Osirisgems story

[Souled In]

So I got this beautiful blue-green songea sapphire that looks like a part of the ocean from Uli Zeisberg at Osirisgems. We both love it.

I just want to know if and how it is treated.

What Uli said in a very kind letter he sent with the gem that we are considering framing:

If you have the mikroscope try to find the rutile/sagenite crystals. You will need a magnifications of at least 50x. The naked eye has no change (chance I think) to detect it. I love the structures cause it''s the indicator for untreated sapphires. Heattreating would destroy the rutile (TIO2) and let the titanium diffuse in the surroundings. Also the colorchange effect would be killed.
Today it''s hard to get untreated sapphires but I have a source from Idar-Oberstein, Germany for the natural sapphires from Songea, Tanzania.

Osiris has good feedback.. 100% in fact, and he seems to know a lot.


Now, I took it to Tom at the jewelry store where I got my setting, and he is great, but he said all sapphires are treated. He said otherwise they would look rough, but I thought that was just solved with polishing like a rock tumbler does. Furthermore, let''s say that this definitely wasn''t heat treated based on what Uli is saying, could it still have been "pressurized," or something? Too bad Tom only has a 30X microscope.

It cost 453 for the 1.47 ct, but it has a small inclusion, which we don''t mind. This is why I think it didn''t go for 2000. The picture you have seen before I''m sure. It has came up in a couple different threads.

I really don''t care. I just want to know what is right and what is wrong.

 

[lelser]

It''s not true that all sapphires are treated. Heating does little or nothing for Umba or Songea sapphires.

Rutile melts at 1840 degrees Celcius. Be has a melt point of 1278, but the diffusion process goes to ~2000 celcius. If you''re seeing unbroken Rutile, it has almost certainly not been diffused.

http://www.ruby-sapphire.com/beryllium_sapphire.htm

Cheers,

Lisa

 

[Souled In]

Thanks!

 

[iLander]

Simple answer: Tom''s uninformed (I chose the word uninformed because I''m holding my tongue). He may be friendly but he doesn''t know his gems.

Unheated sapphires are rare and precious, and not standard jewelry store fare. Maybe that''s why Tom has never heard of it.

The fact that Osiris, a well respected cutter, sold you a precision cut unheated sapphire for that kind of money is quite a good deal. If he says it''s unheated, then it''s unheated.

Also, I don''t think precision gem cutting involves a rock tumbler.

Try searching unheated sapphire on this site. That will tell you quite a bit.

 

[Souled In]

Lol .. U know what i meant about the rock tumbler..

Fair enough though, and I''m 100% certain you are right.

I mean, I''m going to frame the letter with the taped unfinished rock he sent with it.. I think that says a lot

 

[T L]

Do you have the vendor photo so we can all share in your happiness?

 

[Souled In]

for shizzle..

so um, we really like this, looks like the ocean, grey or bright at times, and def has some color changing

you can see the inclusion, which saved us over a grand i bet, and it turns a little white at an angle or two, but to us it just makes it more unique

 

[T L]

Date: 6/19/2010 9:37:04 PM
Author: Souled In
for shizzle..


so um, we really like this, looks like the ocean, grey or bright at times, and def has some color changing


you can see the inclusion, which saved us over a grand i bet, and it turns a little white at an angle or two, but to us it just makes it more unique

Well, it definitely doesn''t look like the color that they''re typically treating sapphires to. It has very nice cutting, and I hope you make a nice piece of jewelry out of it. Thanks for sharing the photo.

 

[Souled In]

will follow up with a pic in the setting, talk soon

 

[iLander]

Beautiful stone! Very unique cut! A+!

 

[GliderPoss]

Ohh very pretty! I love unusual colour/cut sapphires. Can''t wait to see it in its setting.

 

[virgoruby]

Your sapphire is very unique & beautiful. I''m really liking Uli''s faceting styles & would love to own one of his creations sometime soon.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/20/2010 7:17:21 AM
Author: virgoruby
Your sapphire is very unique & beautiful. I''m really liking Uli''s faceting styles & would love to own one of his creations sometime soon.

I have two of his stones, and I think his cutting is unique and really beautiful. The cutlets are like deadly weapons though. LOL! In all seriousness, if you are really into precision cut gems, his pieces are very nice, especially for what he charges.

 

[virgoruby]

Date: 6/20/2010 9:49:01 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/20/2010 7:17:21 AM

Author: virgoruby

Your sapphire is very unique & beautiful. I''m really liking Uli''s faceting styles & would love to own one of his creations sometime soon.

I have two of his stones, and I think his cutting is unique and really beautiful. The cutlets are like deadly weapons though. LOL! In all seriousness, if you are really into precision cut gems, his pieces are very nice, especially for what he charges.

TL, How can I forget your intense orange fire opal and a beautiful (but humongous) rose quartz!
I was just browsing Osirisgems'' website & thought I found the stone that I liked - neon-pink rhodolite - but then I also found out that it''s 0.90ct, which is a tad too small for my liking..

Souled In, I would love to see more pics of your lovely Songea sapphire.

 

[chrono]

Uli seems like a very honest and reputable vendor from what I have read. His explanation is also true; not all sapphires are heated and under high magnification, you should be able to see unaffected rutile needles if the stone is unheated.

 

[BWise]

Date: 6/19/2010 7:58:48 PM
Author:Souled In
So I got this beautiful blue-green songea sapphire that looks like a part of the ocean from Uli Zeisberg at Osirisgems. We both love it.

I just want to know if and how it is treated.

What Uli said in a very kind letter he sent with the gem that we are considering framing:

If you have the mikroscope try to find the rutile/sagenite crystals. You will need a magnifications of at least 50x. The naked eye has no change (chance I think) to detect it. I love the structures cause it''s the indicator for untreated sapphires. Heattreating would destroy the rutile (TIO2) and let the titanium diffuse in the surroundings. Also the colorchange effect would be killed.
Today it''s hard to get untreated sapphires but I have a source from Idar-Oberstein, Germany for the natural sapphires from Songea, Tanzania.

Osiris has good feedback.. 100% in fact, and he seems to know a lot.


Now, I took it to Tom at the jewelry store where I got my setting, and he is great, but he said all sapphires are treated. He said otherwise they would look rough, but I thought that was just solved with polishing like a rock tumbler does. Furthermore, let''s say that this definitely wasn''t heat treated based on what Uli is saying, could it still have been ''pressurized,'' or something? Too bad Tom only has a 30X microscope.

It cost 453 for the 1.47 ct, but it has a small inclusion, which we don''t mind. This is why I think it didn''t go for 2000. The picture you have seen before I''m sure. It has came up in a couple different threads.

I really don''t care. I just want to know what is right and what is wrong.

I am sure Tom is a very nice guy, but I wouldn''t expect a jewelry store man to have the same level of knowledge on color stones like the cutters do. From the terms he used, I don''t think Tom knows a lot about untreated sapphire. On the contrary, Uli sounds very knowledgeable.

I bought my blue sapphire as untreated and took it to a highly respected independant appraiser. He said from the the needles he could see, it is very likely that my sapphire was not treated but it could also be very gently heated. The only way to know for sure is to send it to a qualified lab like the AGTA. I didn''t go there because I don''t care about gentle heating at all, and I don''t plan to sell my sapphire.

BTW, your sapphire looks unique and pretty - enjoy it!

 

[packrat]

I love the cut and color-I''m dying to see this set!

 

[Arkteia]

I have no doubt that it is unheated and untreated since Uli says so.
I have only one problem with osirisgems, and it is the color of the pictures. You know, I was eyeing this sapphire for a while, even asked here what was Songea sapphire. And then decided against it just because the color looked sort of washed out. Now I find out it is so good that you want to get it framed... It may be me (I do not like aquamarines either so if this color is similar to aquas it is just not my color). But from what you are saying I have a strong feeling that the color is simply wonderful.
I wonder if certain cuts can alter one's perception of color.
I'll be waiting for your photograph - I really want to see how it looks IRL.

 

[colorluvr]

Date: 6/21/2010 12:38:25 PM
Author: packrat
I love the cut and color-I''m dying to see this set!

Me too!

 

[T L]

Date: 6/21/2010 6:31:09 PM
Author: crasru
I have no doubt that it is unheated and untreated since Uli says so.

I have only one problem with osirisgems, and it is the color of the pictures. You know, I was eyeing this sapphire for a while, even asked here what was Songea sapphire. And then decided against it just because the color looked sort of washed out. Now I find out it is so good that you want to get it framed... It may be me (I do not like aquamarines either so if this color is similar to aquas it is just not my color). But from what you are saying I have a strong feeling that the color is simply wonderful.

I wonder if certain cuts can alter one''s perception of color.

I''ll be waiting for your photograph - I really want to see how it looks IRL.

Why don''t you like the color of his photos Crasru? I have two gems from Uli, and the photos are probably some of the most accurate vendor photos I have had experience with.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 6/21/2010 7:29:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/21/2010 6:31:09 PM
Author: crasru
I have no doubt that it is unheated and untreated since Uli says so.

I have only one problem with osirisgems, and it is the color of the pictures. You know, I was eyeing this sapphire for a while, even asked here what was Songea sapphire. And then decided against it just because the color looked sort of washed out. Now I find out it is so good that you want to get it framed... It may be me (I do not like aquamarines either so if this color is similar to aquas it is just not my color). But from what you are saying I have a strong feeling that the color is simply wonderful.

I wonder if certain cuts can alter one''s perception of color.

I''ll be waiting for your photograph - I really want to see how it looks IRL.

Why don''t you like the color of his photos Crasru? I have two gems from Uli, and the photos are probably some of the most accurate vendor photos I have had experience with.

In this photo, the secondary is quite grey. The background is grey, too, and I wonder if it makes the stone look so grey-ish.

The stones I bought look mich lighter. Mind you, I am not saying I do not like them, in my last posting I even mentioned buying more if these ones are successfully bezeled. I just wonder if the background of the photos is not most suitable to bring out the true colors.

(Yes, I am frustrated! I wanted to buy this sapphire, and decided not to! And now someone says the color is lovely! And I have missed it!).

 

[pocadot]

Date: 6/19/2010 9:37:04 PM
Author: Souled In
for shizzle..


so um, we really like this, looks like the ocean, grey or bright at times, and def has some color changing


you can see the inclusion, which saved us over a grand i bet, and it turns a little white at an angle or two, but to us it just makes it more unique

Souled In, I''m very happy you''re giving this stone a good home! I love the color play in it and would love to see a songea in person one day. I imagined that it would look like the ocean just as you said! It was seeing your stone on the osirisgems website that got me wanting one too.

Please post pics when you have it set so I can live vicariously through you. Thanks.

 

[Mearthman]

I know this a late addition to this story but had to reply when I came across it. I also purchased a Songea sapphire from Uli, and it is what he states, an untreated gemstone. Uli is one of the best cutters I know, and truly an honest dealer. His gems are top-end, his cuts are very unique, and always at a fair price. I been buying from him for several years and have never been dissapointed. With most of the gem market filled with treated gemstomes in one way or another - if Uli states its untreated I believe him. Untreated gemstomes are getting harder to find - you have a treasure. By the way I was very interested in the sapphire in this story but let it slip away - I'm glad it found a good home.

 

[Pandora II]

Rutile inclusions are NOT an indication of no heat treatment.

Sapphires are commonly heat-treated to improve colour at 1100 degrees C which is well below the melting point for rutile.

I saw microphoto examples of this at a recent lecture by Christopher P. Smith the President of AGL who I would consider a very reliable source.

 

[movie zombie]

you purchased a lovely color stone....and i'm guessing that while tom is a nice guy, he like most other jewelers, knows zilch re color stones.

MoZo

 

[JewelFreak]

I looked at that sapphire too. Seems you have quite a following here! Pics would be great to see. The cut as usual w/Ulli is special & skilled.

--- Laurie

 

[T L]

if Uli states its untreated I believe him.

As much as I like Uli, and many vendors I deal with, I never trust a person's "word for it." The problem is that a dealer can be duped by their supplier, and so verification by a reputable lab is very important, especially with stones you cannot verify yourself with tell tale inclusions.

 

[jstarfireb]

That's really pretty! I have a similar colored Songea sapphire from Uli, but it's a liquid flower cut. I love the color (and like you, I used the exact same description, "like the ocean"). It does have a lot of grey, but I don't mind that. It's so interesting and different from the norm. I set it in rose gold to bring out the green...

 

[packrat]

I loved that sapph..I wish he'd come back w/pics! So pretty.

 

[Richard M.]

I really don''t care. I just want to know what is right and what is wrong.

There's enormous public confusion about Songea sapphires because selected stones from that location are frequently Be-diffused into orange, yellow, some reddish and Pad hues. That leads to the widespread impression that all Songea stones are heated/diffused, which is absolutely untrue. I have many fine untreated sapphires from that location that face up as particolors and sometimes as color-changers. All are very strongly dichroic, somewhat like Australian sapphires. Others resemble pale blue-green Montana sapphires. I even had some heat-treated as an experiment some years back and there was absolutely no change or improvement.

As an aside, many retail jewelers tell customers all uncerted sapphires are heated because there's an assumption they probably have been. It's a way of giving themselves protection from liability when they personally lack the gemological skills to know for certain. I'd also bet heavily that not more than one in 100 retail jewelers have even heard of Songea sapphires, much less have the knowledge to evaluate or identify them.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)