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Purchasing an un-cert. diamond???

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bnerstrom

Rough_Rock
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Aug 8, 2006
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This is only my second diamond purchase and by far my largest. I have been talking with local independent guys as well as looking on line. I am loking for something inthe 1.5-2.0 range. I don''t understand why some of the 2.0''s are so inexpensive. They all have comparible color and clarity - so, by default, it must be the cut?

My jewler called me last night and told me that his diamond dealer had a 1.76 that was priced closer to a 1.5 and I should come take a look. He did not have all of the info but I don''t think that this diamond has a cert. since he told me that he had not decided the color or clarity Should I ask him to send it out? I think that I will want one if I purchase for insurance, right? Any help/advice would be great. Will post back once I have seen it.
 
Welcome to PS
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I think firstly you have to consider why a diamond wasn't sent for a cert when it is much more valuable with one...Can be various reasons for this, the cutter or owner doesn't think it will grade well and might sell more easily in a certain market without one, but whatever the reason I believe uncerted diamonds do have their place, not everyone will agree with me here but this is just my opinion. Also you say that some of the diamonds you have looked at are inexpensive, we can't comment on that without some figures.
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Also the reason some of the prices vary is that you could be looking at EGL or IGI certed diamonds which nearly always have a lower pricetag than GIA or AGS.

Now, regarding this diamond you are interested in that doesn't have a cert. Firstly before you do anything, if you have time, read up on the tutorials to get an idea of cut proportions, you know that cut is by far the most important factor which gives a diamond it's beauty?

I would agree that this diamond doesn't have a cert if the seller needs to decide the colour and the clarity. To protect yourself as best you can, if you want to pursue this diamond, get it in writing that should you decide to purchase this diamond that you make the sale dependant on this diamond checking out in the opinion of a professional independant appraiser. The appraiser for around $130 rough figure will check the diamond for any durability issues and that the colour and clarity are accurate. This is a small price to pay for peace of mind, also you can use the appraisal to get insurance cover, which is better if the worst should happen that you can replace like with like.

If the vendor is agreeable to that then that would be the way to go. Also you could try asking him if he would send the diamond to GIA for a cert, this could take some time to do, but then if he sends the diamond he can really bump the price up in line with GIA certed similar.

So my best advice is to get an appraiser to check it out. The price is very contingent on what he appraises it for, you might buy what you think is an F VS and think you have got a good price, but if the grading is off, it could be actually a couple to a few grades lower, so make sure you are getting what you pay for. To sum up, uncerted diamonds always carry a lower price tag than certed, GIA and AGS carrying the highest prices as the industry standard. Be careful here and do your research before pulling the trigger.

Lastly, don't go by labels such as 'Premium' or 'Ideal' slapped on a diamond to describe the cut quality, it doesn't always mean much. I doubt that a vendor is going to have any Idealscope images or Sarin reports on an uncerted diamond, so see if you can somehow get the proportions of this diamond, but above all use your eyes! Check the diamond out in outside and natural lighting too to check for performance, visibility of inclusions and colour face up and from the side, jewelry store lighting will make an ashtray attractive!

Best of luck and I hope this helps!

Also check out the diameter measurements of the diamonds you are looking at. If a diamond is cut too deep or has a thick girdle for example, it can face up smaller than it should, i.e a 2 carat can face up like a 1.85 for example. Here is a chart you can use to help you, it has the carat weights and what they should measure.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/mm-to-carat-stone-conversion-chart.17578/
 
bnerstrom

Any decent diamond of that size will have a cert from a major lab - except in the rare case of it being from a heirloom piece that was recently purchased.

The fact that it does not have a cert raises a lot of questions.

The only place I would expect not to find certs in on diamonds below .625 carats; but you will find many 0.500 diamonds and some .375 diamonds with certs. As the size of the diamond goes lower - the cost of the certification process adds a cost that cannot be recovered in many cases.

I have personnally purchased a pair of 1/4 carat diamonds that did not have a cert. I did require other information (idealscope picture, sarin file, etc) and then sent them to an independet appraiser to provide their diamond grading rating and appraisal (which included ideal scope pictures on the appraisal).

Perry
 
You will most certainly get what you pay for.
 
I was offered a 2.08 ct. uncertified diamond yesterday. I live in So. Cal, so there are plenty of jewelry marts to shop in. According to this lady at the jewelry mart (who I actually bought my first diamond from 12 years ago and I have several friends who use her as their regular jeweler) she buys most of her diamonds uncertified because they are cheaper for her and she can sell them cheaper. The only problem for me was that I don't think she is selling it cheap enough for an uncertified diamond. This diamond happened to already be mounted into the setting that I want. She offered me $13,800 for the diamond and setting. She say's the diamond was a J, SI2. It was the whitest J I have ever seen and it was eye clean. It was very sparkly, but not as much as compared to a G, VS2 that she showed me. But it was sparkly enough for me. If the price had been better I might have considered buying it, but I'm not paying that much for an unceritified diamond.

As soon as she realized that I was familiar with diamonds and she wasn't getting an impulse buy, she offered to send the diamond off to be certified, but said it could change the price of the diamond.
 
I just paid $375 to have my diamond GIA certified because the jeweler, who advertised he buys diamonds, said he could only give a fraction of the value of it, even if it looked like a high quality daimond without the certification. Now that I got back the GIA certification, he now wants me to pay less even though it came back very close to his original thoughts on everything. Most jewelers will only give you 1/4 the original value of the diamond w/o certification.

Here is an my example with getting a certication that closley matches the diamond you are describing:

1.88 Round Brillant
Color: H
Clarity:SI2
Cut: Very, Very Good

He wanted to pay me $8,000 for it w/o the GIA certification, and he thought it was SI1 instead of S12. Now he said it will drop $2,000 in price for an SI2. I am not sure if I am going to sell it to him but it just does not seem correct.
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At least, I do have the GIA certification, I can price it in the correct category. Without the certifcation, forget getting even close.
 
Thanks for all of your input, I should have more information about the diamond tonight as I have not seen it yet.

Pertaining to the measurments: Is this standard info that the jeweler should have? What info should I be able to get on an un-cert. diamond and what missing info should raise a red flag?

I''m no expert but I would perfer not to be a chump!
 
what is he referencing his price points to? have you done a search here to see what prices are like for diamonds in that size range? everything listed in the pricescope search comes with at least an egl grading report but you should be able to get a general idea on price.
 
Ok, Here is what I found out tonight...so if anyone has some input please let me know!

Ct: 1.52
Color: H
Clarity: SI2/I1
Cut: princess
Price: $5870

It looks good to the naked eye, can see the inclusions if you look close but they are on the side. Does not have a cert but I agree with the color and clarity (compared to what I have seen, but I am not an expert)

HELP!!! Can I do better or is this a deal?
 
Do you at have the length and width? Depth and table? It seems a little expensive to me.
 
That was my thought too...I have the dimentions on the way, will post when I get them.

Thanks
 
I am thinking that I would like to go a little larger (1.7-2.0 ct) but everything that I have seen in person is WAY too expensive and when I search online I am not sure what I will end up with if I get something in the mid to lower price range ($8000 ish) Any ideas?
 
Be very carefull with uncertified diamonds, except for very small ones. At a mimimum they need to go to a good independent appraiser.

Good "natural" diamonds are certified. The jewelers can sell them for more with the certification. Most of the cutters get them certified before even offering them to sale to the distributors. The reason Blue Nile and many other internet dealers can offer about 50,000 certified diamonds is that they are listing the wholesalers inventory list. Note that those diamonds have certs at the wholesale level. These are the same diamond inventory list that most of the local jewelry stores buy from....

That does not mean that there are not uncerified diamonds out there.....

The grading labs typically will not certify fracture filled or other treated diamonds; and there are a lot of those out there.


jayrenay9 says:

I was offered a 2.08 ct. uncertified diamond yesterday. I live in So. Cal, so there are plenty of jewelry marts to shop in. According to this lady at the jewelry mart (who I actually bought my first diamond from 12 years ago and I have several friends who use her as their regular jeweler) she buys most of her diamonds uncertified because they are cheaper for her and she can sell them cheaper.

The above sounds like a classic line from an unscrupulous dealer selling fracture filled and treated diamonds. By federal law - they are required to tell you that the diamonds are either filled or treated. Sadly, many do not.

I have no problem with you buying a filled or treated diamond - as long as you know up front that is what you are buying. My vauge understatnding is that these diamonds are usally substaintailly less than a "good" natural diamond (1/2 - 2/3 the cost).

Be very cautious of uncertified larger diamonds... There has to be a reason they are uncertified, and you need to know why.

Perry
 
Just some statistics based on what I see as an appraiser.

On diamonds without major lab reports 90% of the time the quality is overstated, by at least one grade.

Here's an example: Just saw a stone where the customer was told SI-3. It was a borderline I-1-I-2 and three color grades lower than represented. Polish good Symmetry Fair to good, had a huge table, and shallow crown height.
This stone was so poor, it was easily seen. Yet was represented to be a fine stone.

Not even worth going through all the testing I do.

So to summarize, there is a high percentage of diamonds without reports that the qualities are exaggerated.

The "cure" for this is to offer the seller the cost of the major lab report ( preferably AGS then GIA, not EGL or IGI), if it grades as he specifies in his sales pitch. It's reasonable to leave a deposit for this, but don't pay for the stone in advance. If it grades what he says, then you purchase it, if it doesn't then you re-negotiate the price if you want it, or walk away from the deal with your deposit being refunded. If the seller isn't willing to do this, then FIND ANOTHER SELLER.

Rockdoc
 
Date: 8/10/2006 6:00:01 AM
Author: bnerstrom
I am thinking that I would like to go a little larger (1.7-2.0 ct) but everything that I have seen in person is WAY too expensive and when I search online I am not sure what I will end up with if I get something in the mid to lower price range ($8000 ish) Any ideas?
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Well, did you say you were only wanting a radiant cut? As I mentioned before, in my experience about getting a GIA Certification last week, I am still now undecided as to whether I am going to cave into the pressure from the jeweler/broker about settling on the price for he wants to give me to buy my diamond. I am now in the process after joining this forum, that is incredible for information on buying, selling etc. diamonds, the smartest way!!

As I listed before: My GIA certification came back with these main items on the diamond:

Description:
SHAPE = Round Brillant
SIZE = 1.88
Color: H
Clarity: SI2
Cut: Very, Very Good

After reading more on this site, I went out to other brokers listed throughout this site and now I am at looking at a price of $8,250, for a quote to buy it. So, if you really want that Radiant cut in a diamond, you might want to really look at other areas of this site and see what individuals (like myself) are looking for ways to sell their diamonds (with a GIA certification) and trying to get the best price. Basically, people like myself are going to sell their diamond back to a broker/jeweler for 1/4 of what we paid, and the brokers are going to turn around and sell to the public (ie you) for 40-60% more. A diamond (GIA certified) whether owned before or not is still the same diamond (just hopefully) cheaper.....

I also found the information below (I am detailing for you)... since I wish I knew this before my (now ex-husband) and I purchased my engagement/wedding bands: I am listing my e-mail to a broker (who was interested in buying my bands) and his the reply... great food for thought):

My E-mail to the broker about my bands:

"Description of bands: Scott Kay Platinum Tapered Baguette Diamonds (Channel Setting) band and matching wedding band. (New, never worn - I had it sent back to Mayors for a crack in a baquette and they replaced the entire engagement band, 10 tapered baguettes, Average color: H, Average clarity: VS2. Paid: $5,250 for just engagement band. Also, have Scott Kay matching wedding band, Platinum, 3 tapered baquettes, same avg color & clarity of engagement band. Paid: $2,150 (it has been worn but in great shape) I am willing to sell all 3 pieces seperately or together."

Response from broker
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"As for the rings, do you know the carat weight of diamond baguettes in the rings? They are not going to be worth that much, you paid a lot of money for the Scott Kay name, and you are not going to get that value back when you sell. Let me know about the diamond weights in the rings and I will try to give you a range on them. As for this other (jeweler /broker) making you pay upfront for the GIA fees, (the only reason) is "this jeweler/broker" is trying to pressure you to not sell it anywhere else. Where is the diamond now?

...and he is right, you do pay more for the name!!! I will most likely get $1,800-$2,250 for a brand new (never worn) wedding setting that together cost over $8,500+ Yikes!!! and I am being pressured to sell my diamond for cheaper than it is really worth!!

If anyone has any other information for my situation or comments, please share!!

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Date: 8/10/2006 11:31:18 AM
Author: DarDar

I went out to other brokers listed throughout this site and now I am at looking at a price of $8,250, for a quote to buy it. So, if you really want that Radiant cut in a diamond, you might want to really look at other areas of this site and see what individuals (like myself) are looking for ways to sell their diamonds (with a GIA certification) and trying to get the best price. Basically, people like myself are going to sell their diamond back to a broker/jeweler for 1/4 of what we paid,

Click to expand...
Yikes, are you saying that $8,250 is 1/4 of what you paid for your stone, meaning that you paid $33k for an uncertified diamond that was less than 2 carats? Surely not.

Bnerstrom, with 8k you can get a lovely, certified stone.

Here are some yummy ones:

2.02 J VS2 if you can stretch your budget to $9k

1.51 I SI1

1.39 H VS2
 
Date: 8/10/2006 12:04:53 PM
Author: phoenixgirl

Date: 8/10/2006 11:31:18 AM
Author: DarDar


I went out to other brokers listed throughout this site and now I am at looking at a price of $8,250, for a quote to buy it. So, if you really want that Radiant cut in a diamond, you might want to really look at other areas of this site and see what individuals (like myself) are looking for ways to sell their diamonds (with a GIA certification) and trying to get the best price. Basically, people like myself are going to sell their diamond back to a broker/jeweler for 1/4 of what we paid,

Click to expand...
Yikes, are you saying that $8,250 is 1/4 of what you paid for your stone, meaning that you paid $33k for an uncertified diamond that was less than 2 carats? Surely not.

Bnerstrom, with 8k you can get a lovely, certified stone.

DarDar, No....I said that after using this site as reference to other brokers and intelligence, I now have a much better offer than I 1st did of $6,200 for just the 1.88 GIA certified stone. By the way, my ex actually purchased un-certified diamond for our engagment, I can''t be blamed for that one:). We did get it appraised for over $18,500....although, I know that appraisals are all for the purpose of insurance and replacement values. The 2 Scott Kay diamond bands together, with the 1.88 un-certified diamond did at the time, total close to $28K. So, the moral of the story is if you are going to invest in a name for the bands, make it Tiffany or Cartier not Scott Kay. Don''t get me wrong, it is a beautiful ring and so are the bands, it is just not the best investment for resale.
Click to expand...
 
If you''re getting 8250, you''re getting a really great deal.
 
For all 3 pieces????
 
For the stone. You said you were getting about 2K for the band and engagement setting.
 
If you paid $ 28K, I am assuming that you did this a while ago, and diamond and jewelry prices have increased since then.

I would suggest you talk to a seller who would sell it based on getting a commission, when it was sold. The downside is that you wouldn''t get paid till the seller does. Even if it takes a year to do this.... the difference in what you''d get far outweighs the cost of interest ( 10% ?)

Dealers that are buying that have to lay out the cash to pay you immediately, don''t necessarilly know how long their money will be tied up. So they are going to offer more for you if they don''t have to lay out the money in advance of selling it.
Plus you can hold on to the item, until the seller has a customer for the price that you want.

Probably not a bad idea to have a professional appraiser assist you with this project. He may be able to make some suggestions on how you can liquidate your item in a more prudent way.

Rockdoc
 
Great advice! I am not sure I want to wait year or so but still you are very correct!

This broker also mentioned he was an E-bay Power seller. Should I attempt to sell all three items together through him for a % of the final deal or cost to list this for me?
 
Well, it has been a confusing process but the deal now is $8,250 for everything. So I am no sure that is all that great but it may be....

I am getting the specifics on the 2 bands from where it was purchased: ie Carat weight on the diamond baguettes etc. so at least I have all the information to evaluate my options.
 
OK, by now I am more confused than when I started...but that was expected!

The jewler that I am dealing with comes with very high remarks from someone that is WAY into the bling-bling of jewels...she has bought a lot from this guy.

When I questioned him about diamonds with cert''s vs. non-cert he told me that he had both and if he sold me a diamond that did not appraise at least as good as he was telling me I could return or exchange - no questions, no problems.

He also told me how he gets him diamonds from Israel...sounded strange to me!?!? Is this normal or should I just walk and go spend my $$$ somewhere else?
 
Post moved...
 
Date: 8/10/2006 1:18:35 PM
Author: DarDar
Great advice! I am not sure I want to wait year or so but still you are very correct!

This broker also mentioned he was an E-bay Power seller. Should I attempt to sell all three items together through him for a % of the final deal or cost to list this for me?
Click to expand...

Dar Dar

Actually you are probably at a good time to offer this stone for sale. The high season is from Oct to Dec ( xmas engagements etc).

You sound like a sensible person, so why pay someone else to sell it for you. I''d get some good photos, have the rings polished up like new, make up some flyers, and post them around, at 10-20% less than what a new one would cost.

You could list them on ebay yourself, and put a reserve price or best offer type listing......and due to the fact that you have a nice new GIA report, and a well described narrative defining what the item is and good photos, perhaps you''d get some interest on ebay.

There are companies that specialize in listing things for people, but you could probably do it yourself. Seems you don''t need a broker to list it for you, and take a big commission and a loss. Ebay will charge you something to list it, but seems like if it is offered for sale during the high season, you just might get an interested party that would be happy to purchase it for 10-20 % less than what a new one would cost.

Sound sensible?

Rockdoc
 
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