POLITICAL: DeVos Confirmed as Ed Secty

[ksinger]

We need to change our school system. Here's how our kids rank compared to other countries...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/06/world/pisa-global-education-rankings/

As usual, you are about bumper stickers for insanely complex issues. And just so you know, there is no school system in the sense that you and others seem to think. And the push for school choice (aka - segregation and getting my kids away from those kids) ensures that now there will be even less of anything resembling national coherence of educational "goods" and goals.

But hey, if we could do that we could aspire to a hugely high student suicide rate ala Japan, or like China not including test results from the rural areas (per your own article). When you can cherry-pick the students both for the schools and the assessments, you can look wonderful. As least as long as nobody is rude enough to call you on your BS.

Here is a nice criticism (per Wikipedia's entry on education in China) of Chinese education:

"Although Shanghai and Hong Kong regularly perform highly in international assessments, Chinese education has both native and international detractors; common areas of criticism include its rigor; its emphasis on memorization and standardized testing;[36] and the gap in quality of education between students of rural and urban areas. Jonathan Kaiman of The Guardian writes that Chinese parents and educators "see their own system as corrupt, dehumanising, pressurised and unfair"; he went on to discuss the country's college admission exam (called the gaokao), writing that "many parents consider the gruelling nine-hour test a sorting mechanism that will determine the trajectory of their children's lives."[37] In The New York Times, Helen Gao called China's educational system "cutthroat" and wrote that its positive reputation among admirers is largely built on a myth:[38]

"While China has phenomenally expanded basic education for its people, quadrupling its output of college graduates in the past decade, it has also created a system that discriminates against its less wealthy and well-connected citizens, thwarting social mobility at every step with bureaucratic and financial barriers. A huge gap in educational opportunities between students from rural areas and those from cities is one of the main culprits. Some 60 million students in rural schools are 'left-behind' children, cared for by their grandparents as their parents seek work in faraway cities. While many of their urban peers attend schools equipped with state-of-the-art facilities and well-trained teachers, rural students often huddle in decrepit school buildings and struggle to grasp advanced subjects such as English and chemistry amid a dearth of qualified instructors. 'Rural students stand virtually no chance when competing academically with their urban counterparts,' Jiang Nengjie, a friend and independent filmmaker who made a documentary on the left-behind children, told me."

In The Chronicle of Higher Education, Lara Farrar argued that the disabled are "shortchanged" in Chinese schools, with very little chance of acceptance into higher educational institutions.[39]"

Sound kinda familiar?

 

[E B]

 

[the_mother_thing]

Slightly off-topic

I realized this morning I failed to share a story I alluded to in another thread at some point with regard to my SIL, who is a very smart, well-educated, 20+ year math teacher.

A few years ago, she was talking about something that took place around the same time of her dad's 50th birthday, and was trying to figure out what year that 'thing' happened. She looked at my brother with a sincerely perplexed expression, and asked him "How old was my dad when he turned 50?"

I'll never forget my (far-less educated) brother's sarcastic but straight-faced response: "Babe, c'mon, you're a math teacher ... he was 21", which was immediately followed by several drinks being spit across the room. That poor gal ... bless her heart ... we still joke about it to this day.


Moral of the story: sometimes even highly qualified/educated people do dumb stuff; don't overlook the common sense and perspective a 'lesser' qualified/educated person can bring to the table.

 

[AnnaH]

Jenn, interesting and relevant, given what's been said here about DeVos, to see her actual contributions and the experience of former secretaries.

Ksinger, I agree that the comparisons between us and other countries is apple/oranges. Who else does so much to educate every child? However, refusing to view students as individuals is problematic. Most students choose to go straight to work from high school, yet they are required to prepare for college rather than their chosen path. Hopefully, the education pendulum will swing back to offering both college prep and vocational programs in high school.

 

[ksinger]

Jenn, interesting and relevant, given what's been said here about DeVos, to see her actual contributions and the experience of former secretaries.

Ksinger, I agree that the comparisons between us and other countries is apple/oranges. Who else does so much to educate every child? However, refusing to view students as individuals is problematic. Most students choose to go straight to work from high school, yet they are required to prepare for college rather than their chosen path. Hopefully, the education pendulum will swing back to offering both college prep and vocational programs in high school.

Most kids don't "choose" the career path of working at McDonalds, it just kind of happens to them. I would say that the college prep push comes from the community, not the other way around. Parents drive this. And the schools have responded, with lip service at the very least. What parent, even one who may know better on some level, wants to be told to her face that Johnny is probably going to be a ditch digger? None, I promise you. All you have to do is read the rants of wounded and angry parents who had some counselor point out that Johnny may want to consider vo-tech rather than college, and are up in arms about why they can't see the wonderfulness and potential of my child, how DARE they! A friend of mine dared to do something similar, about the travails of her poor dyslexic daughter (very smart kid, but used that poor pitiful me tack until her mom believed it), and how the teachers didn't see this or that and didn't see her as an individual.....and my husband pretty much unloaded on her. She got a snootful of how school actually works. Hint - it's not as personal tutors to individuals. He actually felt a bit bad later, but dang.

As for the removal of vo-tech type classes from the high schools, well, around here at least, we have obeisance to the Great God of Privatization to thank for that. Now all those type classes are offered at locations outside the schools, and only accept the (wait for it) students with the most promise (and ability to get actually get there) into their programs. So there's another level of cherry picking even in so-called non-college programs. Meaning the kids with the greatest needs are still left, concentrated at schools that are too difficult or too fast for them, and that are themselves buckling under the strain of all these high-need kids in one spot. They do actually need more, and they are not getting it. And flogging schools that are being defunded at a clip, and trying to flog teachers whose very predictable response is to leave in droves, and then holding out more privatization ala charters, is not helping. And all that said, it's also helpful to remember that we really only need so many plumbers and electricians. It used to be "not everyone can be a doctor", now it's "not everyone can be a finish carpenter."

DeVos is the death knell of true public education in this country. But she's really just a symptom, a culmination. The populace has in large part, given up on public education. They'll keep insisting they haven't, but the policies that are being put in place show differently.

 

[AGBF]

My brother's kids (now in their mid-twenties) went to the public schools in his town, which is not the wealthiest. His father-in-law was the Superintendent of Schools there for many years and tried very hard to make it a place where children who came from less well off families could also learn and benefit from the "extras" that public education can offer. After her father's retirement, my sister-in-law started to teach first grade in that school system. My brother coached his daughter's sports teams and their high school robotics team. Now, many years after the last one graduated from college, he is still the high school robotics team coach. And he is on the school board. He and his family are devoted to public education. They are also devoted to the public library. Although they are not well to do, when my sister-in-law was named teacher of the year, they (well, we) banded together to collect money to start a children's music room in the public library to honor her. Poorer towns badly need resources like this for their youth.

Deb

 

[redwood66]

My area has built 3 hybrid high schools in the past 5 years and they are flourishing and so are the students. Germany has been doing this for decades. Not all students can or should go to college and there should be something else for them.


Statement from the school:

School Name is a partnership between business and industry leaders, local school districts and local manufacturers. This high school hybrid will offer dual enrollment credits, industrial certifications, and a new route to success through applied skilled learning.

TUITION FREE - School Name is a branch campus of your high school, providing tuition free industry and business grade training for 11th and 12th grades.

 

[Matata]

Having DeVos deal a death blow to public education in this country wouldn't be a bad thing if we reinvented our education system to be more effective than what we have right now. Finland sets a good example.
http://yournewswire.com/finland-ban-compulsory-school-subjects/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0318-doyle-finnish-schools-20160318-story.html
https://fillingmymap.com/2015/04/15/11-ways-finlands-education-system-shows-us-that-less-is-more/

 

[madelise]

I haven't read this thread but wanted to put this out here:
Can everyone go hug or buy coffee for a teacher today? We've had our system, and our jobs, and what we do completely insulted. We definitely didn't decide to work in the public education sector to get rich; we do it to change little kids' lives. And we got completely shafted by this. Our kids got shafted. We're feeling quite defeated.

 

[redwood66]

Having DeVos deal a death blow to public education in this country wouldn't be a bad thing if we reinvented our education system to be more effective than what we have right now. Finland sets a good example.
http://yournewswire.com/finland-ban-compulsory-school-subjects/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0318-doyle-finnish-schools-20160318-story.html
https://fillingmymap.com/2015/04/15/11-ways-finlands-education-system-shows-us-that-less-is-more/

Thank you for these! Very interesting but I could not read the LA Times article (they want me to turn my adblocker off GRRR)

My sons both had the best time in their robotics class in HS because it was not a desk style class. They worked in small groups and had to work with each other to problem solve.

 

[the_mother_thing]

We've had our system, and our jobs, and what we do completely insulted.

Madelise - I totally understand how you/others may feel that way, trust me. I work in an industry that has been absolutely strangled by politics & regulations ... for years! It makes me feel at times like I never left Washington.

 

[AnnaH]

Go in any poor neighborhood school, and you will find highly gifted students receiving, at the very least, a decent education that will take them as far as they want to continue their education. I agree that it's those who struggle academically that challenge a school system. My point is not every high school student needs calculus. Many would better benefit from a tech class. Yet, unless a student is in special education and either academically or emotionally unable, the 4X4 curriculum is required, which includes four high level math classes. Can't speak for every state, but that's probably common.
Sure there are parents who are clueless concerning the potential of their kid, but most know their children much better than the examples offered.
Parents are the ones in charge of public education? Which parents would that be? Would like to hear more about that.

 

[AnnaH]

Madelise, you and your colleagues deserve thanks and respect. No question.

 

[chrono]

Madelise, you and your colleagues deserve thanks and respect. No question.

 

[chrono]

DF,
Been there and done that. This is the life of a student where the country is ranked as one of the top Math and Science testing:
http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Singapore/sub5_7c/entry-3772.html

Snippets:
Many children take after school classes and have lots of homework. It is partly caused by a system that rewards high grades - and these come mostly from rote learning and plenty of homework.

Over the years, many teachers from the top schools have mastered the art of identifying exam questions and hard-working (not necessarily intelligent) students benefit from it. The result is enormous pressure on the children. More and more pupils, as young as kindergarten and primary classes, are seeking help from psychiatrists for study or exam blues.

The competitive workload and exam system has resulted in Singapore students producing the highest scores in the world in Science and Mathematics. Parents play a major role pressuring - or trying to bribe - their kids to perform. The richer ones buy condos close to premium schools to meet residential qualification. Others contribute to school funds hoping to get in. Thousands of dollars are spent on private tuition, grooming classes, music lessons and holiday study camps. Some parents promise their children monetary incentives to get good grades in school or, at the lower level, a toy or a meal at the child's favourite restaurant. Some find this reward scheme a good way to motivate a student to work harder. Others condemn it as inculcating materialistic values on their young. "These kids may or may not be engineers or doctors one day, but they certainly will grow up to become materialistic citizens who won't do things without being paid," said one counsellor. Someone posted this online warning: "Parents, beware, you are in danger of raising a generation of disgruntled, unappreciative and potentially arrogant snobs."

Included in there are topics discussing student suicide, private tutoring outside of school 5 days a week starting at age 5 on top of regular school, past exam papers black market, and more.

 

[AGBF]

My sons both had the best time in their robotics class in HS because it was not a desk style class. They worked in small groups and had to work with each other to problem solve.

So glad to hear this. I am learning more about robotics and also Legos for the younger kids to start out with. My brother is always on the lookout for a young person, preferably someone with an engineering bent, to help him with his high schoolers. (He was delighted to meet the homecare nurse visiting our father because one of her sons lives in his area and studies math and engineering. My brother instantly saw an opportunity for a young volunteer to help with his robotics team!)

My brother says that he tries to tell the kids that even if they can't/don't want to be engineers that they, also, can work in the technology fields and shows them jobs in which they can work. Because he, himself, is not an engineer. But he feels the kids would really benefit by having a younger guy (or gal) with a knowledge of engineering in there with him. When the nurse with whom he was speaking asked if he was an engineer he started to laugh. It is hardly his forte!

AGBF

 

[AGBF]

Kudos to you, madelise!!!

Hugs,
Deb

 

[redwood66]

My sons both had the best time in their robotics class in HS because it was not a desk style class. They worked in small groups and had to work with each other to problem solve.

So glad to hear this. I am learning more about robotics and also Legos for the younger kids to start out with. My brother is always on the lookout for a young person, preferably someone with an engineering bent, to help him with his high schoolers. (He was delighted to meet the homecare nurse visiting our father because one of her sons lives in his area and studies math and engineering. My brother instantly saw an opportunity for a young volunteer to help with his robotics team!)

My brother says that he tries to tell the kids that even if they can't/don't want to be engineers that they, also, can work in the technology fields and shows them jobs in which they can work. Because he, himself, is not an engineer. But he feels the kids would really benefit by having a younger guy (or gal) with a knowledge of engineering in there with him. When the nurse with whom he was speaking asked if he was an engineer he started to laugh. It is hardly his forte!

AGBF

Excellent! I hope your dad is doing well btw.

It was actually my sons' robotics teacher that pushed them toward Cryptology in the navy (he was also a cryptologist in the navy). The one that is getting out this summer will be applying to our top engineering school and he is very excited.

 

[ksinger]

I haven't read this thread but wanted to put this out here:
Can everyone go hug or buy coffee for a teacher today? We've had our system, and our jobs, and what we do completely insulted. We definitely didn't decide to work in the public education sector to get rich; we do it to change little kids' lives. And we got completely shafted by this. Our kids got shafted. We're feeling quite defeated.

Just remember, you have to jump off before they suck the life completely out of you. This will be done by the constant imploring to do more with less, and (for that ONE more thing, that is really the umpteenth thing, that straw to break your back) "Do it for the kids!" Sound familiar?

Only you know when to cut and run, but do NOT, DO NOT let it destroy your health. It will, eventually, no matter how strong you are, especially in this environment.

 

[Dancing Fire]

No matter the system teachers can't teach if the student don't go to class. Why are Asians among the most educated (I am not one of them ) compared to other minority group? b/c we have different family values, plus most Asian kids grew up in a home with two parents. All of our nieces and nephews on both side of the family have college degrees and are all employed except one who is attending dentistry school at Columbia University. Do you think they all grew up in affluent neighborhoods? NO!, b/c they are willing to learn.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Go in any poor neighborhood school, and you will find highly gifted students receiving, at the very least, a decent education that will take them as far as they want to continue their education. I agree that it's those who struggle academically that challenge a school system. My point is not every high school student needs calculus. Many would better benefit from a tech class. Yet, unless a student is in special education and either academically or emotionally unable, the 4X4 curriculum is required, which includes four high level math classes. Can't speak for every state, but that's probably common.
Sure there are parents who are clueless concerning the potential of their kid, but most know their children much better than the examples offered.
Parents are the ones in charge of public education? Which parents would that be? Would like to hear more about that.

Exactly, I don't understand why some people kept on blaming the system, if the kids aren't willing to learn they are not gonna graduate from any level of education no matter what school they attended.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Exactly, I don't understand why some people kept on blaming the system, if the kids aren't willing to learn they are not gonna graduate from any level of education no matter what school they attended.

I was HIGHLY motivated & willing to learn in school ... they had big paddles hanging in most classrooms.

But you're right DF - the 'ol "lead a horse to water but can't make it drink".

 

[Dancing Fire]

Exactly, I don't understand why some people kept on blaming the system, if the kids aren't willing to learn they are not gonna graduate from any level of education no matter what school they attended.

I was HIGHLY motivated & willing to learn in school ... they had big paddles hanging in most classrooms.

But you're right DF - the 'ol "lead a horse to water but can't make it drink".

Asian parents have big paddles at home...OUCH!!..

 

[chrono]

Exactly, I don't understand why some people kept on blaming the system, if the kids aren't willing to learn they are not gonna graduate from any level of education no matter what school they attended.

I was HIGHLY motivated & willing to learn in school ... they had big paddles hanging in most classrooms.

But you're right DF - the 'ol "lead a horse to water but can't make it drink".

Asian parents have big paddles at home...OUCH!!..

And some think nothing of disowning their child and throwing them out of the house forever.

 

[Missy]

I haven't read this thread but wanted to put this out here:
Can everyone go hug or buy coffee for a teacher today? We've had our system, and our jobs, and what we do completely insulted. We definitely didn't decide to work in the public education sector to get rich; we do it to change little kids' lives. And we got completely shafted by this. Our kids got shafted. We're feeling quite defeated.

Just remember, you have to jump off before they suck the life completely out of you. This will be done by the constant imploring to do more with less, and (for that ONE more thing, that is really the umpteenth thing, that straw to break your back) "Do it for the kids!" Sound familiar?

Only you know when to cut and run, but do NOT, DO NOT let it destroy your health. It will, eventually, no matter how strong you are, especially in this environment.

Madelise sending big ((((HUGS)))) your way and thank you for doing what you do each and every day and giving part of yourself to each child to make this world a better and kinder and stronger place for everyone. And I agree with Karen's (always) wise advice. Don't let it eat you alive and take care of yourself first so you can continue making a difference for the better. (((Hugs))).

 

[Calliecake]

I haven't read this thread but wanted to put this out here:
Can everyone go hug or buy coffee for a teacher today? We've had our system, and our jobs, and what we do completely insulted. We definitely didn't decide to work in the public education sector to get rich; we do it to change little kids' lives. And we got completely shafted by this. Our kids got shafted. We're feeling quite defeated.

Madelise, I am sorry commenting so late. Thank you so much for all you do. A great teacher can make such a difference in a child's life. One of my nieces struggled in 2nd grade but loved computers. I had several conversations with her teacher. Her teacher told me which computer games to get to help her with her math and reading skills. As my niece got better she would call me and recommend others to keep her challenged. Her teacher had just started teaching and was wonderful. I will drop off a couple boxes of chocolates to the school my niece and nephew attended next week.

 

[ruby59]

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/10/protesters-block-education-secretary-betsy-devos-entry-dc-school/21711627/


Have we become a world of bullies where intimidation rules.

Will everyone on Trump's team need bodyguards to go about their duties.