Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - thanks!!

[RobertW]

Hi all

I am new to this and am only a little aware of how to interpret idealscope and H&A which I have gleaned from many hours reading this forum. I have done my homework, but am a mere novice. I could really do with some help from kind people at PriceScope.

I would really be grateful if someone can give me an idea of the performance of the diamond I am super keen on. I have attached the idealscope and H&A below.

Any thoughts would be great. It looks good to me, but I think I see light leakage and can't tell whether this will ruin the beauty of the diamond.

Thanks so much in advance!
Robert

 

[babyjyo]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Maybe you can try looking it yourself and try to interprete it.

First, yes, in IDEAL scope, white means leakage. You may want look at the reference chart of the IDEAL Images to know whats IDEAL.

Second, for the H&A scope, you can start looking at the symmetry. For instance, we look at the symmetry. Are the hearts symmetrical? Is there a small clear gap between the hearts and triangles? Are the triangles symmetric and equal in length?

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

The IS image is showing a considerable amount of leakage and the infamous "ring of death". I would pass.

 

[RobertW]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Thank you Babyjyo. I have done some research already - I have my interpretation, which is based on the reference charts and it seems to lie between very good and good. But, I don't really know what that means in real life and I cannot see it very well. Is excellent like chasing something I will not likely find?

The H&A looks symmetrical to me. It looks awesome to me, in fact, but I am a newbie and have poor vision. That was why I was hoping someone could let me know their thoughts.

Just to let you know, I am handicapped: I am profoundly deaf and only partially sighted. Reading this sight and the online community is a godsend for me. My girlfriend has no disabilities so will know a great stone from a clanger, but I had wanted to make this a surprise for her, so did not wish to involve her.

Plus typing takes a really long time as I have some physical limitations, so I thank you for your input, but please bear this in mind for why I am not lengthy in responses and did not express my views in full from the outset. Also, I didn't want my thoughts to impede any response.

Maybe you can try looking it yourself and try to interprete it.

First, yes, in IDEAL scope, white means leakage. You may want look at the reference chart of the IDEAL Images to know whats IDEAL.

Second, for the H&A scope, you can start looking at the symmetry. For instance, we look at the symmetry. Are the hearts symmetrical? Is there a small clear gap between the hearts and triangles? Are the triangles symmetric and equal in length?

 

[RobertW]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

The IS image is showing a considerable amount of leakage and the infamous "ring of death". I would pass.

Thank you so much.

Please can you let me know how you knew this? Is it the light leakage in a circular shape which shows as a paler area on the diamond?

Of course i meant site, not sight in the prior post. I am grateful for this site!

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Thank you Babyjyo. I have done some research already - I have my interpretation, which is based on the reference charts and it seems to lie between very good and good. But, I don't really know what that means in real life and I cannot see it very well. Is excellent like chasing something I will not likely find?

The H&A looks symmetrical to me. It looks awesome to me, in fact, but I am a newbie and have poor vision. That was why I was hoping someone could let me know their thoughts.

Just to let you know, I am handicapped: I am profoundly deaf and only partially sighted. Reading this sight and the online community is a godsend for me. My girlfriend has no disabilities so will know a great stone from a clanger, but I had wanted to make this a surprise for her, so did not wish to involve her.

Plus typing takes a really long time as I have some physical limitations, so I thank you for your input, but please bear this in mind for why I am not lengthy in responses and did not express my views in full from the outset. Also, I didn't want my thoughts to impede any response.

Robert, you are definitely in good hands here and I can attest that your hard-work will pay off in a beautiful stone. Please see below for some links to help assess IS images as well as an article on the "ring of death". Best of luck and ask as many questions as you need to. Many PS'rs enjoy hunting for diamonds, so I would suggest starting a new thread with your specs and budget so we can point you to some excellent stones. Best of luck!

http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_reference_chart.asp

http://goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/GIAExAGSIdeal/

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Additionally, I only recommend looking at GIA graded stones. Run any potential contenders through the HCA calculator: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca.. Reject stones that score greater than 2.0 and request IS images for stones that score less than 2.0.

 

[2023]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Hi train error, the link you posted on the 'ring of death' from good old gold actually concluded all human eyes found the stone with the 'ring of death' brighter and more fiery, despite all the computer tools they used. They even say possibly a bit of leakage was even adding to the brightness. So I'm not sure if that was the link you were intending to post.

There seems to be some stones posted lately with light leakage that show the ring of death in AGS0 with parameters that match the HCA (posters concluded it would not be noticeable), and also recently one that was an AGS0 but should really be an AGS3 (not match HCA) that also had the 'ring of death'.

AGS is supposed to analyse stones on light performance.

Robert your stone does appear to have a ring of darkness in the photo, the one below the hearts image (though that's not a natural photo correct?)...

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Hi train error, the link you posted on the 'ring of death' from good old gold actually concluded all human eyes found the stone with the 'ring of death' brighter and more fiery, despite all the computer tools they used. They even say possibly a bit of leakage was even adding to the brightness. So I'm not sure if that was the link you were intending to post.

There seems to be some stones posted lately with light leakage that show the ring of death in AGS0 with parameters that match the HCA, and also recently one that was an AGS0 but should really be an AGS3 (not match HCA) that also had the 'ring of death'.

AGS is supposed to analyse stones on light performance.

2023, maybe you missed this part: "While that GIA with the ring of death shows better optics than a painted girdle ideal, it still would not make my signature line because each of our diamonds must not exhibit visible leakage under the table."

There is no debate that no ring of death is better than ring of death.

ETA: Keep in mind that the comments of brightness and fire are comparing a ring of death diamond against an ideal cut diamond with painted girdles.

 

[2023]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

I don't think he liked either of the stones in the end.

I understand what you are saying, but with regards to some of the AGS0 stones popping up with leakage, I agree significant leakage you would conclude is bad, simplistically fish eye, shallow pav, dark centre, steep pav, but some posters have been saying that a bit of leakage may happen and it won't affect the overall stones appearance. At least the last couple of examples I've seen.

Am only referring to other posts not my opinion. it's confusing me all these leakage variants.

Yup the painted girdle thing was interesting as it showed perfect IS images and perfect computer scores though the diamond had painted girdles. The only conclusion I could think was no matter how many tools and machines you use, the eyes see more... Also with the paintd girdles, GIA would not grade that excellent exactly because of the fact it had painted girdles.

I didn't realize AGS gave ideal grades to stones with painted girdles. I presume if they do it must say so on the report. Because the writer did say the stone with painted girdles was an AGS ideal.

 

[Laila619]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Hi Robert!

Welcome to PS. You're in great hands here. Like others mentioned, the paler ring in the middle of the stone means the stone is leaking light there. It's not horrible, but we can help you find something without that leakage.

 

[2023]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Just read back through some threads on painted girdles. GIA will grade a diamond VG instead of Excellent because of the painted girdles, but AGS can still grade the stone ideal. A helium report can provide the details of painted girdles as it won't be on the AGS cert. There seems to be a range of varying girdle painting too.

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

I don't think he liked either of the stones in the end.

I understand what you are saying, but with regards to some of the AGS0 stones popping up with leakage, I agree significant leakage you would conclude is bad, simplistically fish eye, shallow pav, dark centre, steep pav, but some posters have been saying that a bit of leakage may happen and it won't affect the overall stones appearance. At least the last couple of examples I've seen.

Am only referring to other posts not my opinion. it's confusing me all these leakage variants.

Yup the painted girdle thing was interesting as it showed perfect IS images and perfect computer scores though the diamond had painted girdles. The only conclusion I could think was no matter how many tools and machines you use, the eyes see more... Also with the paintd girdles, GIA would not grade that excellent exactly because of the fact it had painted girdles.

I didn't realize AGS gave ideal grades to stones with painted girdles. I presume if they do it must say so on the report. Because the writer did say the stone with painted girdles was an AGS ideal.

Those IS images are not perfect. Do you see the painted girdles in the IS image? They are clearly visible.

 

[TRIALnERROR]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Just read back through some threads on painted girdles. GIA will grade a diamond VG instead of Excellent because of the painted girdles, but AGS can still grade the stone ideal. A helium report can provide the details of painted girdles as it won't be on the AGS cert. There seems to be a range of varying girdle painting too.

GIA will allow painting or digging if it is minimal and doesn''t impact face up optics. That would certainly not be the case in the GOG article, but painting will not automatically result in VG.

 

[Christina...]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Just read back through some threads on painted girdles. GIA will grade a diamond VG instead of Excellent because of the painted girdles, but AGS can still grade the stone ideal. A helium report can provide the details of painted girdles as it won't be on the AGS cert. There seems to be a range of varying girdle painting too.

GIA will allow painting or digging if it is minimal and doesn''t impact face up optics. That would certainly not be the case in the GOG article, but painting will not automatically result in VG.

Thanks trialnerror. I was going to mention this too. I believe if GIA knocks the cut grade due to painting or digging it will be listed on the report.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

this is NOT a H&A stone.

 

[2023]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Sorry perfect was the incorrect choice of words. It also did not have perfect computer results, the computer results were better in the AGS0 stone and the IS image did not show as much leaking in the AGS0 stone versus the GIA stone.

However, as you say, if you look at the contrast (by white light) on the edges, there is none, is that what always indicates painted girdles???

I understood the authors point to be that "many technologies cannot distinguish the feature of painted and dug out girdles except for the human eyes" and that Human eyes trump. Which I know is a redundant point on a online forum. But there have been a few examples of light leakage, in AGS0 stones and the majority of posters say it won't be noticeable to the human eye. That's all.

I understand that and realize there are varying degrees of it painted girdles and Christinas explanation was very clear, thanks for that Christina! I should have changed will to can as I did also read in that same post of helium reports that there are 'degrees' thank you for helping me understand more and clarifying for me more about painted girdles.

 

[0-0-0]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

However, as you say, if you look at the contrast (by white light) on the edges, there is none, is that what always indicates painted girdles???

In IS images, a stone with minimal painting shows bigger white/pink "M"s at the arrow tips and smaller white/pink "M"s between the arrow tips along the stone's perimeter.


In ASET images, the "M"s are green.


For more details: http://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds

Sorry for the threadjack OP. For good examples of what great IS and H&A images should look like, check out some of the Crafted By Infinity stones such as this one: http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=546

 

[RobertW]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Wow - thanks for all the helpful responses!

Based on the comments, I should have mentioned a few key points, but didn't realize this at the time I posted:
-This diamond is GIA certified
-Its cut grade is excellent.
-Polish and symmetry are both excellent too.
-So this makes it ex/ex/ex, which you would think would be a great stone.
-However, it only scores 3.8 on the HCA.
-And as trialNerror let me know it has a ring of death.
-It has not been sold as H&A, so thanks for mentioning it is not H&A.

(TBH, I thought I could see great H&A, and thought I was on to a winner, but the ring of death seems to be a no go.)

Does any of this information change anyone's views?

I will have to read all the details on the links to have anything worthy to add. Thanking you all so much for your help.

Robert

 

[RobertW]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Thank you Laila!

I am keen to find something without leakage, but I guess I was wondering, if something was to give, would this be acceptable?

I guess that light performance is key, so if this is a pass, I am listening to the wise people of Pricescope

Thanks for the help. I will be replying to everyone else and asking questions over the course of the day.

Robert

Hi Robert!

Welcome to PS. You're in great hands here. Like others mentioned, the paler ring in the middle of the stone means the stone is leaking light there. It's not horrible, but we can help you find something without that leakage.

 

[Christina...]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

GIAs cut grade for EX stones is too broad in many PSers opinions. This, and because they do not grade the stones light performance, is why you need additional photos and information, which you did! AGS0 has a much more narrow range that they will include and include an assessment of the stones light performance. Because you are paying a premium for a GIA EX EX EX, it makes sense to get the best one possible, and IMO, you can find one better than this. I think that now that you know there is leakage under the table, you will always look for it, regardless of whether or not you will ever be able to visual determine it's presence IRL.

There are lots of threads about the HCA and it's uses and limitations. The HCA was designed to help online shoppers weed through a very large inventory of stones and create a short list. It was not designed to make stone selections. The idealscope is much better at determining a stones performance. There are AGS0 stones that score poorly on the HCA but have beautiful idealscope and ASET imaging. There will be beautiful GIA stones that score over two and will be passed over, thats the nature of the beast and the price we pay to have such a helpful tool.

 

[tyty333]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

If something has to give it should not be cut. Drop the color and clarity first. Can you post a link to this
Stone so we can see the angles/color /clarity? Give us your budget and we can make some suggestions.
We're pretty good at finding stones to fit budgets. I think there is probably a better stone for you out there.
Make sure you have good angles (reduce light loss) before you even worry about H&A.

 

[2023]

Re: Please help me understand this idealscope and H&A - than

Thanks thmbok re painted girdles