessary to reimburse the cost of said schooling. Thankfully I've slipped into a career path, by lucky accident, that I love AND pays well in a booming economy. I'd hate to think where I'd be if I had tried to gain employment in the Stares post-graduation. I've watched my friends scrimp and struggle, with no expectations past paying rent and maybe catching a movie once/month.

I think this bothers me in the sense that the rift between rich and poor has clearly turned into a chasm. College educated journalists struggle to pay rent, while trust fund babies struggle to get through their weekly allowances of tens of thousands of dollars.

Jeez - I sound like a Communist.

No, you just sound like someone who understands that historically people have not starved quietly or calmly.

 

[justginger]

The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either.

Journalism has many levels & therefore pay scales. Working for a small local paper will never pay a lot. Many of the entry jobs at big ones -- if you can get to the front of the application line -- such as fact-checking, copy editing, don't pay bundles either. Newspaper & magazine writing simply doesn't bring in big bucks; sometimes not even medium bucks. TV reporting is more lucrative, but by choosing print, he limits himself financially right away. Even a little investigation (he's supposed to be a reporter, after all ) would have shown him that. Plus, he has a child to help support, which at some time was also a choice.

The guy is young. LOTS of professions pay near-poverty until you work your way up. As far as I can see, he's mad that he's not making the money somebody in the profession longer would make. But he states that he loves the field. Everything he needed to know was there when he opted for it; he chose to disregard that or not find out at all. There are better-paying things he could do with his background, copy writing, book editing, advertising, etc. Maybe he'll do that sometime. But he doesn't get my sympathy complaining about a job he loves that doesn't pay him what he thinks he's worth. He chose the field.

Ginger -- it isn't fair but neither is the world. Athletes make multiple millions for playing baseball, hockey, football? Actors ditto for play-acting all day? General practitioners spend a decade in school & make fractions of what a baseball player does, even of what a specialist does. That's life on earth. There's no way to make everything fair for everyone. We could legislate every job's salary & it still wouldn't be fair because some would be better or work harder & not make more for it.

Ever since I can remember -- and that's a loooong time, lol -- media has been hammering a widening gap between rich & poor. If they were right & that gap were as wide as it should be after all this time, there would be no poor -- they'd be dead of starvation, and the rich would all be Caesars. I saw a study yesterday saying over 80% of U.S. poor have cell phones, A/C, and big tvs. The definition of poor changes with politics & prosperity.

There are choices. If someone doesn't want to take on debt for college that they won't make enough to repay, then change to a different profession. I'll bet 90% of workers end up in jobs very different from what they expected in youth. I know I did -- went where the opportunities were. That can be fun if you stop whining!

--- Laurie

If you look up the stats, which is too hard for me to do from my phone, there are dozens upon dozens of articles regarding how severely the gap has widened just in the last 10 years (I believe that was the period - one decade). During that time, the net wealth of the top 1% has tripled? Maybe it was even quadrupled? The figures were gobsmacking. There is no doubt that the richest of the rich are getting explosively richer. Check out "Rich Kids of Instagram" if you need that point driven home.

 

[ksinger]

The author states that he was perfectly aware the he would never get rich...but that doesn't mean he expected to be living at poverty-level either.

Journalism has many levels & therefore pay scales. Working for a small local paper will never pay a lot. Many of the entry jobs at big ones -- if you can get to the front of the application line -- such as fact-checking, copy editing, don't pay bundles either. Newspaper & magazine writing simply doesn't bring in big bucks; sometimes not even medium bucks. TV reporting is more lucrative, but by choosing print, he limits himself financially right away. Even a little investigation (he's supposed to be a reporter, after all ) would have shown him that. Plus, he has a child to help support, which at some time was also a choice.

The guy is young. LOTS of professions pay near-poverty until you work your way up. As far as I can see, he's mad that he's not making the money somebody in the profession longer would make. But he states that he loves the field. Everything he needed to know was there when he opted for it; he chose to disregard that or not find out at all. There are better-paying things he could do with his background, copy writing, book editing, advertising, etc. Maybe he'll do that sometime. But he doesn't get my sympathy complaining about a job he loves that doesn't pay him what he thinks he's worth. He chose the field.

Ginger -- it isn't fair but neither is the world. Athletes make multiple millions for playing baseball, hockey, football? Actors ditto for play-acting all day? General practitioners spend a decade in school & make fractions of what a baseball player does, even of what a specialist does. That's life on earth. There's no way to make everything fair for everyone. We could legislate every job's salary & it still wouldn't be fair because some would be better or work harder & not make more for it.

Ever since I can remember -- and that's a loooong time, lol -- media has been hammering a widening gap between rich & poor. If they were right & that gap were as wide as it should be after all this time, there would be no poor -- they'd be dead of starvation, and the rich would all be Caesars. I saw a study yesterday saying over 80% of U.S. poor have cell phones, A/C, and big tvs. The definition of poor changes with politics & prosperity.

There are choices. If someone doesn't want to take on debt for college that they won't make enough to repay, then change to a different profession. I'll bet 90% of workers end up in jobs very different from what they expected in youth. I know I did -- went where the opportunities were. That can be fun if you stop whining!

--- Laurie

If you look up the stats, which is too hard for me to do from my phone, there are dozens upon dozens of articles regarding how severely the gap has widened just in the last 10 years (I believe that was the period - one decade). During that time, the net wealth of the top 1% has tripled? Maybe it was even quadrupled? The figures were gobsmacking. There is no doubt that the richest of the rich are getting explosively richer. Check out "Rich Kids of Instagram" if you need that point driven home.

Your wish is my command, at least if you want to see GINI coefficients. The US has one of the worst in the developed world. But hey we beat places like Afghanistan and Sierra Leone, so we're still OK.

Handy graphic is on page 4.
http://www.oecd.org/els/soc/OECD2013-Inequality-and-Poverty-8p.pdf

I'm always entertained that people point to cell phones and TVs as somehow proof that poverty in the US isn't real poverty. Forgetting of course that most people consider a phone a basic necessity - to call a doctor, report a crime, respond to a job offer, etc, and have for most of the 20th century, and that we've ALL been dumping our landlines for cell phones for some time now. And of course those of us with money have an average of 4 TVs per household now? I bet you could find outdated bigscreens at the local thrift stores. Much of my decor is carefully selected, refurbished "junk" from thrift stores, but doesn't reflect my income any more than my inherited antiques do.

I guess poverty won't be real for some until they see skeletal people living in hovels with dirt floors and a hole in the ground for plumbing. Considering that the talk is now about cutting food stamps, I'd say we may be on our way.