Parents

[CJ2008]

I'm not sure how to handle this situation that has developed between my parents...

They're both in their 70s, both of them fairly healthy (able to take care of themselves, etc.) My mom and dad have always been very different people - my mom, extremely energetic (even to this day) and outgoing, loves social gatherings, traveling, etc. My father, the total opposite - could sit in front of the TV for hours, is quiet, and could care less about social gatherings or traveling.

Ever since my father retired and is home all day, their differences are emphasized 10 fold. My mother has become increasingly frustrated with him and losing more patience every day. She says she hates watching him waste his life away in front of the TV, and that he has become very clingy. She seems very worried that she'll remain healthy and will have to end up taking care of him. ETA: I think for her, the issue is more that he's letting himself go mentally by doing nothing all day and will let himself deteriorate w/o caring how it will affect her/their lives

I have suggested many times that they both go see a counselor/therapist - my father has gone a few times, although I'm not sure it's doing him any good because he's not the self-analytical type. My mother keeps saying she'll go, but she doesn't.

On top of it, my mother doesn't drive, so everywhere she needs to go, my father takes her. So she can't just get in the car and go see a friend, for example.

I am conflicted about this (because I can see both sides objectively), and conflicted about what I could/should do. I was wondering if anyone has gone through this type of situation, and what you did, or what you suggest.

 

[soocool]

Your father has worked his entire life and does not know what to do with himself. Would he consider working part time or volunteering? He needs purpose in his life and I think for men it is more difficult than for women to find something that gives you something to look forward to. With my dad it was helping out in the local high school with the wordworking class. He loved that the students looked up to him and he was a mentor to them. To this day they still keep in touch with my dad even though many of them have been out of school for a few years.

 

[CJ2008]

Yeah, I thought volunteering or working was something that could help him feel useful, so I had given him a couple of places for him to look into...he always says he'll think about it but then doesn't really do anything about it...

 

[soocool]

Yeah, I thought volunteering or working was something that could help him feel useful, so I had given him a couple of places for him to look into...he always says he'll think about it but then doesn't really do anything about it...

Sometimes you just have to drag them by the hand. That's what we did to my dad. We went during the day to the class(with instructors permission beforehand). My dad then made the committment.

 

[davi_el_mejor]

Yeah, I thought volunteering or working was something that could help him feel useful, so I had given him a couple of places for him to look into...he always says he'll think about it but then doesn't really do anything about it...

Does he have grandchildren? Finding things that involve grandchildren is a great motivator. Volunteer to read to their class or at their little league games etc...

 

[Kaleigh]

My dad went through this. Sometimes you DO have to take them by the hand. I also got the sense that my dad was depressed so took him to see a psychiatrist. I also begged him to volunteer, but that went over like a lead balloon. He's much better now, and back to meeting friends etc.. He also takes care of my Mom, which is a big job. I help when needed, but after caring for my Mom's mom for 16+ years, I really am worn out.

 

[meresal]

If your mom is really worried about it, then she needs to go to teh counselor as well.

Does your dad take her everywhere she wants to go? As in, if she asks to go somewhere, does he take her no questions asked, or does he put up a fight eveytime? Does he want to do things, but just not as often as your mom would like?

how long has he been retired?

 

[House Cat]

I would be certain too, that he is physically well. Depression has already been mentioned and it is very common among retired men. There are also other physical conditions that can look like depression. Maybe it's time that dad has a full physical. He might not be very social, but it doesn't sound normal to want to sit in front of the TV for the rest of your life.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

There is nothing you can do. Your father has the right to live his life watching TV and isolating himself. You can't force someone to be active and if he is depressed, you cannot force him into therapy. Your mom, unfortunately for her, is dependent on him to drive, but she that's her *choice*.

ETA: you don't have to like the situation but you need to accept it. Their lives. Their choices.

 

[Skippy123]

There is nothing you can do. Your father has the right to live his life watching TV and isolating himself. You can't force someone to be active and if he is depressed, you cannot force him into therapy. Your mom, unfortunately for her, is dependent on him to drive, but she that's her *choice*.

ETA: you don't have to like the situation but you need to accept it. Their lives. Their choices.

ditto Tacori. My parents are in their 70's so I understand where you are coming from. I do understand how you feel about wanting to help them out.

 

[mary poppins]

I agree with the suggestions you've received regarding motivating/helping your dad to get involved in activities, either work or volunteering. Also, looking into physical into physical and mental reasons and counseling. Ultimately, though, perhaps he's content doing what he's doing. Nobody can make him do something he doesn't want to do.

As to your mom, is there a reason why she doesn't drive? If the only reasons are personal choice or fear, perhaps she would be amenable to getting a driver's license now. That way, she can enjoy her life now without having to rely on your dad. Also, should she outlive him, she'll be able to be independent. It's never too late, and a variety of reasons can be the catalyst. I'm very proud of my grandmother who got her driver's license at 69 after my grandfather died. It made a big difference in her life.

 

[CJ2008]

Socool & Kaleigh - maybe he does need a little push...although sometimes I think he doesn't actually really want to do anything

Davi - yes, he has one grandchild, from my sister...he adores her...but he is so reserved, I don't even think that could lure him. BUT - it's a "different" enough idea I hadn't thought of, so I'm going to bring it up to my sister and see if she knows of any opportunities.

Meresal - my mother would benefit from therapy exactly for the reason you said, and more. Just like any of us, actually, in my opinion.
My dad takes my mom everywhere she want to go. I think he does enjoy doing things, just not that often, and not with a lot of people. Always been that way. He's been retired about a year or so, maybe two.

House Cat - I think that's what my mother struggles with - leaving him alone to do what he wants to do versus feeling like he's just going to waste away. But I think that really, my dad has been a bit lethargic all his life - sure, he used to do more when he was younger - but who knows if that was my mom pushing him into doing half the stuff.

Tacori - I agree with everything you said 100%. As far as my mother driving - to tell you the truth, I think my mother "designed" it that way many, many years ago so that she would depend on him, and he would always be around to take her everywhere. I talked to them both many times about all the reasons why it would be smart for my mother to drive - but they both seem to be against it. It's a weird dynamic, really.

...What prompted me to post today is that my aunt left a message saying she wanted to talk to me about my parents, that my sister and I need to "do something" or at least attempt to find a solution. I had kind of a strong reaction to the message, to both extremes - first was guilt (have I done enough to try to see if I can reason with them, have I given them enough resources/ideas?) to feeling like, really, you think I can have the solution to their relationship and personality differences, that have been there for like 50 years? And a solution to what, exactly? Force my father to volunteer or get out of the house, or make my mother stop losing patience with him somehow?

Mary - agreed. I think it may actually help my dad if I went with him to something he might consider as a volunteer. It would be very low pressure (I don't believe in "making" anyone do anything) but me physically going with him may make a difference. Maybe he's embarrassed to admit he needs to volunteer just to have something to do. I also agree that he is probably very content watching TV - and I totally respect his not wanting to be around people too much (I'm like that myself See my response to Tacori re: my mother driving. But maybe this is another one of those maybe they need a little push kind of thing...not forcing them or having it become a "thing" (not my style) - but maybe suggesting it again, or creating a situation where say DH is with my mom and he goes to a parking lot and asks her "want to give it a shot?" or something like that.

 

[Laughinggravy0]

I agree with Kaleigh, sounds like he might be a bit depressed. Counseling would be really good. Good luck, its stressful to see your parents in trouble.

 

[movie zombie]

um, i don't think its good that your mother is talking to you re this instead of a counselor. while an adult, you are still the child of both of them. you say you can see both sides. tell your mother this. after all these years she's either accepted him as he is or hasn't.......and its sort of their problem to work out, not yours.

love them both, accept them both, let them work out their own problems. i hear hints of long established patterns of interaction [driving issue] that hint at perhaps a can of worms you'd be better not getting into. this is what good counselors are for.

MoZo

 

[CJ2008]

Laughing - thanks, I do think counseling would be very good for both of them. But you know how it is - they both have to really want it in order for it to "work".

mozo - I agree - I think it's selfish when parents put that kind of burden of on their children - it really is a very intimate issue between the both of them - and yes, I also agree that either she has accepted him as he is, or hasn't. And if she's realizing she hasn't, or doesn't want to be with him any more, I so do not want to be the first one to hear it.

For all these reasons my aunt texting me that "I need to try to find a solution" really put me off...I understand why she's feeling that way - she has told me that my mother has been really short with my father, and kind of being mean to him in front of people. And honestly, even with my aunt these conversations seem too close for comfort.

I just feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, because I have told my mother she should go see a counselor, and that I can see both sides. And because I also think that even if my father went to volunteer somewhere, that's only going to be a couple of hours a day. Don't get me wrong - I think it would be GREAT for him, and it would get him out of the house and out of my mother's "path" - so it would probably alleviate the situation. But it's not going to change who he ultimately is - so if she's kind of "fed up" it's not going to change that...

I had told my aunt I was going to call her this week but I keep procrastinating because I don't want to talk about this with her - and she's probably going to say things to make me feel guilty that I haven't done "enough" to find a solution - and I want to just avoid this conversation altogether.

 

[movie zombie]

it is not your job to find a solution....nor is it your aunt's. let's be clear: these are grown adults that married and stayed together for whatever their reasons. this may be a blip on the retirement front radar....or not. only a counselor can help your parents individually and/or together in couples counseling. be clear with your aunt. don't let her take the offensive and make you feel guilty. you have nothing to feel guilty about. she does by trying to unload this on you.

practice what you want to say to her....then text her. not as assertive as calling her and flat out telling your aunt but, hey, she's been texting you so text her back with what you want to say and then drop it. and let her know you're dropping it.

MoZo

ps good luck. have similar situation here. my words to my mother are "dad's been this way all his life". sort of ends the discussion....

 

[CJ2008]

only a counselor can help your parents individually and/or together in couples counseling. be clear with your aunt. don't let her take the offensive and make you feel guilty. you have nothing to feel guilty about. she does by trying to unload this on you

Yes, I kind of thought the same thing...she's probably frustrated or just doesn't want to deal with it any more and wants to unload it on me.

Texting her is definitely not as assertive - but maybe it's not even worth my time/aggravation/stress to try to be. Either way I'll be fearful of the next time I see her - because I'm not sure how this might affect our relationship (if she's now thinking along the lines of how ungrateful and unloving I am).

I'm sorry to hear you're going through a similar thing. I can't tell you how many times I've said to my mom "dad hasn't changed".

 

[JewelFreak]

A lot of good advice here, CJ. The suggestion of a physical for your dad is a good place to start, especially if he hasn't had one in some time. He might be low-this or -that & could be feeling more peppy quickly. (Sorry this is long, but read to the end, please!)

If he's ok physically, is he depressed watching tv all day? If he's content, it sounds like the problem is your mother's -- instead of driving yourself crazy trying to change a dad who's happy as he is, the effort could more productively be put into your mom. You might point out that she's putting the burden on him when it's she who wants something different. Maybe she should look into volunteering or taking classes, getting involved in church, whatever. A new breeze through the brain helps the attitude greatly. She absolutely must learn to drive or take taxis or buses; just that little independence could make a big difference in her outlook.

Retirement is a major adjustment for both spouses. I have experience, groan. My husband retired about 10 yrs early & having him around all day has not been easy. He began writing books -- is now working on his 5th and 6th -- but seems to have given up all his other interests. He walks the dogs but otherwise sits in front of his computer all day every day. If I couldn't drive, I'd have killed one of us by now! I do stuff with friends or by myself, museums, canoeing, even parties occasionally. He is who he is -- either I accept it or divorce him, and I'm not in the mood to do that. At some point you realize that you can't change someone else -- you can only change how you deal with him. If your mom can find stimulation in other things she may feel less need to pressure your father for it.

As to your aunt -- why doesn't she pitch in? Could she help your mom find some kind of outlet? Have her over more often? You are doing the best you can -- so if she's not willing to provide more than scolding for you, tell her nicely to butt out. Sounds like a family trend: she's doing to you exactly as your mother is to your dad: putting on someone else the responsibility to change what she feels should be changed. And often that can't be done at all.

Above all, you deserve no guilt, remember that! You're a good girl, doing your best with a tough situation. Aging parents can be really stressful, I have tons of friends going through it. (Mine both died young -- not experiencing this is the only plus.) There is no way anyone can fix the lives of 2 adults -- especially 2 who long ago developed how they relate to each other. You can make suggestions; ultimately it's up to them to do the fixing. We all carry enough guilt -- no need to accept some you didn't earn!

--- Laurie

 

[TooPatient]

My grandfather (now 76):

coffee with a few of "the guys" downtown every morning
restores/builds motors to take to shows
photographs flowers (and edits on the computer)
makes stuff (current project is a cat-post for my cats)
improves the house (new gravel in driveway, stone border, etc)


What hobbies does your dad have? Maybe you can give him a new tool (or whatever) appropriate to his hobby for his b-day or fathers day or something. That might get him up and going on a something he likes to do but didn't have enough time for while working.
(like for my grandfather I might do a new cutting blade for the saw he used to cut rocks, or a set of jewlers tools, or an old engine from an antique store, or a better camera)

 

[Laughinggravy0]

Jewelfreak spot on, and CJ you are quite right, he does need to want to go of course, I think my answer was a bit glib. I think a medical is a great idea plus the rest of Jewel's post, if he is well and happy doing what he's doing, then its down to how your mum handles it.

My parents almost don't talk, they've come to an unspoken agreement (not surprizingly given the first part of my sentence) which carves the house up into rooms they frequent so they don't have to spend too much time together. Works for them. My mother was in a total state of panic when my father retired and this is their solution. But there were a few vituperative years before they worked out their 'space' thing.

Good luck with it.

 

[Laughinggravy0]

Sorry, just to add, when I look around at the older couples I know, it is invariably the guys that drive their wives nuts and the factor is, as far as I have seen, usually the guy's unwillingness to socialise and be 'companionable'. I can't count the number of times I have heard the woman of the couple sigh that her husband just never talks to her.

Brace yourselves ladies.....

 

[JewelFreak]

it is invariably the guys that drive their wives nuts and the factor is, as far as I have seen, usually the guy's unwillingness to socialise and be 'companionable'. I can't count the number of times I have heard the woman of the couple sigh that her husband just never talks to her.

Very astute observation, LG. Hadn't thought of that, but it does tend to be true, thinking about relatives & people I've known. And the men complain about sex, I think it's in their DNA!

--- Laurie

 

[CJ2008]

A new breeze through the brain helps the attitude greatly. She absolutely must learn to drive or take taxis or buses; just that little independence could make a big difference in her outlook.

...you can only change how you deal with him. If your mom can find stimulation in other things she may feel less need to pressure your father for it.

...putting on someone else the responsibility to change what she feels should be changed. And often that can't be done at all.

There is no way anyone can fix the lives of 2 adults -- especially 2 who long ago developed how they relate to each other. You can make suggestions; ultimately it's up to them to do the fixing. We all carry enough guilt -- no need to accept some you didn't earn!

Laurie,

I love so much of what you said in your post - especially the points I highlighted above.

I carry a lot of guilt with me, 24/7. I need loads of time by myself, and don't really enjoy being around other people too much, so I don't visit often, or call as often as my parents would like. So when my aunt said what she said, it triggered all kinds of guilt.

But the truth is that I feel I have tried to help - in the way I know how and in the way I believe - making suggestions, being encouraging, finding my father a few places to volunteer, etc. But I don't believe in spending more time or effort than someone is willing to spend on themselves to fix a problem. Ultimately, I believe in people taking responsibility for themselves and their situation.

Although the gentler side of me DOES feel that I COULD give one more shot to talking to them again to see if I get through - to my mom, about counseling and learning how to drive, and to my dad, to find out how HE'S feeling - does he really ENJOY watching TV or does he genuinely feel he would like to do something else, but doesn't know WHAT? In the past, I've talked to them while they were together in the same room - so my father is under my mom's grip and they play off each other. I'm thinking a different approach might work better - maybe take my father out to lunch, then my mom. And if my father says yes, he would really like to do something and that he wants my help, I'll give it another shot - maybe like Kaleigh and a few others have said, it might make a difference if I physically go with him.

So I am willing to do talk to them again...but I'm going to feel good about what I've done so far, too, and not allow my aunt to make me feel guilty. Now I have to come up with a good text that will say what I need to say hopefully in a way that won't ignite a fight or a phone conversation because it will be hard for me to stay in guilt-free mode (I can totally foresee some of the things she'll say - it's like I can say them for her) So yes, I am definitely a wimp.

 

[CJ2008]

TooPatient - my father never had a lot of hobbies. To tell you the truth I don't know where my mother ends and my father begins. He was never very talkative, or did a lot of things on his own. He likes woodworking, and has every tool imaginable, but I notice that he no longer has the patience for it. He used to love fixing things around the house but now it's like he can't be bothered. Sometimes my mother will push him to go hang out with a group of guys at their mutual friend's house - and he'll go - but then she's not happy unless he's talking and interacting. It's the same old, same old - if you're not all social, somehow you're not OK as a person. People can't understand that a more introverted person can absolutely enjoy themselves by listening and observing.

Laughing - you know what's kind of too close for comfort for me? Is that I've always said I never EVER want to end up with a guy who lives his life watching TV. The couch potato thing really turns me off. And it makes me feel bad to say that because in some ways I feel like I'm dissing my father. But I'm not, really. It's more that I realize that she picked him, and and what's probably happened with them is that she's pushed him to be more social all his life - so she never really accepted him but molded him into what she wanted him to be. And now that he's home all day...well, there's reality...it's kind of sad, really.

 

[VRBeauty]

um, i don't think its good that your mother is talking to you re this instead of a counselor. while an adult, you are still the child of both of them. you say you can see both sides. tell your mother this. after all these years she's either accepted him as he is or hasn't.......and its sort of their problem to work out, not yours.

love them both, accept them both, let them work out their own problems. i hear hints of long established patterns of interaction [driving issue] that hint at perhaps a can of worms you'd be better not getting into. this is what good counselors are for.

MoZo

Ditto everything MZ has posted here. Your parents are adults, and are (or should be) capable of dealing with this themselves. Butting in on behalf of your mother is IMHO inappropriate. It would also allow them to continue to avoid confronting each other with their concerns and, hopefully, reaching some middle ground.

On the other hand, I think you would be within your rights to address the issue that is of concern to you -- the possibility that your father would be dependent on you to provide for his physical needs should your mother become unable to do so. (I'd add his social needs, but it sounds like he's quite content with his limited social world.) I'm sort of thinking out loud here but also speaking from my experience. My father has always been pretty good about helping with household chores (thought not to my mother's satisfaction - LOL) but my mother is also making a point of being sure that he provide himself with reasonably good meals that don't all come from cans. Again thinking out loud here - it might be appropriate for you to say something like "hey dad - I hope you're learning to run that vacuum cleaner, because there won't be any servants involved if you ever need to live with us"...?

BTW the dynamic in my parents' relationship is similar to what you've described here, except that my father could easily spend all day in front of the computer (and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - ). I was very concerned when they both retired because I wasn't sure how long that combination -- outgoing and always active vs. reserved and comfortable with doing little or nothing -- could last. It's been 20 years now, and they're still working it out. I have also wondered over the years how much my mother's impatience with silence and inactivity -- and her tendency to quickly fill those "voids" -- contributed to my father's passivity.

 

[CJ2008]

VRB...I am not sure what the "butting in on behalf of my mother" is referring to...I'm thinking you mean when I said about talking to my dad? If so, maybe you have a good point - it's just that to tell you the truth, I don't think their communication is all that great. Or, I should say, my mom talks, and my dad listens, or follows instructions. And I think the older he gets, the less he's willing to talk or stand up for himself. But I guess that brings us back full circle, doesn't it, about changing decade old patterns between them - this is nothing new. I think my intention was just to find out how HE REALLY feels - so either I can help him find an activity, if that's what he wants, or I can "know" that he's OK and maybe encourage him to speak up and say "no, I don't feel like doing that."

And I see your point about him being able to take care of himself - he's used to my mother serving him and doing everything for him, but that is not how I am...so it would be very draining for me to have to do everything for him, especially cooking. It's gotten to the point that if my mother doesn't cook, or doesn't make him something, he just doesn't eat.

Wow - the more I think about this whole thing the more I realize how complex it is...

 

[VRBeauty]

VRB...I am not sure what the "butting in on behalf of my mother" is referring to...I'm thinking you mean when I said about talking to my dad? .

I'm sorry CJ - I should have read your post more carefully and chosen my words more carefully. On first read it seemed like your mother was confiding in you and you were looking to change your father at her behest... but I now realize that was not the case.

What you're describing is difficult and heart-breaking. We all want more for our parents in what should be their golden years than spending most of each day watching television. As you've indicated, the dynamics between them affect their behavior. I think what I was trying to say is that it's not up to you to try to fix this dynamic. I don't think it would be out of line though to encourage your father to take on some new activities... maybe invite him to go bowling/ go to a home improvement show/ take a walk/ etc. with you. Things that might spark a new interest or remind him of things he gave up when he was working.

 

[JewelFreak]

It's gotten to the point that if my mother doesn't cook, or doesn't make him something, he just doesn't eat.

He likes woodworking, and has every tool imaginable, but I notice that he no longer has the patience for it. He used to love fixing things around the house but now it's like he can't be bothered.

CJ, these 2 statements send up a flag. Before anything else will work, he should go to a doctor & get a checkup. Does he have a regular one? If so, you might make the appt. yourself & clue the dr. in on a change in behavior, as well as the challenge of retirement, since he may not mention it (my DH wouldn't!). Something physical could be at the bottom of some of this.

If he's hypo-whatever or depressed, nothing else you do will have an effect until it's corrected.

A conversation w/him alone is a great idea. If you can get him out to lunch, a ball game, or a walk in the park, he might be a little more forthcoming. Ask questions & listen to what he says and how he says it. Sounds like everyone has been talking at him ad nauseum -- ask & listen. Then think it over & decide what you can do, if anything. It's heartbreaking when we can't help people we love, but we have limited ability to change another adult.

You can change yourself to ease some of the strain. You needn't accept guilt just because your aunt wants to lay it on you. Think about taking a new step & NOT being a wimp -- you will find yourself stronger than you think you are, I'll guarantee. If you keep your voice level & calm when you speak w/her, you'll feel that way & she won't have an excuse to be indignant.

In situations like that, I've figured out what I want to say and even practiced it aloud beforehand, till it comes out smoothly. Makes a big difference in my confidence. Tell her you're doing all you can think of & if she wants to help, herself, you'd welcome it -- but she needs to work directly with her sister(? your mom) or brother (? your dad), not through you. She's known them longer than you have!

Try giving your mother a bus pass or certificate for some cab rides to allow her to get out a bit. Expecting your dad to ferry her everywhere is holding a club over his head, in a way. What did she do when he worked all day? She must have managed. If she doesn't use these gifts, it's her choice.

Once you've done what you can, it will be time to leave it to them. Easier said than done, but assuming the burden of someone else's happiness is pointless. It can't be done successfully with anyone. I'm sure Dear Abby would say then that if your aunt or mom call to complain, it's time to say, "I've done this & this, Mom, and you haven't used the opportunities to change things. I'm worn down hearing it, honey, just can't assume any more. I have to go, will call you soon." Then do it. It's hard the first time, less so each next one. This is your choice -- to set limits or sacrifice your own family, health & sanity. If you speak to her from love, you'll say it exactly right.

--- Laurie

 

[movie zombie]

exactly, guilt is something we allow ourselves to buy into. you don't have to. practice Practice PRACTICE what you want to say. it does help. imagine scenarios in which you might have to set the boundary/limit to your responsibility. and i'll say it again: if your aunt is ok with texting to guilt you, text her back! be clear. its her choice as to how to accept your setting limits. and realize that as an adult yourself you have the right to set limits....even with family.

its not easy. i've had to do it. i have to continue to do it because my mother seems to "forget" that i've set a limit and is always game to see if i'll stick to it. i do ignore some of the remarks made to get a rise out of me. some i accept as just being who she is. but at least once or twice a year, she crosses my line and i pull her up short on it. last time was thanksgiving and in front of family. no hesitation on my part to let her know its her choice as to how she looks at things and how she chooses to feel about things...in front of said family. her attempt to continue was met with my continuing to repeat that mantra. she dropped it. a few weeks later she broached the topic in a tone of voice that told me she didn't still get it and i told her the topic was off limits as it created tension. she was speechless. not a bad thing!

i do agree that your dad should see a dr and get a medical evaluation. and that your discussion with him should reflect YOUR concerns with such statements as "dad, i've noticed.....". do not appear to be echoing your mother or your aunt. it needs to be your heart to his heart. its still his choice as to whether or not he wants to change his life.

good luck,

MoZo