Questions about hearts & arrows

[vespergirl]

Are all H&A diamonds from AGS? Do all AGS diamonds have H&A? Are all H&A diamonds laser inscribed? Do all H&A diamonds have good light return? Should I get an Idealscope before going to look at H&A diamonds?

In an RB, do I need an H&A diamond, or is Tolkowsky Ideal Cut or Excellent Ideal Cut good enough? What''s the real difference between the two?

The reason I ask is I''m looking at certs on some diamonds that I''m interested in, and some say H&A that are from EGL, not AGS, and I don''t know - is that a "real" H&A stone? One of the EGL diamonds that I;m looking at scores a 1.1 on the HCA, and the comments section lists it as "excellent ideal cut" instead of "hearts and arrows." Will it not be as visually appealing?

Thanks for taking a look at these basic questions - I read the tutorial section that was recommended, but I still was confused on these points.

 

[belle]

aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh.......nooooooooo!!!!

okay fine.
here goes

Date: 10/16/2007 11:51:55 AM
Author:vespergirl

Are all H&A diamonds from AGS?

no

Do all AGS diamonds have H&A?

no

Are all H&A diamonds laser inscribed?

no

Do all H&A diamonds have good light return?

no

Should I get an Idealscope before going to look at H&A diamonds?

yes

In an RB, do I need an H&A diamond

no

is Tolkowsky Ideal Cut or Excellent Ideal Cut good enough?

can be

What''s the real difference between the two?

maybe nothing

The reason I ask is I''m looking at certs on some diamonds that I''m interested in, and some say H&A that are from EGL, not AGS, and I don''t know - is that a ''real'' H&A stone?

there is no absolute defintion for h&a. this is why the term gets so widely abused.

One of the EGL diamonds that I;m looking at scores a 1.1 on the HCA, and the comments section lists it as ''excellent ideal cut'' instead of ''hearts and arrows.'' Will it not be as visually appealing?

it depends on who is looking at it.
you know what they say.....

(beauty, eye, beholder...)

Thanks for taking a look at these basic questions - I read the tutorial section that was recommended, but I still was confused on these points.

try a search. i know i have answered these questions a million times (well, at least a few!) and very recently too.
if you''re still confused after you do a search, i will be happy to elaborate on any specific questions you have. all of the answers i gave above have qualifications that go with them but i didn''t want to expound on everything because i know the answers are readily available if you do a search.
(i''m not trying to be short, it''s just that these answers take a long time to explain and i put myself out there more than a few times recently!) the answers are out there.

 

[vespergirl]

THanks Belle! I know that I''ve seen threads on this stuff before, and I read some, but I was still a little confused - you actually did clear a lot upf ro me though

I''m looking at a couple of diamonds from EGL that say H&A on the cert, & from GIA that only say Excellent Cut, but I was afraid they wouldn''t be good. It looks like I just ened to get an Idealscope & go look at a bunch.

Now that I know that I''m not just limited to AGS diamonds I can look at a much better selection & just pick one that looks good to me.

Thanks again! You are very patient with us newbies - these RBS have so many rules & specs follow!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:05:03 PM
Author: belle
aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh.......nooooooooo!!!!

try a search. the answers are out there.

belle''s right, these have all been answered. A bunch.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Do all AGS diamonds have H&A?

NO

Are all H&A diamonds laser inscribed?

NO

Do all H&A diamonds have good light return?

NO

Should I get an Idealscope before going to look at H&A diamonds?

If you are looking at diamonds in person you should get an ideal scope to check LIGHT RETURN AND LIGHT LEAKAGE. If you want to check hearts and arrows you should put in a couple extra bucks and get a symmetry scope as well. In order to see the hearts though the diamond needs to be LOOSE and you look at it upside down.

In an RB, do I need an H&A diamond

You don't NEED it, if you are looking at MRB I would advise that you not go below Near hearts and arrows. But in truth, for my own purchases I would really like to get perfect hearts just for a mind clean issue. It is something that you, and largely your budget and ct goals, will have to dictate


or is Tolkowsky Ideal Cut or Excellent Ideal Cut good enough? What's the real difference between the two?

These are pretty well independent of Hearts and Arrows. I am leaving soon and don't have time to go into that now, but someone more qualified than myself will surely step up anyway


The reason I ask is I'm looking at certs on some diamonds that I'm interested in, and some say H&A

The laboratory DID NOT evaluate for hearts. They are just reporting what was inscribed on the diamond. Do you know who inscribed it? Do you know what the standards are for which they determine hearts? If not, then you can not trust that inscription, and from what the professionals on here have said it will often be a poor attempt at tomfoolery.

that are from EGL, not AGS, and I don't know - is that a 'real' H&A stone?

There is only one REAL hearts and arrows in my opinion. That is in Japan where it is called "hearts and cupids." In the USA we have no governing body setting parameters for hearts and arrows, and as such anybody can legally call anything hearts and arrows. I would bet if it were bad enough and expensive enough you might be able to take it to court...but who wants to try that? There are some independent businesses such as Whiteflash or Hearts on Fire and others that set good parameters to evaluate hearts and try their dardest to stick within those parameters. but NEITHER of those labs, not any of the others you are looking at, evaluate for hearts and arrows. If it says Hearts and arrows you can rest assured that it WAS NOT THE LABORATORY.

Are all H&A diamonds from AGS?

I obviously answered this one obviously. The answer being no, because none of them are AGS or otherwise specific. The only laboratory that I know of that grades for hearts and arrows is in Japan...where as I said they call it hearts and cupids. I am not sure the name of that laboratory but that is what they specialize in certifying if I am not mistaken, and the chances you are looking at one of those stones is nil.

One of the EGL diamonds that I;m looking at scores a 1.1 on the HCA, and the comments section lists it as 'excellent ideal cut' instead of 'hearts and arrows.' Will it not be as visually appealing?


Excellent is the best rating the HCA gives. HCA is about light return. HandA is about optical symmetry. 1.1 is as good as an HCA score gets. However, to get a better result you really need to use angles, not % as you used from your EGL report.

Also, EGL is known for not being graded correctly. Sometimes it is, and some sections of EGL are supposedly better than others. What that amounts to is that you could be getting a good price, you could be getting a fair price, or you could be getting ripped off. If this is a large diamond I advise not taking the chance.

Ultimatly though there will be many beautiful EGL diamonds out there, because the lab papers do not make the diamond, but they may not always be exactly what the EGL lab papers say they are.



Thanks for taking a look at these basic questions - I read the tutorial section that was recommended, but I still was confused on these points.

You might want go through the tutorial again, and do some more searches to find some answers. the tutorial is not all encompassing, but it should have covered several of these points I believe

[

 

[aljdewey]

Are all H&A diamonds from AGS? No.
Do all AGS diamonds have H&A? No.
Are all H&A diamonds laser inscribed? No.

Do all H&A diamonds have good light return? H&A refers to the pattern, not to light performance, so H&A isn't a guarantee of good light performance. While most are likely to have good light return (doesn't make sense to spend the craftsmanship time to achieve H&A for a lesser make stone), it's entirely possible that a stone could be H&A and not exhibit good light return. They would probably be the exception to the rule, but it's still possible.

Should I get an Idealscope before going to look at H&A diamonds? It could only be helpful, and wouldn't hurt.

In an RB, do I need an H&A diamond, or is Tolkowsky Ideal Cut or Excellent Ideal Cut good enough? That really depends on you and what you value.

If your goal is to get a top-make, well-performing stone, you could certainly include non H&A stones in your potential candidates.

If you value the craftsmanship of the H&A or if it's a mind-clean issue for you and you'd feel better having that precision, that's good too.

What's the real difference between the two? H&A refers to the pattern, but isn't likely to make a discernable difference to the eye.

The reason I ask is I'm looking at certs on some diamonds that I'm interested in, and some say H&A that are from EGL, not AGS, and I don't know - is that a 'real' H&A stone? There is no 'real' H&A stone criteria.....it's not a regulated term, so it depends on what standards you're applying. Brian Gavin has one of the more stringent H&A criteria, so that's a good starting place to learn about it (http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds_info/t/all_about.aspx?articleid=23&zoneid=23).

The most important thing to know: the labs don't grade or confirm H&A. That isn't something they measure (since there's no uniform metrics of what constitutes H&A). They simply tell you what's listed on the stone, etc. If I had "H&A" inscribed on my diamond because I felt like it, they would put that on the report. The H&A designation on any grading report does not mean that lab considers the stone an H&A.


One of the EGL diamonds that I;m looking at scores a 1.1 on the HCA, and the comments section lists it as 'excellent ideal cut' instead of 'hearts and arrows.' Will it not be as visually appealing?

I'd be more concerned on the EGL stone about the integrity of the grade information. H&A alone isn't a determining factor for how visually appealing a diamond will be.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:05:03 PM
Author: belle
aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh.......nooooooooo!!!!


okay fine.

here goes

Date: 10/16/2007 11:51:55 AM

Author:vespergirl


Are all H&A diamonds from AGS?

no

Do all AGS diamonds have H&A?

no

Are all H&A diamonds laser inscribed?

no

Do all H&A diamonds have good light return?

no

Should I get an Idealscope before going to look at H&A diamonds?

yes

In an RB, do I need an H&A diamond

no

is Tolkowsky Ideal Cut or Excellent Ideal Cut good enough?

can be

What''s the real difference between the two?

maybe nothing

The reason I ask is I''m looking at certs on some diamonds that I''m interested in, and some say H&A that are from EGL, not AGS, and I don''t know - is that a ''real'' H&A stone?

there is no absolute defintion for h&a. this is why the term gets so widely abused.

One of the EGL diamonds that I;m looking at scores a 1.1 on the HCA, and the comments section lists it as ''excellent ideal cut'' instead of ''hearts and arrows.'' Will it not be as visually appealing?

it depends on who is looking at it.

you know what they say.....

(beauty, eye, beholder...)

Thanks for taking a look at these basic questions - I read the tutorial section that was recommended, but I still was confused on these points.

try a search. i know i have answered these questions a million times (well, at least a few!) and very recently too.

if you''re still confused after you do a search, i will be happy to elaborate on any specific questions you have. all of the answers i gave above have qualifications that go with them but i didn''t want to expound on everything because i know the answers are readily available if you do a search.

(i''m not trying to be short, it''s just that these answers take a long time to explain and i put myself out there more than a few times recently!) the answers are out there.

oh geez look at you, I totally wasted my time. I thought I had gotten here early enough that I was the first so I would take the time, but no, you had beaten me you just hadn''t posted yet. ugggghhh....

 

[belle]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:10:52 PM
Author: vespergirl

THanks Belle! I know that I''ve seen threads on this stuff before, and I read some, but I was still a little confused - you actually did clear a lot upf ro me though

glad you got most of it cleared up! you had a lot of very general questions there! again, if you are confused about something specific, feel free to ask.

I''m looking at a couple of diamonds from EGL that say H&A on the cert, & from GIA that only say Excellent Cut, but I was afraid they wouldn''t be good.

they may or may not be. it is everything working together (ESPECIALLY the crown/pavilion angles) that will determine whether or not a diamond is ''good''. not what is on the cert.

It looks like I just ened to get an Idealscope & go look at a bunch.

that would be prudent. make sure you see some of the high end brand name stones too.

Now that I know that I''m not just limited to AGS diamonds I can look at a much better selection & just pick one that looks good to me.

absolutely. but don''t rule out the ags stones completely! make sure to look at AS MANY as you can!

Thanks again! You are very patient with us newbies - these RBS have so many rules & specs follow!

hahaha....my short answers didn''t ooze of patience! actually, rounds are the easiest..but i know what you mean. i remember those days all too well!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

hahaha...and now Alj.

We may have our differences, but we do help make for a #$@# good forum.
$

 

[belle]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:12:34 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 10/16/2007 12:05:03 PM
Author: belle
aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh.......nooooooooo!!!!

try a search. the answers are out there.

lmao...well.....when you put it like that, i don''t sound patient in the least! hahahahahahaaaaaa

Date: 10/16/2007 12:12:34 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 10/16/2007 12:05:03 PM
Author: belle
aaaaaaaaaaghhhhhh.......nooooooooo!!!!

try a search. the answers are out there.

belle''s right, these have all been answered. A bunch.

but....yeah.....THEY HAVE!

 

[vespergirl]

You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I just ordered an Idealscope beginner kit with the light so I think that will help me find something good. Every time I walk into this jewelry store, all the diamonds look good, and then different lighting situations tell a different story, so I think the Idealscope should really help me pick a nice one.

 

[belle]

hahahahahhaaaaa......look at all of this help pouring in!
you may not even have to do a search now!

and when the next guy inevitably comes along...........

 

[Ellen]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:25:35 PM
Author: belle
lmao...well.....when you put it like that, i don''t sound patient in the least! hahahahahahaaaaaa

but....yeah.....THEY HAVE!

lol! I just kept the stuff I wanted to emphasize. Sorry!

 

[belle]

Date: 10/16/2007 12:30:00 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 10/16/2007 12:25:35 PM
Author: belle
lmao...well.....when you put it like that, i don''t sound patient in the least! hahahahahahaaaaaa

but....yeah.....THEY HAVE!

lol! I just kept the stuff I wanted to emphasize. Sorry!

it was PERFECT.

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[risingsun]

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Vespergirl, I know Good Old Gold had a couple of EGL certified H&A stones, and I wouldn''t hesitate to buy those since Jonathan can not only verify the cut and light return, but he can also check the color.

 

[gontama]

Date: 10/16/2007 6:52:25 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 10/16/2007 12:19:48 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

There is only one REAL hearts and arrows in my opinion. That is in Japan where it is called ''hearts and cupids.'' In the USA we have no governing body setting parameters for hearts and arrows, and as such anybody can legally call anything hearts and arrows. I would bet if it were bad enough and expensive enough you might be able to take it to court...but who wants to try that? There are some independent businesses such as Whiteflash or Hearts on Fire and others that set good parameters to evaluate hearts and try their dardest to stick within those parameters... / ...The only laboratory that I know of that grades for hearts and arrows is in Japan...where as I said they call it hearts and cupids. I am not sure the name of that laboratory but that is what they specialize in certifying if I am not mistaken, and the chances you are looking at one of those stones is nil.

There is no governing body in Remember the labs are dealing with a constituency of clients hoping for good grades, whereas a committed diamantaire can enforce his own standards above and beyond the labs. In the words of Michael Cowing; when it comes to cut precision Brian & Paul answer to a “higher authority.”So do a number of the top pros and enthusiasts on PS. It''s a great place to be.

For the record, they care very little about the abovementioned lab. They need result and heart and cupid phonomena is not uncommon. Apollon 8 (kind of parent of 8*) is there to demonstrate precision. A brand known here in US is begining to show up as heart and cupid as well. The original cutter Higuchi may have something to say about the quality and/or precision. Their "standard" in many areas are rarely reflected or can be evaluated by authority or lab.
[/i]

 

[gontama]

Date: 10/16/2007 8:12:32 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Vespergirl, I know Good Old Gold had a couple of EGL certified H&A stones, and I wouldn''t hesitate to buy those since Jonathan can not only verify the cut and light return, but he can also check the color.

I would buy them. The cut quality seems really among the best. The color is probably one to two grades off and the prices reflect that. I would buy them instead of not-the-best GIA/AGS stones.

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/16/2007 7:45:30 PM
Author: risingsun
John~Thank you...thank you...thank you...my blood pressure is starting to drop

Hi RS.

I don''t think any disrespect was implied - just thought some additional info would be useful.

 

[vespergirl]

Thanks for all the additional info.

Diamondseeker, I would love to purchase from the vendor you mentioned, but I have a 100% trade-up poilcy with my local diamond vendor, so I am going to trade my asscher with them.

I''m glad to hear that I don''t need to be too wary of the EGL stones. My asscher now is EGL, and it''s much nicer than my old one which was GIA graded. I will be sure to compare color, and look at all diamonds thru the Idealscope before deciding on one.

I''m not in a huge rush - would like to get the ring made for around the holidays, so I''ve got time to find a nice one.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 10/16/2007 10:38:03 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 10/16/2007 7:45:30 PM
Author: risingsun
John~Thank you...thank you...thank you...my blood pressure is starting to drop

Hi RS.

I don''t think any disrespect was implied - just thought some additional info would be useful.

I appreciate you stopping by with this information. You are a gentleman and a scholar

 

[stebbo]

Date: 10/16/2007 11:17:18 PM
Author: risingsun

Date: 10/16/2007 10:38:03 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 10/16/2007 7:45:30 PM
Author: risingsun
John~Thank you...thank you...thank you...my blood pressure is starting to drop

Hi RS.

I don''t think any disrespect was implied - just thought some additional info would be useful.

I appreciate you stopping by with this information. You are a gentleman and a scholar

I second that. Even though Pricescope is free, boy you''re great value John. Time and time again I appreciate not only what you say, but how well and respectfully you write it... Thanks.

One thing that''s been on my mind for a while is how H&A''s are planned. If Brian was going to cut a H&A, would he too be consulting a reflectorscope during the process? I''m wondering how consistent the RI (for example) is through diamond and how much angles have to adjusted from that planned for optical symmetry.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/17/2007 9:28:54 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 10/16/2007 6:52:25 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

...In the words of Michael Cowing; when it comes to cut precision Brian & Paul answer to a “higher authority...”

I am not sure, but I think that Neil Beatty originally used these words, John.

Live long,

Ja? I know Michael said it of Brian in our first-ever meeting at JCK & repeated it in phone calls. He has included you in the same sentiment for good reason. I grant you that it does sound like a Neil-ism.

 

[Iiro]

Just to add a side note.
As Hearts & Arrows is registered company name in Japan, labs cannot call any diamonds Hearts & Arrows. Instead they call the diamonds Hearst & Cupids.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 10/17/2007 12:20:00 AM
Author: stebbo

I second that. Even though Pricescope is free, boy you're great value John. Time and time again I appreciate not only what you say, but how well and respectfully you write it... Thanks.

One thing that's been on my mind for a while is how H&A's are planned. If Brian was going to cut a H&A, would he too be consulting a reflectorscope during the process? I'm wondering how consistent the RI (for example) is through diamond and how much angles have to adjusted from that planned for optical symmetry.

Thanks a lot Stebbo. Actually it's work-related for me so I give more credit to you and your peers for taking the time to help out here.

The process is pretty involved & there are different approaches. Those skilled at the wheel would not necessarily do this during the process but at some point reflectors are consulted. It's the up-front that is most important. Once the rough has been estimated there is significant pre-planning involved. That’s extremely important; preparing properly. Having the best equipment, tools in top condition and fine craftsmen are also critical.

Iiro, that makes perfect sense. Thank you.

 

[gontama]