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Patriot Act

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movie zombie

movie zombie

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''Bush signed the bill with fanfare at a White House ceremony March 9, calling it ''''a piece of legislation that''s vital to win the war on terror and to protect the American people." But after the reporters and guests had left, the White House quietly issued a ''''signing statement," an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law.


In the statement, Bush said that he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law''s requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would ''''impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive''s constitutional duties." ''


http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/03/24/bush_shuns_patriot_act_requirement/


movie zombie



 
Date: 3/24/2006 11:02:48 PM
Author:movie zombie
But after the reporters and guests had left, the White House quietly issued a 'signing statement,' an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law.

In the statement, Bush said that he did not consider himself bound to tell Congress how the Patriot Act powers were being used and that, despite the law's requirements, he could withhold the information if he decided that disclosure would 'impair foreign relations, national security, the deliberative process of the executive, or the performance of the executive's constitutional duties.
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This made me want to click on the yellow, "Report Abuse!" button Leonid and Irina have provided at the bottom of every posting! It would do about as much good as pulling the handle on a fire alarm, however. Welcome to fascism, American style.



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I feel like that would normally end up as the understanding under the table, but it needs to remain formally inacceptable...once it gets in the open like this and become legally acceptable its just snowballs.
 
give an inch and they take a mile.
liberty is in jeopardy anytime congress is in session these days.

The scary thing is that it just makes legal what they have been doing for years.
 
If you are innocent, you have nothing to fear.

If the Patriot Act enables us to foil a terrorist plot then it will be worthwhile.

It''s not a fair fight. We beat the British and gained our independence by not fighting fairly. Maybe we need to fight dirty again.
 
Date: 3/25/2006 12:45:14 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
If you are innocent, you have nothing to fear.


If the Patriot Act enables us to foil a terrorist plot then it will be worthwhile.


It''s not a fair fight. We beat the British and gained our independence by not fighting fairly. Maybe we need to fight dirty again.
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Tell that to our citizens who have been negatively impacted by the Patriot Act. Does anyone really feel safer now that it''s passed? And who are we "fighting dirty" against? Our own citizens? People who have been racially profiled?
 
The meth bust error scenario happens often, and is regrettable. It has nothing to do with the patriot act.

The paying of the CC bill, if true, is highly suspect I admit. However, many people move large $ amounts without any such intervention. Don''t believe everything you read either. You can find all kinds of sites that say that Bush was responsible for the 9-11 attacks, the Jews did it, the Holocaust never occured, and we never landed on the moon. Maybe you believe all that too.

I am sorry that I couldn''t find a site stating that thousands of people make larger CC payments than usual with no difficulty whatsoever, which I am sure is the case.

We need to fight dirty against "our own citizens" who are making phone calls to known terrorists, or vice versa which is what the Patriot Act allows for. It''s not gonna allow the gov''t to listen in to you calling your Aunt and bitching out the gov''t. They really aren''t interested in that.
 
Date: 3/25/2006 7:11:19 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
It's not gonna allow the gov't to listen in to you calling your Aunt and bitching out the gov't.
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Of course it will! They probably have tons of ludicrous material to sift through, making it even harder to find out where there is a real problem because they are so busy casting the widest possible net so as to get as much information as they can on the non-terrorist citizenry. I bet that the real reason for all the spying is just to collect dirt on political dissenters and opponents...as it was back in the days of the Nixon White House. I am glad that when my husband and I have a phone call with my sister-in-law in Israel (as we do every Saturday) we sometimes speak four languages in one phone call. If they want to know how my daughter is doing in school, let them work for it!!!

I am OUTRAGED by this intrusion into my phone calls as I am by the intrusion into my reading material (the right under the Patriot Act to grab my library records). I am just glad I am neither in psychotherapy nor practicing it at the moment! I would not turn over any records on psychotherapy clients without telling them as the "Patriot Act" (from here on in known as the "Rat Fink Act") requires me to do. No effing way. NO WAY. I'd have the ACLU on the phone before the ink was dry on their effing papers. Let them take me to jail. It wouldn't be Guantanamo and I'd have plenty of allies making the government's path hell before I'd give them anything. My clients are sacred!


Deb
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«they are so busy casting the widest possible net so as to get as much information as they can on the non-terrorist citizenry.»

And this you know how? Bush says he doesn''t have to tell Congress what he is doing, but you seem to have some omniscient divine providence into what is going on! And I''m sure if they were listening to you, 4 languages wouldn''t be a problem. And unless you are conversing with known terrorists you aren''t on their radar. Why are you so paranoid?

The terrorists need to succeed only once. We have to be successful all the time.
 
Date: 3/25/2006 9:21:45 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
Why are you so paranoid?
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Experience.


34.gif
 
Date: 3/25/2006 7:11:19 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
The meth bust error scenario happens often, and is regrettable. It has nothing to do with the patriot act.

The paying of the CC bill, if true, is highly suspect I admit. However, many people move large $ amounts without any such intervention. Don''t believe everything you read either. You can find all kinds of sites that say that Bush was responsible for the 9-11 attacks, the Jews did it, the Holocaust never occured, and we never landed on the moon. Maybe you believe all that too.

I am sorry that I couldn''t find a site stating that thousands of people make larger CC payments than usual with no difficulty whatsoever, which I am sure is the case.

We need to fight dirty against ''our own citizens'' who are making phone calls to known terrorists, or vice versa which is what the Patriot Act allows for. It''s not gonna allow the gov''t to listen in to you calling your Aunt and bitching out the gov''t. They really aren''t interested in that.
Click to expand...
Mr Majestyk, i hope you take your own advice when you''re reading whatever it is you read.

movie zombie
 
"Mr Majestyk, i hope you take your own advice when you''re reading whatever it is you read." That''s a constructive comment.

I do, especially on PS. And I try to formulate my views without searching out some uncredible website.

Suppose the FBI had pegged Mohammed Attah as a known terrorist, which wouldn''t have been that difficult. In fact I think he was indeed known to some part of our gov''t. Suppose we were tapping Zacarias Moussaoui''s phone and he called Attah in Germany saying, "I''m taking the flying lessons and I am ready to go."

This might have led to a foiling of the 9-11 plot. Clearly he was involved, why else would he have been seeking lessons on how to fly at a MN flight school. He had known Al Qaeda connections, and admits it proudly.

I would rather have seen the 9-11 plot foiled at the expense of Zach''s civil rights.

Maybe there was some disaster averted when the Buffalo NY cell was taken out. We don''t advertise these, and rightly so. There IS such a thing as national security.

I acknowlege there are issues with the gov''t. The JFK assassination IMHO was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the gov''t. There is much evidence to that effect. I acknowledge that there are many innnocent people on death row, many of them black because they could not buy a good defense like OJ did. I think the income tax is unfairly weighted upon the middle class to the benefit of the wealthy......and I am prepared to offer suggestions as to how these issued could be addressed.

But I am distressed by the liberals here who start threads complaining about some inequity or policy without proposing any alternatives.
 
thank you for verifying that you practice what you preach [don''t believe everything you read] and were not merely preaching.

movie zombie
 
I don''t ascribe to any political agenda across the board. I try to evaluate and make my own decisions, sometimes left of center, sometimes right of center.

I am very concerned with the unfortunate lack of real statesmanship in our gov''t, and I think the general trend is not good with the increase in deficit spending, balance of trade deficit growing, unrest in Iran as well as continuing trouble in Afghanistan as well as Iraq. The condition of the economy as evidenced by the auto industry is very disturbing as well.

I am not afraid to change my mind or admit I was wrong. I supported the incursion into Iraq thinking we would be welcomed as liberators, as we were when we freed France from Hitler. I was wrong. I think the gov''t miscalculated as well. It seems just like another Vietnam, or worse.
 
Date: 3/26/2006 10:43:03 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
I don''t ascribe to any political agenda across the board. I try to evaluate and make my own decisions, sometimes left of center, sometimes right of center.

I am very concerned with the unfortunate lack of real statesmanship in our gov''t, and I think the general trend is not good with the increase in deficit spending, balance of trade deficit growing, unrest in Iran as well as continuing trouble in Afghanistan as well as Iraq. The condition of the economy as evidenced by the auto industry is very disturbing as well.

I am not afraid to change my mind or admit I was wrong. I supported the incursion into Iraq thinking we would be welcomed as liberators, as we were when we freed France from Hitler. I was wrong. I think the gov''t miscalculated as well. It seems just like another Vietnam, or worse.
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while i did not support the incursion into iraq as my reading and research indicated we would not be welcomed as liberators and that civil war would ensue, i agree with your other concerns/assessments.

unfortunately, the ''or worse'' is yet to come in that country and/or region. a game has been set into motion and its not now possible to say ''stop, we made a mistake, we take it all back''.

however, back to the patriot act: how does one make sure that this president and any other follows the law when said president says he isn''t bound by the law, hasn''t followed the law, and isn''t going to follow the law if he decides that disclosure would be an impairment? where are the checks and balances? where is the rule of order that we are all supposed to adhere to? precedent is being set and a president that does not abide by the law is a very very scary thing.
 
Majestyk, if I actually heard about some cases in which the Patriot Act actually HELPED to foil terrorists instead of just eroding away our civil liberties, maybe I wouldn't be so against it.

But all I read about, hear about, are innocent people being deported, interrogated, their privacy violated...and for what?

Your line about 'if you are innocent, you have nothing to fear' is truly LAUGHABLE. (MZ, your link about that is freakin me out.)
 
I think there has been meaningful intel gathered through the Patriot Act. But I don''t think it will be too widely advertised. If they truly intercept messages between a known terrorist inside or outside the country and another person they might get valuable info.

Zacarias Moussaoui admits he was planning to fly a plane into the White House. He admits being in contact with Al Qaeda overseas. The Patriot Act may have enabled us to learn of this.

But I don''t think the defense can claim that he deserves the death penalty because had he told the truth we would have foiled 9-11. I think we would have found a way to mess up on that too. Moussaoui is trying to become a martyr by getting the death penalty. He was willing to die in a plane crash, right? Just give him life in prison in the general population. They''ll take care of him and he won''t get martyr status.

I find some of the paranoia here laughable. You seize on some website credible or otherwise, and get all wound up. So laugh at me, I don''t care.
 
I find complete and blind faith in such a secretive administration that doesn''t care about constitutional rights laughable as well
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the FBI knew about Mr. Zacarias Moussaoui before the Patriot Act and even before 9/11 but failed to act upon it....this has been substantiated by FBI testimony at his trial. the mechanisms to get information and protect we the people have always been there. as in all things, it is the failure of the people involved that created the problem: sins of ommission and sins of commission. in the Moussaoui case it is a sin of ommission in not doing the job yet HAVING THE TOOLS AND HAVING THE INFORMATION TO DO SO. in the case of the Patriot Act, we the people are asked to trust an administration that is more secretive than any before it and a president that says he is above the law and that he has and will continue to spy on us. the waste of taxpayer dollars and valuable time investigating and infiltrating the Quakers speaks for itself.

movie zombie
 
Date: 3/27/2006 9:22:09 PM
Author: indecisive
I find complete and blind faith in such a secretive administration that doesn''t care about constitutional rights laughable as well
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I was in college during the Senate Watergate hearings. I got myself down to the District and stood in the back of the hearing room for hours. (There was no seating for spectators.) The (then) President (Nixon) really ordered and/or condoned some unbelievable things: illegal, domestic spying against the opposite political party for one! (...and it was for political gain. He was gathering information on all his political enenmies.) He didn''t even bother trying to claim the Democratic Party HQ was actually a terrorist cell. He would if it were happening today, however.


34.gif
 
Who has blind faith in the administration? I never stated that. Don''t read into what I am saying. I have said many times that mistakes are made and continue to be made by the Bush admin, as has happened in all previous admins, and always will, given the uncertainties of the world.

And I think the admin cares very much about constitutional rights, in general. The right to engage in terrorist plotting excluded.

Villify Nixon. That''s easy. Everyone does it. Yes, he was paranoid. He''d fit right in with some of you folks. He also had the guts to do the right thing and get us out of Vietnam. It was the adulterous Kennedy and power monger Johnson who got us into that mess. They were democrats, so they''re sacred?
 
Vietnam predates the kennedy's......and read a bit re kissinger and nixon re vietnam. richard hughes has posted many good resources for research.

eta: re, "And I think the admin cares very much about constitutional rights, in general." actions speak louder than words in which case i don't see their committment to the constitution or the law, in general.

movie zombie
 
Date: 3/28/2006 10:05:23 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
Villify Nixon. That''s easy. Everyone does it.
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Well, not everyone does. Only people with sense. Have you never wondered whether there was a reason everyone was picking on him?



34.gif
 
Mr Majestyk, i hope you take your own advice when you're reading whatever it is you read." That's a constructive comment.

I do, especially on PS. And I try to formulate my views without searching out some uncredible website.

Suppose the FBI had pegged Mohammed Attah as a known terrorist, which wouldn't have been that difficult. In fact I think he was indeed known to some part of our gov't. Suppose we were tapping Zacarias Moussaoui's phone and he called Attah in Germany saying, "I'm taking the flying lessons and I am ready to go."

This might have led to a foiling of the 9-11 plot. Clearly he was involved, why else would he have been seeking lessons on how to fly at a MN flight school. He had known Al Qaeda connections, and admits it proudly.

I would rather have seen the 9-11 plot foiled at the expense of Zach's civil rights.

Maybe there was some disaster averted when the Buffalo NY cell was taken out. We don't advertise these, and rightly so. There IS such a thing as national security.

I acknowlege there are issues with the gov't. The JFK assassination IMHO was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the gov't. There is much evidence to that effect. I acknowledge that there are many innnocent people on death row, many of them black because they could not buy a good defense like OJ did. I think the income tax is unfairly weighted upon the middle class to the benefit of the wealthy......and I am prepared to offer suggestions as to how these issued could be addressed.

But I am distressed by the liberals here who start threads complaining about some inequity or policy without proposing any alternatives.





as a response, I suggest you start one that praises things you like in politics
26.gif
YOu're entitled to some snarky threads too.


You made an interesting statement about civil rights and 9/11. While I don't think we are at that point yet, far from it, there is a point where I would take the terrorist attack if it meant that our nation was a free one (i.e. say the goverment started large scale arrest and torture of civilians). Otherwise the values you fight for become meaningless, life becomes meaningless. I think on some level it might come down to how one values life/order vs ideals. it's a tough call.
 
You made an interesting statement about civil rights and 9/11. While I don''t think we are at that point yet, far from it, there is a point where I would take the terrorist attack if it meant that our nation was a free one (i.e. say the goverment started large scale arrest and torture of civilians). Otherwise the values you fight for become meaningless, life becomes meaningless. I think on some level it might come down to how one values life/order vs ideals. it''s a tough call.
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it is too late once it gets to that level.

movie zombie
 
and that''s the problem...it is a slippery slope. I was offering an example for when I would trade the 9/11 tradgedy for a certain level of political freedom...

The question really is where to draw the line.
 
Date: 3/25/2006 7:11:19 PM
Author: Mr Majestyk
The meth bust error scenario happens often, and is regrettable. It has nothing to do with the patriot act.


The paying of the CC bill, if true, is highly suspect I admit. However, many people move large $ amounts without any such intervention. Don''t believe everything you read either. You can find all kinds of sites that say that Bush was responsible for the 9-11 attacks, the Jews did it, the Holocaust never occured, and we never landed on the moon. Maybe you believe all that too.


I am sorry that I couldn''t find a site stating that thousands of people make larger CC payments than usual with no difficulty whatsoever, which I am sure is the case.


We need to fight dirty against ''our own citizens'' who are making phone calls to known terrorists, or vice versa which is what the Patriot Act allows for. It''s not gonna allow the gov''t to listen in to you calling your Aunt and bitching out the gov''t. They really aren''t interested in that.
Click to expand...

Actually, the Patriot Act does have provisions that allow banks to freeze accounts when large sums of money are moved (I believe the limit is $10k). Also, the government isn''t going to listen to calls if you''re white and not a member of a "targeted group". The problem is that in order to figure out which citizens are "making phone calls to known terrorists" the government is watching a larger group. If someone is Muslim, middle eastern, or part of various groups (pacifists, anti-war groups etc) then the rules are thrown out the window. Even a college student who requested a book about Communism via Inter-Library Loan for a class assignment was paid a little visit. I don''t see how that keeps us free from terrorism.
 
The 10k money movement trace has been in effect for decades. It''s CASH money movement only. It''s no big deal. In my business, it''s not unusual. You have to fill out a form at the bank as to where the money source is. It''s got little to do with terrorists & more to do with drug trafficing - and - more importantly money laundering & the IRS.

Most of the Patriot Act is nothing new.
 
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