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Predicted AGS round cut grade score on a kicken virtual OEC?

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strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
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23,295
From the AGS software:

Proportion 0
Deduction

Light 2
Performance
Deduction


Culet 0

Girdle 0



Weight 0
Ratio

Tilt 0



Durability 0



Contrast 2.26



Leakage 0



Dispersion .20



Brightness 0

Final score 2.0 with Ideal sym and polish.

38/40.5/45T/60lgf%



testingoec.jpg
 
Nice storm..., what would make it qualify for a 0 grade? CA?

Is it even possible with such a table and these lgf's??
 
Sorry...but that''s not a look I''d ever go for in an OEC...Too frenetic around the edges and weird looking...Sometimes, computers cant create the art that a human being can.
 
Date: 3/26/2008 7:28:51 PM
Author: surfgirl
Sorry...but that''s not a look I''d ever go for in an OEC...Too frenetic around the edges and weird looking...Sometimes, computers cant create the art that a human being can.
SG..., a bit steeper PA and a polished culet on a real Diamond you would think differently...
2.gif
 
DG AGS do not consider proportions except for durability issues.
 
Date: 3/26/2008 7:48:20 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
DG AGS do not consider proportions except for durability issues.
Thanks..., see..., you learn something every day.:} I guess you can tell I am so out of the tech science of rounds...

So they base their 0 grade on what? On performance only?
Why are you limited to steep deep, stars and lgf''s etc..etc...?
 
Date: 3/26/2008 7:28:51 PM
Author: surfgirl
Sorry...but that''s not a look I''d ever go for in an OEC...Too frenetic around the edges and weird looking...Sometimes, computers cant create the art that a human being can.
Somethings computers can do - that is compare cuts
Here is the ETAS (effective total angular size) that compares to a Tolkowsky stone (tolk on the right)
Note the size of the coloured flashes in the old cut.
Note also the spaces on 45 degree axes in the old cut that would lead AGS to consider it not as firey :-(

ETAS old cut.JPG
 
So Gary, which of those is more desirable because I dont see that one image is standing out to me as fantastic as compared to the other...Or is it comparing apples to oranges? Or papayas??

DG, that above image looks too "busy" to my eye around the perimeter...It''s what I dont like about some ECs - the business around the short ends, contrasted to the quietness of the middle...if that makes sense..??
 
Date: 3/26/2008 8:30:53 PM
Author: surfgirl
So Gary, which of those is more desirable because I dont see that one image is standing out to me as fantastic as compared to the other...Or is it comparing apples to oranges? Or papayas??

DG, that above image looks too 'busy' to my eye around the perimeter...It's what I dont like about some ECs - the business around the short ends, contrasted to the quietness of the middle...if that makes sense..??
apples too oranges really.
The real thing would look 3d and have z-axis contrast.
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/z-axis-contrast-3d-the-forgotten-aspect-of-diamond-performance.80889/

You also might prefer a larger table in an oec too limit the overall percentage of small virtual facets.

As you can see the spaces between the lines are large in the center and small out from the table then mid-sized further out.
These are virtual facets, if you compare them too the same areas above they are clearly visible.

oecvirtualfacets.jpg
 
Date: 3/26/2008 7:25:45 PM
Author: DiaGem
Nice storm..., what would make it qualify for a 0 grade? CA?

Is it even possible with such a table and these lgf''s??
its not possible in the limited combos I have tried.
You keep the mains bright you get hit with too little table contrast and if you make them dark you get hit with a deduction for too much contrast.
There really is no middle ground.
All it really proves is that they need their own cut grade system, The AGS round system does not work on them even though they have the same facet structure.
 
This would be a more typical high performance oec

moretypicaloec.jpg
 
notice that the largest virtual facets are slightly smaller with the larger table and that there are fewer small virtual facets and more mid-sized ones.

moretypicaloecReflect.jpg
 
Date: 3/26/2008 8:30:53 PM
Author: surfgirl
So Gary, which of those is more desirable because I dont see that one image is standing out to me as fantastic as compared to the other...Or is it comparing apples to oranges? Or papayas??

DG, that above image looks too ''busy'' to my eye around the perimeter...It''s what I dont like about some ECs - the business around the short ends, contrasted to the quietness of the middle...if that makes sense..??
Surfgirl there are differences, it is complex and 2 women waitng for me
 
Date: 3/26/2008 9:37:07 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 3/26/2008 8:30:53 PM

Author: surfgirl

So Gary, which of those is more desirable because I dont see that one image is standing out to me as fantastic as compared to the other...Or is it comparing apples to oranges? Or papayas??


DG, that above image looks too 'busy' to my eye around the perimeter...It's what I dont like about some ECs - the business around the short ends, contrasted to the quietness of the middle...if that makes sense..??
Surfgirl there are differences, it is complex and 2 women waitng for me
Well Gary, now you have THREE women waiting for you... *taps foot impatiently*...
28.gif


Storm, DG, I'm not sure what software you're using but is there a way you can scan people's old cuts into that program and see what they look like? I'm just curious as it would be interesting to see actual PSers old stones in those very scientific mappings, etc...
31.gif
 
Date: 3/26/2008 9:39:56 PM
Author: surfgirl

Well Gary, now you have THREE women waiting for you... *taps foot impatiently*...
28.gif


Storm, DG, I''m not sure what software you''re using but is there a way you can scan people''s old cuts into that program and see what they look like? I''m just curious as it would be interesting to see actual PSers old stones in those very scientific mappings, etc...
31.gif
yep all I need is a 3d sarin or helium file.
Jon may even have one around someplace if he sold an oec recently.
 
Since I never bought a "new" stone, I'm not familiar with how one actually gets a Sarin report. Do most good independent appraisers have the equipment to provide a Sarin report?

ETA: What's a helium file?
 
Date: 3/26/2008 9:52:09 PM
Author: surfgirl
Since I never bought a ''new'' stone, I''m not familiar with how one actually gets a Sarin report. Do most good independent appraisers have the equipment to provide a Sarin report?

ETA: What''s a helium file?
some do some dont. The stone has to be lose too be ran on the scanner.

helium is a scanner like the sarin but better.
 
Darn. I was hoping I could do it for my stone. Oh well...
 
Date: 3/26/2008 9:37:07 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/26/2008 8:30:53 PM
Author: surfgirl
So Gary, which of those is more desirable because I dont see that one image is standing out to me as fantastic as compared to the other...Or is it comparing apples to oranges? Or papayas??

DG, that above image looks too ''busy'' to my eye around the perimeter...It''s what I dont like about some ECs - the business around the short ends, contrasted to the quietness of the middle...if that makes sense..??
Surfgirl there are differences, it is complex and 2 women waitng for me
well, the difference is they can hurt me with sticks and stones
14.gif
, and you can only call me names
36.gif


Note the earlier ETAS had bigger flashes that will jump at you - why many people like older cuts, where as the other Tolkowsky round has smaller but more frequent flashes.
Now this time we have DETAS - same as before but Dynamic. The stone has been rotated 2 degrees and the flashes (or potential sources of light) are also colour coded.
I will see if Sergey can drop by to explain more, but as before you see much bigger stronger flashes, but less of them.

I am a little concerned however Storm as your new stone will loose most of theose face up flashes near the center because of head obstruction of light sources.

DETAS old cut.JPG
 
Date: 3/27/2008 2:21:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
well, the difference is they can hurt me with sticks and stones
14.gif
, and you can only call me names
36.gif


Note the earlier ETAS had bigger flashes that will jump at you - why many people like older cuts, where as the other Tolkowsky round has smaller but more frequent flashes.
Now this time we have DETAS - same as before but Dynamic. The stone has been rotated 2 degrees and the flashes (or potential sources of light) are also colour coded.
I will see if Sergey can drop by to explain more, but as before you see much bigger stronger flashes, but less of them.

I am a little concerned however Storm as your new stone will loose most of theose face up flashes near the center because of head obstruction of light sources.
with a 60% lgf% head shadow issues if a fact of life, they look better at arm length than 1/2 way too your face.
There is really no way around it.
A big difference between a poorly angled oec and a well cut one is that the poorly angled one can look good at 6 feet and good one at 2. Just the difference in head shadow between the IS and ASET can make a huge difference in how the image looks in some combos and how they will look in person.
Head shadow is a highly underrated component of diamond performance in fancies and a major failing of the ags SE/EC cut system by only considering 30 and 40 degrees.

A fic(long lgf%) would be better up close but you lose the large flashes and are back too small too very small ones.

Can DC pro automate images with varying head shadow for a given combo?
They would be a real eye opener with fancy cuts and also prove my point.
I am really giving too much of my design secrets away in this post. :}
 
btw in some combos im still getting inconsistant results with the virtual IS vs ASET and JS/black in DC.
With JS/black and ASET agreeing and IS out there.
 
This is the first one in this thread..
virtual IS

oecIS.jpg
 
DC virtual ASET

oecASET.jpg
 
AGS software virtual ASET

AGSoec.jpg
 
The ASET images in the table area show why AGS kicked it down for contrast.
But too darken the mains they will hit it the other way.

The JS lighting shows that its not a very practical real world indication of how the stone works.
I have ran into this with high crown asschers also. I think the high crown messes with the relationship between the reflectors and the stone that works with lower crowns differently.
Maybe Serg will know?
testingoec.jpg
 
Date: 3/27/2008 3:29:03 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/27/2008 2:21:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
well, the difference is they can hurt me with sticks and stones
14.gif
, and you can only call me names
36.gif


Note the earlier ETAS had bigger flashes that will jump at you - why many people like older cuts, where as the other Tolkowsky round has smaller but more frequent flashes.
Now this time we have DETAS - same as before but Dynamic. The stone has been rotated 2 degrees and the flashes (or potential sources of light) are also colour coded.
I will see if Sergey can drop by to explain more, but as before you see much bigger stronger flashes, but less of them.

I am a little concerned however Storm as your new stone will loose most of theose face up flashes near the center because of head obstruction of light sources.
with a 60% lgf% head shadow issues if a fact of life, they look better at arm length than 1/2 way too your face.
There is really no way around it.

Why is head shadow such an issue..., what % of time you wear your Diamond in jewelry gets obstructed by head shadow?

A big difference between a poorly angled oec and a well cut one is that the poorly angled one can look good at 6 feet and good one at 2. Just the difference in head shadow between the IS and ASET can make a huge difference in how the image looks in some combos and how they will look in person.
Head shadow is a highly underrated component of diamond performance in fancies and a major failing of the ags SE/EC cut system by only considering 30 and 40 degrees.

A fic(long lgf%) would be better up close but you lose the large flashes and are back too small too very small ones.
Which is good for head shadow appearance but less for overall appearance (my taste)!

Can DC pro automate images with varying head shadow for a given combo?
They would be a real eye opener with fancy cuts and also prove my point.
I am really giving too much of my design secrets away in this post. :}
 
Date: 3/27/2008 3:52:34 AM
Author: strmrdr
The ASET images in the table area show why AGS kicked it down for contrast.
But too darken the mains they will hit it the other way.

What happens if you go shallower on the pavilion angles and leave head shadowing out of the equation? Is it possible to show virtually?

The JS lighting shows that its not a very practical real world indication of how the stone works.
I have ran into this with high crown asschers also. I think the high crown messes with the relationship between the reflectors and the stone that works with lower crowns differently.
Maybe Serg will know?
testingoec.jpg
 
Date: 3/27/2008 4:02:20 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/27/2008 3:29:03 AM
Author: strmrdr


Date: 3/27/2008 2:21:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
well, the difference is they can hurt me with sticks and stones
14.gif
, and you can only call me names
36.gif


Note the earlier ETAS had bigger flashes that will jump at you - why many people like older cuts, where as the other Tolkowsky round has smaller but more frequent flashes.
Now this time we have DETAS - same as before but Dynamic. The stone has been rotated 2 degrees and the flashes (or potential sources of light) are also colour coded.
I will see if Sergey can drop by to explain more, but as before you see much bigger stronger flashes, but less of them.

I am a little concerned however Storm as your new stone will loose most of theose face up flashes near the center because of head obstruction of light sources.
with a 60% lgf% head shadow issues if a fact of life, they look better at arm length than 1/2 way too your face.
There is really no way around it.

Why is head shadow such an issue..., what % of time you wear your Diamond in jewelry gets obstructed by head shadow?

A big difference between a poorly angled oec and a well cut one is that the poorly angled one can look good at 6 feet and good one at 2. Just the difference in head shadow between the IS and ASET can make a huge difference in how the image looks in some combos and how they will look in person.
Head shadow is a highly underrated component of diamond performance in fancies and a major failing of the ags SE/EC cut system by only considering 30 and 40 degrees.

A fic(long lgf%) would be better up close but you lose the large flashes and are back too small too very small ones.
Which is good for head shadow appearance but less for overall appearance (my taste)!

Can DC pro automate images with varying head shadow for a given combo?
They would be a real eye opener with fancy cuts and also prove my point.
I am really giving too much of my design secrets away in this post. :}
head shadow is present anytime your looking at a diamond(and not reflections on something and then environmental shadow is still present) or no light would be returning too your eyes.
head shadow should really be called environmental shadow as it isn''t limited too you head.
One the hand the color of ones shirt can make a difference!

I love fics and I love oec different looks both kicken!
neither is bad when well cut!
 
Date: 3/27/2008 4:04:39 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/27/2008 3:52:34 AM
Author: strmrdr
The ASET images in the table area show why AGS kicked it down for contrast.
But too darken the mains they will hit it the other way.

What happens if you go shallower on the pavilion angles and leave head shadowing out of the equation? Is it possible to show virtually?

The JS lighting shows that its not a very practical real world indication of how the stone works.
I have ran into this with high crown asschers also. I think the high crown messes with the relationship between the reflectors and the stone that works with lower crowns differently.
Maybe Serg will know?
testingoec.jpg
sure iso no head, same angles.
This is in no way representative of the real world. There is always environmental shadow.

isolightingnoenvirementalshadow.jpg
 
Here is no enviremental shadow 34.5 pavilion 38C 45T 60% lgf%

nohead345pavilion.jpg
 
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