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Paralysis by analysis... HCA 1.2 but only a 2B???

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Dee*Jay

Dee*Jay

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Mar 26, 2006
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So, I''ve found a stone that scores 1.2 on the HCA but only comes out to a 2A on the DIY cut grader. Which one do I put more weight on? Here are the numbers:

3.77 ct
I color
SI2
9.97 x 9.91 x 6.17 mm
62.0% depth (but comes to 62.1 according to the DIY)
54 % table
35.8 crown angle
39.9 pavilion angle
16.8% crown height
41.7% pavilion depth
girdle 1.7% - 2.7% (do not know what that translates to thin/med/etc. so I put Med-Med in the DIY)
VG polish
VG symmetry
EGL USA, cert dated 5/1/06

HCA gives it VG light return, EX fire, EX Scintillarion, and VG spread

So... is this "good" or not? 1.2 on the HCA seems pretty darn good to me, but then only a 2A?

The 3.37 that only scored a HCA .6 the other day got EX/EX/EX/VG and was a 1B.

I''m so confused... And then add in the EGL cert and I''m absolutely paralyzed. I read alternately that EGL USA is as strict as GIA in the current time period, but other''s say they wouldn''t buy an EGL stone, period.

It is more than I was initially willing to spend but I have to be honest and say that if it was GIA I wouldn''t even hesitate. Alternately, at this size I don''t think I''d have to trade up again so maybe the cert isn''t as important as if I wanted to go up again.

Please help me...
 
i may be too strict here but this is one funky stone!

62.0% depth
54 % table
35.8 crown angle
39.9 pavilion angle
16.8% crown height
41.7% pavilion depth

small table and 62 depth is totally not my cup of tea. add in that very steep crown angle and very shallow pav angle...have you see this stone in person? there may be some table leakage...? probably some head obstruction. that pav angle worries me especially.

i would not push the budget for this stone. the EGL cert just solidifies this as a big no. it could be a J I1 with another lab. but if the stone had knockout specs and you saw it in person and it was FAB...the cert wouldn't be AS big of a deal, but those funny numbers *and* the EGL cert? no way.
 
Dee Jay:

Is it possible to have the vendor send the stone to GIA and have them certify it? I think it might cost $200 and will take 6 - 8 weeks but it would probably put your mind at ease if GIA sent it back I/Si2. Are you thinking of having an independent appraiser look at it?

Do you have Eagle Eyes? Do you know where the inclusions are and will they bother you down the road? I remember looking at S12 for my studs and the incusions started to get to me. I know that there are a couple of people who thought they could handle the inclusions but over time it drove them crazy and they sent the stone back.

Does your vendor have an 100% trade in policy? Would they buy the stone back from you should you want to change it down the road? Do you think you would be happier waiting to get to as close to 4 carats as you can? LizzyD went through this as well and just sent her 3.11 rbc to WF to add rbc sidestones over a carat each.

Don''t rush the process and make sure you aren''t comprosing too much on the numbers. If you are questioning it too much and people have to sell you on it, it probably isn''t the stone for you. I guarantee there is a stone out there for you
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Roppongi
 
Okay, so I wanted to add that the stone is a 1.2 FIC.

That means that that this stone would probably be VERY fiery...with a little less white brilliance. I personally only like TIC''s for rings, but if you really are looking for something different, this stone could work. But man those are some funky numbers. We don''t see that often on here!!

I''d want to see this stone in person before making any sort of decision on it. It may be different looking than you would think.
 
I too thought it was a bit "funky" but when the HCA gave it a 1.2 I thought, we''ll maybe I''m just stupid! As for the FIC, it was firey, but I think I prefer TICs better too.

I''m seriously leaning toward that 3.37 (that only scored a HCA .6
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). I''ve read every thread on scores below 1 and my general take-away is that stones under .6 can suffer from lack of contrast (a phrase that I''m still struggling to define in my own mind... ) if you look at it at less than 10 inches from you eye. I''m such a nut that I spent last night walking around my house with a ruler dangerously close to my eyeball trying to decide at what distance I *can* and generally *do* focus on objects, including my ring! (I tend to be an arms-length looker, by the way, when it comes to my ring.)
 
DJ here is a way to think of contrast.

See my stone in my avatar?

See how you can see darkness in the stone, but then there is white sparkles too?

That's contrast. The white and the dark playing against each other. The fiery sparkles playing against the black as the stone moves back and forth.

For me contrast is necessary. I remember asking Brian once and he said his sweet spot for HCA is about a score of 1!
 
So does lack of contrast mean it's just dark or that it's just plain white? Or does it depend on the lighting at the time? And is the .6 contrast problem just at 10 inches and closer or all the time? (Sorry if these are stupid questions--I really did read all the threads on this and still came away with confusion!)

ETA: It is a .6 TIC by the way.
 
I don't know re: the 10 inches thing...but without contrast it seems like the stone would just appear white or colorful or dark. Not a mixture/combo of both and to me that is what makes a beautiful diamond!!! The mixture of the lights playing off each other and inside the stone.
 
Date: 6/27/2006 5:07:27 PM
Author: roppongi
Dee Jay:

Is it possible to have the vendor send the stone to GIA and have them certify it? I think it might cost $200 and will take 6 - 8 weeks but it would probably put your mind at ease if GIA sent it back I/Si2. Are you thinking of having an independent appraiser look at it?

Roppongi
Click to expand...
that would be a big IF.
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i agree DJ re: using your eyes...the whole hca under 0.6 thing is kind of out there but i don''t know that we have seen comparisons. this stone maybe is borderline. hard to say...have you seen it?

but i will also throw out there that i don''t think you should settle just because there is a dearth of stones in the range you want. i know it''s tough but BE PATIENT, if these stones are not EXACTLY what you want, then just wait it out. you will find something!
 
Hmmm, very unusual numbers. I can''t say which cut grader is more reliable but the fact that it''s also EGL graded leads me to doubt the stone even more. Yes it''s EGL-USA which is a plus but still, I dunno, I guess I don''t trust them quite as much. I still like the 3.37 stone though, and you said yourself after seeing it in person that it was a beauty. But at this price range, unless you see something that really knocks your socks off, don''t settle for anything less.
 
So I went and "visited" the 3.37 on my way home. The ONLY thing that stops me from whipping out the checkbook is the size. And it''s so purely psychological! I saw a 3.57 the oter day that had virtually the same measurements.

The jeweler is going back to Israel on another buying trip at the end of July. I could either wait to see what he comes back with (not to mention what might come up elsewhere in the meantime!) or take the 3.37 and get full credit toward a bigger stone when one becomes available that I want, either after the trip or at any point in the future because he does full credit toward upgrading.

This is a tough one... If I waited for him to come back and he didn''t bring anything that I wanted and then the 3.37 sold I would be really mad at myself for not taking it!
 
DJmy two cents is you already know you want a larger stone than the 3.37 so I would just wait! I know it's hard to be patient, but I had to wait almost a year before WF had a stone that was EXACTLY what I wanted (I had really stringent requirements for cut AND it had to be J SI, preferrable SI2) and it even had slight fluor which was a bonus! A little patience can go a really long way, esp as you get into the larger stone sizes. Hang in there!!
 
I agree with Mara about waiting. I KNOW first hand how difficult it is but something will turn up that is exactly what you want. I''ve just begun the stone searching quest though I don''t expect it to be as difficult do to the smaller size, it still could take some time for me to find "the one." Hang in there...
 
Oh I'm so conflicted!!! I feel like I have nothing to lose by taking the smaller stone and waiting for the bigger one to come along since I'm going to get the full value of the trade in anyway. That way the $$$ will be split up and the hubby won't have SUCH a heart attack (which is not entirely a funny thing to say since the hubby is having *heart surgery* on Friday but I couldn't resist the pun)!

Today I walked around the office and store for about an hour (they are so used to me now that they just hand over whatever diamond I want to see and walk away--LOL!) and there was just no comparison between my oval and the round. Round just sitting between my fingers; round in tweezers; round in the mock setting; whatever. So my thought is that if I have to look at *some* stone for the next days/months/years until the perfect (Ha!) one comes along I would rather have it be the round.

BUT, again, no hasty decisions. I have an appointment to see some more on Thursday and you never know what else might pop up that I'm just not even expecting!
 
Al, my problem (among other things) is that I have to trade my current 3.02 oval in toward the new stone. I WISH I could just go to Whiteflash or any of the other PS vendors and get a whole new stone, but this oval albatros around my neck is making it such a more difficult process...

But I'm thinking that I really might take the 3.37 and wear it until something better comes along. In any event I don't mind it as much as my current stone and I will get full value toward my next trade.

(Only on Pricescope can I talk about a 3.37 ct diamond as a stop-gap measure until something better comes along--LOL!)
 
DJ what about the setting and the money that goes into it? Can you use the same head for a larger diamond (if you get the 3.337 and get a 4c next or something)? I would just worry about that as an in-between thang. Also, what if you get the 3.37 and then a 4c or something and it just doesnt'' seem that big after the 3.37?
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Thats why I almost feel like you should just wait for the RIGHT stone and then you don''t have to worry about upgrading again or using it as your waiting stone. Just a thought...
 
Date: 6/27/2006 7:23:22 PM
Author: Dee*Jay

The jeweler is going back to Israel on another buying trip at the end of July. I could either wait to see what he comes back with (not to mention what might come up elsewhere in the meantime!) or take the 3.37 and get full credit toward a bigger stone when one becomes available that I want, either after the trip or at any point in the future because he does full credit toward upgrading.

This is a tough one... If I waited for him to come back and he didn''t bring anything that I wanted and then the 3.37 sold I would be really mad at myself for not taking it!
Click to expand...
DJ
can you ask the jeweler to look for certain "specs" that you prefer?
 
Mara, the $$$ is not an issue. I'm prepared to pay for both an almost-4 ct stone and the setting but I can't seem to find the right diamond (don't forget I'm limited in my options due to my trade-in situation). If I take the 3.37 I'll put it in my current setting and then when the bigger stone comes along I'll worry about the perfect setting then. And let's not forget that a nice 3.37 is not exactly shabby so it's not like I'd be walking around with some e-bay piece of frozen spit on my hand while I wait it out! Thank you, by the way, for your patience on all this; you are always SO helpful!

DF, yes and no. The jeweler only sells his own inventory. I asked him if he could look for something specific and he said he goes and buys what he considers the best stones available to him. He said that when he goes looking for certain things he still only buys them if they're good, and he would buy the best 3-4 ct rounds he could find anyway since that's what he's selling a lot of right now. So, long story short (or maybe not so short at this point) he'll try, but no guarantees.

Once I see the stones that someone else is bringing in for me to view tomorrow I think I'll make a decision. (Not too hopeful about whatever THAT jewler produces though because when I went for my first appointment the other day they had no stones to show me even though I have them my parameters a week in advance and then spent 40 minutes stalling by trying to "educate" me while the owner took his sweet time driving in from his house to meet me for my scheduled appointment. Their assessment of me was that I was "one of those people hung up on cut." Did you know that only "10% of a diamonds sparkle is determined by cut" ... I couldn't get them to articulate to what they attribute the other 90% of a dimaond's sparkle.)
 
Date: 6/27/2006 10:40:52 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
Al, my problem (among other things) is that I have to trade my current 3.02 oval in toward the new stone. I WISH I could just go to Whiteflash or any of the other PS vendors and get a whole new stone, but this oval albatros around my neck is making it such a more difficult process...

But I''m thinking that I really might take the 3.37 and wear it until something better comes along. In any event I don''t mind it as much as my current stone and I will get full value toward my next trade.

(Only on Pricescope can I talk about a 3.37 ct diamond as a stop-gap measure until something better comes along--LOL!)
Click to expand...

AH......got it. Bummer.

Hope you find something good as soon as possible!
 
Havent read thru every comment in this thread but if it makes your heart go pitter patter to look at it then buy it,, if it dont then dont buy it.
 
Date: 6/28/2006 9:25:24 AM
Author: Dee*Jay

DF, yes and no. The jeweler only sells his own inventory. I asked him if he could look for something specific and he said he goes and buys what he considers the best stones available to him. He said that when he goes looking for certain things he still only buys them if they''re good, and he would buy the best 3-4 ct rounds he could find anyway since that''s what he''s selling a lot of right now. So, long story short (or maybe not so short at this point) he''ll try, but no guarantees.

Once I see the stones that someone else is bringing in for me to view tomorrow I think I''ll make a decision. (Not too hopeful about whatever THAT jewler produces though because when I went for my first appointment the other day they had no stones to show me even though I have them my parameters a week in advance and then spent 40 minutes stalling by trying to ''educate'' me while the owner took his sweet time driving in from his house to meet me for my scheduled appointment. Their assessment of me was that I was ''one of those people hung up on cut.'' Did you know that only ''10% of a diamonds sparkle if determined by cut'' ... I couldn''t get them to articulate to what they attribute the other 90% of a dimaond''s sparkle.)
Click to expand...
DJ
i think your jeweler needs an education on cut.
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tell him...that is why only 10% of the diamonds sparkle like it should.
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lol df...really! i''d be like....ummm if only 10% of your diamonds sparkle come from cut, maybe i don''t wanna buy from you after all???????? because guess what? mine is like 99.9%!! hehee.

DJ..keep us posted...I know that the 3.37 is definitely not chopped liver, but i kind of know ME and my own mental hangups and i think if i got a 3.37 waiting for a 3.80 or something, i''d get the 3.37 and then get used to it and then get the 3.8 whenever and feel like it''s not big enough since there is visually not much of a difference between the two in that large of a size. so i just am worried that you''d be like well maybe i should just get a 4.5 or something when if you had just waited to begin with, the 3.8 would be huge. period.

mental musings anyway.
 
No no no! It's not my jeweler that said those stupid goofy things! It is someone else entirely!

And LOL on needing a 4.5! *MAYBE* I would decide that the 3.37 is BIG ENOUGH. (ROFLMAO at MYSELF for even saying something like that!!!)

And interesting twist, by the way. My jeweler just called and asked if I could bring my oval over so he could show it to someone who was interested. Wouldn't that be GREAT??? To just sell the damn thing back to him and then take the $$$ to anywhere I wanted? I'll be sitting in my office fantasizing about that scenario all afternoon! If the Whiteflash site is slow for the rest of the day it's ME that's tying it up!!!
 
DJ the really interesting thing is that WF 3.59 stone has the same diameter as the 3.77 EGL you were considering.

Oh the difference a smaller depth can make. That is why I love those 60.6 depths!!! It maximizes diameter.
 
Oops -- double post!
 
And the 3.57 AGS that I looked at was only an average of .075 mm bigger than the 3.37.
3.37 depth = 61.1 (9.70 X 9.65 mm)
3.57 depth = 62.2 (9.77 X 9.73 mm)
Amazing what a percentage point can do!

(BTW, I just found a 4.07 on Whiteflash''s site that I am drooling over...)
 
Well DJ, I''m coming in a bit late as usual, but I have to say that I am with Mara...

This is a super large purchase, if you settle, rather than wait for the "right"
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diamond, you''ll end up regretting it. I always think that the anticipation makes the purchase all the much more exciting, I would keep looking, you''ll end up finding the most beautiful stone ever.

I stumbled on my 3.11 rb (just purchased a few weeks ago), but I am not the technician that Mara and the like are here on PS. I love good cut and quality, but I really don''t have time to analize ever angle and %. If my eyes love it and I feel "connected" to the stone, than it''s the one for me. You don''t seem at all connected to this stone, in fact, you seem to want us to give you permission to just "settle".

Don''t do it girlfriend, keep lookin.
 
Oh BB, I must have come off the wrong way! I actually DO like the 3.37 but I froze up when the HCA gave it a .6. I kept thinking that there must be something wrong with ME that I liked this thing, but I''ve been back to see it a few times now and despite the score I am becoming rather fond of it.

My plan of the moment (and it does change moment by moment... ) is to probably get the 3.37 until a 4(ish) one comes along. I''ve already talked to the jeweler about trading up and he has no problem with me trading at the point a stone that I want becomes available. Could be a month, could be a year, but he''s willing to take it at any time.
 
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