LiW Reassurance/advice needed (not a good day)

[sandia_rose]

I posted about this on another thread, but something that was said on the Living Together Before Marriage thread made me repost this as its own topic. You ladies always give good advice, which is why I am posting here (my two best girlfriends are also at work now....otherwise, I'd talk it over with them):

If you've been reading my posts, my BF and I have been on the roller coaster ride lately. But I decided that he's who I want. We had a tough 6 months, then we had a great almost-week vacation away which went well, and things had been getting better since we got back. I had a lot of time during my vacation to think and make up my mind about the relationship. I'm not going to complain about commitment anymore -- because I am choosing to stay in this relationship as opposed to push for more than he's willing to give me. And I also realized that I like him in my life and don't want to walk. If we get engaged, great! If not, then I have to be happy with that. And as I said, things have been going better.....until last night. Stupid STUPID me had a couple of drinks last night and I blew something out of proportion that I shouldn't have. I had gone to bed before him and was sitting up reading with a cup of tea. He took a shower, came into bed, looked at me and said, "Are you OK?" I said, "Yeah, fine. I'm really tired." And he said, "Have you been drinking?" I said, "I had a few. Why, what's the problem? The kids are in bed and so am I right now. I'm not bothering anybody." And then he said, "Well, the look in your eye just rubbed me the wrong way. It's like you're closet drinking." And I said, "I am not. It's not like you don't know I drink now and then -- and I'm drinking green tea right now. And I can't control the look in my eye." And he said, "Well, it just rubbed me the wrong way."

This was probably the Long Island Iced Tea, but I got very, very annoyed at him. I snapped with, "I am sick of having to live by your ex's standards." That is not what he meant by "rubbed me the wrong way," but it's how I took it. My BF has never said that I can't drink in his house -- he drinks occasionally as well. He said one time that he's leery of people who drink more than 1 or 2, because he's been involved with people with problems. But he drinks and know I do - this is not a secret. I don't have a problem, it's obvious that I don't, and I feel like I have to bend over backwards to prove that I don't have one. My BF's ex, as I've often posted, has alcohol and substance issues. And I've been down the "proving" road before and promised myself I'd never go there again. My ex husband's father was a bad alcoholic, and as a result, my ex could not stand anyone drinking at all. The one or two times during our marriage that he saw me buzzed were treated as federal offenses, and maybe I was reacting to that memory. Anyway, I went to grab my overnight bag and almost walked out because I got annoyed, until he told me to just go home....and then he rethought it and asked me to come to bed.

Obviously, I felt like an @ss this morning. I knew what I did and said and was contrite. His take on it was, "You were buzzed and the drama wouldn't have happened if you weren't....but let's just put it aside and move on." He also said, "I don't know why it rubbed me the wrong way - you did nothing wrong. It's not like I'm a saint. Maybe it's both our conditioning. And remember, YOU upped the ante by saying you were leaving...so I snapped back by telling you to just go." But on the other hand, with his ex's substance problems, I feel like I'm not allowed license to be a human being. IMO, there is nothing wrong with a few drinks at the end of (what was for me) a stressful day at work. I'm a responsible adult who has a good job, I do not drink every day and rarely am buzzed if I do, and if I am, I don't bother anyone else, drunk dial, drink and drive, etc....but I said as much last night: I am tired of having to feel like I have to be over-the-top perfect to compensate for what his ex put him through. I said to him, "If something is a problem to you, then make me aware of the rule and how you want me to handle it. I don't know what I did wrong." He says I did nothing wrong but shoot off my mouth and overreact, and that again, since he drinks, he can't very well tell me not to.

I dunno what to think of myself/the situation/. I feel bad today (emotionally bad, not hung-over bad...I wasn't that gone). What's that phrase my mom used to use, "I'm not punishing you for X - you do a good enough job yourself." Yes, I know that overreacting was stupid and immature and didn't need to happen.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, too? Should I just let this go? I'm worried because my BF and I are spending a lot more time together lately before making the decision to move in together, and I'm worried/paranoid that I wielded some damage.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Erin]

Don''t you dare let him talk you into thinking you should feel bad about that.
He needs to take some responsibility for saying you ''had a look in your eye''? Lemme guess, what look is he referring to? Someone else''s?
He has his own issues and only you know if you can live with them. You don''t have to act perfect to live above someone else''s standards.
Just be who you are - if he can''t handle it then those are his issues he needs to work on. But don''t change being who you are for him, that''d be exhausting.

However, I must say...
Running away, or threatening to run away, especially if you don''t follow through with it, signals you''re playing a game.
It sounds like you want him to beat you to do door begging you not to go.
Stick it out, talk about it and resolve it.

 

[Aloros]

I''d just let it go. I think it''s perfectly normal in a healthy relationship to once in a while take something the wrong way, or to snap at one another over something harmless. It probably wasn''t the best idea to escalate the situation by making as if to leave, but what''s done is done, and the argument is over.

Don''t stress! You shouldn''t have to feel like you have to do everything perfectly or things won''t work out. We all say things we don''t mean to our loved ones. It doesn''t mean that it''s right, or ok, but the fact is we are all human.

Honestly? I think you both overreacted. A "look in your eye"? How vague is that? Unless you shot him a real honest-to-god dirty look, I don''t see how he could infer closet-drinking from that.

 

[princesss]

Okay, I really think this was more than a flare up of *his* issues with his ex, or *your* issues with yours. It was both. You''re used to being on the defensive about drinking, even just occasional social drinking. He''s used to drinking being something to watch out for. I think both of you probably reacted to what you were used to more than what was actually happening.

I''m not sure where to go now. If it were me with my BF, we''d talk about it after we''d had some time to figure out just what each of us were thinking. (But then, we''re one of those jargon-y couples that says, "When you said x, I felt y, so I reacted by doing/saying/thinking z.") This may be an issue you guys need help with if both of you have been conditioned to react so negatively so quickly to what was, it seems, a fairly harmless situation.

Did he ever attend an Al-Anon meeting? Has he ever been around people that have had to deal with the same issues/attitudes towards alcohol? It may help...

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 3/13/2008 4:01:46 PM
Author: Aloros
I''d just let it go. I think it''s perfectly normal in a healthy relationship to once in a while take something the wrong way, or to snap at one another over something harmless. It probably wasn''t the best idea to escalate the situation by making as if to leave, but what''s done is done, and the argument is over.

Don''t stress! You shouldn''t have to feel like you have to do everything perfectly or things won''t work out. We all say things we don''t mean to our loved ones. It doesn''t mean that it''s right, or ok, but the fact is we are all human.

Honestly? I think you both overreacted. A ''look in your eye''? How vague is that? Unless you shot him a real honest-to-god dirty look, I don''t see how he could infer closet-drinking from that.

Yeah...I guess. You know how it is when you''ve had a few and certain things seem like a good idea but aren''t in retrospect....

I didn''t give him a dirty look at all. When he made that comment, I was sitting in bed, reading Marie Claire. I just looked up at him, since he was standing by the bed at the time. I do know that sometimes if I have a buzz going, I get glassy-eyed. He did say one time that he always knew when his ex was on something by her "crazy eye." His ex showed up at his mother''s wake and funeral (she was toasted both times, BTW), and I know what he means by "crazy eye" in context to her. And I don''t have to closet drink around him. Like I said, he knows that sometimes, I like my glass of whiskey before I go to bed. And this is literally before bed. Kids are asleep, everything that needs to be done that night is, not going anywhere until AM, etc. He''s had one with me! I did say something to him one time that if it bothered him, I wouldn''t do it anymore. And he said he didn''t care; it was no big thing to him.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[surfgirl]

sandia, weren''t you going to get some counseling for yourself? I think you should. And I think your BF should too. Both of you seem to be bringing a lot of baggage into this relationship (ex''s, family substance abuse issues, etc.) and I honestly dont think either of you will have a successful relationship with each other or anyone else, unless you both address your issues, both as a couple and as individuals. You''ve been going through a rough time lately and I just dont see your issues going away and I am a strong supporter of getting professional assistance in times of need. Friends can only say/do so much but a trained professional counselor can make all the difference in helping you both to understand why certain things are the way they are, and how to change them for the better.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 3/13/2008 4:06:10 PM
Author: princesss

Okay, I really think this was more than a flare up of *his* issues with his ex, or *your* issues with yours. It was both. You''re used to being on the defensive about drinking, even just occasional social drinking. He''s used to drinking being something to watch out for. I think both of you probably reacted to what you were used to more than what was actually happening.

I''m not sure where to go now. If it were me with my BF, we''d talk about it after we''d had some time to figure out just what each of us were thinking. (But then, we''re one of those jargon-y couples that says, ''When you said x, I felt y, so I reacted by doing/saying/thinking z.'') This may be an issue you guys need help with if both of you have been conditioned to react so negatively so quickly to what was, it seems, a fairly harmless situation.

Did he ever attend an Al-Anon meeting? Has he ever been around people that have had to deal with the same issues/attitudes towards alcohol? It may help...

I can see that. A lot of his commitment-related issues are because of his ex. I have said point blank to him, "I am not Beth. WHAT do I have to do to get you to see that?!" As to last night, yeah, I think I saw some of my ex there. I don''t confuse him with my ex and usually know when I am reacting to past BS.....but yeah. My ex used to create WW3 if he suspected me of drinking. We''re talking NORMAL drinking. For example, we bought the alcohol for our reception and couldn''t return the unopened bottles. We gave away the whiskey and we brought the wine home. We had something like 8 table-sized bottles of red and 10 white. So 18 bottles, which we put in our pantry. Almost a year after our wedding, there were 5 or 6 bottles left. And he demanded to know why they were gone "so quick." Well, 12 bottles of wine in a year = 1 bottle per month. And some of those were consumed with help (girlfriends over on Girls Night, which I would have when he played in his golf league). He accused me of being alcoholic because of those 12 bottles. In retrospect, that was silly on his part and silly on mine for even letting him bully me with that....but you see now where I get that from.

I don''t think he ever has gone to Al-Anon. Now that you mention it, I am wondering WHY NOT. He''s told me stories about not only his ex, but former band members (he''s had the same band for 20+ years) with problems. One of his good buddies IS a bona-fide alcoholic....the guy is a nice person, but I have never seen him sober at all, and he''s close to losing his license from having so many DUIs.

What baffles me is WHY he reacted like he did. I asked him about that this morning. I said, "Look. We have drunk together before. You know I drink - I don''t hide that fact and never did. Remember when we first started dating and you thought it was funny that we like the same brand of whiskey? When we go to camp [he has a vacation cabin], you, your cousins and me get funny after all the kids are in bed. And you''re in a biker band, for Chrissake! Why is this a problem sometimes and not other times?"

He said, "Well, this is what I meant by ''you are black and white and I am gray'' [previous conversation about how we see our worlds]. I don''t know why it bothers me sometimes and sometimes not. It''s a gray area."

So....what? Am I supposed to be responsible for his untreated gray area. As a previous poster said, "Don''t let him make you feel bad." Well, like I said, I didn''t until this happened....

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[KCCutie]

I''m sorry you had to go through that and that you feel so bad about all this but really I think you have beat yourself over the head enough and it''s time to just let it go.

It sounds like after having some time to think about it your BF realized that he pushed your buttons, and you realize you pushed his by saying you were leaving. I think you should look at this a learning experience for both of you. I''ve had these kinds of little tiffs with my SO and felt horrible about them as well but each time I learned something about him and about myself and about us and I think it made our relationship stronger. Now I can see the writing on the walls and when it seems like something that might cause a tiff might happen again we both know what to do and how to get through it. If you''ve both learned from this (and I think you have) then just file away the info and move on. IMO no real harm was done you talked it out, now you can go back to where you left off before.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 3/13/2008 4:36:00 PM
Author: surfgirl

sandia, weren''t you going to get some counseling for yourself? I think you should. And I think your BF should too. Both of you seem to be bringing a lot of baggage into this relationship (ex''s, family substance abuse issues, etc.) and I honestly dont think either of you will have a successful relationship with each other or anyone else, unless you both address your issues, both as a couple and as individuals. You''ve been going through a rough time lately and I just dont see your issues going away and I am a strong supporter of getting professional assistance in times of need. Friends can only say/do so much but a trained professional counselor can make all the difference in helping you both to understand why certain things are the way they are, and how to change them for the better.

I do go to counseling but don''t have an appointment until next week. I will definately bring this up then. I have also been trying to get him to go with me, but he says repeatedly that he doesn''t have the time or that he doesn''t think it''s necessary. So, as I tell him a lot, I''m not going because I think I''m so perfect and have nothing to work on. I''ve gotten a lot of clarity from things my counselor''s said/asked me to think about.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I agree with Surfgirl that the best option for both of you is to try counseling to get over the baggage from your exes.

Also, I''m going to go out on a limb here and say that I think there is some underlying resentment from both sides that is causing you to bicker over things you wouldn''t normally bicker about. I think that you truly are upset that in order to stay in this relationship, you have to give up wanting to be married. And I think he''s frustrated with how much pressure he''s been under lately. I only say that because I remember that stage--I resolved that the relationship was more important to me than marriage and that I was going to let marriage go. I''m not saying this to be negative at all, but that lasted about 2 weeks before I realized that I couldn''t be happy in a relationship that forced me to give up something that was important to me. The bottom line is that I was angry at him and it came out in every possible way. Angry he didn''t put the dishes away, angry if he was late and especially angry if he told me I was too angry for him to want to propose.

Anyway, I just think that the baggage both of you carry coupled with your underlying frustation over the limbo situation can make you much less patient than you normally would be. Don''t beat yourself up over it.

 

[surfgirl]

well, if he''s refusing to go for counseling, then I''d say you have a bigger decision to make, which is: Do you really want to spend the rest of your life, paying for the mistakes of someone else while your "partner" refuses to seek help to deal with his own issues that are impacting your relationship. I''d talk to the counselor about it. Perhaps you can get him to accompany you to your counseling session, so you can talk to him about these issues in a "controlled" setting and under the guidance of a professional. Maybe if you couch as you want him to go to "your" session, that would get him in the door? Then, if he appears receptive, the counselor could talk to him alone and see if he''s willing to come in by himself?

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

From what you said, I do not think he meant it to be accusatory at all, more curiosity fueled. If he walked up to the edge of the bed and said, “Look at you! You have been drinking, you have the same crazy eye as my ex wife!” then yeah, you could say he was comparing you and insulting you. If you really want to give this relationship an honest try, you are going to have to learn to let go of the chip you have on your shoulder regarding his ex wife. He’s with you because you are NOT his ex wife, right? You gotta let the ex wife situation go. She’s a bad person. She’s a bad mother. You know it but more importantly HE knows it. I think a lot of the ex wife comparison is put into play by your own insecurities which are, naturally, heightened right now due to recent events.

Try and get back to the mindset you had when you were on vacation with him. Put his ex wife out of your head and elevate yourself above her in your own mind. I do not think he needs any further convincing of the fact that you are a much better, stable, loving, secure person. Do not compare yourself to her, do not talk bad about her….if your man needs to vent about her, let him vent but move on after. The more you dwell on her the more you are going to be convinced that every single comment is a comparison. It is not healthy for you and if you continue to lash out at his every comment or observation and turn it into him comparing you to his ex wife, you are certainly going to run the relationship right into the ground.
As far as the grey area is concerned you have every right to ask for further explanation especially if it is going to help avoid potential conflict and allow you to understand each other better. I can understand “getting funny” when you are at camp which I imagine is like a little vacation. I can understand having a few drinks if you are out with friends. But some people, especially those who do not drink after a stressful day, can not understand people who do. I am not a big drinker but on occasion I have made a cocktail to go with my dinner or had a coffee drink after dinner and added a splash of brandy and it is not unusual for my SO to ask if everything is okay. I’ve learned that he’s not demeaning me or my choice to have a cocktail, he is simply making sure there isn’t some underlying issue that I am trying to ignore by having a drink or two.

 

[bee*]

I would really try as surfgirl suggests, to get him to go to a counseling session with you. I don''t know how he can accuse you of having a look in your eye. You''re a grown woman, you''re allowed to have a drink! I doubt that he will get over his ex unless he gets some professional help. It''s not like you were dancing on the rooftops naked-you were lying in bed with a cup of tea!! I hope that he will agree to go to a session as I so want things to work out for you sandia.

 

[HollyS]

Bridget,

I urge the two of you to go to a counselor -- together. Now. If you really want this relationship, and if he really wants this relationship, you have to let go of the baggage from the prior fiasco relationships with your exes. Without quality counseling, and some hard work by both of you, I''m afraid I don''t see it working out. There is way too much drama, maybe not everyday, but often enough that it is poison to your relationship. Neither of you trust the other to be the person you need in your life; and you can''t continue to mince your way through each other''s minefield.

I don''t want to hurt your feelings by suggesting this course of action. I do think you deserve better than you have allowed yourself to believe you can have. Maybe he is the right guy - - just not in his (or your) present state.

 

[Hera]

Date: 3/13/2008 3:43:41 PM
Author:sandia_rose
I posted about this on another thread, but something that was said on the Living Together Before Marriage thread made me repost this as its own topic. You ladies always give good advice, which is why I am posting here (my two best girlfriends are also at work now....otherwise, I'd talk it over with them):

If you've been reading my posts, my BF and I have been on the roller coaster ride lately. But I decided that he's who I want. We had a tough 6 months, then we had a great almost-week vacation away which went well, and things had been getting better since we got back. I had a lot of time during my vacation to think and make up my mind about the relationship. I'm not going to complain about commitment anymore -- because I am choosing to stay in this relationship as opposed to push for more than he's willing to give me. And I also realized that I like him in my life and don't want to walk. If we get engaged, great! If not, then I have to be happy with that. And as I said, things have been going better.....until last night. Stupid STUPID me had a couple of drinks last night and I blew something out of proportion that I shouldn't have. I had gone to bed before him and was sitting up reading with a cup of tea. He took a shower, came into bed, looked at me and said, 'Are you OK?' I said, 'Yeah, fine. I'm really tired.' And he said, 'Have you been drinking?' I said, 'I had a few. Why, what's the problem? The kids are in bed and so am I right now. I'm not bothering anybody.' And then he said, 'Well, the look in your eye just rubbed me the wrong way. It's like you're closet drinking.' And I said, 'I am not. It's not like you don't know I drink now and then -- and I'm drinking green tea right now. And I can't control the look in my eye.' And he said, 'Well, it just rubbed me the wrong way.'

This was probably the Long Island Iced Tea, but I got very, very annoyed at him. I snapped with, 'I am sick of having to live by your ex's standards.' That is not what he meant by 'rubbed me the wrong way,' but it's how I took it. My BF has never said that I can't drink in his house -- he drinks occasionally as well. He said one time that he's leery of people who drink more than 1 or 2, because he's been involved with people with problems. But he drinks and know I do - this is not a secret. I don't have a problem, it's obvious that I don't, and I feel like I have to bend over backwards to prove that I don't have one. My BF's ex, as I've often posted, has alcohol and substance issues. And I've been down the 'proving' road before and promised myself I'd never go there again. My ex husband's father was a bad alcoholic, and as a result, my ex could not stand anyone drinking at all. The one or two times during our marriage that he saw me buzzed were treated as federal offenses, and maybe I was reacting to that memory. Anyway, I went to grab my overnight bag and almost walked out because I got annoyed, until he told me to just go home....and then he rethought it and asked me to come to bed.

Obviously, I felt like an @ss this morning. I knew what I did and said and was contrite. His take on it was, 'You were buzzed and the drama wouldn't have happened if you weren't....but let's just put it aside and move on.' He also said, 'I don't know why it rubbed me the wrong way - you did nothing wrong. It's not like I'm a saint. Maybe it's both our conditioning. And remember, YOU upped the ante by saying you were leaving...so I snapped back by telling you to just go.' But on the other hand, with his ex's substance problems, I feel like I'm not allowed license to be a human being. IMO, there is nothing wrong with a few drinks at the end of (what was for me) a stressful day at work. I'm a responsible adult who has a good job, I do not drink every day and rarely am buzzed if I do, and if I am, I don't bother anyone else, drunk dial, drink and drive, etc....but I said as much last night: I am tired of having to feel like I have to be over-the-top perfect to compensate for what his ex put him through. I said to him, 'If something is a problem to you, then make me aware of the rule and how you want me to handle it. I don't know what I did wrong.' He says I did nothing wrong but shoot off my mouth and overreact, and that again, since he drinks, he can't very well tell me not to.

I dunno what to think of myself/the situation/. I feel bad today (emotionally bad, not hung-over bad...I wasn't that gone). What's that phrase my mom used to use, 'I'm not punishing you for X - you do a good enough job yourself.' Yes, I know that overreacting was stupid and immature and didn't need to happen.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, too? Should I just let this go? I'm worried because my BF and I are spending a lot more time together lately before making the decision to move in together, and I'm worried/paranoid that I wielded some damage.

Bridget in Connecticut.

This does sound like you're overreacting and getting defensive at what I would call a normal question a significant other/spouse would ask if you normally don't drink before you go to sleep.

As for living together, I don't really understand why spending a lot more time with him before moving in together would be a bad thing. I feel that is part of a normal progression towards living together so a warning bell went off for me when I read that line. I believe a healthy relationship will not be harmed by the occasional snapping. However the issues of both commitment (how long can you go putting your wants to the side and still maintain your self respect) and the baggage of your past relationships are not good for your realtionship.

You can put a band aid on your relationship by going on vacation and by sweeping your wants under the rug but unless you truly work out your issues they will always eventually bleed through the surface.

 

[peridot83]

I agree w/ the others about couple counseling. You both need to be able to discuss your issues in a neutral space and work through them. So some thoughts:

1. People are very sensitive to power issues in therapy. Your BF may be v. reluctant to see your personal psychologist because he feels that person is "tainted" by your point of view. If possible, you may want a new psychologist for the both of you.

2. IF you can''t get him to go to therapy at all. That''s a serious red flag for me. It either shows that:
a. He doesn''t actually want to put work into the relationship (i.e. acknowledge his own faults and work on them)
b. He refuses for you to take the lead, or take your advice, in the relationship (i.e. if its not his decision y''all aren''t doing it)

3. I''d like to share a really sad story I heard on NPR which might give you some perspective. There was a comedian who married and divorced his wife 3 times. That''s right, the same person, 3 times. They had suffered through the death of a child, and other issues, and the relationship had been kinda shaky from the start. He''d always leave..but then he''d always come back...

After being together off and on for + 20 yrs, he moves out again and has a new gf. He then finds out he has cancer. What does he do? He says he doesn''t want to burden his gf with this, so he breaks up with her..and moves back in with his ex-wife!!! Since she did "such a good job" with his son when he had leukemia.

His ex-wife cares for him for a yr or 2 until he recovers (talk about SAINT!). However, once he finishes chemo, the comedian immediately calls up his gf and leaves his ex-wife again. The comedian acknowledges that his ex-wife probably hoped he would stay after chemo. But you know, hey, he didn''t encourage her in that idea....

LESSON: No matter how perfect you are, guys can be a**holes, and tiptoing around him, trying to be perfect so that he''ll stay...IT DOESN''t matter what you do. You can be a saint, and if he''s not committed - he''s not committed. IF he won''t put in the effort, if he won''t go to therapy and work on your issues, you are worth more than being on that type of roller coaster.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 3/13/2008 10:16:49 PM
Author: peridot83

3. I''d like to share a really sad story I heard on NPR which might give you some perspective. There was a comedian who married and divorced his wife 3 times. That''s right, the same person, 3 times. They had suffered through the death of a child, and other issues, and the relationship had been kinda shaky from the start. He''d always leave..but then he''d always come back...

After being together off and on for + 20 yrs, he moves out again and has a new gf. He then finds out he has cancer. What does he do? He says he doesn''t want to burden his gf with this, so he breaks up with her..and moves back in with his ex-wife!!! Since she did ''such a good job'' with his son when he had leukemia.

His ex-wife cares for him for a yr or 2 until he recovers (talk about SAINT!). However, once he finishes chemo, the comedian immediately calls up his gf and leaves his ex-wife again. The comedian acknowledges that his ex-wife probably hoped he would stay after chemo. But you know, hey, he didn''t encourage her in that idea....

LESSON: No matter how perfect you are, guys can be a**holes, and tiptoing around him, trying to be perfect so that he''ll stay...IT DOESN''t matter what you do. You can be a saint, and if he''s not committed - he''s not committed. IF he won''t put in the effort, if he won''t go to therapy and work on your issues, you are worth more than being on that type of roller coaster.

It makes me sad to think that anyone would take away from this story, or Bridget''s, that "guys can be ********." Women and men are both capable of being jerks and I don''t think anything she described is related to her boyfriend being male, it''s about the problems they have, as a couple, and females can and do exhibit as much strangeness ("I don''t like the look in your eye") as men do.

Bridget, every post of yours speaks of the lack of comfort that exists in your relationship. He''s not "feelin'' it" you don''t know if you want to go on vacation with him, his ex''s picture appears and sets you off, etc. Relationships can be difficult, but they shouldn''t be uncomfortable, especially not as often as yours appears to be (remember we only know what you share with us). I really hope the two of you go to counseling together with the kind of counselor who believes it is his or her job to make it so you don''t won''t need him or her sooner rather than later, either because he/she is going to give you two the tools you need to communicate effectively and co-exist happily, or the strength to leave if you can''t be happy/comfortable together.

 

[peridot83]

I''m willing to say then "people can be selfish creatures" if my earlier comment upset you. IMHO, commitment in a relationship is not shown by a person''s physical presence, but the effort they''re willing to put in.

So he''s willing to have you around...that''s great...but that does not make a successful relationship. It''s all very understandable: he''s going through a lot, he doesn''t have the emotional energy to deal. At some point though, being understanding, and sympathetic, and giving him that free pass doesn''t further your relationship or give you what you want.

That''s all I meant by the NPR story...is yes be understanding, yes be compassionate, but also understand that understanding and compassion will not make him look into the mirror and see his issues or make him commit. You don''t want to be on that train of everytime you fight, everytime you forget something, you worry the relationship is going to be over, or that he''ll walk, etc. It''s exhausting.

 

[moderatelypoorstudent]

Hi Bridget,
First: please let me know if I am out of line in any way. I have read a few of your posts, but I do not know you and can come across as a bit blunt. Feel free to correct me or tell me to shove off.

I agree with a lot of the other posters that you two should consider counseling very strongly, particularly him with all his baggage from his past relationship. And I think it''s fine if you''ve decided you want to stay with him and stay unmarried, if you are indeed ok with not getting married.

I''d like to add that when I read your story: it sort of sounds like you two are both attempting to re-establish in some ways a power balance in your relationship, since things have definitely shifted in the aftermath of your recent issues about getting married.

To me, his saying something just rubbed him the wrong way, instead of believing you when you said you were fine: "I disapprove of how you conducted yourself, and I DO NOT CARE the reason why. Fix it!" (It does not matter in this case if you gave him a look or he just thinks you gave him one)

Your reaction: to grab your bag and run seems to say: I am DONE proving myself to you, you should be working hard to woo me back since I am a great catch (and indeed, you are).
And yes, if he had run out and begged you to stay it would in a way reaffirm that he is chasing you and it is a game, but not entirely. In my opinion, it depends on who''s at fault. Whoever is at fault, needs to recognize responsibility and acknowledge that they contribute to how you feel and how you respond. In this case, I think his statement is something that could provoke an argument. Were you overreacting? Maybe, but you two are in a precarious position now, it''s hard not to, so dont go beating yourself up over it. Not to mention: he shot it right back, it wasn''t as though he said: oh let''s talk about this -- he told you to leave.

Truth be told, if this had occurred between my SO and I and then he changed his mind and asked me to come to bed, I''d have left or at least stood there till he apologized. Maybe I''m very stubborn, but to me I am not in my SO''s home as a guest (even though I don''t live there anymore) and if he is willing to act like he can throw me out, then I''m willing to show him I can live without him too.

I also noted: when you two talked about it this morning: he just entirely placed the blame on you. YOU were buzzed, YOU upped the ante, YOU shot off your mouth and overreacted. he "just snapped back." Snapping back is also a choice, I get that it''s a very hard impulse to control but it is still a choice to escalate an argument.

The last thing I want to add is: please please please consider what a great girl you are and remember that it does not matter one ounce how great this man is! If he is making you doubt yourself and apologize all the time and bend over backwards (you apologized today, and he said: let''s forget it instead of I''m sorry too) I think he''s manipulating you into giving him the pursued position in this relationship. Or perhaps, in a less dramatic fashion, he''s showing you that he is not valuing you the way you value him.

In short: he isn''t treating you the way your ideal partner should treat you and all the qualities he''s got on paper... don''t add up to squat.

I understand the influences your exes play in this relationship, but there is also a lot of patterning being laid out by the two of you abuot where you each stand here and I hope that''s not obscured by your rationalization about the past influences. I hope it works out somehow!

 

[LaraOnline]

Hi Sandia,

It must be hard to re-establish yourself romantically, with integrity, after life has played out a couple of earlier crazy cards to both you and your partner.
I am not going to try and better the excellent advice that you have received from the other women posting here, but I will tell you the thoughts that struck me:

1. My husband is always very kind to me. Very occasionally, he will be cranky and, oddly, tell me to shut up. It''s mostly because he is still wound up from work.
2. When we have words, or when I am upset and say something nasty (only very occasionally) he will usually let it pass. For example, should I storm out of the house, he will say nothing and be relaxed when I return.
3. He never brings up the past. He never, never picks a fight.

Why am I telling you about me, when we should be talking about you? Because being with a kind, relaxed person has been an interesting experience, and it can be a healing one.

Why worry? Why bring up difficult issues from the past?

It sounds very ''Zen'', but if you love each other and are truly ready to move on, perhaps there won''t often need to be criticism and comparison to any past.

You might ask each other for advice, but ''constructive advice'' might be helpfully and positively framed.

Perhaps, after years of struggling (separately) with nasty inter-relating stuff, you both might be finding it a little difficult to break out of silly, destructive, accusing patterns of relating.

Perhaps you need to re-learn how to trust love, and how to be kind to each other. But, if you already feel you are at the stage of intimacy where you really need/should be married to feel you have the integrity /respect you need, perhaps he''s just not on the same page.

You shouldn''t have to feel like you''re out on a limb all the time, it''s not fair.
You don''t have to apologise for not wanting to rescue someone.

But then, if he needs rescuing (''a look in your eye'', ''a closet drinker'' is pretty accusing), perhaps he isn''t ready to marry, either. He sounds like he has issues to sort! Sometimes, depending a bit on the counsellor I guess, counselling doesn''t suit some people. It wouldn''t be the deal breaker for me, necessarily, his not getting counselling.

But your interaction must improve, and if he won''t get counselling, he will have to look deeply within himself!

You must put your own needs first, and treat YOURSELF with kindness. Don''t go accusing yourself!!! And he must treat you with kindness as well. With no crazy accusations!

I hope you find all our responses helpful.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 3/13/2008 11:53:37 PM
Author: peridot83
I''m willing to say then ''people can be selfish creatures'' if my earlier comment upset you. IMHO, commitment in a relationship is not shown by a person''s physical presence, but the effort they''re willing to put in.

So he''s willing to have you around...that''s great...but that does not make a successful relationship. It''s all very understandable: he''s going through a lot, he doesn''t have the emotional energy to deal. At some point though, being understanding, and sympathetic, and giving him that free pass doesn''t further your relationship or give you what you want.

That''s all I meant by the NPR story...is yes be understanding, yes be compassionate, but also understand that understanding and compassion will not make him look into the mirror and see his issues or make him commit. You don''t want to be on that train of everytime you fight, everytime you forget something, you worry the relationship is going to be over, or that he''ll walk, etc. It''s exhausting.

Peridot, my thoughts on the subject don''t mean you should have to reword yours. It just struck me that you jumped to the conclusion that "men are ********" based on the Bridget''s post and the story you heard on NPR. My wording, that it makes me "sad" was a bit off the mark, chalk it up to a long day and a tired brain. I just believe that people choose how they are treated and I thought it was great that Bridget has decided that while she wants marriage she wants the man more and she''s "not going to complain about commitment anymore -- because I am choosing to stay in this relationship as opposed to push for more than he''s willing to give me." She''s choosing to accept this and I''m giving her the benefit of the doubit that she does not think her boyfriend is a jerk or she wouldn''t stay with him. I just think the whole "male are jerks" stereotype washes away a lot of responsibility that human beings have to be kind to and honest with one another in relationships. And I totally agree that commitment requires a whole lot more than physical presence but if she''s content to accept the commitment (dating no marriage) that he''s willing to give, I say more power to her. Anyways, my thoughts on the negative male stereotype are neither here nor there in relation to Bridget''s post so I''ll stop hijacking now. Sorry, Bridget.

 

[mimzy]

i agree that counseling would probably do you guys some good, but in the meantime...

when these little moments of tension happen, you (and probably him, but i don''t know his take on it) need to stop immediately going to "that place". that place being where you look at the situation with a big old spotlight named "the ex wife". take it for what it is, and don''t try to decipher some hidden meaning or innuendo from it. someone before me said that normal relationships have these little tiffs all the time and they don''t escalate, and that is so true. if he has never expressed dislike of you having a drink or two before bed, what would make you think that he took offense to it that particular nite?

my best advice is to have enough faith in him that his ex wife isn''t constantly on his mind (like it probably is on yours) and that he really is reacting to YOU, not you in the context of her. and whenever he asks a question or makes a comment like he did, react lovingly. "you had a few drinks?" giggle a yes and give him some smooches and tell him it''s been a long day.

that being said, there have definitely been times that i have done something or my FI has done something that in a very bad way reminded each other of a past serious ex. we know better than to take it personally: unless it is something that is at the very core of who we are, we know that it was a passing occurrence and just a bad coincidence, and we don''t blame each other for remembering the bad in the other person. because sometimes it is just unavoidable to be reminded of something bad from the past.

good luck, and big hugs. don''t let this wear too heavy on your mind!

 

[sandia_rose]

THANK YOU, Ladies, for giving me perspective on this situation. I think that I'm overly sensitive to a lot of things lately - combination of our roller coaster and the fact that, yes, his ex is never far from either of our headspaces. There is a lot more to the ex situation than I posted/want to post, but the short form is that he's getting the courts involved with regard to her lack of mothering / inability to stay clean and sober. He's given her enough chances to straighten out and do the right things for the kids, and that hasn't happened. He made a comment to me last night with regard to his daughter. He said, "Do you realize that when she needs something Dad can't provide, she looks to you?" For example, last year, I had to explain the facts of life to her because her mother didn't do it, she got her first period and my BF was clueless as to how to explain monthly female hygiene to a little girl. And I said, "Yeah. But I'm not her mother." And he said, "No, you're not. But I'm grateful she has an adult female around that can at least point her in the right direction, because her mother isn't worth diddly in that department." That meant a lot that he said that to me - it confirms that he doesn't see me in the same light as his ex and that, yeah, the whole incident of the other day was a silly thing.

His ex is a big topic of discussion whether we like it or not. If it's not old baggage coming up, it's fireworks that stem from her messing with their daughter's head. And on a personal level, like I'd said, his ex was so over-the-top bad that she's soured him on a lot of things. I realize that we're all a product of our histories and that the guy is pretty shell-shocked from 20 years of her insanity.....but there is also a little gremlin on my shoulder that says, "Why should you pay for her mistakes? You know that his commitment phobia is her doing, not yours....." He's admitted that he only intended to get married once in his life and that his divorce was a hard pill to swallow.....and that he does want to settle down again...but is still getting over the previous situation (not in terms of feelings for her, but in terms of wanting to get married again and not being terrified to). And like I said, I want him more than I want marriage, so if this is how it has to be, then that's OK for now. I'll revisit it if I find myself not feeling OK with it.

I do keep mentioning counseling to him...but he has to come to that conclusion himself. In the meantime, I'm going to keep going like I have been. Gotta do it for me. My counselor is definately going to earn her dime next week. Have to ask her what I can do to not let this ex fallout affect me and make me paranoid. I apparently did blow the whole buzz incident out of proportion, because life/things are normal right now. No resentment, attitude, etc.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Codependent Gal]

I hope that you can truly be happy with him even though it means giving up hope of getting engaged or married any time soon. I am just going to offer a bit of my own personal experience because I too thought that I could be happy with my boyfriend after giving up my desire to be married.

It didn''t work. We were at a breaking point. I decided that I could not wait even one more day to be engaged and he couldn''t stand even one more day of my pressuring and fighting with him. I thought that telling him that we should break up would make him make up his mind. He never said that he didn''t want to get married, he just said that he wasn''t ready YET and that he didn''t know when he would be ready. I suggested that we break up and he agreed. That lasted all of six hours and I came back crying saying that I would wait for him to be ready and I even thought to myself that I could stay with him without bringing up engagement for a while and see what would happen.

That lasted all of four days until a friend of ours announced his engagement, and I realized that I didn''t want to give up my desire to be married and that he was probably never going to do it. We went out to dinner and we had a good time, at the end of the night we talked. I was sad, dejected and just tired of even talking about getting married. I was mentally prepared to end the relationship and honestly, it was pretty relieving to realize that I was really serious this time. He wanted me to stay with him that night, but I didn''t. I think that he could tell that that I was ready to move on. There was no more fighting and I wasn''t giving him another ultimatum. I just told him that I couldn''t do it anymore.

He started shopping for a ring the next day. He was promised me that a proposal is coming by mid May and I believe him. I am not sure exactly what went on his mind that night, but it seems like some switch was flipped inside of him. He has even told some of our friends that he is going to propose soon. I wish that it didn''t have to be so difficult, but it was. And, I really think that we are going to be very very happy!

 

[beebrisk]

I guess I''m trying to figure out why, when your BF said "you have a look in your eye" you immediately associated the statement with some drama between him and his ex?

Isn''t it just possible that he did see something in YOUR eye?

By blowing up at him, you accused him of transferring the ''stuff'' with his ex-wife onto you. Instead of asking him why, or engaging him in a conversation about the basis for his statement or observation, you escalated it into more drama.

While he and his ex apparently have a lot of baggage, it sounds to me like you are are dragging a bit of your own.

I''ve been reading your posts for some time now. From everything you''ve written (and might I speak honestly, your posts are always lengthy and angst-filled) it really sounds to me like you two are so wrong for each other. Poison, really. Sorry, but I just can''t come to any other conclusion.

When your BF''s mom died, you seemed to be more concerned with the photos of his ex-wife you found tucked away in his mom''s house, than with what he was going through.

Then there was the issue on Valentine''s Day when he called you and told you that when it came to your relationship he "just wasn''t feeling it".

Now, something as simple and innocuous as "I see a look in your eye" becomes another dramatic upheaval.

You may love him dearly, and you may not want to walk away, but I''m not sure why you would want to live this way? Aside from the recent trip you two just went on, it doesn''t even sound like you guys really have fun or enjoy being together!

I would think if you guys really -really- communicated there would be no reason to accuse him of dragging his ex into every conflict the two of you have.

With an 8-year old son in the picture, I would urge you not move in together and drag your child into what sounds like a really dysfunctional relationship.

Honestly, if things are this hard now, what''s it going to be like if you were living together or married? Two people considering a commitment that big should be, AT THE VERY LEAST, enjoying each other and sharing many wonderful, warm moments. From all your super-lengthy posts and all the emotional hand-wringing, it just doesn''t sound like a deep, loving relationship to me. It sounds like a co-dependent relationship with all the right ingredients for a disastrous ending.

Sorry, but if this was a great relationship, one that was ready to move into marriage, you wouldn''t be posting on an internet forum looking for advice and reassurance every couple of weeks.

My 2 cents.

 

[diamondfan]

It sounds like his ex is terrible and I am not surprised, since they have a child, that she is on his mind and that things crop up. And he was hurt and disappointed by her. But now he is with you and he needs to see you as a separate being.

Clearly he was reacting to something that has nothing to do with you. And maybe if he was willing to accept that he has his own baggage and go to counseling with you, he might be able to see that. Truly, I get that he would rather not go. But if you told him that it would mean a lot to you, and would he just consider it, he might be willing. I agree that for the most part, someone must want to go to therapy, no pressure. But in the case of couples issues, it takes two to be in the couple, and so if one is feeling something is off, I think it is not wrong to really make clear to the other that this is something important. Trust me, a couples counselor who is good will immediately get to the heart of THAT, and work on it, and might be able to prevail upon the reluctant one to continue coming. Who knows in the long run what occurs, but at least each session is a chance to illuminate things.

The other thing is, if you guys sort of have stylistic differences, could he have the awareness to say during an issue, Oh, Bridget, this is me being gray...pay no attention to me right now and we can talk about it later. That is his burden to take on, and your is to not OVER react, being that you are black and white. He needs to be a bit more clear and you need to be a bit more flexible. If the "rules" are always in flux it is tough for a concrete gal to handle. And, in this case, you might have appeared to be giving him a look though you were not, and he went right to a comment that was loaded, in my view. Things then escalated from there.

I do not disagree with the notion that maybe you do still want marriage and he still feels pressured. Only you yourself know what you are really okay with in terms of being together. If you can truly just enjoy the now, and see what happens with no expectations, great. And I hope he can really accept that as the truth if that is how you do feel...so you guys can just be together and relish in that. However, if you still really want to marry him, the subtle cues of that will be evident, in a bunch of ways, and that might create a powder keg for both of you. Just food for thought, I do not presume to know all about the two of you, but just thinking about how it could occur.


As for the NPR story, that wife was a doormat. She put a revolving door on her heart and he used it time and again. She might love him, but she allowed him to use her repeatedly, so methinks she clearly has some esteem issues. Fool me one, shame on you, fool me umpteen times, shame on me.

 

[Smurfysmiles]

I know for me and my so, I tend to get like your bf did once in a while. I have bipolar depression but not badly enough anymore to need medication. I just occasionally get cranky or snappy once in a blue moon. The other day I was washing dishes and bf said what are you so upset about. I didn''t realize he could tell I was even in a bad mood. Maybe your guy said what he said before really thinking about it the same way I once in a while say something to my so like "what am i supposed to do with this bowl of noodles you made?!" you know? Or maybe it isn''t even that at all. Just thought maybe he might act the same way I do at times for absolutely no reason (well ok there is a medical reason) but you know what I mean, right? I think? Either way, I hope everything works out ok.

 

[Erin]

Date: 3/16/2008 1:09:54 AM
Author: beebrisk
Sorry, but if this was a great relationship, one that was ready to move into marriage, you wouldn''t be posting on an internet forum looking for advice and reassurance every couple of weeks.

I know I come here when I have a problem and need help fixing it. I rarely come here to gush about how googly and shmoopy my man is. And what''s so wrong about seeking advice on an internet forum? I think the gals here give great advice and Sandia is going through a milestone decision in her life. Other women come here for advice on their relationships, too. Gosh, I do it too. Therefore, none of us are probably ready.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 3/19/2008 3:18:37 PM
Author: Starset Princess

I know I come here when I have a problem and need help fixing it. I rarely come here to gush about how googly and shmoopy my man is. And what''s so wrong about seeking advice on an internet forum? I think the gals here give great advice and Sandia is going through a milestone decision in her life. Other women come here for advice on their relationships, too. Gosh, I do it too. Therefore, none of us are probably ready.

Thanks for sticking up for me. I didn''t see beebrisk''s comment as insulting, though. A lot of my confidants are on internet forums, and I''m not ashamed about that at all. I am on a Yahoo group that I''ve been on since 2000, and there are people on there that send me holiday cards and call me on my birthday....but due to distance or age (I have one pal who is in his 70s who can''t travel for health reasons), I''ve never met them F2F. It''s the world we live in today. I do have close girlfriends, but like me, they work the same hours (and you don''t want to talk about personal stuff where your boss can hear), have kids and husbands/BFs and for whatever reasons sometimes can''t talk when I need to talk. So I go to the next best place. Usually, it helps me to hear opinions (agreed - some great advice here!) and then I get my brain around my issue and ultimately figure it out myself.

One thing I try to remember is that all relationships go through ups and downs. I don''t consider my relationship to be worthless because we''ve been through some crap. Heck, my grandparents were married 62 years and are my personal model for a successful relationship. However, there were some times in my childhood where my grandfather p*ssed my grandmother off so bad that she made him sleep overnight on the porch swing and wouldn''t let him in the house. But at the end of the day, they still loved each other.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Delster]

Bridget you''ve gotten great advice here already and I couldn''t add to it, I just wanted to send you my best and say I''m thinking of you!