Private School: mandatory, would be nice, or never? Why?

[Haven]

KSinger--I really enjoyed your post.

Siamese Kitty--Thank you. I imagine you're a fabulous teacher, yourself.
And thank you for sharing your experiences.

Someone asked what can be done to reform education.
I don't know about you, but I do my part every.single.day. You could always become a teacher. That's what those of us who care very passionately about this topic choose to do.

ETA: Or, you could marry one. ( KSinger)
We need partners who are willing to listen to our venting when we are extremely fed up. To feed us when we're too busy grading and researching and planning to feed ourselves. And to help us pay the bills when the school reformers cut our stipends in an effort to make things better.

 

[katamari]

One of my professors in grad school had us calculate this once. Children spend 1/3 of their waking hours in school, even if you only consider the 9-month period they are in school. It drops to 1/4 if you count summer, and less than 15% of their pre-graduation lives in school. Schools will never, ever be able to erase home and neighborhood factors. That is why social statuses always explain more of the variation than school type in the overwhelming majority of research on school effectiveness. That's also why changes that occur solely within the education system are unlikely to be as effective as we want them to be.

Short of the long(^), it really doesn't matter.

 

[atroop711]

Did I read correctly somewhere that teachers get tenure only after 2-3 yrs?

Like in every field there are good teachers and bad ones. The good ones outweigh the bad BUT we need to be able to get rid of those teachers who don't love their profession. In my NYC public HS, the majority of my teachers didn't want to be there. I remember 2 teachers out of the bunch that really taught..that made school/learning fun and interesting. The others were really horrible and didn't care at all. Since I had transfered into this HS from a parochial HS, the difference was shocking. Unfort. my parents couldn't afford the tuition at my parochial school so I had no choice but to attend my local public HS.

 

[brightblue]

Public schools must accept and keep and educate every child. Private schools have the discretion of who is accepted. Testing is more of a socio-economic indicator than anything else. Also, all children are tested at their grade-level regardless of what developmental delays they may have. A fifth grader functioning at an 8 year old level, still has to take the fifth grade test. This is just one factor which skews the scores. Education reform is a complicated issue as it deals with the dynamic...constantly changing children. Read Kozol's book, Savage Inequalities for a perspective. I would go public, hands down.

 

[ksinger]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

Yes, what she said.

I adore you Haven. Only you, Swimmer, and a few others, really understand. I may not be a teacher, but I'm slowly becoming about as informed as one. (In order to become even more informed, I'm currently carrying around a copy of my state's "PASS" standards, which several districts think substitutes for an actual curriculum. A joke. But I digress yet again.) I don't actually like it, to be honest. Ignorance is bliss. Complaining without understanding was so much more fun.


megumic, you say " we need public school reform and we need to ditch the tenure system. "

I would suggest that before you assume you know the problems facing the public schools, and what reforms are needed (right now the prevailing paradigm is that BUSINESS is going to be the saviors of public education. As if short-term profit-oriented thinking will solve every problem.) that you read this book: "The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education" by Diane Ravitch. She is a historian of education, and was an educational policy analyst under Bush I, and Clinton, and was a big proponent of testing, but did an about-face in the face of evidence that it was not only NOT improving educational outcomes, but resulting in less educated kids. It's a great, informative, frustrating, excellently written and incisive read.

Getting rid of tenure sounds great, like every reform before it that purports to be the next silver bullet, but it is only a very small issue in the overall picture. You could fire every teacher deemed "bad" and start fresh, and the problems will not disappear. And of course with the current budget woes in most states, the first people they look to cut are the most expensive ones, not necessarily the worst. Which leaves the most inexperienced teachers left to flounder. It is accepted reflexively by the public for some reason, that the longer a teacher teaches, the worse they get. Like most things the public believes based on the basis of what they've been told by self-proclaimed pundits (usually politically motivated ones), or by their own "anecdote", the data does not bear this view out. More experienced teachers are actually MORE effective, and are absolutely essential for mentoring and reducing the scary level of turnover in the ranks of new teachers, who are usually thown to the wolves. But I realize, resignedly, that nobody is going to believe that until the purge has been done and nothing happens - Americans are notorious for periods of intense "educational reform" and believing that there is some magic spell that is going to make it all better. This cycle has been going on for decades.

And no one EVER considers the massive black-hole-like vacuum of leadership in many districts' administrations, which are frequently in bed with the politicians and business. But by all means lets blame the people with the least actual power to effect institutional change, and the most actually invested in your kids - the teachers, rather than their incompetent managers, many of whom taught only for a few years, and then classes like...oh...typing, or phys-ed. In many states, I assure you, they are running around in total panic, trying to promise miracles to the public, who has been repeatedly lied to that education can be obtained by some magic means other than continuous, unrelenting effort.

I could go on but my fingers need a break....(lucky you guys!)

ETA - edited for crappy sentence structure. She grades her own papers!!

I'm not assuming I know all regarding what needs to be done to improve education. However, I have done a fair bit of research out of concern for our nations educational system. (I have no stake in it, as I don't have kids.) In fact, I agree with most of what you have said above (even if stated a bit snarky).

I agree with what you said about testing -- it is one of the major problems. And I also agree that ditching tenure won't solve everything. But it is a jumping off point to get teachers in there who are motivated and willing to do their jobs. Yes, of course, this also goes back to the policy, bureaucracy, administration, etc, etc. Teachers, parents and students aren't the only ones to be held responsible here. But that's exactly what Rhee was trying to do, she was starting with a major institutional change to bring in new talent to start the change from the bottom up, instead of the top down.

I would agree that more experienced teachers are in fact more effective -- but as a blanket statement this fails. Not all more experienced teachers are necessarily better -- teachers still need to be willing, motivated, happy teachers. You cannot deny that some teachers with more experience are burnt out, unmotivated, bored, and are just there to reach retirement to get the benefits. Even as a law student, I have some professors that are completely ineffective -- I write "RETIRE" across their end of year review.

Since you seem to know so much about where the break-down in our education system is happening, how would you propose we begin education reform? I'm sincerely interested to know, as I am a huge advocate of public education.

I'm sorry if I came across as snarky. But what I take to be bumper-sticker one-line solutions to huge multifaceted problems does get up my nose,it is true. Firing teachers is the thing you hear THE most from the general public as the best way to reform education. It's easy, immediate gratification and pretty spectacular, and people like that. It makes them feel that something is being DONE.

I will address as much of this as I can, probably in more than one post - I have to go to work soon.

First I would ask you to consider WHY teachers become burned out, unmotivated and bored. Why do YOU become burned-out in a job? Bad working condtions? Unreasonable expectations that can't be met? Management making clearly irrational changes in direction from year to year? No chance for recognition or advancement? Here are some stats for you, and I suspect the teachers here will confirm that these are about right. The 5-year turnover rate for conventionally certified teachers is about 30%. For non-conventionally certified, it is 50%, and the Teach for America people that are supposed to be our Great White Hope, come in at whopping 70% turnover. That program, while it does attract the best and brightest (supposedly) is pretty much viewed by career classroom teachers, to be a resume builder more than anything.

Ironically, it takes about 3-5 years for a new teacher to really get his feet under him. Mentorship is KEY for success and retention of new teachers. Many (maybe most) districts do not have a mentorship program for new teachers, or the one they have is on paper only, and doesn't function well. New teachers are tossed in to sink or swim, with the prevailing mindset being teachers are BORN, not MADE. So essentially, this new person fresh out of college, with nothing but book learning, is tossed in with NO TRAINING.

So, many of those bright, shiny, oh-so-motivated people who come in, wash out in the face of the reality and the incredible stress. How would you rate a manager who lost 30-50% of his hires every 5 years? Would the issue be with the employees, or with the some other factor(s)? How long before those new motivated teachers the public thinks are there in droves, get ground down and leave or become what they hate? Do we really want to send the message that teaching is just a part-time job on the way to something else? Because that is exactly what is happening. Teachers are increasingly seen as disposable. Burned out teacher? HECK! Fire 'em. Get a new one. There's alway more where that one came from!

Rather than trying to fire away the supposedly unmotivated, doesn't it make more sense to address the causes of that malaise? But that little task is far more daunting, costly, and might shine a light on the very people who are trying to deflect blame downward.

More later. Gotta run.

 

[yennyfire]

I just want to say THANK YOU to those of you who are teachers. I have an MS in Education and have subbed as a teacher in an elementary school. I have also worked as a school counselor in a high school, so I have been in my share of classrooms.

I am constantly astounded by all of the amazing, creative activities my son's teacher comes up with in her classroom. I know that she works her tail off to make my child's learning environment a good one and I know that she sacrafices many things to be such a great teacher. I thank her every chance I get and do everything I can to appreciate her and make her job a little easier (in whatever ways I can).

Anyone who thinks teachers are the problem needs to spend a day in the classroom. It is a complex juggling act that requires skill, patience, creativity and love. I am grateful every day for the amazing teachers at my kids school.

 

[soocool]

Where I live the private schools which are the most noteworthy are Grey Nun Academy, The George School, and the Quaker "Friends Schools". But the public school system here is noteworthy as well.

DD has attended public school since kindergarten and has thrived in this environment. She attended a Quaker preschool and the curriculum was phenomenal. However, public school has offered her things that private could not. In elementary school she had no more than 20 students in her class. In high school no more than 20 and in many as few a 6. In 1st grade she was tested and accepted into the "Gifted Program". She has been in all Honors/AP classes since middle school (teacher recommendation).

On the other hand, some of her friends did not continue in public high school and went to The George School. Others who went to parochial switched to public high school after 8th grade. Some of the kids who switched over from private could not handle the courseload in public school and were held back. So if you are lucky to live in an area where the public schools are top notch I see no need to waste money on private schools unless your child prospers in a smaller school environment.

Totally forgot about George School! I was thinking about St. Bedes, Villa Joseph Marie, and Archbishop Wood.

Council Rock HS South & North both got 10's on that website. What do you think, accurate?

I agree with the rating.

I agree about Council Rock, plus add New Hope/Solebury, and Central Bucks to the list. I gave DD the choice to attend George School and she declined, while 2 of her close friends ended up going there. She preferred public school (they do provide transport from the public hs to George School)

 

[OUpearlgirl]

I went to a public school where the "cool" thing to do was be in AP classes and most of the popular kids were incredibly smart and driven. Not only that, you also weren't "cool" if you weren't engaged in multiple extra-curricular activities. Like many others have said, it depends on your area.

Most of the kids I know that transferred to private schools had major behavioral problems. The others in my area were from very religious families. All of that being said, if had lived 20 minutes away in Fort Worth, I think my parents would have probably enrolled us in private school. We went to church in Fort Worth and had many friends enrolled in both public and private schools. The difference between the two there was astounding. I feel so lucky to have lived in an area with great public schools, so we could really get a great diverse, well rounded, and challenging education.

 

[luv2sparkle]

My kids have all done both, public and private. Their early years were spent in public schools where they had some fantastic
teachers, who were creative, and incredibly caring, and so good at their jobs. We always went to schools where we were able
to request a certain teacher and we were able to have our kids put in these classes. After 6th grade it was a different story.
My husband and I are both graduates of a private christian schools. He went from K-12 except 6th grade, and I went from
6th-12th. When our oldest was in 8th grade we moved to a mountain area because the we were told the schools were
excellent. The elementary was great, the jr. high and up was awful. The problem wasn't necessarily the teachers, although
a few were really messed up, but the system. We then put our children in the one christian school and again found the same
thing. The teachers were wonderful, but the principal was stuck in the 1950's and his rules and policies were ridiculous.
After that we put two kids in a private school that I had to drive for an hour to get to down the mountain. It was then and still
is amazing. I have found it depends on the kid. If a kid wants to excel and takes advantage of everything a school has to offer,
they do well. If they are not interested they don't.

We have been very involved parents, and I can't think of a thing that we didn't do for our kids that we should have. We have one
child who has done extremely well and a couple others who have been average. It came down to motivation not
intelligence.

I think the debate comes down to what each parent thinks is best for each individual kid. We look at the opportunities
available to us an decide. I am thankful that we have a choice! I am extremely thankful for those teachers who put time,
effort, creativity and love into each of our kids. They have made an impact in their lives that will continue on.

 

[zoebartlett]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

Haven -- I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on Michelle Rhee's recent actions of letting go many DC teachers. Maybe it should be a separate thread. I don't want to threadjack this one.

I imagine Rhee's actions satisfied many who claim to be in support of public school reform, and believe that it's these damn teachers who are to blame for underperforming students.

I think it is a very dangerous thing to reward or punish teachers based on student achievement without first examining our definitions of student achievement.

It is also a very sad and dangerous thing to approach education reform with a business mindset. A business can improve its revenue by identifying its low-earning products and removing them from their product line, or by weeding out the products that don't meet standards and putting out only its best specimens. The minute we start chucking our underperforming students out of our schools, I'm out of here.

Schools are not businesses, and teachers are not quality-control specialists. We welcome students of all abilities, backgrounds, and needs. We need the most dedicated, committed, and trained teachers in the classrooms with the most difficult, needy, and underprepared students. The kicker is this: These students--the at-risk students, developmental learners, essentials kids, or whatever euphemism you'd like to call them--they aren't going to meet the "student achievement" measures required by the state for their age group, because they are behind and students can recover only so much ground in one school year. So guess what? When we begin to assess teachers based on their students' performance (and when we assess that performance using invalid and inauthentic measures in the first place) we force teachers to choose between doing what they need to do to keep their job, and doing what is best for students. Is that a choice you'd like your child's teacher to make? I think not.

I'm proud to be a teacher. We spend our days working with other people's children and helping them grow into successful individuals. We love our jobs so much that we attend professional conferences during our vacation time; we regularly stay late to help our students after school; we coach activities and chaperone dances and go to games and tournaments to cheer for our students; we see the horrors of bullying, poverty, gangs, parental neglect and abuse and yet we still keep on waking up every morning and coming into work to face it all over again, day after day. We are the most resilient group of scapegoats I have ever seen. Despite the blame placed on us by politicians, parents, and well-meaning citizens, we continue to do our jobs and do them well.

Assessment of teacher performance is difficult because we don't churn out concrete evidence of our professional effectiveness the way a salesman churns out sales numbers every quarter. I have no interest in reform based on assessment results until we have first examined the assessments.

To put it in PS terms: Would you buy a cushion based on its HCA score?
Why not?
Oh, that's not the right assessment for a cushion?
What? You advise that I actually see it in person? You mean, there's more to a cushion than it's score?
Shocking.

I really, really don't understand why some "reformers" think of schools as businesses. They're just not set up that way, nor should they be.

I've heard a few parents at my school say things during school board meetings things like "why are teachers out of the classroom to attend professional development workshops and conferences? They already have their degree. Why do they need more training."

Last year, I taught in a state where a few districts were (and still are) looking at performance pay. I completely disagree with this and I've mentioned it here before. There's also a new 25 page "instrument" that principals are using when assessing teachers during formal observations. Are you kidding me? How, exactly, is this supposed to help teachers? My eyes would glaze over after reading the first 2 pages, I'm sure.

As for assessments, I agree with what you said, Haven. I'm not a huge proponent of standardized tests anyway, but they're not going anywhere. One thing that drives me insane is that children who receive special education services take the same test (or an alternative version, depending on the child's abilities). We're taught to differentiate our students, but then when it comes time to have them take a test, it's the same exact one that everyone else is taking. It doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't really like the way we grade children either. I hate report cards because the letters don't tell the parents anything. I'd rather do narrative report cards. The information we could give would be much more meaningful, and parents would know exactly how their child is doing academically and socially.

 

[atroop711]

I don't really like the way we grade children either. I hate report cards because the letters don't tell the parents anything. I'd rather do narrative report cards. The information we could give would be much more meaningful, and parents would know exactly how their child is doing academically and socially.[/quote]


ITTA with you on this grading. My children go to a progressive school and they give out narrative reports 3 times a year. This is completely different than how it was when I was in school and receiving letter grades. I love that the teacher can explain the strengths and weaknesses, ect. I know it takes more time to do it this way but I think it's such a better way.

 

[ksinger]

Ok, well I won't spare you mine. At the risk of burdening everyone with "anecdotal" proof, I can just say that this is not always true. This is so offensive to me on so many levels I couldn't let it go, and it takes quite a bit to rile me up. (I'm a teacher, too, and like to think I'm pretty patient and tolerant. )

I would agree that one of the most important things for a youth to find academic success is a strong mentor. That may be a parent, a teacher, a friend, a pastor, the list goes on. I worked at an alternative high school and I saw several kids who were truly gifted, but not mentored. Sure, there were the "gang" kids, but there were plenty of bright ones with a lot of academic promise. Then, let's add in the stigma toward children of low-income, single-parent, barely-educated families and these kids have no chance. I'm sad to say that I worked in several camps in an affluent neighborhood where the scholarship kids were treated differently (read:worse) by some of the counselors. Your point of view is one of the reasons these types of kids don't succeed. They are programmed to think they can't.

As for private vs public school, I think it depends. My mom (single parent of 2 by the time she was 21, by the way) sent me to Catholic school because I was more academically focused. She sent my brother to the large public high school because he wanted to play sports. We both thrived in our schools and have graduated from private universities, him with a BA, me working on a PhD. In the metro area I live in now, private school is the only option. The public schools are very weak and the one closest to me is somewhat dangerous.

Please excuse me if I'm taking this somewhat personally, as I have worked with many of these types of kids, and even was somewhat of one myself. I guess I'm still coming off of the "if I don't take my daughter out today, I'm a horrible father and she will be a stripper" comment from the other day. Give me a freaking break. I understand a less than ideal home can make success more difficult for a child, but ultimately that child will grow up and be in charge of forging their own path. I feel that my job as a teacher is to mentor and empower those children in addition to teaching them language.

Haven, I have to say that I agree with many of your comments and bet you are a fantastic teacher.

Edited: punctuation, age

OK...I'm not sure exactly what "this" you found so offensive, or who exactly, you were responding to, so I'll ask for a bit of clarification before deciding to respond at length. I truly hope you are not pointing to MY attitude as being remiss, since my husband has chosen to serve the population of kids in an area that is increasingly "dangerous", and is one of those schools that most people in this thread would run screaming from. And most TEACHERS also run screaming from. But again, I wait for clarification.

Geesh, but I hate the way this thing quotes. Grrr.

 

[anitabee]

"Students thrive when allowed to learn in a safe and supportive environment."

True. They also thrive when they are born to literate non-gang parents who weren't teen parents, who have a college education, jobs and money, and who read to them, feed them healthy food, and aren't currently at home sleeping off the last round of crack they took, says the wife of a teacher in a tough, impoverished urban district.

The single most important factor in student success is the STATUS OF THE PARENTS. Period. Any attempts to focus attention strictly on the schools, is a distraction from the real problem facing education today.

so true! correlation does not equal causation.

 

[swimmer]

To address the original question, mandatory private school? Um, then why do I pay property taxes?

I'm tired and just found out that I need to write 4 more letters of rec for college...kids who didn't bother to ask me prior to the deadline. And while I want to say no, this is my vacation, I really want them to get into college, so to respond here, I'm just going to paste an email that teachers have all seen before, but perhaps the OP will glean something from it:

“If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn’t be in business very long!”

I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the “Best Ice Cream in America.”

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging “knowledge society”. Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they

resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a woman’s hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant – she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, “We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.”

I smugly replied, “Best ice cream in America, Ma’am.”

“How nice,” she said. “Is it rich and smooth?”

“Sixteen percent butterfat,” I crowed.

“Premium ingredients?” she inquired.

“Super-premium! Nothing but triple A.” I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

“Mr. Vollmer,” she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, “when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?”

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap…. I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie.

“I send them back.”

“That’s right!” she barked, “and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business. It’s school!”

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, “Yeah! Blueberries!

Blueberries!”

And so began my long transformation. Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.
by Jamie Robert Vollmer 2002

 

[ksinger]

To address the original question, mandatory private school? Um, then why do I pay property taxes?

I'm tired and just found out that I need to write 4 more letters of rec for college...kids who didn't bother to ask me prior to the deadline. And while I want to say no, this is my vacation, I really want them to get into college, so to respond here, I'm just going to paste an email that teachers have all seen before, but perhaps the OP will glean something from it:

“If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn’t be in business very long!”

I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the “Best Ice Cream in America.”

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging “knowledge society”. Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they

resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a woman’s hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant – she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, “We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.”

I smugly replied, “Best ice cream in America, Ma’am.”

“How nice,” she said. “Is it rich and smooth?”

“Sixteen percent butterfat,” I crowed.

“Premium ingredients?” she inquired.

“Super-premium! Nothing but triple A.” I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

“Mr. Vollmer,” she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, “when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?”

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap…. I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie.

“I send them back.”

“That’s right!” she barked, “and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business. It’s school!”

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, “Yeah! Blueberries!

Blueberries!”

And so began my long transformation. Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.
by Jamie Robert Vollmer 2002

** reaching for a hankie ** I big 'ol puffy heart you Swimmer, that I do!

 

[KittyGolightly]

Wow, interesting thread! To answer the OP, I was fortunate to be able to attend parochial for elementary and high school. The public high school in my hometown was unsafe and offered very few opportunities for honors or AP level learning. So, my sister and I attended school in the next town over. There were some drawbacks. As one other poster mentioned, sometimes private school can be a very small fishbowl. For instance, my middle school only had one 8th grade class of about 25. It was very easy for one or two students to be ostracized for an entire year. Also, we had a bit of a commute which sometimes made it difficult to participate in extracurricular activities.

I don't have kids yet, but I purposely bought my condo in an area Los Angeles with a decent school district (I live in the South Bay). My preference would be to send my kids to a good public school rather than a smaller private school.

A few months ago, NPR ran a program on public school improvement, focusing mostly on the school district in Chattanooga. What I found very surprising was how little feedback, support, and training new teachers receive. The district attempted to correct this by identifying excellent teachers in each school. These teachers were then asked to mentor other teachers. They observed class interaction and helped to create better lesson plans. In case anyone is interested, you can listen to or read the program here: http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/testing_teachers/

 

[ksinger]

KSinger--I really enjoyed your post.

Siamese Kitty--Thank you. I imagine you're a fabulous teacher, yourself.
And thank you for sharing your experiences.

Someone asked what can be done to reform education.
I don't know about you, but I do my part every.single.day. You could always become a teacher. That's what those of us who care very passionately about this topic choose to do.

ETA: Or, you could marry one. ( KSinger)
We need partners who are willing to listen to our venting when we are extremely fed up. To feed us when we're too busy grading and researching and planning to feed ourselves. And to help us pay the bills when the school reformers cut our stipends in an effort to make things better.

True dat. Only I don't see him doing too much grading and such at home(he does do SOME at home), since he shifts the time a teacher might spend at home to the morning, being a freakishly early riser. He goes in at 5:30am every day and does his work in the quiet before classes begin. I must say I do appreciate that he does only the minimum at home. He deliberately carves out time for him...and US..to have a life. But I can tell you, he gets mighty grim at times. From here to the end of school is the worst...the pressure is just unreal.

I do hope I can help him to not have a heart attack. Just a few months after his dad retired, he did have a pretty impressive one. After 30 years teaching, I guess when he finally relaxed, the stress cracks finally came to the surface and BOOM. His dad is a good outlet for venting to, having taught through the integration/forced busing era, and a teacher's strike not long after. I'm afraid his dad's take on the situation here, and the greater issues facing the country, is pretty grim, and he's seen it all.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Ok, well I won't spare you mine. At the risk of burdening everyone with "anecdotal" proof, I can just say that this is not always true. This is so offensive to me on so many levels I couldn't let it go, and it takes quite a bit to rile me up. (I'm a teacher, too, and like to think I'm pretty patient and tolerant. )

I would agree that one of the most important things for a youth to find academic success is a strong mentor. That may be a parent, a teacher, a friend, a pastor, the list goes on. I worked at an alternative high school and I saw several kids who were truly gifted, but not mentored. Sure, there were the "gang" kids, but there were plenty of bright ones with a lot of academic promise. Then, let's add in the stigma toward children of low-income, single-parent, barely-educated families and these kids have no chance. I'm sad to say that I worked in several camps in an affluent neighborhood where the scholarship kids were treated differently (read:worse) by some of the counselors. Your point of view is one of the reasons these types of kids don't succeed. They are programmed to think they can't.

As for private vs public school, I think it depends. My mom (single parent of 2 by the time she was 21, by the way) sent me to Catholic school because I was more academically focused. She sent my brother to the large public high school because he wanted to play sports. We both thrived in our schools and have graduated from private universities, him with a BA, me working on a PhD. In the metro area I live in now, private school is the only option. The public schools are very weak and the one closest to me is somewhat dangerous.

Please excuse me if I'm taking this somewhat personally, as I have worked with many of these types of kids, and even was somewhat of one myself. I guess I'm still coming off of the "if I don't take my daughter out today, I'm a horrible father and she will be a stripper" comment from the other day. Give me a freaking break. I understand a less than ideal home can make success more difficult for a child, but ultimately that child will grow up and be in charge of forging their own path. I feel that my job as a teacher is to mentor and empower those children in addition to teaching them language.

Haven, I have to say that I agree with many of your comments and bet you are a fantastic teacher.

Edited: punctuation, age

OK...I'm not sure exactly what "this" you found so offensive, or who exactly, you were responding to, so I'll ask for a bit of clarification before deciding to respond at length. I truly hope you are not pointing to MY attitude as being remiss, since my husband has chosen to serve the population of kids in an area that is increasingly "dangerous", and is one of those schools that most people in this thread would run screaming from. And most TEACHERS also run screaming from. But again, I wait for clarification.

Geesh, but I hate the way this thing quotes. Grrr.

Ksinger, in all fairness I'm responding to several posts at once here, not all of which were made by you. The stripper comment is from Cuso's thread from before xmas.

I will try to return later to give a more detailed answer, but essentially the class/demographic generalizations regarding student potential really bother me. Of course I am aware of what the research shows. I just don't think it is constructive to perpetuate the findings. After talking with some of the students with whom I've worked, I have been horrified by some of the stories these kids have told me about their teachers. Stories I believed because I have seen it firsthand. This "harmless" statistical knowledge that anyone working in education has no doubt learned about in grad school trickles down to teacher attitudes in many cases. I can't help but wonder if one reason this evidence is so strong is because the kids are beat down at home, and then at school, too. Of course they are at a disadvantage. Sending a kid to the principal's office everyday because you don't like the way they dress or a principal kicking them out of the high school when they turn eighteen because they are a "nuisance" is very sad.

It's possible I'm not forming my argument well here-I've had a terrible cold for the past week that has put me in a FOG. I'm really enjoying everyone's different perspectives, though. It's really interesting to see what the other teachers think.

Ah, here's a question. How many of you live in districts where kids are permitted to go to their school of choice to facilitate desegregation? We're experiencing problems with this here, argument being lack of parent/community involvement because many of the students are from out of district.

 

[Haven]

Swimmer--Thank you for posting the Blueberries story. I tried to find it in my work email but couldn't, and was too frustrated to search for very long.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

We are going to send our kids to public school.

My dad is a college professor, I attended a slightly above average elementary school in a rural area and was homeschooled from grades 7-12. I aced SAT, ACT, AP tests, had almost a year of college credits when I started college, was a professional-level musican on three instruments, and was offered many scholarships--though much to my parents dismay I chose to attend a small private college where I received some, but not substantial, scholarships) and have since gotten a graduate certificate and a masters degree from two top universities and am now halfway through an MBA at an elite top-10 program while working as an executive for some of the world's leading cultural institutions.

Education has been very important to me and to my family. I think I would have achieved what I have regardless of whether I went to a public school, private school, or was homeschooled. I actually hated being homeschooled and lost at least 1 full year of academic work (maybe 2) while I was engaged in an epic battle of wills with my parents about that...

DH went to public schools the whole way through and is in the middle of a major career change (from music to medicine). He's very smart and though not quite as driven (crazy ) as me, works very hard and is fully up to whatever academic task he sets his mind to complete.

We live in NYC. We live in one of the worst school districts in Manhattan, District 6. Though there are a few "good" elementary and middle schools in our area they are overcrowed and difficult to get into. Many of our friends are teachers. Most of our friends are obsessed with sending their kids to private school (including the public teachers) the rest are obsessed with getting into the competative public schools like Hunter and Anderson.

Many of our friends who are choosing private schools are faced with long (1 hour plus each way) commutes to get their children to school, are liquidating all savings and retirement and are on very tight budgets or working second jobs to pay for it, and have experienced tremendous stress on their marriages due to the schooling choices. DH and I took our one set of friend's kids to school every day for a year and a half b/c they weren't able to get their kids to school and get to work ontime (they had to be at work at the same time their kids could get dropped off at school, they couldn't afford to pay a babysitter to take the kids b/c they had literally maxed everything out to pay the school tuition) because of our work schedules and locations we could. We had to get -up and leave 2 hours earlier than normal each morning to make this happen but our friends were in a difficult situation so we did it. We will not introduce that kind of unnecessary stress into our family's life. If we felt it was imperative for our child's well-being we would, but we don't think that it is.

We are going to choose to send our child/children to a public elementary school in our neighborhood where we feel our child is safe, the school has potential for positive change/growth, and where we can work to help that change occur.

We fully agree that massive public school reform is needed. We are not sure what the global solution is for the NYC system, or the national system as a whole; however, we are quite certain that if all the involved parents who can possibly afford it pull their children out of the public school system nothing will get better. We may not be able to effect global change (yet ) but we can impact the sphere of teachers, children, and parents we come in contact with...in fact, if we band together with other involved parents in our neighborhood, who knows how we could transform a school...a district...or something bigger...

Our feeling is this:

1. Parents are the single greatest influence on children and our children will be smart and hard-working if we make that a value at home and ensure they are challenged and taught to think through our interactions with them (which may include additonal work outside of school hours if they are not sufficiently challenged in school).

2. We want our children to be smart and successful and prepared to achieve what they want to accomplish in life; however, we also want them to be kind and compassionate and aware of the needs and issues in the world around them.

3. Private schools have some wonderful aspects, particularly in the way that teaching practices reflect current educational theory; however, they are not Shangri-La. We have friends whose elementary-aged black and latino children are full of self-hate about their skin color, subject to racism on a daily basis, and in general led to believe that looking and "acting" like their white peers (whatever that means) is best. We have friends with high-school aged children who are presented with a variety of intense circumstances regarding drugs, sex, peer-pressure and materialism that seem to be even more pervasive and negative than challenges experienced by our friends' kids in public high schools.

4. Clearly public and private schools have advantages and disadvantages and their influence on a child extends far beyond the academics to impact social, cultural, and relational aspects of a child's life

5. As involved parents in a public school hopefully we can in some way help shape not only our child's future but the future of other children in their classes

 

[Haven]

Bella--I really enjoyed reading your post, and I must say that you and your DH sound like wonderful friends. I was so touched to read your story about how you helped your friends by taking their children to school every day. You sound like very supportive, compassionate individuals. I imagine your children will be just fine regardless of the schools they attend.

 

[AprilBaby]

My four kids went to private school K-12 and all got an EXCELLENT education. My local school district is one of the top in Illinois. I don't regret a single penny I spent on private school.

 

[Imdanny]

Would be nice. Like in Harry Potter.

Not everyone can pay for it.

 

[CUSO]

My four kids went to private school K-12 and all got an EXCELLENT education. My local school district is one of the top in Illinois. I don't regret a single penny I spent on private school.

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

 

[HollyS]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

This. I'm the daughter of teachers, the granddaughter of a teacher, the niece of a teacher. My original foray into college was to be a teacher. Teachers, on the average, are NOT the problem. The Ivory Tower of administrators, reinventing the wheel every year with yet another innovation that will make those kiddos learn like they never learned from all of those past innovative ideas . . . uh huh. You betcha. The real problems:

Parents . . . probably.
Society . . . surely.
Resources . . . heck, yeah.
Politics . . . definitely.
Teachers . . . not so much.
Reinventing the wheel of 2+2=4, yet again . . . biggest problem of all.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

???

 

[ksinger]

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

???

I'll ditto that

 

[iLander]

I am happy to hear your experience. I have a choice to make. Spend $18k per year per kid on a private school (in 2 years), or spend $700k on a new house in a premier school district. I am in a good district, but not good enough for my taste. Remember folks, too each their own. I do understand it is a luxury to send your kid to a private school or to purchase a home is a desireable district, but that is our payoff for all of the sacrifices and hard work my wife and I endured.

???

I'll ditto that

He's trying to impress us, I think.

I can't keep reading Cuso's posts because then I will say what I think and I'll get another admin warning . . .

I will say this, though, Cuso; only $700K? That won't buy a guest house in my neighborhood.

Plus I'm one of those extreme lefties you mentioned earlier.

I think the public schools, and their underpaid teachers, do an amazing job.

 

[Haven]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

This. I'm the daughter of teachers, the granddaughter of a teacher, the niece of a teacher. My original foray into college was to be a teacher. Teachers, on the average, are NOT the problem. The Ivory Tower of administrators, reinventing the wheel every year with yet another innovation that will make those kiddos learn like they never learned from all of those past innovative ideas . . . uh huh. You betcha. The real problems:

Parents . . . probably.
Society . . . surely.
Resources . . . heck, yeah.
Politics . . . definitely.
Teachers . . . not so much.
Reinventing the wheel of 2+2=4, yet again . . . biggest problem of all.

 

[swimmer]

Ah . . . nevermind.

I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts about how removing the tenure system will fix all the problems of our school system. I'll say this: The teachers aren't the problem. Neither are the students. If outsiders could understand that, perhaps we could start making some progress.

This. I'm the daughter of teachers, the granddaughter of a teacher, the niece of a teacher. My original foray into college was to be a teacher. Teachers, on the average, are NOT the problem. The Ivory Tower of administrators, reinventing the wheel every year with yet another innovation that will make those kiddos learn like they never learned from all of those past innovative ideas . . . uh huh. You betcha. The real problems:

Parents . . . probably.
Society . . . surely.
Resources . . . heck, yeah.
Politics . . . definitely.
Teachers . . . not so much.
Reinventing the wheel of 2+2=4, yet again . . . biggest problem of all.

Holly, it happens more and more lately, but I totally agree with you.

(I only hope the other commie-pinko-lefties will still have me )