pricescope search and virtual listings question. Any zeros in there?

[johngalt2004]

On a simple pricescope search for "ags 0", many virtual listings come up (with multiple vendors) but have no specs except table, depth, and diameter. Typically the same diamond will be at azabias and whiteflash for example for just about the same price.... but no details available on either site.

What is the story with these - by what criteria did they get picked for the search if the dimension stats and ags cert cannot be viewed by any of the linked vendors?

These tend to be priced a good 25% lower than the ones that come up if I do a cut quality search that includes all the angle measures and scans of the certs on the vendor site.

What is the chance that one of these "25% off zeros" from the crude search are really ags zeros by light grading etc?

Can anyone elaborate on these virtual listings and how to interpret them? If there are bonafide ags 0''s to be had at that price it is a great deal... but are they common, a needle in a haystack, or Bigfoot?

 

[Regular Guy]

JG,

First of all...I''m not sure ,and good question.

Next...if you''ve determined you''re looking for current AGS0s...I''d consider trying tilting a bit differently.

By clicking on the big search "AGS0," you''re pulling diamonds marked in the "notes" column on a vendor''s description page...where a cutter or someone like that entered the text...AGS0...and this frequently is designed to stand in for the previously established, proportions based criteria that AGS did use. Just see and confirm for yourself: run such a search, and you''ll see more certs presented than from AGS, to include EGL.

To get what you want, consider 2 other strategies:

Hit instead, AGS, when opting for one cert or another. This at least DOES constrain for their certification. I think a higher number will be their zero.

Also, consider separately, using the "Price Stats" option under prices. Frankly...though this may work better for you...didn''t you say you might search another time for just a good EGL...well...this approach, if you determine to fish only for 1A per Dave''s typography of diamonds, may serve you best. Or...though I''ve never tried it...you might also do the same, if you''re looking for only AGS0, and then seek only AGS certs that come up in that listing.

Just some ideas for you. There may be better ones.

And, of course...as many advise here...if you do have a vendor in mind you''re working with (do you) frequently they have access to the same or similar lists, and might be able to look into these as well or better for you. I''m sympathetic to doing your own searching...but it''s possible that, partnering with a vendor on this mission, you will optimize your effort.

By the way, you might find of interest one of my early posts, which is archived in FAQs here on a related subject...

Regards,

 

[johngalt2004]

RG: thanks for the link - that was a good discussion.

I wonder, is the industry "sharp enough" to have identified and priced right the best stones? Is it? (I suspect the answer is "yes").

I'm thinking no cutter, wholesaler, or other "provider" is going to sell a vs2,H, 1ct ags zero for a price allowing an e-retailer to make a profit at $5400:
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-354639.htm
http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-354641.htm


When the prevailing e-retail price (except for these virtual listings) is more like $6400:
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-312252.htm
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-312253.htm


I mean wouldn't the "trade" have picked through those 60,000 stones and pulled the zeros and priced them accordingly?

Or is there a living to be made sending all those "virtual" listings to ags, earning the zero, and marking them up 15% (undercutting all our PS vendors)? Can't be right? So those first two links must be unlikely "true zero" candidates or they'd have been snatched up and graded by now by somebody..... right?

It's kind of like, would the former Attorney General have said "I don't recall" so much if the truth would work better? Same seems to go for the virtual listings... if the truth would work, why not tell it and make another grand on the stone?

 

[pyle112]

If you are simply comparing an AGS-0 to an AGS-0 then I beleive you can find "bargain" ags-0''s out there in virtual listings. Take the VS2 in this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/round-1-22-what-do-you-think.67709/
and further elaborated on in this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/1-2-ags0s-to-decide-between.67785/
with sarin''s etc.

I had WF bring this stone in, its cert said it was an AGS-0. It cost $6700 and a similar 1.2-1.25 ct H vs2 ACA will run you about $7500.

I think it should be mentioned that there is a range of performance for AGS-0''s. A lot of quality control and maketing goes into branding an AGS-0 as ACA, HOF, etc. Will they perform better than a bargain AGS-0, most probably, I''m not really sure. Will you notice the difference, I dont know...do you prefer BMW, Toyota or Ford?

 

[johngalt2004]

Pyle: I looked at those threads and never saw the AGS cert for the VS2. Could a stone really earn a light performance zero with that kinda crappy idealscope result? This is the kind of thing I''m trying to zero in on. Those two posts don''t show a DQD showing an AGS ideal cut.

So I am thinking that is an "old" ags ideal that doesn''t cut it on light perf? Or is the ags cert in that thread and I just missed it.

 

[pyle112]

Here is the cert. The date is March 2007. I am not sure if vendors still had the option to send obtain old ags certs at that time.

 

[johngalt2004]

bizarre. now i am really really nervous because I thought ags was more reliable than this... have been counting on it.

the certificate and the sarin report from your thread do not match very precisely.

sarin cert
table 55.9 55.6
depth 62.3 62.2
CA 35.5 35.6
PA 40.8 40.7


the cert numbers get a 2.1 HCA and are within the boundaries on the graph
the sarin numbers get a 2.6 and fall outside the border

and i am new at this but that ideascope picture looks downright awful does it not? i mean very horrible.

So this is a huge bummer... i had been counting on the ags zero as a hedge to make sure that even if overpaid a bit compared to the net, at least i got a truly stellar stone.

sigh... i am frustrated and back at square one. and the guy has declined to give me my money back. I have to complete the best deal with him that I can with $5K sunk so far. I am stressed out to the MAX. I thought a debacle like this ags-0 was not really out there and that a light based ags 0 was bulletproof.

 

[Regular Guy]

JG,

A few notes for you...

1) I have too little clinical experience (i.e., I'm not in the trade, by a long stretch) to have any justification for spending the amount of time I do on this board.
2) Still, I hear your pain
3) I'd like to see some experts comment.
4) One's motivated to seek out helpful advice, but where to turn.
5) Like Ellen in the noted thread...it is possible, and I fear probable, that the photography associated with an IS is not a good proof text.
6) I tried to prove this in this thread, where I found similar frustration...but see the images are removed.
7) I then just went to do a re-enactment, bringing up every diamond in the search by cut db, sorting by HCA score...but I couldn't re-create the result I got earlier. In other words...consistently, poorer HCA scores DID have poor IS's.

Without helpful comment, your frustration is ours.

 

[pyle112]

I struggled a lot to find my stone too, at least within my own sanity boundaries. I think any ags-0 stone will look great, with some exceptions. I think if a respected vendor here says it looks great, it probably does.

 

[johngalt2004]

RG: I know you "get me". Thanks.

Pyle: I am in the unfortunate position (trouble of my own making, as usual, to be sure) where I do not have the freedom to shop with whom I please at this point.

I know anyone whose advice I would want would not find themself in this position, but I could use some perspective. Maybe a cautionary tale for someone else, or maybe I''m not the only guy who ever found himself in this position.

I went to a gemologist/appraiser/importer/wholesaler I met though a "friend of a stranger"... dumb huh? Was recommended by someone on the net who sounded very sweet and sincere... and answered my Craigslist ad looking for a great deal on a certified ideal diamond. Indeed she probably is nice and she may have meant well. So anyway I got the guy''s number and he represented himself as a wholesaler (card says so and everything). He told me he buys for the best prices, takes 12%, and passes on the great deal. Made sense to be and I "bought it" ... felt lucky to make a connection with a guy high up the food chain (lol I know in retrospect I have been such a sucker here).

I go meet the guy 6PM on a Friday night. After a presentation and looking at a bunch of stones, the pitch is "I''ve got this 1.13 GIA certified 0 cut for $6400, and this egl 1 ct 1 cut for $4500. Can you tell them apart?". I could, albeit barely. I said "it is ELG USA right, I''ve heard bad things about foreign EGL". He said "yes, EGL USA". My guard was down on price, and I ended up peeling off the stack of bills to buy the EGL with cash. Left with a receipt, plan to pick up the ring the following Tuesday, and I had written the cert number down so I could go play with the numbers etc.

Turned out it is EGL Israel from the cert number, and I called him back the next day and said "forget that stone, I don''t want to compromise the cut and reallly want a AGS zero". From then till now he has been slippery. He calls with vague descriptions of stones, which I feel like I find on the net for about $1K less, or 20% give or take. I pointed him to some net pricing and I thought he was coming round (he is offering somewhat better choices now than the EGL but not by much... still seems to have an extra $1K written into every deal). For his latest offering (which sounds attractive if it is a real zero) I showed him the exact same dimension/weight/color/clarity stone on the PS search ... he said that can''t be the same stone my own cost is more than that. I asked if there was a scenario where he would return my money and retain a consulting fee and he put on the schmooze, changed the subject, and it seems pretty clear he is not going to entertain giving me my money back. So I am going to have to spend this $5K plus or minus a little... and things are tense. fwiw here is the stone I think he is pitching now (for $1K more than WF) http://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-178280.htm I have every suspicion that this is a crappy zero like the one a few posts above and have been trying to beat around the bush and test this without coming out with specifics. It is possible the best I will come out of this is overpaying by 25% for this stone... ugh!

Now I have to say is that if his offerings are by some chance the real article, true ags zeros with no monkey business... then he has been competitive with the net vendors. The stone I linked... if that is a nice zero then it is a find deal for $5300 I reckon. But I am afraid it is a "market reject" mistagged zero like the one above with the bad idealscope but ags zero cert (which rattled me all the rest of the way I wasn''t already rattled).

Here is where I could use some advice.

Should I go hard to the mat to try to get my money back? Risks antagonizing him more and making a bad situation worse, and he has a 9mm he showed when we left his office at 9PM. I am intimidated and don''t know if I have a right to the money back, or if that even matters since he has the cash and a gun. Now he has not overtly intimidated me or raised his voice... but he has shown lets say a pretty strong reluctance to give me back that money... any of it.

Should I trade DOWN as far as he will let me? This might mitigate my loss, might not. Again it would be transparent what I was doing and might antagonize him more. For example ask to shift gears completely, buy a cheap .64 ELG stone to match the one we''re upgrading from and make those into earrings someday, and try to recover the difference to shop somewhere else for the anniversary ring.

Should I trade up to a nice zero stone, and say "screw the $1K", and just file away the lesson for next time? Just give up on getting the deal closer to internet pricing and try to come out, while overpaying, at least with the great rock? It''s not like I have never gotten the best end of a deal before... can''t happen every time right?

Or last but not least i could complete the deal for the overpriced EGL, but I don''t want my wife to have less because her husband was a dumbass.

 

[FireGoddess]

You paid him, and the ring was to be ready the following week. You called 24 hours later to reneg.

I''d try to get my money back. You have a right to it, as far as I can see.

I frankly wouldn''t want to keep dealing with this guy.

 

[johngalt2004]

I''ve asked for it, even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). "You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... " creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

If/when it comes time to stop being friendly about it I''m not sure exactly what to say or how to say it... or whether I have a snowball''s chance anyhow. And it is not too late for me to avoid going there.... in the past sometimes restraint of tongue and pen has served me well. If he offered my money back I would take it that''s for sure. Doesn''t seem to be on the table though without excalating tension dramatically and researching legal options perhaps.

 

[FireGoddess]

It''s easier of course for an outsider like myself to say ''get your money back!!!'' - I can tell from your posts it''s not a simple thing and this guy is resistant. But of COURSE he is resistant - he''s going to make some decent bank off of you and doesn''t want to let the ''fish'' off the hook, so to speak.

Is there a way to approach this with respect to ''time'' - as in, ''This is what I now need. I need it by X date. If there is no stone to my liking by X date (like, 5-7 days from now) then I want my money back.'' Showing a willingness to work with him but not be taken to the cleaners. Not the best approach either though, IMO.

Alternatively, tell him you had a huge fight with the GF and you have broken up, and will not be getting engaged any time soon. You want the cash back. Period. No use for the stone. At this point, seriously, I would just want to STOP dealing with this guy and would do whatever I needed to do to get it done, including lying about not needing it anymore.

If it''s a matter of overpaying a little but getting what you want, well, you might choose that route just to get it done. But if it''s also sacrificing the quality you want...well....you''re never going to see this guy again, you don''t owe him anything, and you never took possession of the stone. He has your money and you have a receipt to prove it. Get that cash back! Sorry though, I can sense the pickle you''re in.

 

[Ellen]

I have to agree with FG, I''d want to end this relationship now. Unfortunately, you are in a bit of a pickle.

I''ve been in situations a few times in my life where I felt backed into a corner, I know it''s not fun. But, I also got creative, got mad, fought back, and won. If I were you, I would tell him you''ve had enough, that he hasn''t come through for you and you want to move on. Period. Times up.

I would also gently remind him that he''s correct, you ARE the type of customer that will go back and tell your friends about this guy, be it good, or bad.

That if he truly wants to please you, as any reputable jeweler would, return the money, now. If that doesn''t work, tell him you''ll turn him into the JVC, and the BBB.

He''s not gonna shoot you, just maybe get really mad. (I had a jeweler literally get in my face and yell at me after I had to demand a refund that was rightfully mine, because asking nicely twice hadn''t worked. Lovely)

So what, let him get mad, you''re not too happy either.

 

[pyle112]

John,

Asking for your money back does sound tricky. Why not just "settle" for an AGS-0 like you originally planned? Could you live with the fact that your diamond might perform as "badly" as the idealscope of the vs2 that I posted? WF told me that the stone looked beautiful...for me the stone did not completely fit my budget and I found more promising alternatives by dropping my clarity.

Now the price differences are a different story, you may have to live with that if you don''t get your money back.

 

[johngalt2004]

I don''t know how an idealscope translates to real life.

Is the one above not as terrible as it looks to me? Or does the idealscope not necessarily translate to how it looks in real life too directly?

It is flustering that an ags zero could have a good/fair looking idealscope image with all that white in the table like above. But maybe my pent up hysteria is making me exaggerate.

Do you think a diamond afficionado would sniff at the one up above if they saw it in real life, without a scope or the angle numbers in front of them?

 

[aljdewey]

JG, I feel badly watching you SO SERIOUSLY stress in several threads these last few days.

I know it can be unnerving to go through this process because there''s so much information at hand, and it''s all totally foreign. On the other hand, I think it''s wise to know how to apply the information you get........so as to avoid analysis paralysis. To address some of your questions.....

I''m thinking no cutter, wholesaler, or other ''provider'' is going to sell a vs2,H, 1ct ags zero for a price allowing an e-retailer to make a profit at $5400......when the prevailing e-retail price (except for these virtual listings) is more like $6400:.......I mean wouldn''t the ''trade'' have picked through those 60,000 stones and pulled the zeros and priced them accordingly?.........Or is there a living to be made sending all those ''virtual'' listings to ags, earning the zero, and marking them up 15% (undercutting all our PS vendors)? Can''t be right? So those first two links must be unlikely ''true zero'' candidates or they''d have been snatched up and graded by now by somebody..... right?

No....not likely right, for several reasons which may include:

1. It requires far more waste (lost $$) to produce a top-make stone than it does to produce moderately fine or average-make stones. In order to maximize revenue, cutters must maximize yield. That means not every stone is going to be a top-make.

2. If everyone could cherry-pick, no one would want to buy the lesser-make stones and producers would be left with lots of immovable dead inventory, which would paralyze their operating capital. One solution is moving them in parcels....similar concept to computer companies bundling products. Tiffany will only sell their highly desired setting as a completed ring.....so you''ll have to buy THEIR diamond. Bundling.

2. Customers'' wants are driven by their own value systems. Engineer types who like the idea of precision and perfection are more likely to want AGS0 level or better. Some size-whore gals don''t care if it''s cut deeper than Loch Ness, as long as the paper says 2 ct. Some folks prioritize buying from a ''name'' they recognize, and since GIA is more commonly known by the average jewelry consumer, it makes sense that some will desire GIA stones. What I''m trying to tell you here: AGS0 is the pinnacle for YOU, but it may not be the pinnacle for everyone.

As such, there''s no real incentive to dealers to spend a ton of time providing administrative details that most customers won''t require to purchase. Nor do they want to provide info that might knock a stone from consideration easily. Hence, depth/table/diameter is what they provide.....gives enough info to suggest attractiveness, but not enough to disqualify.

3. "Snatching up" such hidden fine-make stones among a huge virtual inventory isn''t a free exercise. It entails bringing stones in for evaluation based on very rough info and paying the costs to ship them/return them if they don''t pan out. It''s probably not economically feasible to practice calling in all manner of stones on the prospect of finding a few higher-price-point candidates. The expense of doing so would likely far outpace any perceived elevated profit proposition.

Could a stone really earn a light performance zero with that kinda crappy idealscope result?

Who said the idealscope for that stone was "crappy"?

Look, there are a ton of prosumer armchair experts here, but you should know that even some of the most eager ''students'' here don''t have any formal gem training---myself included. Sure, we''re well-meaning, but realize that opinions of trained AGS gemologists are far superior to anecdotal opinions of us PSers who 1) don''t have any formal gem training, 2) have never actually SEEN the stone in question, and 3) who are using only ONE of a host of evaluative tools (idealscope image) to form an our amateur opinions.

Trained AGS graders actually viewed that stone, put it through evaluative paces, and deemed it worthy of 0 light performance. I''d rely on that MUCH more than amateur interpretations of an idealscope image. When I have a heart problem, I want to know what a prominent, top-in-class cardiologist thinks.....not my next door neighbor whose only scientific training was high school biology and chemistry, right?

Even if that neighbor has a passion for medicine and has read of ton of medical journals (knows more than the average bear), he''s still not formally trained and lacks real hands-on experience. Would you want to have your surgery performed by someone who has done it 100 times, or by someone who has only read about it but never held a scalpel? Yep....me too.

bizarre. now i am really really nervous because I thought ags was more reliable than this... have been counting on it.

sarin cert
table 55.9 55.6
depth 62.3 62.2
CA 35.5 35.6
PA 40.8 40.7

Respectfully....you are freaking out about *nothing*. Do you realize how ridiculously infinitessimal these differences are? You couldn''t, or else you''d realize that those difference could amount to nothing more than a calibration difference in equipment. If I tell you I ran a mile in 6 minutes, and your stopwatch shows I did it in 6 minutes and .0123 seconds, does it make a difference AT ALL? Nope - not unless I''m a damn olympic runner!

John, I get that you want to get something that represents excellence, and I commend that. But you''re taking this thing way too extreme, and you''re going to defeat yourself in the process by being unable to feel confident in your selection. Let me make a suggestion.....work with a vendor you feel confident in, and trust that you''ll both work to make you happy. Verify that choice by having your diamond independently appraised so you have checks-balances (trust but verify).

Seriously....don''t make this harder than it has to be. Good luck.

 

[johngalt2004]

I think if I knew the pain was solely limited to $1K plus my mental anguish... I would reconcile it to "you can''t win ''em all."

After all my 401K had a monster day today right?

I just want more of a clean transparent deal and I think that bugs me more than overpaying... that I have to keep an eye on the rear view mirror so intently here.

Still opting to keep things friendly so far. After all, if the stone I linked above has a white inclusion that can be covered with a prong and is a legit zero... I guess all''s well that ends well.

My confidence in the ags 0 has been shaken though and I had really hung my hat on that

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/18/2007 4:43:25 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''ve asked for it (refund)..... even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). ''You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... '' creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

I''d tell him:

"Good. I''m glad to hear that. Here''s what it takes to satisfy me for the moment: a refund.

And you''re right.....if I''m satisfied (refund), I''m going to tell friends what a great experience I had with you, even though I wasn''t able to get precisely what I wanted this time, and how I will definitely come back to you based on my good experience with you.

HOWEVER, if I''m not satisfied, I''m going to tell my friends as well. I''m going to tell them that I''d never do business with you again and that I resent being held hostage simply because I decided to change my purchase decision.

Your call, Mr. Vendor. Which story would you like me to tell?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:14:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 9/18/2007 4:43:25 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''ve asked for it (refund)..... even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). ''You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... '' creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

I''d tell him:

''Good. I''m glad to hear that. Here''s what it takes to satisfy me for the moment: a refund.

And you''re right.....if I''m satisfied (refund), I''m going to tell friends what a great experience I had with you, even though I wasn''t able to get precisely what I wanted this time, and how I will definitely come back to you based on my good experience with you.

HOWEVER, if I''m not satisfied, I''m going to tell my friends as well. I''m going to tell them that I''d never do business with you again and that I resent being held hostage simply because I decided to change my purchase decision.

Your call, Mr. Vendor. Which story would you like me to tell?

Ditto. That''s basically what I said.

 

[johngalt2004]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:14:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 9/18/2007 4:43:25 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''ve asked for it (refund)..... even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). ''You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... '' creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

I''d tell him:

''Good. I''m glad to hear that. Here''s what it takes to satisfy me for the moment: a refund.

And you''re right.....if I''m satisfied (refund), I''m going to tell friends what a great experience I had with you, even though I wasn''t able to get precisely what I wanted this time, and how I will definitely come back to you based on my good experience with you.

HOWEVER, if I''m not satisfied, I''m going to tell my friends as well. I''m going to tell them that I''d never do business with you again and that I resent being held hostage simply because I decided to change my purchase decision.

Your call, Mr. Vendor. Which story would you like me to tell?

I''ve considered it. Doing that wipes out any remnant of faux good will that might remain to piece together a reasonable deal, who knows maybe even a good one. So it is delicate. Sorry for barfing this anxiety all over this nice message board...

 

[FireGoddess]

I think Alj's long post was spot on. Totally agree with her.

BTW, full disclosure here - I thought your remark that the VS2 idealscope image was 'crappy' was kinda ridiculous. Was the stone leaking some light under the table? Yes - but that IS hardly looked as 'crappy' to me as you remarked. I'm talking as a full fledged non professional here.

ETA: And yes, the diffs between the sarin and the report are basically nill...ditto again to what Alj said.

 

[jpk1102]

I really, really feel for you JohnGalt2004. I honestly do. I guess one of the most important lession''s I''ve learned in life is "if it looks too good to be true, it IS usually to good to be true."

I also have been searching for a diamond (although far less bucks than you are) and I guess I count myself very lucky to have found PS,. Judging from you membership info, we joined just four days apart.

In my initial search, I had lots of returns on my Google search and was dazed and confused. I was also checking Craig''s list, but thought, how would I know what I was getting???

Then I found PS and the world for me changed.

Being a smart diamond buyer (or any buyer of any commodity for that matter) means you gotta take steps to protect yourself. Check a company''s time in business, reputation and response to customer complaints with the BBB. I did and I can tell you MOST on this forum came through with shining colors.

Any diamond vendor wants the deal......it''s what lengths they''ll go through to make sure you are happy with the deal that counts.

I agree with Ellen and Alij"s posts: fight to get your money back. You said doing so might squelch any chance of peicing together a reasonable deal. No reputable seller would put a customer in that kind of situation. Cut our losses, fight to get your money back or suck up the extra 1K and make a deal on a stone you can live with.

Sometimes we make ourselves our own victims.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Aljdewey's post was a good reset for this thread. That is no knock on the collective wisdom here at all (!) part of PS is about scrutiny - but when newcomers realize the depth involved in "all of this" there is a tendancy for your blood pressure to get raised unnecessarily sometimes John.

Those Sarin/lab report differences are so slight that they are insignificant in human terms. Non-contact scanners like Sarin, Ogi and Helium have a given error. Sarin’s error is ± 0.2 degrees angular and 2.0% linear... If a discrepancy occurs we consider the lab grading report the document of authority (the exception being the GIA report where numbers are rounded and the Sarin is potentially closer). Really though, a tenth or percent is nothing to worry about. I loved Alj's mile comparison...and would so love to see her on the track next year in Beijing (USA! USA!).

And don't think you're alone. We've seen people on PS worry because an appraiser's scale weighed a loose diamond one thousandth of a carat more or less than the AGS report. That is another example of the effort to give as much info as possible backfiring: The Federal Trade Commision only requires diamonds be weighed to the tenth of a carat. Most major labs report to the hundredth of a carat and the AGS actually overachieves by weighing to the thousandth of a carat. There is a limit to repeatability and accuracy at three decimal places though: Even variations in geographic elevation (which increases the distance from the center of the earth) and in latitude (due to slight error caused by the centrifugal force of the earth spinning) will influence measurements, scale to scale, at that level.

Detail oriented people (I am one of them) habitually crunch numbers, and as the enormity of a purchase gets close we can get into a frenzy of worry about a tick of a pavilion or crown angle, or something minute on an IS. Worse...even though you’re already at infinitesimal levels the more layers you peel the more reveal. ..."What if upper girdle facet #1 has a 0.1 degree deviation in slope and azimuth shift of -0.2 degrees from ugf #16?!" Caramba!

For the record, we're a bit spoiled on PS by the IS images we routinely see. It's seriously like a Miss Universe pageant. Same thing with optical symmetry. If you purchase an ideal-scope, start looking at the diamonds walking around on the hands of most people on the planet and you'll see much different examples than the very-similar images we see on PS, where cut-quality is the preeminent focus.

Here, in global terms, are premium - average - and poor ideal-scope images.

 

[johngalt2004]

I''m grateful for the corrections on the idealscope and the difference in angles (although those diffs take it a whole half point further from a 2 on the HCA grade).

I am not cocky about assessing diamonds. Totally a humble (if windy) newb trying to figure things out with logic the best I can. That''s why I want to make a reasonable trade on paper.

I could not tell a "good zero" from a "bad zero" probably in real life... almost no chance - I am a feeble middle aged man who needs lasik surg.

So if I said something ridiculous or offensive about the ideascope image I am sorry. From the context of that other thread, a relatively poor idealscope image seemed to be a lot of the basis for rejecting that stone. I misinterpreted.

I think actually I will see this through politely to the bitter end and just take pains to make sure I end up with a DQD showing AGS 0. I wonder if even dare HCA it... or my head would explode if my zero got a 2.1 probably

 

[pyle112]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:58:27 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''m grateful for the corrections on the idealscope and the difference in angles (although those diffs take it a whole half point further from a 2 on the HCA grade).


I am not cocky about assessing diamonds. Totally a humble (if windy) newb trying to figure things out with logic the best I can. That''s why I want to make a reasonable trade on paper.


I could not tell a ''good zero'' from a ''bad zero'' probably in real life... almost no chance - I am a feeble middle aged man who needs lasik surg.


So if I said something ridiculous or offensive about the ideascope image I am sorry. From the context of that other thread, a relatively poor idealscope image seemed to be a lot of the basis for rejecting that stone. I misinterpreted.


I think actually I will see this through politely to the bitter end and just take pains to make sure I end up with a DQD showing AGS 0. I wonder if even dare HCA it... or my head would explode if my zero got a 2.1 probably

Please not, I never rejected the stone. Its a nice stone. I just found something priced better with lower clarity.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:58:13 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Here, in global terms, are premium - average - and poor ideal-scope images.

JQ,

I guess the images you presented above don''t re-present themselves here.

But...and since I think this is your own option, perhaps brought in (?), an AGS0...how would you rank it/place it among those three?

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:25:26 PM
Author: johngalt2004

Date: 9/18/2007 6:14:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 9/18/2007 4:43:25 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''ve asked for it (refund)..... even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). ''You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... '' creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

I''d tell him:

''Good. I''m glad to hear that. Here''s what it takes to satisfy me for the moment: a refund.

And you''re right.....if I''m satisfied (refund), I''m going to tell friends what a great experience I had with you, even though I wasn''t able to get precisely what I wanted this time, and how I will definitely come back to you based on my good experience with you.

HOWEVER, if I''m not satisfied, I''m going to tell my friends as well. I''m going to tell them that I''d never do business with you again and that I resent being held hostage simply because I decided to change my purchase decision.

Your call, Mr. Vendor. Which story would you like me to tell?

I''ve considered it. Doing that wipes out any remnant of faux good will that might remain to piece together a reasonable deal, who knows maybe even a good one. So it is delicate. Sorry for barfing this anxiety all over this nice message board...

I''m assuming you know, John, that we weren''t suggesting you deliver the message in precisely that way.......but I DO think it''s fair to say

"hey, I appreciate all you''ve done for me, but I just am not sold on the stone. I''d really be more comfortable at this point just cancelling the transaction and getting a refund.
If you''re willing to meet this to satisfy me, I can assure you that I''ll continue to consider you for this purchase as well as future purchases. What can we do to resolve this?"

As someone in sales myself, I actually APPRECIATE when a client is direct in telling me what it''s going to take to make them happy. It''s SO much better than guessing, possibly being WRONG, and losing the customer for good.

There''s nothing wrong with asking for what you want, and doing so doesn''t negate the ability to resolve this to your satisfaction.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:58:27 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''m grateful for the corrections on the idealscope and the difference in angles (although those diffs take it a whole half point further from a 2 on the HCA grade).

I am not cocky about assessing diamonds. Totally a humble (if windy) newb trying to figure things out with logic the best I can. That''s why I want to make a reasonable trade on paper.

I could not tell a ''good zero'' from a ''bad zero'' probably in real life... almost no chance - I am a feeble middle aged man who needs lasik surg.

So if I said something ridiculous or offensive about the ideascope image I am sorry. From the context of that other thread, a relatively poor idealscope image seemed to be a lot of the basis for rejecting that stone. I misinterpreted.

I think actually I will see this through politely to the bitter end and just take pains to make sure I end up with a DQD showing AGS 0. I wonder if even dare HCA it... or my head would explode if my zero got a 2.1 probably

John, please don''t feel like you were offensive! You don''t owe anyone an apology!

For my part, I wasn''t intending to chastise you for interpretation, but rather trying to reassure you that it''s not as bad or as hard as it seems. Somewhere along the way, you most certainly read something (here or elsewhere) that led you to think "oh, that''s a poor IS image". Seeing how you may have been given the wrong impression or information, the best way to help you is to help refocus on solid information.

Sometimes, it''s easy to lose sight of that when we''re new here and trying to figure out all the pieces. It''s easy to lose sight of the forest by obsessing on individual trees.

Don''t worry.....you''ll do well.

The most meaningful piece of advice I can give you is to enlist a reputable appraiser. If your plan is to narrow down to an AGS0 stone, the appraiser can help give you that extra reassurance you''re looking for that it is a top-performing stone in HIS opinion, too.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/18/2007 6:20:25 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/18/2007 6:14:38 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 9/18/2007 4:43:25 PM
Author: johngalt2004
I''ve asked for it (refund)..... even offered to pay a consulting fee... and was smoothly and expertly shined on and promised a call back this morning (it is 1:35PM here now). ''You''re the kind of customer I want to satisfy because I know you''ll tell friends ... '' creating an impression that he may step up and deliver the great stone at the fair price, while denying that the stone he suggested is the same one I found on the net. He has always been a flake about returning calls since the get go.

I''d tell him:

''Good. I''m glad to hear that. Here''s what it takes to satisfy me for the moment: a refund.

And you''re right.....if I''m satisfied (refund), I''m going to tell friends what a great experience I had with you, even though I wasn''t able to get precisely what I wanted this time, and how I will definitely come back to you based on my good experience with you.

HOWEVER, if I''m not satisfied, I''m going to tell my friends as well. I''m going to tell them that I''d never do business with you again and that I resent being held hostage simply because I decided to change my purchase decision.

Your call, Mr. Vendor. Which story would you like me to tell?

Ditto. That''s basically what I said.

Yep - you did, and you said it better. I just missed it while I was posting my novel-length post

Well done, Ellen.....as usual, you''re spot on!