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Out-of-wedlock child birth is the new norm

Laila619

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http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/06/for_millennials_out_of_wedlock_childbirth_is_the_norm_now_what.html

Read a surprising article: these days, it's more common for a baby to be born to an unwed mother than a married one. Why do you think that is? I guess getting married is just not that popular anymore among millennials. Am I hopelessly old-fashioned for thinking this is kind of sad? Some of these couples don't even live together. Having a newborn is hard enough; I can't imagine why a woman would willingly want to do it alone, while her boyfriend lives at his own place. Whatever floats your boat I guess!
 

Dancing Fire

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Laila619|1459299317|4012870 said:
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/06/for_millennials_out_of_wedlock_childbirth_is_the_norm_now_what.html

Read a surprising article: these days, it's more common for a baby to be born to an unwed mother than a married one. Why do you think that is? I guess getting married is just not that popular anymore among millennials. Am I hopelessly old-fashioned for thinking this is kind of sad? Some of these couples don't even live together. Having a newborn is hard enough; I can't imagine why a woman would willingly want to do it alone, while her boyfriend lives at his own place. Whatever floats your boat I guess!
more likely than not b/c their parents was also born out of wedlock. Why should they get marry ? since a single mom can easily qualify for welfare. Yes I'd feel sad for many of these kids, b/c some of them don't even know who is their natural father.
 

Queenie60

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It's interesting how so many of them do it a** backwards. Sad to see, not many family values any longer. My opinion for what it's worth.
 

liaerfbv

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I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
 

monarch64

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Well, someone has to do it wrong so the rest of us can feel superior, right? :rolleyes:
 

Tacori E-ring

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liaerfbv|1459303009|4012912 said:
I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
ditto. Marriage does not always equal healthy social modeling.
 

wildcat03

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My fi is a tax accountant and always points out that having children out of wedlock benefits people financially. If they live together and each can claim at least one dependent, both can file as "head of household" (this is fraudulent, but the IRS does a TERRIBLE job of tracking this) and have WAY lower taxes than if they filed properly.
 

sonnyjane

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Tacori E-ring|1459308668|4012961 said:
liaerfbv|1459303009|4012912 said:
I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
ditto. Marriage does not always equal healthy social modeling.
SO true! A bad marriage is way worse than a good single-parent or just unwed family home.

Plus, I'm a woman married to a man but that's about the extent of where "traditional" ends for us. It's 50/50 as far as finances and household chores go, we cook separate meals, do separate laundry, go grocery shopping separately, have different hobbies, vacation separately often, and have no interest or plans to have children.

I've had people tell me we don't have a "real" marriage because of that. We've been happy as clams for ten years though so guess it's "real" to us!

You know what Kenny says - people vary!! It doesn't affect me one iota whether another couple chooses to marry or not.
 

Snowdrop13

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There has been a gradual change over the past 20 years or so. Part of my job is in obstetrics- in the early 1990s every couple was married, with very few exceptions, now, hardly any are. This seems to be regardless of religion or class, although I'd say the older, more educated couples are more likely to be married. Increasingly, there isn't a partner at all.

Why is this? I hear a lot of couples say that they are saving up to get married- it amazes me that a wedding is regarded as more expensive than having a baby! I suppose it could be true. I have a couple of friends who got married after baby No 1 was born.
 

Siameseroo

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I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
 

AdaBeta27

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Most miillenials aren't making much money. Many, if they even got a post secondary education, are saddled with school loan debt. Government handouts for unwed low income mom in many cases pays better than whatever jobs she can find, and government handouts are long term steady income. Blue collar men lost men lost the most jobs in the 2008 & up recession and many of those jobs are gone forever. Women's work like ed and med werent hit as hard and are just recently facing cutbacks. Obama care actually cut medical benefits for many part-time workers when employers werent required to offer them by law. More part-time no benefits unstable employment replaced good salaried jobs. Offspring eroded wages for IT and engineering, and other occupations that used to pay exceptionally well.

So welcome to the new global economy. The only people statistically likely to marry are the dual career affluent and largely debt free college grads. Middle class is becoming lower class, and the lower class marries the government handouts. In my part of the rust belt, it's been like that since the manufacturing jobs started disappearing in the late '70s. These aren't the people who are chatting on Pricescope and buying big engagement rings.
 

AdaBeta27

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ricezo|1459326751|4013017 said:
I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
It's not sad if these are wellheeled people who are doing everything "right" except being married. But largely what is happening with out of wedlock births is due to USA becoming lower socioeconomic and more people gaming the system because welfare benefits pay better and offer better benefits package than working. There are a lot of bedhopping losers with too many kids in my town. Suburban and rural poverty everywhere. Wild living, and no money. But women have 3 or 4 kids, no more than 2 with the same daddy.
 

Niel

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How easy it is to pass judgement.

I had my first daughter out of wedlock. My second in our marriage. They have the same father.

My then boyfriend, now husband and I found out I was pregnant when I was in my last year of college. We did not feel it necessary to have a shotgun wedding, and did not want the perception that our marriage was based off of a baby, not in our love for each other. We spent our money on the baby, a new house, and medical bills instead of a wedding.

I have not had a penny of welfare money in my life. And my husband didn't bed hope before our wedding.

A child together doesn't mean you love the other person. My generation has seen that with 50% of our parents getting divorced. There is less societal pressure when you find yourself "knocked up" to get a shotgun wedding. First and foremost you want to provide a stable environment for your child. And again, as many now new parents have seen, marriage doesn't necessarily mean that. I don't think it's sad that people are putting more thought into their legal commitments before committing to them.

In my situation, what alternative would you have suggested?
 

madelise

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Wow, wtf. A topic about people choosing to not marry has turned into "those people" are scamming welfare.


This is disgusting.
 

liaerfbv

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AdaBeta27|1459336349|4013041 said:
ricezo|1459326751|4013017 said:
I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
It's not sad if these are wellheeled people who are doing everything "right" except being married. But largely what is happening with out of wedlock births is due to USA becoming lower socioeconomic and more people gaming the system because welfare benefits pay better and offer better benefits package than working. There are a lot of bedhopping losers with too many kids in my town. Suburban and rural poverty everywhere. Wild living, and no money. But women have 3 or 4 kids, no more than 2 with the same daddy.
Yikes. Setting aside your extreme judgment for a minute... people love to complain about how much people get on welfare without actually doing any research about it. First of all, there is no program in the US called "welfare" - it's colloquially a collection of need-based programs. It's actually fairly rare for anyone to qualify for EVERY program. So those conservative blasts you see that claim "Oh, people on welfare make $20 an hour!" are absolute crap. Additionally, if you want to get extremely technical, the Earned Income Tax Credit and the Child Tax Credit deductions that 8 million Americans take every year on their tax returns are a form of "welfare." If you take a tax deduction for your child (yes, including those born IN WEDLOCK), YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN A WELFARE PROGRAM.

To break down the numbers, I'm using Rhode Island for example 1) because it's the most recent data I can find, and 2) typically NE states pay more in benefits than other areas of the country, and I want to use an example of the HIGHEST benefits you can receive.
A single mom with 2 kids in RI can qualify for:
- $6,648 cash subsidy
- $6,249 in food stamps (SNAP program)
- $12,702 in housing subsidies
- $11,302 for health care coverage
- $275 in heating assistance
- $300 from the Emergency Food Assistance program
- $1,156 from WIC
Total: $38,632 (or about $20 an hour, aka the conservative watch-dogs war cry)

HOWEVER. There are so many qualifications required for all these benefits. You only qualify for WIC if you have a child under 5. Housing subsidies aren't available to those who also receive the cash subsidy, if I'm reading the report correctly. Etc.

The average benefits that the majority of applicants qualify for are: food stamps and Medicaid programs, which are only about $17,000.
The federal poverty line for a family of 3 is $20,160 (in 2015). The average "welfare" recipient is still under the goddamn federal poverty line.

Returning to your judgment, whether or not someone is "well-heeled" or "poor as f*ck" - it's still their own choice whether or not to get married when they have children, and it has nothing to do with you, me, my family values or your family values, your life or my life, or incorrect assumptions about federal benefits.
 

qubitasaurus

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I am a bit dubious about this article. If I am reading it correctly then it is alleging 1/2 the woman giving birth under 30 are not married.

Assuming the average female marries at 28, takes a year to fall pregnant, and then 9 months to have the child. Then if she is married then she is likely to be 30 on average when this first child arrives. I know this is a back of the envelop style calculation. But I feel like all the article has discovered is that the average age of first marriage has gone up.
 

iLander

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There is a huge difference between "having a baby" and "raising a child".

Children are expensive, and why anyone would choose to take on this expense alone, is beyond me. Studies continually show that single mothers are among the poorest people in our country:

Single mothers earn income that place them well below married mothers in the income ladder. The gap between the two groups is significantly large. The median income for families led by a single mother in 2013 was about $26,000, one third (⅓) the median for married couple families ($84,000).

These couples are sure (because they choose not to marry) that at some point they will not be together. And good intentions aside, it's tough to make support payments when your new girlfriend wants a ski boat. And hey, a name on a birth certificate doesn't really prove anything (so many court cases on this). Even with a marriage certificate, it's difficult to collect support payments, but without one it's nearly impossible.

If only there was a document that would make the man obligated to support the woman and his child thru adulthood, that would be great.

Oh, right. It's called a marriage certificate. :rolleyes:

After all the free-to-be-you-and-me, all the feel-good baby stuff, it comes down to the reason marriage was invented in the first place: to protect the mother and child.

If you don't want to get married, fine. Go for it. But at Least get a legal document that protects your rights and the rights of your child.

source: https://singlemotherguide.com/single-mother-statistics/
 

telephone89

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madelise|1459341421|4013048 said:
This is disgusting.
+1.

Considering the average age of weddings have gone up, and the average age for having a first born is the highest it's ever been, I really don't think there's a reason to be 'sad' about it.
 

Laila619

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ricezo|1459326751|4013017 said:
I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
Well it's sad if they are having a baby without thinking things through or being 100% committed, and then they break up, and then the child is raised in a fatherless household. Why do we have to be PC and pretend that it's not better for a child to be raised in a stable, healthy marriage with two parents? It IS better. Many statistics show that outcomes for children in fatherless homes are worse than in a stable, two parent household. That's just common sense. Also, stats show that people who are married are more likely to stay together than people who are merely dating or living together. Just because some marriages end doesn't make the former incorrect.
 

Laila619

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What doesn't make sense to me is that many of these couples are uncertain as to whether they want to commit to each other in marriage. But having a baby together is a much bigger commitment! If you're not sure about someone, why would you want to have a CHILD with them? You will be linked for life. There's no bigger commitment than that.
 

Laila619

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Tacori E-ring|1459308668|4012961 said:
liaerfbv|1459303009|4012912 said:
I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
ditto. Marriage does not always equal healthy social modeling.
Of course not. But *in general*, kids tend to do better in a stable, two-parent home (which often = marriage) than in a single parent home.
 

telephone89

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Laila619|1459350179|4013093 said:
ricezo|1459326751|4013017 said:
I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
Well it's sad if they are having a baby without thinking things through or being 100% committed, and then they break up, and then the child is raised in a fatherless household. Why do we have to be PC and pretend that it's not better for a child to be raised in a stable, healthy marriage with two parents? It IS better. Many statistics show that outcomes for children in fatherless homes are worse than in a stable, two parent household. That's just common sense. Also, stats show that people who are married are more likely to stay together than people who are merely dating or living together. Just because some marriages end doesn't make the former incorrect.
That's a pretty big assumption. I guess every child born out of wedlock is like this? Great info, thanks!
 

kenny

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madelise|1459341421|4013048 said:
Wow, wtf. A topic about people choosing to not marry has turned into "those people" are scamming welfare.


This is disgusting.
+1

monarch64 nailed it above when she posted, "Well, someone has to do it wrong so the rest of us can feel superior, right? :rolleyes: "
 

kenny

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Laila619|1459350701|4013098 said:
Tacori E-ring|1459308668|4012961 said:
liaerfbv|1459303009|4012912 said:
I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
ditto. Marriage does not always equal healthy social modeling.
Of course not. But *in general*, kids tend to do better in a stable, two-parent home (which often = marriage) than in a single parent home.
I agree that two parents are better than one.
Three would be better than two.
I'm not slipping into a 3-way marriage argument.
Rather, extended family households are groovy.

(Yeah yeah yeah, two parents who are child molesting ax murders are worse than a single parent with a degree from Yale and the most perfect personality and child rearing skills ... Duh! Why do people even bring these non-arguments up? :roll: )

My SO's brother, his wife and their 2 daughters live with my SO's parents.
Sharing of expenses and child-rearing is really really good for everyone if you can let go of the me me me I expect and must have everything mentality.
It gives retired gradma and grandpa deep meaning and purpose to be needed and to have a part in raising the girls.
It lets mom and dad work their jobs with child care they can trust and afford.
While not without sacrifices, everyone benefits emotionally, psychologically, and financially from this.

I've witnessed the other extreme too.
My sister was a single mom.
Now her daughter is a divorced single mom of two girls.
It's tough.
 

liaerfbv

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Laila619|1459350358|4013095 said:
What doesn't make sense to me is that many of these couples are uncertain as to whether they want to commit to each other in marriage. But having a baby together is a much bigger commitment! If you're not sure about someone, why would you want to have a CHILD with them? You will be linked for life. There's no bigger commitment than that.
The difference is the commitment to the child. I don't have kids, but for example, maybe my marriage doesn't last forever, but I certainly would continue to care for our dog together long after we ever got divorced. You can choose to commit to raise a child with someone and not choose to spend the rest of your life in a relationship with them, and the distinction is none of my business.

Ideally, I think children should be raised by the number or numbers of persons who love and care for them the most. Whether that's a married couple, non-married couple, single gay parent, unmarried gay parents, married gay parents, etc. etc. of every permutation you can think of.
 

Laila619

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telephone89|1459351495|4013104 said:
Laila619|1459350179|4013093 said:
ricezo|1459326751|4013017 said:
I'm shocked and disappointed that in today's day and age having children outside of wedlock is perceived by some (hopefully a minority) to be an issue and I quote, an issue to be 'sad' about.

I know many loving unmarried couples, in healthy, committed relationships, who are the best parents.
Well it's sad if they are having a baby without thinking things through or being 100% committed, and then they break up, and then the child is raised in a fatherless household. Why do we have to be PC and pretend that it's not better for a child to be raised in a stable, healthy marriage with two parents? It IS better. Many statistics show that outcomes for children in fatherless homes are worse than in a stable, two parent household. That's just common sense. Also, stats show that people who are married are more likely to stay together than people who are merely dating or living together. Just because some marriages end doesn't make the former incorrect.
That's a pretty big assumption. I guess every child born out of wedlock is like this? Great info, thanks!
Yes! That is exactly what I said. :rolleyes:

Please kindly note that I said IF. That implies some doubt.
 

Laila619

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liaerfbv|1459352612|4013117 said:
Laila619|1459350358|4013095 said:
What doesn't make sense to me is that many of these couples are uncertain as to whether they want to commit to each other in marriage. But having a baby together is a much bigger commitment! If you're not sure about someone, why would you want to have a CHILD with them? You will be linked for life. There's no bigger commitment than that.
The difference is the commitment to the child. I don't have kids, but for example, maybe my marriage doesn't last forever, but I certainly would continue to care for our dog together long after we ever got divorced. You can choose to commit to raise a child with someone and not choose to spend the rest of your life in a relationship with them, and the distinction is none of my business.

Ideally, I think children should be raised by the number or numbers of persons who love and care for them the most. Whether that's a married couple, non-married couple, single gay parent, unmarried gay parents, married gay parents, etc. etc. of every permutation you can think of.
Yes, that would be nice. But the advantages for children of being raised in a stable, two-parent household are pretty clear and hard to deny.
 

Niel

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Laila619|1459350701|4013098 said:
Tacori E-ring|1459308668|4012961 said:
liaerfbv|1459303009|4012912 said:
I think everyone should live by the values they themselves find important. Some people think it's important to be married to have a child together. Others don't. That doesn't mean they don't have "family values" - it means their family values are different than yours, and that's okay.
ditto. Marriage does not always equal healthy social modeling.
Of course not. But *in general*, kids tend to do better in a stable, two-parent home (which often = marriage) than in a single parent home.

But that's the thing. A two parent home doesn't equal marriage. You're argument is against a single parent home. I think the younger generation has a different view on commitment and marriage, but that doesn't mean they aren't doing what they feel is best for their children.
 

monarch64

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kenny|1459351674|4013108 said:
madelise|1459341421|4013048 said:
Wow, wtf. A topic about people choosing to not marry has turned into "those people" are scamming welfare.


This is disgusting.
+1

monarch64 nailed it above when she posted, "Well, someone has to do it wrong so the rest of us can feel superior, right? :rolleyes: "
I'm gonna have to visit the Pearl subforum today so I can buy some nice ones to clutch. I'm just sitting here grasping at my naked neck. Won't someone think of the children???
 

kenny

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monarch64|1459353551|4013126 said:
kenny|1459351674|4013108 said:
madelise|1459341421|4013048 said:
Wow, wtf. A topic about people choosing to not marry has turned into "those people" are scamming welfare.


This is disgusting.
+1

monarch64 nailed it above when she posted, "Well, someone has to do it wrong so the rest of us can feel superior, right? :rolleyes: "
I'm gonna have to visit the Pearl subforum today so I can buy some nice ones to clutch. I'm just sitting here grasping at my naked neck. Won't someone think of the children???
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