Question for women

[Circe]

This police statement is ridiculous. The first attempted rape in Park Slope was caught on tape and the woman was wearing pants. There was another attempted attack on a street in Staten Island earlier this week and that woman was also wearing pants. Wearing pants doesn't protect one from rape. It reminds me of that ignorant judge in Italy who said a woman couldn't have been raped because she was wearing tight jeans.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing this out - I thought the "skirt" thing sounded hinky, but I hadn't had time to look up the actual attacks. Key point - the advice isn't actually based in anything but that one cop's opinion of how a good woman dresses.

 

[dragonfly411]

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to change how I dress just so a rapist MIGHT stop. Catch the stupid rapist.

 

[packrat]

I think had the police been on loudspeakers and been shouting "Listen up all you whores!" I'd be pissed. Yes there are right ways and wrong ways to say things, approach things, etc..just b/c you're an officer of the law does not mean you are automatically blessed with tact, and I think sometimes we need to stop and think about what is said to us or what we hear from other people..was it actually meant the way it sounded, or did I just take it that way? Am I automatically defensive about suggestions about my clothing b/c I'm a girl and by gosh and by golly I'm going to wear a bikini when I walk down the street if I want to b/c I'm so sick of hearing "but what was she wearing?"? I'm a girl, I've been raped, I've been thru it, and I'm not always the most tactful when I speak..it takes me for-ev-er to type out these posts b/c I try to phrase things w/out sounding like a big ole bitch and pissing people off b/c you know, you can't make one person happy w/out ticking off a few other people at the same time, it's impossible. If I'm upset or scared or having other emotions, that makes it worse.

My husband has tact and it's something I greatly admire about him. Does he *always*? Nope. Guys, as far as I'm concerned, are wired differently, and some of them, when it comes to women, can't word/phrase things in an un offensive manner. However, sometimes I kinda think some women are immediately defensive about some things. Had the police not said anything at all, but were still busy trying to find the guy, and in the meantime someone else was raped, people would be up in arms about that too. It's a can't win for losing type of deal. If the cops don't know anything about who they're looking for..just a GUY...a random GUY, what other recourse do they have but to change tactics and try to give a heads up 7up to those that *could* potentially be victims? "Attention women! There's a GUY..he's raping women..Again, there is a GUY running around and raping women please be careful" ..b/c that's helpful right? and you know what would be said then? How can we protect ourselves if we don't have more information. But then when we have a little more information, if it's not "he's 5'10, hazel eyes, reddish blonde hair w/a beard and a scar on his left cheek, be on the look out" but rather "the only thing we can figure out so far is the women have all been wearing skirts, be safe than sorry, tack on shorts too b/c we just don't know" then we get mad. It's not like they stopped a few women on the streets in skirts/shorts and then shrugged and said, meh, I did what I could and then stuck the case in the dead files..they're still working on it but trying to do what they can in the meantime to keep people safe.

 

[movie zombie]

haven't read all the responses, but my initial reaction its a bit like the far right muslim moral police/sharia/taliban women shouldn't even be on the street unless escorted by a male because after all it is for their own safety. sorry but these cops are out of line....if they're concerned they should be telling women to get mace/pepper spray or carry some kind of self-defense weapon.

 

[monarch64]

Why not just tell people to be using the buddy system and to think about dressing in a manner which allows for optimum freedom of movement? "Don't wear skirts" is just lame. However, if I am informed by authorities that the rapist has been primarily targeting women wearing dresses or skirts, I'm going to make the logical conclusion a. not to wear a dress or skirt when I'm walking around by myself, and b. to wear clothing and shoes that are easy to maneuver in. I.e. NOT a pair of 3.5" heels (my usual heel height if I wear them), although I might be carrying a stiletto in one hand with which to stab any would-be attacker in the ear.

 

[Laila619]

Contextually, it has a strong whiff of "Well, what was she wearing?" about it that sets my teeth on edge. I think the problem with a lot of these "practical" suggestions is that they imply that if a woman simply treads the straight-and-narrow - doesn't dress in a revealing fashion, drink to excess, walk through dark alleys at night - she'll be fine. Of course, the flip side is that it implies that it's perfectly all right to rape a woman who's had a beer while wearing a mini-skirt and taken a short-cut home ... and it's just plain dishonest, in the you can be a teetotaling 80-year old puttering around in your kitchen, and some guy can still break in and rape you (and you'll still have to face that same scrutiny). There was a recent case in NY where a guy came in through a lady's window in the middle of the day and raped her: news reports had local residents seriously asking, well, why hadn't she put bars on her windows?

It just never ends.

There's an event in NY called Slutwalk (http://slutwalknyc.com/) going on today predicated on a similar situation: after a woman was raped in Canada, a local police chief took to the news to tell the ladies that if they just didn't dress so slutty, this stuff wouldn't happen! So, in protest, women all over the world have been dressing in their finest - miniskirts, jeans, three-piece suits, mu-mus, all the things a lady could conceivably be wearing during a rape - to demonstrate the illogic of the idea.

Also ... side-note: ever notice how the linguistics set things up to make things the fault of the victim? In news stories, it's frequently "She got raped," as opposed to "That man raped her." It's not like a weather system, people! It doesn't "just happen!" There's a perpetrator. So, bottom line, if the cops are walking around making helpful suggestions ... I'd much rather they addressed the men of the neighborhood to say, "Hey, you see a lady wearing a short skirt? Don't rape her. You see a lady being harassed? Step in and help her." And so on and so forth ....

Circe, I could not disagree more about the bolded.

My law school regularly sends out reminders that no one should leave their laptops unattended within the law school. Does that imply that it's "perfectly alright" to steal an unattended laptop? Of course it doesn't. Suggesting someone guard against criminality doesn't imply endorsement of the criminality.

Being oversensitive to potential victim blaming seems like a good way to stop people from being reminded about how to conduct themselves safely.

MissStepcut, well said. I find myself agreeing with all your posts on PS.

 

[galeteia]

As someone who has been assaulted, this is a prickly topic for me. Like packrat, I am probably going to ruffle some feathers but here's my 2 cents.

I have your too-common college girl passed out story. As a result, I swore off drinking in public for a good 10 years as a result, and even when I do, it's only when SO is with me and a designated driver so I know I am being 'guarded'. When I was younger (and still hot ) I never went outside alone after dark, and I still compulsively check the locks on my doors/windows before I go to bed.

Here's the deal. Is it fair that I should have to refrain from getting blitzed in public because creeps take advantage of drunk girls? No. Does it being unfair STOP IT FROM HAPPENING? Nope. Happens every day.

When I lived close to my college, the cops flat out forbid women from walking alone through a particular section of the long street between me and the college because of a wave of rapes that were happening along there. I didn't get all hissy about being 'told what to do' or get mad about 'why don't they catch him' because the fact is, there were not enough cops to watch every bush, alleyway, and street on that looong stretch every single night. They couldn't be everywhere at once, so until they caught the guy, they warned people away. I appreciated the warning.

Is it fair for police to tell girls to stop dressing in ways that might get them targeted? Fair- perhaps not, but sensible yes. It's stupid to flip off danger to make your point. It's not worth playing chicken with a car to exercise your pedestrian right-of-way. If there is something you can do to lessen the danger for yourself, it's not worth getting raped to make your point about wearing what you want. Yes, practising risk-reduction doesn't guarantee someone won't climb in your window at 12 noon and rape your granny, but if you wave a red flag in front of a bull, chances are you gonna get gored. Better not to be in the ring in the first place, with a live angry bull, holding a red cape, and fulfilling your sudden need to caper about.

Here's something else that will earn me the pitchforks and lit torches- girls who go to bars/clubs in outfits so low cut/short that your crotch doesn't know you've dressed yet, get stumbling shitfaced drunk with no wingbuddy to watch out for them, and be pretend lesbians/strippers to get men's attention drive me nuts. That's like dropping into a lions den wearing a meat dress and screaming EAT MEEEEE!! Congrats, you've got male attention, all right, but it's not the kind you're looking for.

 

[galeteia]

However, if I am informed by authorities that the rapist has been primarily targeting women wearing dresses or skirts, I'm going to make the logical conclusion a. not to wear a dress or skirt when I'm walking around by myself, and b. to wear clothing and shoes that are easy to maneuver in. I.e. NOT a pair of 3.5" heels (my usual heel height if I wear them), although I might be carrying a stiletto in one hand with which to stab any would-be attacker in the ear.

This reminds me about how I refused to wear heels when I was 'out' unless I could run on them. I have used the term "rape bait" to refer to how the clacking of my heels in an empty street unnerved me and made me wear different shoes when 'out' : i.e. "Attention! Probable sexily-dressed (for easy access), probable attractive, probable totally-incapable-of-running-away rape bait now mincing and tottering it's way to you now!"

 

[Archerp]

This topic is raising examples of situations beyond what is happening in the context of the comment of the police.

What is happening here are attacks on women on residential streets. Some happen after the attacker follows the woman after she leaves the subway. I ride that subway line nearly everyday through the areas where the attacks are happening. One of the attacks occurred a little after 9 pm, right after the local news and a volunteer bike escort left one of the subway exits.

While I agree that attackers are wholly to blame for attacks, of course one needs to be smart about self- defense and not being obvious prey. Locking doors and having your wits about you while riding public transportation and walking on the streets is important. I personally think that one of the most dangerous things people here do is put earphones in and stare at a phone screen, Kindle, book, or magazine, completely oblivious to all around them.

One time I was on a train where a guy gradually moved closer to me, until he was a few seats away. He was wanking off under his shirt. This was around 8 on a weeknight, and I was wearing conservative business clothing. I made plans to protect myself, keeping an eye on how many other people were on the train and considering the street level options at each stop. What was amazing to me was that another man sitting about 2 feet to my left did not even notice what was going on. Why? Because he was reading a magazine.

People don't ride the train looking like hos here. Particularly in September. Casual or conservative clothing is what I see. I don't think women should stop wearing skirts and dresses because of an attacker, as that would not stop attacks and is a burden on women. On a hot humid summer day, dresses are the only way to go here. And for work, particularly in conservative offices, knee length skirts are often a part of your wardrobe.

Further, the police could not be bothered with this at first, so I think it is understandable that many don't think they are doing their best now. I previously mentioned that the first Park Slope attack was caught on tape (showing an attempted attack on a casually dressed woman wearing loose fitting jeans). That video was recorded by a camera mounted on one of the homes lining that street. The homeowner kept offering the tape to police but they wouldn't take it. Eventually the story got to the news some time later - maybe even a month or so later - and the police finally took the tape. That incident was around March of this year and here we are, with ongoing crimes.

 

[ksinger]

This topic is raising examples of situations beyond what is happening in the context of the comment of the police.

What is happening here are attacks on women on residential streets. Some happen after the attacker follows the woman after she leaves the subway. I ride that subway line nearly everyday through the areas where the attacks are happening. One of the attacks occurred a little after 9 pm, right after the local news and a volunteer bike escort left one of the subway exits.

While I agree that attackers are wholly to blame for attacks, of course one needs to be smart about self- defense and not being obvious prey. Locking doors and having your wits about you while riding public transportation and walking on the streets is important. I personally think that one of the most dangerous things people here do is put earphones in and stare at a phone screen, Kindle, book, or magazine, completely oblivious to all around them.

One time I was on a train where a guy gradually moved closer to me, until he was a few seats away. He was wanking off under his shirt. This was around 8 on a weeknight, and I was wearing conservative business clothing. I made plans to protect myself, keeping an eye on how many other people were on the train and considering the street level options at each stop. What was amazing to me was that another man sitting about 2 feet to my left did not even notice what was going on. Why? Because he was reading a magazine.

People don't ride the train looking like hos here. Particularly in September. Casual or conservative clothing is what I see. I don't think women should stop wearing skirts and dresses because of an attacker, as that would not stop attacks and is a burden on women. On a hot humid summer day, dresses are the only way to go here. And for work, particularly in conservative offices, knee length skirts are often a part of your wardrobe.

Further, the police could not be bothered with this at first, so I think it is understandable that many don't think they are doing their best now. I previously mentioned that the first Park Slope attack was caught on tape (showing an attempted attack on a casually dressed woman wearing loose fitting jeans). That video was recorded by a camera mounted on one of the homes lining that street. The homeowner kept offering the tape to police but they wouldn't take it. Eventually the story got to the news some time later - maybe even a month or so later - and the police finally took the tape. That incident was around March of this year and here we are, with ongoing crimes.

Yes, WAY beyond the issue at hand. Interesting to see the bias reveal itself.

And I keep wondering, OK...so all women stop wearing dresses. I guess rapist dude is going to go, "Damn. I guess I'll just stay home today!" ?? Umm...doubt it. And as you - who live in the area - have pointed out, apparently this guy is NOT just targeting women who wear dresses. The whole "don't dress/do dress this way" thing is showing itself to be pretty iffy here, not to mention giving a false sense of "doing something". Pretty much all it does is add a burden of blame to the next woman who gets raped and isn't wearing the "safe and proper" clothes.

 

[movie zombie]

[quote="ksinger|1317734883|3032839
And I keep wondering, OK...so all women stop wearing dresses. I guess rapist dude is going to go, "Damn. I guess I'll just stay home today!" ?? Umm...doubt it. And as you - who live in the area - have pointed out, apparently this guy is NOT just targeting women who wear dresses. The whole "don't dress/do dress this way" thing is showing itself to be pretty iffy here, not to mention giving a false sense of "doing something". Pretty much all it does is add a burden of blame to the next woman who gets raped and isn't wearing the "safe and proper" clothes. [/quote]


bingo.