OEC ring Impulse Buy Tragedy......Old Miner, Richard.& other diamond lovers..opinions needed!

[iluvdiamond]

If you can help, I will be very grateful. I feel so lost...Original post: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/european-cut-ring-help-impulse-buy.66545/

Now, I finally receive the OEC ring. It's very beautiful......even more pretty in real life than in picture, but I notice that there is a little chip on the table that wasn't mention on the auction. It's noticible if I take a closer look at the diamond & I can feel it too. I also notice that there is a thin barely visible white line that runs from the chip to the middle of the table. I don't know much about diamond so I took the ring to a jewelery store & have the on-site gemologist take a look for me to see if it's really a chip. He told me that there is a chip & he also said that there is a lot of wear on the edges of the diamond. (although it's not visible to the eyes). Is it normal with older antique diamond to have chip or wear on the edges of the table of the diamond? The gemologist also told me that the white thin line is actually a knott. (not sure if I spell it right) & he told me that it's natural in some diamond. What is a knott? Now, I feel mad because the seller did not disclosed the chip in his auction.

The ring come with the insurance appraisal from the seller & the "retail repalcement value" was $13,750 US. Do you think the seller already lower the value of the ring because of the chip? I pay $4400 US for this ring. Plus, I pay another $300 for custom & duties.

Did I get a deal or do you think I have been ripped off? The seller do offer 7 days return policy. I honestly love the ring & the chip is not too big of a deal as I can't see it unless I look closer to the diamond. But it's still a flaw & I didn't know about it until I get the ring. Will the chip eventually lead to crack??

Now, what am I going to do? I haven't bring the ring in for an appraisal yet as I am still trying to find one in my area that specialize in antique diamond. (Sigh). I am not sure if I should waste more money on this ring .......In the auction, this ring is supposed to be VS2 & F color. Now, with the chip, will the value & the clarity be dramatically decrease?? I am scared to do another appraisal because I am worry about the outcome. Any advice will be great. Is $4400 US a good deal for the OEC ring with a chip? Many thanks!

 

[MaryAlaina]

A chip would make me nervous AND it should have been included in the item description. I''m assuming this is the auction? If I were you, I would call them tomorrow and arrange a return!

 

[iluvdiamond]

MaryAlaina: I bought it from ebay!

 

[surfgirl]

Okay, deeeeeeeeeep breathessss! First of all, can you take some photos and post them so we can see what you''re looking at? Can you see the chip with the naked eye? Is it on a junction or on a flat surface and where on the stone is it located? Are you sure the "line" running from the chip isn''t a crack or fissure? I dont even know if such a thing is possible but someone will weigh in in the morning and tell you. I''d call the seller in the morning and tell them that you''re not happy because of the chip and line and you need more time to have it appraised...see if they say okay. The thing is, slight chips and wear are sort of a badge of honor with old cuts - it makes appraisers feel like it''s more of a sure thing that they''re really old and not fake new cuts, if that makes sense. When I got my ring appraised by two different appraisers, they both said that chipping makes it more certain that it''s actually an old stone. And my trusted appraiser said he likes it when he sees light chips on old cuts, it makes him feel better saying "yes, it''s really an old cut." So get some sleep and tackle this in the morning. And take photos! Does it shimmer and sparkle alot? Does it have great fire bursts coming off the stone?

 

[iluvdiamond]

Surfgirl: your post makes me feel sooooo much better. especially when you say "it makes appraisers feel like it's more of a sure thing that they're really old and not fake new cuts "

Thanks~~~

I can see the chip with my naked eyes, but I have to look closely at it first. The chip is located at the edge of the table close to one of the corner (I hope I make sense here) I am not sure if it's a large chip or a small chip as I don't have much experience with diamond. I hope the line running from the chip is not a crack. (I haven't seen a crack in real life before though), but if it's a crack, the gemologist should have told me already. Do you mind having chips in your antique rings? I guess it's a special characteristic of an old diamond. But I think it's hard to find an old diamond that is perfect these days though. I will try to post pictures tomorrow. The ring shimmers a lot in all kind of lightings....even dim lights & I love the look...it does gives off little flakes of color when I move my hands. It's much prettier in real life than in picture.

..but the chip.

 

[chrono]

Small chips and some facet wear is normal and expected in old cut stones. That said, there are some that DON"T have small chips and you don''t have to settle for it if you don''t want any chips. It''s up to your comfort level and how much it will bother you.

Since the stone has such a noticeable chip, the clarity grading should fall from VS2 to SI1/2 and sold as such. If you paid a VS2 price but you still love it, talk to the seller about perhaps getting a small discount so that you don''t have to return the stone and go through the customs again.

 

[Lorelei]

I think if it was me, if I in any way loved the diamond and wanted to keep it, I think it would be well worth another 100$ or so in the scheme of things to have a skilled appraiser who is knowledgeable with old diamonds take a look. It looks really lovely in the link!

 

[overthemoon]

A chip on the table would bug me for sure, especially if you can feel it. What worries me more is the white line - DEFINITELY take it to an appriaser, preferably one who is familiar with old cuts. The little bit of extra $ will be worth it. If it wasn''t included in the auction description, you may have some recourse if a certified appraiser tells you it is at risk for further significant damage and/or appraises for waaaay lower than you paid for it...

I agree - a little wear is an ok thing with old stones. But, from your description, it sounds like your stone has more than just a little wear. My OMC came with some wear around the girdle, including a tiny chip. I went through my fair share of obsessing about it, and didn''t feel better until I sought the advice of expert Dave Atlas (which was a third appriasal, BTW - first came from the seller which I considered basically useless, second was from the jeweler who set the stone in my new setting). My gut says to call Dave Atlas and ask for a) possible references in your area - you never know... and/or b) whether it would be possible to insure & ship it to him in Philly for appriasal.

Good luck! Please keep us posted

 

[Stone Hunter]

Oh I hope you can resolve this. The ring looks just lovely!

 

[Vix]

I''m sorry to hear this, and I agree about trying to get the seller to agree to extra time so you can get it appraised.

Not to scare you, but I had a small chip on the table of my modest old cut that (a year later) turned into a CHIP...I must have knocked it lightly. [It was at the table/crown junction, what a talent I have.] I found it really affected performance -- which the smaller chip hadn''t. I lived with it for six months, but missed my *fire*...so right now my much-less-expensive-than-yours ring is getting a new-to-me old cut put in.

Best of luck -- it is a lovely-looking stone and setting.

 

[ericad]

I just purchased an OMC with a very small chip in the girdle that extends ever so slightly up onto the table (barely). Per the appraiser, it can easily be polished out. She assigned my stone a VS1 grade because she had to ding it for the chip. If not for the chip, it would have been a VVS1 stone. So it''s possible that the clarity rating of your stone is correct and includes accounting for the chip, although the white line (knot) makes me wonder if a VS clarity grade is too generous?

She also said that often, old diamonds, when magnified, look like little mice chewed up the edges - lots of tiny chips. My diamond had previously been set in a bezel, which is probably why the rest of the edge was in such good condition. But chips in old diamonds are not unusual.

The point is, the seller should have listed the chip in his description, but if you love it and an appraiser can correctly identify the white line as not being a crack/fracture or something else like that, and you can polish out the chip, then keep it and enjoy the extra character the small scar gives to your very old diamond. Of course, do shop around and make sure the price you are paying is a good deal for what you got.

 

[chrono]

Date: 8/8/2007 10:20:33 AM
Author: Vix
I''m sorry to hear this, and I agree about trying to get the seller to agree to extra time so you can get it appraised.

Not to scare you, but I had a small chip on the table of my modest old cut that (a year later) turned into a CHIP...I must have knocked it lightly. [It was at the table/crown junction, what a talent I have.] I found it really affected performance -- which the smaller chip hadn''t. I lived with it for six months, but missed my *fire*...so right now my much-less-expensive-than-yours ring is getting a new-to-me old cut put in.

Best of luck -- it is a lovely-looking stone and setting.

Vix,
Is the damaged OEC the one in your avatar, the one you purchased from the local guy?

 

[Vix]

Chrono --

Yep. New one's from the same guy, still our area's go-to person. [Though it's not a OEC but a European Cut, which I just found "PS's" Richard Sherwood describing on an old thread as having larger tables, lower crowns, medium to large culets compared to an OEC -- that may explain some of the numbers issues 'round here.] *

I admit I'm someone who wears her ring everywhere but around heavy chemicals or major gardening...camping, hiking, exercise class. So I'm gonna try to be a bit more careful, but I do think it was mostly bad luck that I struck the original chip at a really weak spot.

Well, the new stone (another Euro Cut) is def cleaner than my old one. I picked it over a very nice OEC because I couldn't resist the extra fire; wish I'd had my camera there!

Sorry for the hijack!

* https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/european-cut-diamond.3875/

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 8/8/2007 2:39:15 AM
Author: iluvdiamond
Surfgirl: your post makes me feel sooooo much better. especially when you say ''it makes appraisers feel like it''s more of a sure thing that they''re really old and not fake new cuts ''

Thanks~~~

I can see the chip with my naked eyes, but I have to look closely at it first. The chip is located at the edge of the table close to one of the corner (I hope I make sense here) I am not sure if it''s a large chip or a small chip as I don''t have much experience with diamond. I hope the line running from the chip is not a crack. (I haven''t seen a crack in real life before though), but if it''s a crack, the gemologist should have told me already. Do you mind having chips in your antique rings? I guess it''s a special characteristic of an old diamond. But I think it''s hard to find an old diamond that is perfect these days though. I will try to post pictures tomorrow. The ring shimmers a lot in all kind of lightings....even dim lights & I love the look...it does gives off little flakes of color when I move my hands. It''s much prettier in real life than in picture.

..but the chip.

Hey...You''ve got alot of good thoughts on this thread...Do I mind the chips on my stone? Well, I''d prefer they weren''t there but they add character to my stone and dont affect its performance, and you cannot see the chips with your naked eye so I''ve gotten used to it. I wear that side inward so I have less chance of whacking it on something. But then again, I''ve learned quickly to be more careful of where my hands are and how I grab things with my ring on. It''s like having a built in warning system: WARNING WARNING ROUGH BRICK WALL AHEAD! PUT RING HAND BEHIND BACK WHILE GOING THROUGH ROUGH AREAS! It''s like automatic

Anyway, call Dave Atlas and see if he can recommend someone to see in your area.

 

[oldminer]

When one gets a re Grading Report from a major lab it is always on an unset diamond. The clarity assigned to a diamond will always be "as-is" and sometimes a mention may be made that the stone has a higher potential clarity with some recut or repair cutting work. HOWEVER, when one goes to an appraiser to find out the VALUE, the clarity of the diamond as it is may not be as important to the REPLACEMENT VALUE as the grade it would be if only slightly repaired.

Many old cuts have facet junction or facet surface abrasions which could easily be removed with little to no weight loss. Some old stones might have a chip or two that could readily be removed without any major recutting or symmetry damage. While it is proper to mention the existing condition of the diamond, it is also proper to provide the correct VALUE. This vale may well come form a slight projection, or forecast, of the value as if it was repaired. If you lost a diamond that was VS1 internally, but a bit abraded at present, you would probably only accept or be offered a diamond that was not in need of any repairs. You would not want to take a VS2 or SI1 in place of the old stone since its inherent clarity was somewhat better with only minor repairs standing in the way.

I know not every appraiser will agree to this, but I feel strongly that this is a correct practice. Since I teach this subject matter, I know many appraisers do follow this common sense strategy, but I am well aware of others who give the poorest grade to each diamond unless the actual repairs are done. This serves to sell repair work sometimes. Sometimes it is done to protect the appraiser's ego and display their knowledge.

The strategy I have suggested works for insurance replacement evaluations, but it would be improper to use this sort of prospective clarity grading strategy in an appraisal for resale in something like an auction. Then the buyer doesn't get what they paid for. This is specifically why appraisers are required to limit the use of their reports to clearly defined purposes. There are times when disclosure of present clarity outweighs prospective clarity and times when it does not. I always mention the present condition of a diamond's clarity, but may choose, for reasons explained above, to provide a clarity grade based on slight repolishing/recutting when the purpose is to obtain correct insurance coverage.

Buying from auction sites is "risky". Once you choose to accept the risk, then it is just your fault when you find you have not gotten exactly what was represented. Caveat Emptor is the byword of risk taking. Accept the risk and go forward. Be more careful to avoid problems.

 

[iluvdiamond]

I''ve brought the stone in & have another appraiser look at the stone. The appraiser told me that the thin white line is an inclusion. Then, why did the other gemologist told me that it''s a knot then??

I am so confused! I have attached a picture the seller''s appraisal & the new appraisal. I also take some close picture of the stone & I can''t believe my camera can actually capture the flaws on camera!!!! What do you guys think?

 

[iluvdiamond]

The line...Is it an inclusion or a knot?

 

[iluvdiamond]

This is the chip. The appraisal didn't even mention about the chip until I ask him if there are any.

Then, he takes another closer look at the ring under the microscope. Then, he said, "Oh yeah..there is a very very small chip." He said that he didn't lower the clarity of the stone because of the chip. He assured that the stone is definitely SI. The chip looks obvious in the picture though. Is it too big? The chip doesn't show up on the above picture though

 

[iluvdiamond]

This pictures show the chunky facets. I was also told that there is a big chip in the girdle on one of the smaller stone.

 

[kathleenmv]

I''m definitely no expert, but I just wanted to say that I love the setting and the stone!

If I''m understanding the appraisal correctly, the chip is small and shouldn''t impact the stone''s durability. Am I getting that right? And, to my eyes, that line does look like an inclusion. I have a very similar inclusion in a RB (almost the same placement), and it doesn''t bother me. Of course, you have to be cool with it and be comfy with that chip.

Anyway...just wanted to chime in to say how pretty the ring is.

Best of luck in your decision!

 

[iluvdiamond]

Chrono: I pay only 1/3 of the insurance replacement value though. I will try to talk to seller to see if I can get a discount, but I doubt it though as the seller will probably just offer me a refund.

Lorelei: The independent appraiser that I have found is recommended to me by a jewelery store as one of the best in the country, but he overlooked the chip in the appraisal.

Vix: The ring in your avatar looks beautiful. It's soooo colorful!

Rough Rock: I will definitely send the ring to Dave if I live in US. I pay almost $300 Cdn on custom & duties for receiving the ring from the US...so I don't want to send the ring out to the States & then....pay another $300 Cdn for duties again.

Dave: Thanks for your advice!! I have learned my lesson & I will never buy from Ebay again.

Too big of a risk & I don't have money to take risk like this.

Kathy: Can you see the line with your naked eyes too? (with your RB) According to the appraiser, he said that the chip is very very small, but since the chip is @ where the line (inclusion) is....he told me to be careful & not to hit the ring against hard objects.

 

[iluvdiamond]

I have also attached a picture of the ring beside my Tiffany cross that is supposed to be G/H color (Same color as the stone in the ring) & VS 1/2 (while my ring is SI 2). Why is the Tiffany cross appear to be much whiter even though they are the same color?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/9/2007 12:21:33 AM
Author: iluvdiamond
The line...Is it an inclusion or a knot?

A knot is a type of inclusion.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/9/2007 1:12:50 AM
Author: iluvdiamond
I have also attached a picture of the ring beside my Tiffany cross that is supposed to be G/H color (Same color as the stone in the ring) & VS 1/2 (while my ring is SI 2). Why is the Tiffany cross appear to be much whiter even though they are the same color?

A very small RB is going to show less color face up than a larger stone especially a OEC.
Remember that the color grade is the color of the material not the face up color(in the d-z range) and is graded under very specific lighting and conditions.
Light brown melee is often used in low cost jewelery and it appears fairly white enough so that a lot of people don't mind it, where a light brown 1ct is easily told apart from a white diamond from a distance.
Grading color from photos is impossible even side by side.

 

[strmrdr]

btw the chip doesnt look connected to me to the inclusion going by the photos the inlcusion is deeper in the stone.

 

[wolftress]

Date: 8/9/2007 1:12:50 AM
Author: iluvdiamond
I have also attached a picture of the ring beside my Tiffany cross that is supposed to be G/H color (Same color as the stone in the ring) & VS 1/2 (while my ring is SI 2). Why is the Tiffany cross appear to be much whiter even though they are the same color?

The diamonds in your Tiffany cross are modern round brilliants which reflect a lot more ''white light'' than old cut diamonds, which were cut to maximise fire, not brilliance. Putting a modern round brilliant next to an old cut diamond isn''t a good way to judge colour because the cut is so different.

That said, I think your ring is beautiful

I LOVE the centre stone and the rainbow facets. I would definitely invest a little (but not a whole lot) more money into polishing out the chip if it bothers you. Well-cut OECs are becoming a rarity and I think you have a one-of-a-kind piece in your hot little hand

 

[Vix]

The color and faceting of that stone are lovely -- but then I like warmer-toned vintage pieces! Seems like structurally you're in good shape too -- will let the experts confirm. Can you even see the inclusion without this sort of massive magnification? I'd think the cut would hide it.

 

[kathleenmv]

Hi iluvdiamond! Sorry for the tardy reply.

My inclusion can only be seen in certain lights at certain angles, and only when studied pretty closely. Hope that helps!

Again, it''s a lovely, lovely ring, but I understand being unsure and less than thrilled that you didn''t receive what you thought you were buying.

Let us know what you decide!

 

[iluvdiamond]

Thanks everyone for your help! I still have 2 days to decide whether or not I should keep it. Part of me tells me that I should keep it because it''s an antique diamond & it becomes rare now. It also has a different look than modern diamond as well, but of course, it''s not as sparkly (more dull) than the modern diamond. Then, part of me tells me to return it & use that $4500 US towards something even bigger & nicer in the jewelery store. Like a RB 1.5 Ct ring.

What do you guys think?

Strmrdr: The inclusion is actaully on the surface & can be seen with the naked eyes.

Wolftress: I guess I shouldn''t compare the RB & the Old cut side by side. Thanks! I don''t have any other old cuts diamond to compare with...

Vix: I can see the inclusion clearly if I look closely at the stone as it''s sitting on the surface, but you are right, the cut does hide it plus, the inclusion is white in color, but very light though. I am just glad that there is no dark carbon matter inside the stone.

Kathleenmv: Yes, I am less thrill because I feel like I was being lie to. Plus, if the seller lists the ring as G/H & SI2 quality instead of F & VS2...the price won''t go up so high! Well, I have learned my lesson now. I won''t buy anything jewelery on ebay anymore.

 

[gwendolyn]

I think I would return it. Being able to see the inclusion would drive me batty and make me feel resentful when I looked at it that I felt like I got duped since I wasn''t told in advance about that, and I wouldn''t want to have spent that kind of money on something that didn''t make me as happy as I was expecting.