Poll: Prenup?

[boredstiff]

Just a quick question about prenuptial agreements. What do you think about them? As an attorney, I believe strongly in knowing what the deal is before getting involved in any transaction, even one of the heart. I'm sure we all know of people who've gotten divorced even though they got married with the best of intentions.

I have talked about prenups with my girlfriend and she's OK with signing one. The terms I would suggest are basically in line with community property laws (everything earned before marriage, including subsequent gains, is separate and everything earned during marriage, except gifts and inheritances, is community property), except both parties would waive spousal support. We plan on jointly saving a significant amount of money each year, so splitting that upon separation (god forbid) would not screw either spouse over. If we did divorce, my plans for achieving financial independence would not be derailed by a judge ordering likely very unfavorable alimony payments. Does this sound fair to you?

 

[zoebartlett]

Signing a prenup has never come up in my relationship with my husband. We did ask a lawyer (family friend) to draw up a simple contract before we got engaged and before we made an offer on a condo together. It was basically a way of sorting things out on paper just in case anything happened. We never needed to pull out the contract again but I kind of liked having it tucked away, to be honest. Then again, it was very hard for me to see our separate incomes as *our* money. I didn't think it was fair for my husband to take on my school loan debt, etc. It took a lot of convincing by my husband to see that we were better off tackling things together instead of on our own. It took a while, but I did get on board and now I'm glad that his money is my money and vice versa.

I can see a couple wanting a prenup if both people (or one I suppose) are very wealthy. It might sound, I don't know, selfish (?) to some, but I can kind of see the point in having one to protect his or her assets in that case.

I will say that if we were ever to divorce, we'd try to do it as fairly and amicably as possible. Neither one of us would be looking to get more than our fair share.

Just out of curiosity, if a couple marries and has no children, do they both just walk away and divide up the household stuff evenly? Neither one is required to pay any type of spousal support, right? That seems silly if there aren't kids involved. Just wondering.

 

[elrohwen]

A prenup wasn't an issue in my marriage because neither of us had assets going into it and we are in the same career and will make a similar salary. However, if I were in a situation where one or both of us had significant assets before the marriage, I would absolutely consider signing a prenup. Nobody wants to divorce, but I don't think there's anything unromantic about planning for the possible future. I'm practical at heart.

 

[Yimmers]

I don't see a problem with it, as long as both parties seek legal advice from their own attorney. A prenup is a legal contract, so, it's well advised to find out what your rights are, what will happen in the case of a divorce, and what you could be giving up by signing a prenup. I just had a former co worker find out that by signing a prenup (based on pressure from her family), she signed away her rights to her husband's stock.

Since there are varying rules from state to state about the division of property (community property states vs non-community property/separate property), how the assets are divided upon divorce will differ.

 

[boredstiff]

Just out of curiosity, if a couple marries and has no children, do they both just walk away and divide up the household stuff evenly? Neither one is required to pay any type of spousal support, right? That seems silly if there aren't kids involved. Just wondering.

I'm not a family lawyer so this isn't intended to be legal advice. Alimony and child support are two completely different things. If kids aren't involved, courts will typically award the lesser earning spouse enough alimony to maintain the lifestyle to which they're accustomed. If there are kids, courts will award even more, assuming the lesser earning spouse has custody. You can't contract your way out of child support. When divorces get bitter, the lesser earning spouse will claim a lot of money to support their lifestyle and the higher earning spouse might have to support them for the rest of their lives (or at the very least until they remarry). That's one reason why I want to waive alimony/spousal support -- it's too much of an unknown and the lesser earning spouse already has half of the community property.

Also the rules governing the division of property differ depending on whether you live in a community property state or a separate property state.

ETA: You're right -- it is silly, but it happens all the time.

 

[panda08]

I'm also an attorney who strongly believes in making a well informed decision about anything, including marriage. However, when it comes to matters of the heart, it is not that easy to enter into an arm's length transaction.

Pre-nups don't bother me but I think they're not necessary unless: (1) there's children from a previous relationship that need protection or (2) one party is coming into the marriage with a SUBSTANTIAL amount of assets, as in like multi-millions. Otherwise, it's just a matter of sitting down before marriage and having a frank discussion about current finances and future goals.

But honestly, if both parties aren't rich and don't have children but have disparate earning capacities, I think a pre-nup can rub the lesser earning party the wrong way. Marriage is a partnership but it's not a business transaction. Moreover, women often get the short end of pre-nups and divorce. Women are often the ones who leave the work force to care for children. Women earn less than men. Women's lifestyles suffer post-divorce while men's improve. If your future wife had a career but later stayed at home with your children for 10 years and you guys divorced, do you think it's fair that she not receive any sort of spousal support, especially while she re-built her career? Your career and earning potential would have improved during those 10 years while her's suffered because she's been out of the work force.

Your plan to waive spousal support is fair only if the circumstances of both people don't change during the course of your marriage.

 

[boredstiff]

Your plan to waive spousal support is fair only if the circumstances of both people don't change during the course of your marriage.

Let's say her share of the community property is $50K for each year of marriage. After ten years, she would have $500K. Most of that is from my sweat -- working for the benefit of the community. Are you suggesting that is not enough to get her on her feet? If we did not get married, it is unlikely she would have that much saved on a no-kids career trajectory.

 

[zoebartlett]

Thanks for explaining it! I couldn't ever imagine expecting my husband to pay for me to continue the lifestyle I was leading before the divorce (hypothetically speaking). Not that we're leading any type of grand lifestyle now or anything, but it seems so greedy to do that.

 

[steph72276]

Just a quick question about prenuptial agreements. What do you think about them? As an attorney, I believe strongly in knowing what the deal is before getting involved in any transaction, even one of the heart. I'm sure we all know of people who've gotten divorced even though they got married with the best of intentions.

I have talked about prenups with my girlfriend and she's OK with signing one. The terms I would suggest are basically in line with community property laws (everything earned before marriage, including subsequent gains, is separate and everything earned during marriage, except gifts and inheritances, is community property), except both parties would waive spousal support. We plan on jointly saving a significant amount of money each year, so splitting that upon separation (god forbid) would not screw either spouse over. If we did divorce, my plans for achieving financial independence would not be derailed by a judge ordering likely very unfavorable alimony payments. Does this sound fair to you?

I think everything earned before marriage would be okay, but say for example if you were asked to move for your job and your spouse agreed, therefore sacrificing her career for yours, then what? What if you (god forbid) became sick and she had to put a hold on her career to take care of you? What if you both decide that she will stay at home with the children in the future, therefore sacrificing time in the corporate world and therefore earning potential? There are a lot of factors involved and you never know what the future holds, but I don't think I would sign that clause as is. Luckily for us, my husband was a poor college student when we met, so everything he's earned, he has done so since we've been together.

ETA: Ditto Panda, we were posting at the same time!

 

[steph72276]

Your plan to waive spousal support is fair only if the circumstances of both people don't change during the course of your marriage.

Let's say her share of the community property is $50K for each year of marriage. After ten years, she would have $500K. Most of that is from my sweat -- working for the benefit of the community. Are you suggesting that is not enough to get her on her feet? If we did not get married, it is unlikely she would have that much saved on a no-kids career trajectory.

And how is that guaranteed?

 

[boredstiff]

I think everything earned before marriage would be okay, but say for example if you were asked to move for your job and your spouse agreed, therefore sacrificing her career for yours, then what? What if you (god forbid) became sick and she had to put a hold on her career to take care of you? What if you both decide that she will stay at home with the children in the future, therefore sacrificing time in the corporate world and therefore earning potential?

So would you be more amenable to a lost profits calculation? You could have saved $X on your salary during our marriage while working then we agreed you would stay home so you lost $Y in earning potential. So here's $X+$Y, but no alimony. Would that be fair?

And how is that guaranteed?

That's just an example. But I am a fierce saver. If I were to lose my job, then I shouldn't have to pay any alimony, it would go the other way around, so it's a win-win for her.

 

[Lulie]

Is one option is missing?
*I'm a Girl and would/did ask for one* to be fair.

I have zero problems with pre/post nups. As many agreements, they can always be changed, modified & even voided

 

[boredstiff]

Is one option is missing?
*I'm a Girl and would/did ask for one* to be fair.

I have zero problems with pre/post nups. As many agreements, they can always be changed, modified & even voided

Ehhhh...you're right, but unfortunately, I cannot edit anymore...

 

[Laila619]

Is one option is missing?
*I'm a Girl and would/did ask for one* to be fair.

I have zero problems with pre/post nups. As many agreements, they can always be changed, modified & even voided

Yep, I was thinking the same thing about the missing option. It's not always the guy who asks for one. Sometimes the woman comes into the marriage with more assets.

 

[panda08]

Your plan to waive spousal support is fair only if the circumstances of both people don't change during the course of your marriage.

Let's say her share of the community property is $50K for each year of marriage. After ten years, she would have $500K. Most of that is from my sweat -- working for the benefit of the community. Are you suggesting that is not enough to get her on her feet? If we did not get married, it is unlikely she would have that much saved on a no-kids career trajectory.

It's not that it's not enough to get her on her feet. You'd still have your share of the community PLUS your increased earning potential while she'd only have her share of the community. She would have to start her career over and probably earn a lot less than she did before. She would likely have to dip into her share of the community to maintain her lifestyle while you would continue earning what you've been making and reaping the benefit of saving your portion of the community. How can you make up for the years she could have gotten promoted and earned more money while she stayed at home and raised your children? During those 10 years, you received the benefit of her labor even though she did not contribute monetarily to the marriage.

 

[April20]

This was never a consideration for us as neither one of us had significant assets. Even if we did, however, it still wouldn't be a consideration. We view marriage as a very serious committment and one that's forever; not to be taken lightly. A pre-nup to me signals already thinking about ending things before they even start. I get that for many people they make a lot of sense, they just don't for us.

 

[february2003bride]

Yes I would have considered signing a prenup if DH had asked me. I don't have a problems with prenups as long as the contract drawn is fair to both parties. It would be protecting him and myself.

 

[boredstiff]

It's not that it's not enough to get her on her feet. You'd still have your share of the community PLUS your increased earning potential while she'd only have her share of the community. She would have to start her career over and probably earn a lot less than she did before. She would likely have to dip into her share of the community to maintain her lifestyle while you would continue earning what you've been making and reaping the benefit of saving your portion of the community. How can you make up for the years she could have gotten promoted and earned more money while she stayed at home and raised your children? During those 10 years, you received the benefit of her labor even though she did not contribute monetarily to the marriage.

Well, my point is that it will likely put her in a better position than she would have been in had we not married. To me, that is more than fair. My increased earnings potential is already priced into the community property -- what I earn after divorce is irrelevant. I agree if she lost more in earning potential than she receives in her share of community property, then maybe that could be unfair, but in our situation, I think is unlikely to occur.

Like another poster said, the prenup can always be amended if an unforeseen circumstance were to arise.

ETA: By the way, I plan to step off the work treadmill after ten or so years, so if anything she would have to pay me alimony after that.

 

[shihtzulover]

I don't like the idea because it seems so cold, and almost like you expect the marriage to fail.

I don't take wedding vows lightly, and neither does my FF. I already told him that I don't ever want to get a divorce, and that he'd better be sure that this is what he wants. He responded by telling me that he doesn't even want to break off an engagement, so once he proposes, I'd better be sure that it's definitely what I want.

In the real world, I know that nothing is guaranteed. If something did go wrong, I would not want to take all of his money or his belongings.

I know it's a complicated issue, because sometimes things do get ugly during divorce, but I would just be really offended if my FF asked me to sign one - like he questioned my intentions, and like he expected things to get ugly between us.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think that what you wrote in the first paragraph outlining the contract sounds just fine. My only change would be on spousal support. I have read about too many women who were divorced by their husbands late in life. If they were stay at home moms, then I would think spousal support should be part of the contract. I personally like your contract. I think it is fair.
If someone comes into the marriage with a lot of money, I don't think the fact that one marries should be tantamount to giving them half.

Annette
Sorry, I didn't vote.

 

[Ninna]

Is one option is missing?
*I'm a Girl and would/did ask for one* to be fair.

I have zero problems with pre/post nups. As many agreements, they can always be changed, modified & even voided

Very important option IS missing!
Prenups are well received here. Supporting your parter's career for years and requesting one...why not?
They aren't bulletproof. Disproportionate ones are simply silly, she can always argue later that she signed under duress or worst, felt discouraged from seeking her own lawyer. Mix good eyes, ears and a kid: Good recipe to kiss Subsequent gains goodbye. A percentage disclosed NOW on those gains can save you a headache in my community property state lol. Good Luck

 

[lyra]

I would not sign a prenup, but that point is moot. My daughters are in their 20's and I wouldn't want them to sign prenups either, just on principle. It's like you're expecting a failure of the marriage, or are looking for an easy future out. I'm okay with keeping pre-marriage assets separate if possible, but no one really knows what the years will bring and I see unfairness in the lack of spousal support.

ETA: It may be fair in print, but it seems very cold too. Why marry someone in the first place if you really don't trust them or your relationship.

 

[stone-cold11]

Pre-nup is not a legally binding under Singapore law, so no point even if you sign one.

 

[Camille]

I would We have one daughter and wouldn't mind her signing one for many reasons: Kids are getting married later, so for professionals I think is a great idea to protect their hard earned $, OR marrying too young persuing a lucrative profession.
Lots of second marriages out there....with a prenup you don't have to pay for his 'past' bills ie his kids hospital bills, ex wife's life style, etc.
Maybe not romantic but I see prenups are better than secrets

 

[boredstiff]

Disproportionate ones are simply silly, she can always argue later that she signed under duress or worst, felt discouraged from seeking her own lawyer. Mix good eyes, ears and a kid: Good recipe to kiss Subsequent gains goodbye. A percentage disclosed NOW on those gains can save you a headache in my community property state lol. Good Luck

Actually, in my state, subsequent gains on separate property is still considered separate property. I understand this may be different in other community property states, so I am not worried about that. Full disclosure and independent counsel is important for any prenup to be enforceable IMO.

I think that what you wrote in the first paragraph outlining the contract sounds just fine. My only change would be on spousal support. I have read about too many women who were divorced by their husbands late in life. If they were stay at home moms, then I would think spousal support should be part of the contract. I personally like your contract. I think it is fair.
If someone comes into the marriage with a lot of money, I don't think the fact that one marries should be tantamount to giving them half.

Thanks Annette. The first paragraph just restates community property law in my state. The only change I propose making is to waive spousal support. At most, I would be willing to cap spousal support (time and amount) depending on kids, whether she had been out of work, length of marriage, size of community property, etc. since other posters have raised that as a possible inequity (I still disagree though).

If someone comes into the marriage with a lot of money, I don't think the fact that one marries should be tantamount to giving them half.

Separate property stays separate so the spouse would have no claim to that money.

 

[vespergirl]

I voted that I would consider signing one, but I do believe that the poll is sexist, in the assumption that the man is the one in the relationship with greater assets.

During my first marriage, I came into the marriage with a house that I bought on my own before the marriage, and a trust fund. My ex-husband was penniless and in debt. We didn't have a prenup, but I was worried about what would happen when we divorced two years later. I was lucky that ex-H was so broke that he couldn't even afford a divorce attorney, so I got everything I wanted in the divorce (basically, I got to keep all my stuff, and he just left with what he came with).

During my present marriage, we were on much more equal financial footing, even though he did have a larger salary and more savings & assets. We also knew that I would stay home and stop contributing financially to the household once our children were born. Still, my husband is not the type to ever consider a prenup, so even though he knew that he would have much more to lose in the event of a divorce, he didn't want one.

Right now one of my good friends is going through a painful divorce (no prenup) and she also earns significantly more than her soon-to-be ex-H. They did not have a prenup, but thankfully, he is not disputing most of what she is asking for. Still, I was worried that it would be an issue during their divorce.

In general, if there is a great disparity in assets, I am in favor of a prenup.

 

[stepcutgirl]

My fiancee is an attorney. I asked him what his thoughts were on one for us shortly after we got engaged. He said he didn't feel we needed one. I felt relieved to hear that. While I understand things happen and that even marriages that start out perfectly healthy turn sour and end, I would have an issue outlining and signing a contract of how we would divide and part ways. It is an emotional thing and not a business thing. Marriage IMO shouldn't start with a contract outlining how it will end, should it end.

I don't ever plan to get divorced, but most people divorced didn't ever think they would be divorced. I think what happens when it ends, should it end should be dealt with then, not when you're feeling all warm and fuzzy. If I allow myself to be completely honest right now I would say I don't want any of his money and I just want him to be happy should we part. Lets say 20 years from now I've had his children and not worked to the extent I would have had we not married and I find out he is sleeping with my best friend and has 3 different women pregnant (just a what if to show what could happen) you better bet I'm not going to want to walk away with just the house and car type thing. I realize thats not what I'm supposed to say, because it comes across like what I would want would change with my feelings. IT WOULD! But I'd hate that scenario to happen and me to walk away screwed because once upon a time I was young and in love and thought nothing bad would ever happen.

Go ahead, stone me.

 

[Allison D.]

Let's say her share of the community property is $50K for each year of marriage. After ten years, she would have $500K. Most of that is from my sweat -- working for the benefit of the community. Are you suggesting that is not enough to get her on her feet? If we did not get married, it is unlikely she would have that much saved on a no-kids career trajectory.[/quote]

Really? I'd say she's earned it through HER sweat, too. You jointly run a household, and the division of labor you're agreed to is you will work and she will do everything else at home. It's HER shopping for and preparing the food you eat, cleaning the clothes that you wear, and raising the children that you helped create. You have both agreed at that point that she will forgo an outside salary to partake in yours, so you've BOTH earned it through both of your sweat.

But eh - if you think it's that equitable to be on the non-outside salary end, perhaps *you* should volunteer for that part of it. Perhaps it will feel considerably less fair then.

 

[boredstiff]

Really? I'd say she's earned it through HER sweat, too. You jointly run a household, and the division of labor you're agreed to is you will work and she will do everything else at home. It's HER shopping for and preparing the food you eat, cleaning the clothes that you wear, and raising the children that you helped create. You have both agreed at that point that she will forgo an outside salary to partake in yours, so you've BOTH earned it through both of your sweat.

But eh - if you think it's that equitable to be on the non-outside salary end, perhaps *you* should volunteer for that part of it. Perhaps it will feel considerably less fair then.

I think you are misconstruing what I am trying to say. Since everything is community property, she would get half of what we earned during marriage. So you're right we both earned it and there is no dispute that it should be divided evenly. Also, there's been no agreement about anything. If we don't have kids, she should keep working. If there are kids, who knows, maybe I'll be in a position to stay home then. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say...

What I have an issue with is the notion that the end of a marriage creates welfare rights for the lesser earning spouse, especially if they've been put in a better position than if they continued to work as a single person. This puts the higher earning spouse at a considerable disadvantage because the court can and will do whatever it wants with respect to support. I don't want to be held hostage by this type of uncertainty.

I have a very specific goal in life -- to retire young -- that could easily be completely destroyed by a divorce (w/o prenup). I've seen too many people get divorced and get screwed over (both guys and gals). One woman I know has to pay alimony and she doesn't even have a job anymore. She's deep in debt (poor money management coupled with lots of attorney fees) with no house (they never bought one) thanks to the divorce. When she was working, she made over $350K/year. Is that fair?

 

[boredstiff]

I find out he is sleeping with my best friend and has 3 different women pregnant (just a what if to show what could happen) you better bet I'm not going to want to walk away with just the house and car type thing.

. . .

Go ahead, stone me.

No stones here. I worry about the same thing. Both spouses can be unfaithful and sometimes people change. Imagine if you were the higher earning spouse, he cheats on you and forces you to divorce him and then you're ordered to pay half your paycheck to him in alimony for 30 years. That's why I think it's better to straighten that all out in advance. Too bad you can't put punitive clauses like that in prenups (e.g., you cheat and you get nothing). Don't get me wrong, I love my girlfriend a lot and think we will beat the odds and grow old together. But really, no one knows for sure.

It is an emotional thing and not a business thing.

The problem is, without a prenup, the divorce also becomes an emotional thing, when it should be a business thing.