Raising Cain or raising kids...?

[Nicrez]

Children are getting autonymous at younger ages, and with new found responsibilties and freedoms from past generations, would you say it''s better or worse? Also, how would you discipline an unruly child? What''s allowed nowadays?




I don''t have any yet, but the prospect of being such an important foundation of a child''s future relationships. I don''t want them to be mean, or spoiled or fearful, so what''s a parent to do?

 

[Mara]

Hah! I am the wrong person to ask about disciplining an unruly child...I have a heavy hand.

My youngest sister always got the discipline from me.




Nowadays things are SO different from when we were kids...my mom spanked me practically daily because I was such a handful. Now if you get spanked and you tell another kid, their parent will probably report you for abuse to the school and you get taken away. What has all of this come to?




Greg and I are unsure on our feelings about having children. We are older and don't intend to procreate anyway for at least 5 years. That leaves him at 40 and me at 35 with our first kid. Add in the fact that right now we live very self-gratifying lifestyles...and how do you add a kid into the equation? Lastly, everyone else's kids annoy us because most of them are badly behaved...so while we'd love our little brat, chances are it would annoy everyone else who used to be like us...and that's no way to give back to the world, right?

On the other hand, we both feel very paternal/maternal instincts coming out (we are planning to get a dog later this year) and we would like to have a little child that is a combination of us.

However...honestly, raising a child scares me for many reasons....




I see those teenage kids who shot up schools a few years back. Everyone blames the parents. Some kid gets his girlfriend pregnant. They blame the parents! Parents get blamed for everything nowadays, when in reality, I don't believe that parenting is responsible for everything that could go wrong with your child. Parents most of the time do the best that they know how...and sometimes the kid just goes wrong. What happens then? Can you imagine being the parent of a child who killed another child? Can you imagine being blamed for not raising your child right when you felt like you did the best you could? People always inevitably turn to the parents and their family/household/lifestyles in order to 'figure out' what happened to the bad seed kid who went nutso one day and killed his classmates.




I don't know that I want to put myself under that kind of scrutiny...both scrutiny from MYSELF and also others. I would of course want to be the best parent around. But how do you know when you are doing the right thing? How do you know that you are going to not turn your kid into a spoiled brat or a mean schoolyard bully. It's all subjective parenting.




Anyway, that said...I would believe in spanking my potential kid and doling out basic corporal punishment. I got it when I was little and I turned out fine, don't have any mental scars about being spanked by Mom daily with her pink leather belt. I was a little rambunctious kid and a little physical discipline kept me in line. Some kids need that. Not all of them...Greg was a GREAT child and always under control. He maybe got spanked once by his mom. We both turned out pretty good, we think so anyway.

But with all the scrutiny and rules nowadays?Ay Carumba! Pets seem sooooo much more straight-forward.

Feed and pet...feed and pet.

 

[Nicrez]

Mara, Amen on the pets comment! I think it's much easier to have a dog!!




That said, I was corporally punished too...spanked by mom and dad, and basically I was a good kid with "attitude"...hee hee I was a good kid, and so frightened of my dad as a child, I was so quiet and well behaved (in public). Honestly, I believe in it too, because sometimes being your kids "pal" (for some kids) just doesn't cut it. My BF was probably NEVER spanked, and if so, not much, but he's such a naturally good boy...

Kids are tough to raise, and we know we want them. Family is such a big big thing for us, and eventually when we do, we want to do it right, but how? SIGH...Such a responsibility, but I have to say that parents are a MAJOR factor in children's development, and how they are raised. My family isn't perfect, but through seeing how they acted and reacted to things, I have learned my lessons, either right or wrong. Especially having a very close tight-knit family, it's even easier to pick up things from them, like how to handle situations and how to think morally. I take responsibility for everything I have ever done as an adult and child, but we DO color our children with our actions.




Recently Matata mentioned trouble in her early life, and how she overcame it all. I think that's character that comes from a tough life that hardens you like a diamond, but I wonder if any of that could have been avoided, or is that just destiny? Can we avoid mistakes with our kids, or are they inevitable for the most part...?

 

[mike04456]

Kids are such an enormous hassle and expense that you wonder why anyone does it ... until you have kids of your own.

Most people are much better parents before they have kids than afterward.

Basically, the only way to learn is on the job. Everyone screws it up; you just hope you don't screw it up too badly.




And, no matter how hard you try not to, you will end up parenting much as your parents did, because that's the only experience you have to go by. You just try to highlight their major mistakes and avoid them.

 

[Rank Amateur]

I do not believe that raising kids is any more difficult now that it ever was. The challenges are different, but the net effect is the same. It may even be easier.

 

[Matata]

Whoooeeee, Nicrez, you don't worry about much do you?

I never wanted children and to ensure there were no little surprises, I had myself neutered when I was quite young. So imagine my surprise when I met my now fiance who has 2 boys....two....boys. Oy. After I got over resenting their existence, I actually became quite fond of the little critters (ok, ok, I luv 'em like their my own but I won't admit that to anyone who can identify me in public

). They were 7 and 11 when FH and I first met; they're now 15 and 19. So my "mothering" is sort of second hand but I can share some insights that I hope will help, some I've gained from direct experience with the boys and some from watching their mother and father make mistakes.

Number One: Do not have children until you and your husband are in complete agreement on how you will handle discipline, religion, education, etc. and have informed influential family members that you expect them to honor your parenting philosophy.

Number Two: You and your hubby need to always, always, always support the other in a dispute with the child.

The rest is a crap shoot.

The biggest mistake FH and his ex made with the kids was to threaten punishment but never follow through, or give in quickly when the whining drove them to near suicide. When they came to stay with us on weekends or longer in summer, I never had a problem with them because I always followed through with the punishment. They learned rather quickly that I meant what I said. We're talking rules such as pick up your clothes from the floor, we eat as a family--same room, same table, bathing must occur more than once a month. If they didn't follow the rules, I'd toss their clothes in the trash, take away the cooked meal and leave them to rummage for sustenance, or send them back to their mother if they showed up smelling like skunk. It didn't take long for them to realize that I was immune to the shenanigans they pulled with their parents--and in no time at all, they were angels when they came to stay with us. Drove the mother crazy and I really enjoyed that

Another tip is to find an outstanding pediatrician. My FH is a baby doc and he regularly gives talks and workshops for parents on such topics as surviving baby's first cold, discipline for two to 5 year olds, etc. So finding a baby doc that offers more than check-ups and vaccinations will be a good foundation for your support system.

Cheers,
M.

 

[mike04456]

----------------
On 3/9/2004 5:32:43 PM Rank Amateur wrote:





I do not believe that raising kids is any more difficult now that it ever was. The challenges are different, but the net effect is the same. It may even be easier.
----------------

I'm inclined to think it's easier, despite the hype. We don't have to worry about, say, wild animals, smallpox, bubonic plague, famine, etc. Health care is vastly improved (if expensive), and the social safety net (while not perfect) is something families in the 19th century would have envied.

We have different problems nowadays but I don't think I'd rather be raising my boys in 1904 or 1804.

 

[Mara]

----------------
On 3/9/2004 6:11:13 PM Matata wrote:





They learned rather quickly that I meant what I said. We're talking rules such as pick up your clothes from the floor, we eat as a family--same room, same table, bathing must occur more than once a month. If they didn't follow the rules, I'd toss their clothes in the trash, take away the cooked meal and leave them to rummage for sustenance, or send them back to their mother if they showed up smelling like skunk. It didn't take long for them to realize that I was immune to the shenanigans they pulled with their parents--and in no time at all, they were angels when they came to stay with us. Drove the mother crazy and I really enjoyed that

----------------

I can appreciate what you said about following through, my parents never did and whenever I was grounded, it was for a day or two..instead of a month like they said. So I learned quickly that they would 'forget' that I was in trouble and life would go on. Luckily I wasn't a bad kid so I didn't take advantage. But I knew.

Anyway, curious about what you said about following through and doing things like throwing their clothes in the trash, food etc. Didn't you get crap from the hubby or the ex-wife on doing things like that? I could see heaps of drama coming down from doing stuff like that!! I agree with that school of thought in terms of tough-love, but in terms of KIDS...most parents don't follow through on threats because it would make the kid 'suffer' and they just couldn't bear that...when you threw the clothes away, what did they do? Fish them out or leave them there? What sort of reactions did your hubby give on the treatment of his kids?

When I was a kid my mom tried to 'follow-through' on some items. I hated brussel sprouts and would not eat them. She made me sit there until I did. Well I sat there until 11pm and I didn't eat them. So she sent me to bed. Next time, she fed them to me again. Again I didn't eat them. After that she threw them out. Guess sometimes the kid can be more stubborn than the parent?

If you threw my clothes away, I would have left them in the trash.

I absolutely love the idea of doing things like that for discipline, by the way...hehee.

Maybe why I should NOT have kids?! hehee.

 

[Matata]

Mara,

I just lost the reply I typed. Will repost later, gotta run to a meeting.

M.

 

[Matata]

Ok, Mara, here goes:

A bit of background -- The mom believed that kids shouldn't be denied anything the first 3 years of life, nor should they be given any reason to cry. These kids never had a chance to shed more than a tear or two their first 3 years of life. She comforted them and gave them whatever they wanted when they wanted. And it wasn't until they were 4 years old, respectively, that she tried saying "no" or instilling any form of discipline. The mom lost credibility with me from the beginning (and with her kids, particularly when they got older) because she would whine about them watching too much TV or playing on the computer too much but she had a TV in every room of the house and each boy had their own state-of-the-art computer system with the latest games. She would yell at them for not picking up their clothes and then pick them up herself and play the martyr because she they would not listen to her. After attempting to discipline them, she would purchase an expensive toy to make up for it because she was afraid of losing their love. They do love her, but they don't respect her.

The dad refused to discipline them. His approach was to have thoughtful discussion (a heroic feat when you're talking with a 7 year old) and hope they would catch on to what was expected as they grew older. And he never supported the mother's attempts at discipline even when he knew she was right. When I moved in with him, it was clear that unless I did something to curb the kids' bad habits, my life would be hell. It was an unspoken agreement between us that he would not interfere with my attempts to instill some peace in the house unless he was willing to be proactive and come up with something else that worked.

After watching the parents and kids in action, I knew that whatever tactic I adopted for discipline had to be over-the-top-drama queen in nature to capture the attention of not only the kids, but the parents. And, I had to talk the talk and walk the walk, so to speak, because the kids clearly needed to hear a consistent message from someone who practiced what she expected from others.

The list of rules I established were short and easy to understand. They covered just the basics of courtesy and polite behavior.

There was quite a bit of drama between me and the mother for the first year. I acknowledged her right to raise her kids as she saw fit, but that didn't mean that I had to endure their bad habits.

I only threw their clothes in the trash once. I don't know whether they picked their clothes out of the trash because I didn't check. It didn't make a difference to me at that point -- they either picked them out of the trash and explained to their mom why they smelled so bad or came up with a story about why their clothes went missing. I never had to ask them to pick up their clothes again.

As far as the food goes, at first I made 3 different meals -- one for each boy and one for me and the dad (then I underwent an exorcism and expelled that damned maternal instinct to give in

). There's this crazy phenomena with siblings -- neither will eat what the other likes even if both like the food. I tried letting them choose the menu, they would agree on the food, then when it was served do the sniff test, roll their eyes and proclaim "eeeewwwww this is gross." That's when I agreed that they should not eat what they didn't want to eat and I'd take away their plates. Dad and I would finish our meal and leave to them to rummage through the pantry. I always had peanut butter, luncheon meats or other food on hand they could fix for themselves.

Also, I injected a huge dose of humor in whatever discipline I attempted. Making them laugh at their plight worked like magic.

You're right when you say that parents don't usually follow through on discipline because they don't want their kids to "suffer." But from my perspective, kids suffer greater harm being unleashed on society without a basic understanding of socially acceptable behavior.

Six months after I met the kids, they told me they were glad their parents got divorced. I was a bit taken aback at that and asked them why, and they said because they would have never met me. Whew, I still get teary about that.

Both of the kids tell me they love me and they also tell me they respect me because they know I don't lie to them, I fulfill my promises to them, and I don't expect anything from them that I'm not willing to do myself. I know I had it easy not being the biological parent. I honestly don't know if I would have disciplined differently had I given birth to them. But in the end everything worked out just fine. They are great kids and thanks to me, won't be blowing milk out their nostrils in restaurants while trying to impress a date

 

[pqcollectibles]

Kids should come with instruction manuals!!

When mine were younger NO was THE word in our house. That was eventually replaced by MINE. Whew!, was I glad when that phase passed.

I swatted my kids when they were younger. Just a little sting on the diaper or upper leg. I haven't swatted in many a year now. We went to revoking priviledges. I've only grounded my kids a few times. I try to keep it sensible too. Like a few days or a week tops. Taking phone priviledges away from one daughter is absolute torture for her. Maybe because we started early disciplining the kids, we really don't have much trouble. They are generally well behaved and respectful.

When they got up into school, I adopted a "tell them what they should do but let them make their own choices" approach. If it isn't going to kill them, let them decide. One bitter cold winter day my daughter was headed out for school wearing a dress. I tried to coax her into at least wearing pants under the dress. Take the pants off when she got to school. That wouldn't look right she told me. "What if the bus breaks down?", I asked. "The bus doesn't break down.", she said. And off she went. A substitute bus driver had the route that day. In a tight turn deftly navigated by the regular driver, the sub put the rear of the bus in a ditch over half a mile from the nearest house. (rural bus route) The sub radioed for a backup, but with the cold weather many busses were broke down and the bus company couldn't get a replacement sent for at least an hour. So, the sub decides to have the children walk to the Fire Station nearly a mile away. The kids were already freezing when some passersby happened to stop and give the kids a lift to the Fire Station. My daughter has never forgotten how cold she got that day and always dresses according to the weather. If I had made her wear the pants, she would have never learned that very important lesson.

We have always been firm and the kids respect us. We are going thru teenaged angst and rebellion now. When they begin to push too far, I look at them and say, "You really don't want to go there with me, do you?" I particularly love asking them, "Do you like to eat? Do you like the nice warm house you live in? Do you like the clothes you're wearing?"

When my daughter wanted to go to Homecoming Dance with a boy I didn't approve of, I never said a word to her. I arranged for the car she was riding in to be full so the boy could not ride with her. He had to get his own way to the Dance. My son arranged for every member of the football team that was at the Dance to keep an eye on my daughter's "date". Daughter had a lovely evening with her sweetie, at the Dance, in public. Two weeks later, he was old news, and they parted ways. Why argue with her over a relationship that may not last when I can work around it. I pick and choose my battles with my teens.

Something we did musta been right. Our kids want us there to watch their ball games, listen to their concerts, see them swim, be there when they get their awards, and hug them when they are disappointed. They are robust teens, working to find their way in life, and they still talk to Mom and Dad about important things in their lives. Them bringing their problems and concerns to us speaks volumes to me. They might not always like what they hear from us, but they still talk to Mom and Dad.

 

[fire&ice]

="padding-bottom:0;marginTop:0;marginBottom:0;">----------------
On 3/9/2004 4:41:40 PM Mara wrote:


Pets seem sooooo much more straight-forward.

Feed and pet...feed and pet.

----------------[/quote]


It's not as easy as it sounds. We had to provide references, sign a bunch of documents & be interviewed before we were *granted* the right to *purchase* one of my breeders dogs. In the animal rescue group I volunteer, same applies.

That said, what you put into a dog is what you get out.

And, Mara, nearly all my friends had children late in life. All are interesting happily married successful women (in their own right). Don't know what this all translates into - just an interesting tidbit.

 

[Nicrez]

Wouldn't you say that a loving respectful marraige is essential to raise kids well (in general)? I say that only because I have seen marraiges where the spouse doesn't respect the other (much less their discipline methods) and then there's that rift of "good cop/bad cop" and suddenly one parent becomes the bad one and the other the good one.




So heartening to hear such success stories with kids nowadays, because I have been around too many people damaged by selfish, stubborn, cruel and generally ignorant families. I knew a very attractive guy who was honestly totally damaged as a human. He was the cruellest and most vindictive person, pulling people into his misery because he wanted company. Sad to say, his parents where divorced and bitterly! He was sent to a boarding school in Switzerland and he begged and pleaded deseprately not to go. He always harbored anger, and he lived an angry life. He hated women secretly and I remember the case of a sweet girl who really liked him, but he dated her just to sleep with her saying, "She's a virgin, and not only, she's Asian and I never had an Asian girl" When he effectively broke her heart and she kept calling, he slept with her friend to make her hate him and stop calling...If that isn't evil, I don't know what is! So who's at fault? Him, his parents, society?




I figure it's the damage done as a youth, and without personal strength to fight it or an effective resolution of those problems, it spiraled into an awful person being let loose in this world. Honestly, people with good morals and good personal traits seem to have been those closer to their families, or those who were strong enough to see their weaknesses and change regardless...But how much do parents bear the burden to make these small adorable little children sweet or mean? Like kids who pick on other kids...? I never did, I didn't care, I didn't feel the need to...what are those children lacking that they feel they need to?

 

[Matata]

Nicrez,

Just because people have functioning reproductive organs doesn't mean they should reproduce. I'm an advocate of some sort of screening system for potential parents that includes psychological testing, parental training, genetic screening, and analysis of their financial ability to support a child/children. I know how controversial that point of view is. I'm not suggesting it would solve all of the problems you mentioned, but I suspect it would help some. I just don't believe that reproduction is a fundamental human right.

F&I hit on the issue when describing pet adoption. I have a friend who is a psychologist who went through a 2-year battery of tests in an effort to adopt a child who had been horrifically abused (the alternative was that the child would have spent his life in an institution for the mentally ill; he wasn't mentally ill, but he was emotionally damaged). We have a different standard for adopting a pet or a child. There's something out of sync here.

As I mentioned before, my fiance is a pediatrician and his practice is loaded with examples of how children suffer the consequences when parents are unfit for the responsibility.

Ohhh, if I don't stop now, I'll rant on ad nauseum.

 

[winyan]

----------------
On 3/10/2004 11:28:45 AM Matata wrote:

Nicrez,

Just because people have functioning reproductive organs doesn't mean they should reproduce. I'm an advocate of some sort of screening system for potential parents that includes psychological testing, parental training, genetic screening, and analysis of their financial ability to support a child/children. m.----------------

Matata, I'd agree with all the above *except* financial ability. I've seen households that probably don't have the financial where withall to support one child, never mind large families that I personally would consider great parenting and households.

I'm speaking now as an abused child. My mother would have been, I think, in today's world diagnosed as a bipolar individual. When I was born, she didn't have a concept of a 'baby'. She wanted a doll to play with, and to put on the shelf when she was bored. I was born with multiple birth defects including spina bifida and both my feet were clubbed. She dieted all the time she was pregnant, and refused anything but very light salads. She gained 10 pounds during her pregnancy, and I was born a month premature at about 5 lbs. She wasn't wired to cope w/all my problems. Luckily my Father was. He did all the work to get me 'fixed' so I could live a somewhat normal life. But even then, she resented the burden I placed upon her. She tried many times to kill me, but, luckily her Catholicism saved me whenever I grabbed a statue of the Virgin or a saint. (I learned very early to do exactly that). She was cunning enough never to let my Father see her rages against me, though she was good at raging against him...to the point of physical attacks. He had a job that kept him working all night, 12 hours every night, and never witnessed her attacks against me. I was afraid to tell him, for fear of what she would do (to him) when he was sleeping.

However when she was on the high side of the cycle, she was the mother for which I craved. Living like that is one of the worst things that can happen to a child. I'm not very trusting now, because of this.

Anyway, I just wanted to say, there are worse things then financial shortcomings.

win

 

[Nicrez]

Wow Win! It's amazing to see the things that life puts on some people's plates and hpw everyone overcomes or adjusts to such things. It's so sad to hear about people who need help and never get it, or too late. We all carry our issues into our relationships later on in life.




I was so spoiled with attention and affection (but suffered in other ways I can assure you) and a man I once dated hear me talk about how my dad was when I was younger, and he stated plainly, "I feel bad for whomever marries you! He'll have some serious shoes to fill and a lot to have to do to keep you happy..." Wow, how words come back to bite you!

Win & Matata, you guys are great for sharing your lives and problems with us in such a wise and helpful manner...I always believed that a person can not be solidified without some adversity, so consideringwe are all carbon, I'd say you ladies are Diamonds!!

 

[Mara]

One of the reasons we don't yet have a pet is because our lifestyle doesn't really support that yet. Every time I feel like we are ready to take on a responsibility like that, something else seems to come and consume all our time. I also don't want a pet just to have one...we have to be sure that we can accommodate the extra time that needs to be spent with the pet and really make sure that we can take care of it.




I want a purebred dog so I definitely know the drill in terms of finding a breeder that you like that is reputable, going through their screening process, finding out when they are having puppies, getting on the list to buy one, etc. It's definitely a process--it can take up to a year. We figure we will start looking into it (again) in fall. Last time I was close...we were in line to get a dog last August but with the impending wedding I decided to back off because we were traveling alot and also I knew that the first half of this year was just shot in terms of time!




Also...pets are like kids that never grow up. So alot of responsibility...at least 10 years worth! But we both adore pets.

Greg would love to get a cat, but I am allergic though it would be easier than a dog...however we did compromise on one thing. I was willing to get a slightly older rescue dog for a few reasons, and he really wants a puppy. They are 100% more work but he is adamant and I know he would LOVE a puppy. Soooo that's what we'll go for.




Matata: I like the way you think.

I will have to keep your child-rearing tactics in mind for the future. Funny thing is that you really remind me of my fiance's stepmom...she was younger when she married his father, he had 2 kids....she couldn't have kids of her own and really didn't want them. She was and IS a definite hard-ass and wouldn't put up with their bull...but they are richer for having her in their lives. I actually can relate more to her than their actual mother right now...because Julie is more straight-forward and blunt like I am, which I respect. Greg's mom is alot more 'old fashioned' in that she is very polite and nice, but I can't get a real feel for her *personality* just yet.




Win: Very strong story...I am so glad you were able to live a fruitful life on your terms after all the childhood negativity.

 

[Matata]

Mara,

I had two whippets (look just like a greyhound but they're only knee-high) and I loved having them in my life. But for the 14 years they were alive, we took only 2 vacations without them. You're absolutely correct -- they're like children -- 2-year olds -- that never grow up. My lifestyle was different then. I was willing to spend the time with them that they needed -- and they do need lots of attention. Now, however, I travel a lot and am more involved in the community so I don't have the time to spend with a dog. I have 2 cats but they're more adaptable to having a pet sitter around when I'm gone. But oh how I miss having a pooch. If I were to get another, I'd want a big one --Rhodesian Ridgeback, Irish Wolf Hound, Swiss or Bernese Mountain Dog.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 3/10/2004 1:53:07 PM Matata wrote:

Mara,

You're absolutely correct -- they're like children -- 2-year olds -- that never grow up. -

Actually, some real fact in that. Dogs are said to have the cognitive ability of a 2 year old. They enjoy the same repetive games, etc. But, their sensiblity is highly developed - much, much more than humans. My Therapy dog is said to be so well trained. Yeah, he does some "tricks"; but, his ability to know *what* to do *when* is amazing. I gave him the socialization he needed; but, the rest is *all* him. Can you tell our dogs *are* our children? Though, I promise I don't dress them up & push them in a Pram (witness to this more than a few times).

We have found the best place to screen potential breeders is at an AKC dog show - preferably when the breed you are looking at is the "specialty". You can see how they interact. Who handles their own dog, etc. And, Mara, you are smart to recognize that they are alot of work & you want to do it right. BTW, hubby was alergic to cats until I brought one home (our first pet)

. Yes, it was a petulant impulsive move - but hey - I was 24. He suffered for a few days; and, after that, had no problem. As you know, we live in the country & have several barn kitties who share indoor time. His alergies have never come back.

Regarding adopting an older dog, they can come with some baggage. There is a reason why they were abandoned - some not so good. That said, we have successfully adopted many an older dog at my animal rescue - some way cool ones indeed. We have placed pure bred dogs; but, mostly rely on the breed specific rescue to help.

I think raising children & raising dogs is an Art form. One in which creative juices need to run.

 

[winyan]

You are so right Nic...it's taken me about 25 years to learn to trust my poor long suffering SO.

Not his fault, not mine...a bad childhood does things to your psyche, that are so unfair.

Intellectually I know he loved/loves me, but emotionally I didn't trust.

I think probably the worst case of child abuse comes from the mother, the supposed nurturer.

win

P.S. I lost my daughter when she was a day old, (we were in a car accident when I was 8 months, long story shortened, I lived, she didn't.) What still scares me emotionally, though intellectually I know I'm not my mother, is behaving like her. I'm not sure if One Above spared me from finding out, or if ... I would overcompensate for my own childhood. I take very good care of my pets (both my animals past lived to 18+ and the current one is 8 now) so I don't think I'm cut out to abuse anything, but it's still scary thinking it could be possible.

*sigh*...win

 

[Nicrez]

Win, I believe in divine providence...That everything that happens in our lives in meant to happen for our own benefit, but we need to make the best of that new situation and realzie that this IS for the better...




Sometimes children can be a blessing, and sometimes they just aren't right at the time. Not because you would have been abusive (which I honestly highly doubt for several reasons) but because most likely, it was to prevent the child from having a harder life otherwise, or even for YOUR own growth and well being. If you have ever seen that movie Sliding Doors, it's interestng to think of what life would be like and how different, just by ONE choice or action...




I make it a point to find everything that is out of my control as an opportunity to start a clean slate and make it work to my advantage, even if it means learning from my own mistakes or short comings...




For instance, I have always been a "mover"...Lived in PA, lived in NYC, lived in NJ, and within those states, serveal residences...My postal forwarding sheet looks like my resume....

So, I finally moved in with my BF, and finally found a town and place I liked, a job I was comfortable in, and BAM, he gets a job in CT...we are going to be moving BACK to NYC, where I didn't want to be anymore...But maybe it's for the best. For our best. We are too young to be tired and go home, so maybe the spice of citylife will be injected in us after a hard day's work...?




My point is, having a child or not having a child can be part of a plan. Sometimes I think we can never know the "why", and we are sometimes just the pawns of a bigger game being played. I often used to wonder why I was born....was I going to be some amazing doctor, or some philospher...




Now I think, maybe the child I have one day invents a cure for cancer, or my grandchild does. The future's wide open, and somehow not having that child your opened up too. Maybe that taught you something, maybe that eventually strengthened you and pushed you to help others you normally wouldn't have had time for...




Either way Win, you are a miracle just being so candid about things, and your growth from so many things could not have occurred if you lived an easy and simple life. I am glad you post here, I feel like I am seeing a strength in some of you guys I rarely get to see outside. Thanks guys! (SOmetimes I get all gushy and mushy...sorry!)

 

[winyan]

I agree, Nic, and for those of us who believe, or even half believe in reincarnation, someone suggested perhaps Lauren Noelle just needed that one incarnation ... that one, too short life to fulfill her karma, and then go forward into and part of One Above.

I take comfort in that.

win

 

[Nicrez]

I believe in that as well (though I would be slapped as a Catholic for it!), but that is such a beautiful way to put it. I love her name....what a lovely name!




Again, such things give us strength if we know how to make them strengths and not weaknesses, and Win, you could write the book!

 

[AGBF]

Nicrez,

If his job is in Connecticut, I assume living in NYC is a choice? A great many people in southwestern Connecticut work in NYC!! It is rare to find someone who "reverse commutes"!!!

Deb-in-CT

 

[Nicrez]

Funny, isn't it? Most people who commute to the city have a house and kids and yards...I WILL, but right now, we are too young and too "old acting" to do it.




We had the choice to move to CT, and that would be great for him, but I would NOT be able to commute to work so much! I would effectively quit my job, and as much as money isn't the issue, boredom and my need to be in a busy place IS...




As I see it, we rent (I HATE RENTING) in NYC and waste a whole bunch of money, but try saving some to buy a house later. He works there for a few years (3-4) and when we start having kids, we can always buy a house up there, close to his job, and I can leave mine, have some babies, and maybe take those GIA course I always wanted to. Maybe I can do that while I am in the city, then by the time I move out to CT I can open up an appraisal shop at home...Who knows?

But either way the house and yard idea is in my plan, but not just yet. We would need to travel and enjoy our young lives first a bit more...enjoy eachother's company being married before the kids hit...

 

[Mara]

Nic, I highly agree on enjoying yourself before breeding...

 

[Nicrez]

You know some people don't. I knew of a person who had kids early in and they started to have problems with their So realting and being intimate. Their marraige suffered and then they had kid #2...

Great! Now you have two kids who are living in an emotional war zone, and when the kids leave, if the relationship wasn't well built it crumbles apart like a house of sand. Some people should never breed, but that's another story!

Me? I would rather get all my kicks out of the way, THEN have kids, and while they are grwoing up remenisce about how good it was BEFORE kids, then when they leave, remenisce how good it was WITH kids, and start traveling and doing things as an old couple so we don't get too depressed!!

 

[winyan]

Nic...

Chuckle, actually, before one of the councils of Nicene...(I forget which one, since there were a number of them) Reincarnation was actually thought to be a tenet of the Faith.

Lauren was named after her father (Lawrence) and she was due to be born on 12/24, so Noelle was a natural choice. The accident happened on 10/25, and she was born on 10/26, so we kept the name anyway. (cept my silly SO put it down as Noel (argh, I have a boy cousin named Noel!)

win

 

[MichelleCarmen]

----------------

Me? I would rather get all my kicks out of the way, THEN have kids, and while they are grwoing up remenisce about how good it was BEFORE kids, then when they leave, remenisce how good it was WITH kids, and start traveling and doing things as an old couple so we don't get too depressed!!

----------------

Definetly enjoy your time! How old are you?

For my husband and me, both boys were planned, but yet, we had NO idea how much work raising two young kids would be. My children are 1 1/2 and 3 1/2 and require endless hours of mental and physical stimulation and no matter how many books you read or how much advice you aquire via friends, you'll still don't have any clue about being a mom until you experience parenthood yourself.

There's no way that you can preplan your parenting philosophy (as is suggest above) and then expect to live by these ideologies as you raise your young ones. Lawgem is right in saying, "Most people are much better parents before they have kids than afterward," because couples place unrealistic expectations upon themselves ahead of time and after actually having a baby and finding that this baby wakes up every half hour between the hours of 12 am and 5 am needing to be fed and changed, that suddenly sticking this baby in front of the TV to watch "baby Mozart" while you take a cat nap at 10 am isn't such a bad idea

, so there goes the assumption of being the better parent than every other "bad" parent you know!

Parenting is 100% winging it! Kids evolve at amazing speeds and your best defense is evolving along with your kids. Disapline? I have no idea. We still haven't mastered this. Personally, I found the BEST way to keep my kids behaving well is excellent nutrition and lots of exercise to wear them out so they'll nap in the afternoon rather than fuss and start hitting me because they're cranky, but still they are toddlers and both throw fits regardless of how little sugar we give them. . .lol (and we DO NOT spank, but thus far, haven't found a way to disapline our boys for their actions. . .possibly they're too young for deprivation of TV, Toys, ect., but when older we'll be working this into the main form of punishment.)

Two things that I've realized, in these past three years, are paramount in being a successful parent. . that is having a group of family/friends who support you and can help if you're needing a break or a bit of moral support, and second, a VERY supportive husband who will be willing to take the kids and give you time for yourself to rejueninate your spirit. Taking classes, meditating, reading, etc., are all ways that you not only can keep your balance and perpective, but also help you relax and gain a foothold on who you are so when you go back to being "a mom," you're recharged and willing to read the book, Baby Beluga, 20 times in a row and feel that you can give EVERY minute your child needs and fully accomplish your roll as a mom with success. Without a good supportive husband, you CANNOT be a good mom, IMO

Good luck!

Michelle

 

[pqcollectibles]

You pegged that MC. A support group is very important!! You get tips from others that are going thru the same stage as you, or recently went thru it. Sometimes just a "fresh pair of eyes" is a tremendous help. Unified parents, that support one another are key to success. The rest is fly by the seat of the pants.

We were married over 6 years before our first child came along. We had bought our first house, we thought we were settled, and decided to start our family. Thinking we were settled was a huge joke on us. By the time our son was 7 months old, he'd lived in 3 different states. Hubby changed jobs before I even knew I was pregnant. We moved into an apartment to rent in Missouri and thought we had sold the house in Illinois. Right after our son was born in Missouri, the buyers backed out of the deal. So we had to move back to our house in Illinois. Hubby drove 110 miles each way to work and back every day. About the same time we sold the house the 2nd time, hubby got a terrific job offer in Indiana. So we moved to Indiana instead of back to Missouri. That was a very hectic time in our lives!