Not asking father for blessing ....is this OK??

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Hi, I don''t plan on asking my Girlf''s father for permission to ask for her hand in marriage...

For me, this is a wierd one cause I am very traditional but sorta want to leave this part out......

I get on well with her parents, and would easily be able to ask, and have no doubt he would approve - BUT, I figure that, being in our late 20''s, she is old enough to make the decision for herself.....

I think she would like me to ask her father - but I just really want to do this my way.......

I''m not sure why I feel this way - I guess I feel that this should be OUR decision, and not anyone else''s to have a hold over..like this is the start of our life together as a married couple and I want the decision on how/when to be OURS.....does that make sense??

do people think this is OK? Or should I ask anyway?

Ideas on whether this is acceptable - especially from the ladies out there!

DJQ

 

[CrookedRock]

As a girl who didn''t want my FI to ask anyone, I really appreciate that he respected that bc he is traditional. I completely understand where you are coming from, but if she has vocalized that she would like you to do that, then I kinda think you should. Probably not the answer you were looking for...
You would hate to regret it later when she tells you she wishes you would have. And it really can''t hurt you in the long run to do it, meaning I don''t think that you would regret it.

 

[BriBee]

If she''d like you to do it, then you should. You don''t have to think of it as asking for permission, you could make the conversation more about informing her father of your plans rather than technically asking his permission. You could meet with him and tell him how much you love his daughter and let him know that you plan on proposing and then say something like "I hope this brings as much joy to you as it will for us" or something along those lines.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 6/30/2008 6:55:45 PM
Author:Diamond Joe Quimby
Hi, I don''t plan on asking my Girlf''s father for permission to ask for her hand in marriage...


For me, this is a wierd one cause I am very traditional but sorta want to leave this part out......


I get on well with her parents, and would easily be able to ask, and have no doubt he would approve - BUT, I figure that, being in our late 20''s, she is old enough to make the decision for herself.....


I think she would like me to ask her father - but I just really want to do this my way.......


I''m not sure why I feel this way - I guess I feel that this should be OUR decision, and not anyone else''s to have a hold over..like this is the start of our life together as a married couple and I want the decision on how/when to be OURS.....does that make sense??


do people think this is OK? Or should I ask anyway?


Ideas on whether this is acceptable - especially from the ladies out there!


DJQ

If you aren''t sure if it''s important to her or not, I''d sit down and talk with her about it. Ask her what she wants, and tell her your views. Maybe it''s not important to her, so you could be stressing for nothing. If it is, I think it''s something you should figure out a compromise with. Not just say "tough, I''m not doing it" or "I hate the idea, but if you insist..." I think there is some middle ground to work with.

 

[meresal]

If she wants you to, then there shouldn''t be a question.

Age shouldn''t be a factor, even if this is her first marriage. It''s want she would want. My 38 yr old sister just got remarried after being divorced for over 7 yrs, and her new husband still asked for my dad blessing. (ie, he called while sitting at the dinner table right before proposing, but still gave my dad the heads up) Our family is very close, and this is just how we all tend to want it. I think that if she told you she wanted it, then it could cause some issues if you ignored those requests.

 

[blondebunny]

I personally feel that it is up to whatever she wants or what ya''ll agree on. I told my FF that I would prefer him NOT to call my dad to ask, only because my dad is crazy and would try to talk my FF out of it (not bcuz he doesnt love him-bcuz he does-but because he doesnt think we should get married till we are 40, and we never had a close relationship, so itd be ackward hahaha)..but I told him to just call my mom(she loves that stuff) and my stepdad(he was more of a father to me than my real dad-ya its sad )..But I mean i also feel that when you are out of college, and of a decent age in the 20s its silly to ask bcuz you are grown up and mature and should be living on your own. I personally dont let my parents make any decisions for me since I moved out when I was 18 because I was an adult. Goodluck on whatever you choose to do though!

 

[Blair138]

If your GF wants you to but you do not want to "ask" her dad, then maybe I would sit down with him and let him know that you are planning on asking her. Respect her wishes but you don''t have to ''ask''. I wanted my now FI to ask my dad so he called him up and told him the plan. I was happy with that and so was my dad. Good luck!

 

[miraclesrule]

My advice would be to listen to your GF because she probably knows that although it isn''t necessary to get her father''s "approval", the gesture of asking for her father''s blessing is a sign of respect to your future father-in-law. I imagine that your FFIL would view it as a mature sign of respect as well.

If you don''t do it, it could be perceived as a sign of disrespect which is probably not what you would want your FFIL to feel about her daughter''s future husband. It doesn''t seem like such a sacrifice, so I guess I don''t understand your reluctance to do so.

Right or Wrong, parents do like to feel that some traditions are important, especially one that doesn''t compromise values. I assume that you do value receiving your FFIL''s blessing and respect, is that correct? If not, why not?

 

[customcushion]

Hmmmm. Interesting question.

I asked my partner to marry me on Thursday, and I debated asking her parents, or telling them, first. I decided against it.

In the end, it feels odd to ask someone else for permission to spend your life with an adult. BUT if it feels odd to your partner NOT to ask her dad, I''d probably do it to make her feel better and more comfortable. I wouldn''t ask him, but I''d tell him my intentions.

I agree, my preference was to let Sarah know first, before I told anyone else, that I wanted to marry her. Turns out that''s what she wanted to. In the end, that''s what was important to me.

 

[gwendolyn]

The way I see it, it''s really just a formality anyway. I mean, if you''re in a relationship with someone and talk to your parents ever, I would think it would naturally come up in conversation that you''re planning to marry that person. J almost NEVER talks to his parents (like to an almost absurd degree and they work/live together) and he''s still mentioned a few times that the plan is for us to spend our lives together. I''ve had the same conversation with my parents--they''ve known we''ve been talking about marriage since J and I started talking about marriage (over a year ago).

So, yeah, I guess if it''s important to someone to "officially" proclaim the intention to marry (preferably without asking ''permission'' because then it seems to me like the woman has no say in her own future) then do what works for you (always the moral of the story

), but I don''t think it''s disrespectful if you choose to get engaged without doing so if you''re an adult. If your parents know what''s going on in your lives, then that''s the key, not the presence of a formal declaration. In my opinion, anyway.

 

[Elmorton]

I agree, it''s just a formality. DH felt the same way you do - even though we were a bit younger, we still felt that it''s our decision to get married.

But, I''m very, very close with my dad (and my mom for that matter), and it was important to me that DH and my parents have some time together alone. Also, since I''m an only child, I think my dad would have been a little hurt if DH hadn''t made the gesture.

When it comes right down to it, I don''t think DH ever actually asked for a blessing, it was more along the lines of "I''d like you to know that I intend to ask your daughter to marry me" - but the sentiment of spending time with my parents was what mattered. My parents had a chance to talk to DH about marriage (and tell goofy stories about me) and I know that was something special for them.

If your fiancee-to-be wants you to talk to her parents, it''s probably for a good reason. Part of marriage is learning how to become one family, and if this is a tradition that her family values, I think it''s best to respect her wishes.

 

[swingirl]

If you are not comfortable with it, don''t do it. "Blessing" is so religious and "permission" is so 1800s. Maybe you are more comfortable with announcing your intent. You and your girlfriend can announce it together since at your age and maturity it is a mutual decision.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 7/1/2008 8:22:51 AM
Author: swingirl
If you are not comfortable with it, don''t do it. ''Blessing'' is so religious and ''permission'' is so 1800s. Maybe you are more comfortable with announcing your intent. You and your girlfriend can announce it together since at your age and maturity it is a mutual decision.

that''s more or less how I felt

 

[mountainman99]

I think it''s a good custom. You should probably take a nice specimen of livestock with you as well, so he doesn''t give her to someone with a better offer. Perhaps a goat... OK, enough sarcasm, but that''s the impression I get from this tradition. Back when women weren''t allowed to think for themselves and were treated more like slaves/property, men had to exchange goods for the permission to marry. Why we honor an awful custom like this is beyond me, but I do understand traditions. I do not plan on following this custom myself because the first person I want to know that I''m proposing is my girlfriend. Afterward, I think it will be great for us to tell our families together. One thing that bothers me is fathers that fully expect to be asked and almost seem to plan on being disappointed if they are not. I''ve read about this on some other forums, and I think it is ridiculous. If I''m ever a father and have a daughter, two things will matter to me more than anything, her safety and happiness, not whether or not some dude asks me for my permission. If I were asked, I''d definitely not treat him like an idiot though because I understand that people follow customs. Heck, most of us here follow the custom of giving diamond engagement rings, so it''s not that I''m against all customs. The bottom line is the decision is up to you. In my case, I really want her to be surprised first and foremost, and then I would like us to spread the news to others. I know that even if she would want me to ask her father, she will completely understand why I didn''t once I''ve proposed. Good luck!

This article suggests an approach that makes sense to me:
http://www.groomgroove.com/the_engagement/asking_for-hand_in_marriage.php

 

[dockman3]

This topic seems to be coming up a lot lately...

I plan on asking for my future FIL''s blessing, but not permission. Its just a way to show some respect to her parents and get things started on the right foot. If they are a more traditional family, they may feel slighted by you not talking to them and then you have problems from the get go. Just a simple conversation to let them know you are planning to ask her and that you wanted to let them know. That''s all. You''re going to do it anyway and just wanted to let them know. But I guess it really depends on her and her family and if they would be offended that you didn''t talk to them.

 

[Keepingthefaith21]

Under most other circumstances I would say to do whatever you are most comfortable with.

However, seeing as she has expressed that she would like you to ask, I really think you should consider her wishes. I do not expect my SO to ask for my father''s permission but I have made it very clear that I would like for my father to be "in the know". I personally feel that it is a respect issue with my parents especially because I am their only child. It''s an issue I feel very strongly about and would be very upset if I found out FFI did not at least mention his intentions to my father.

I will admit I am very much daddy''s little girl (despite my linear age) - so perhaps my opinion is askew as a result of that.

 

[katamari]

Like you and many of the other posters, I personally would find it offensive if my SO asked for a blessing or permission. I see it as our decision as financially independent adults.

But, if you think she will want you to communicate your intent to her family, then I am most in support of having the discussion of your intent to ask. She could want you to ask because of the tradition, but it could also be for practical reasons. For instance, if you are having a large wedding and her parents will be financing it, she might see it as a courtesy to have a communication with them to get them thinking about costs and saving. Or, she may have to make some transitions (like getting off insurance policies, trusts, etc.) and want you to get them thinking about that. If you aren't planning a surprise engagement, you could discuss this with her, too.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I plan it to be a surprise engagement totally and I don''t think she even has a clue I got hte ring - she often talks about ''when will it be'' type of thing and I always shrug it off.....



I have thought long and hard about the ‘do I ask fathers blessing/permission’ thing and have come to the conclusion that I am probably not going to….

Here are my reasons (please feel free to criticise or yell at me if you want):

My other half has (in conversations) said she would like me to talk to her dad – but I feel like she has said this because she has some sense of responsibility or that that’s how it is supposed to be – rather than a conscious decision by herself (does that make sense).

Don’t get me wrong, if she had any inclinations towards it being an essential then I would do it…

My main reason is that we have been through a lot to be together – we come from different sides of the world – literally 15,000 miles apart) - I had to give up life, family, friends, career to be with her. In turn she has since given up her family, career etc to move to another part of the world with me…We now live an international lifestyle and have enough frequent flier points to make Richard Branson jealous.

..this has caused obvious tensions between our families - not really tensions, and our parents get on great with each other and we get on great with both my parents and her parents. However, each sets of parents wants us to live just around the corner so that they can look after the grand-kids…….. (I mean, we literally live 25 hours flight from her parents at the moment….)

So there are lots of comments from parents on both sides about where we should live, have kids, work etc……

The problem is that we can see issues when we announce an engagement – ie. my parents will want to have an extravagant engagement party at their country estate (Australia), her parents will want us to visit their beahside home (England) to celebrate with them …….. do we have two parties?? – or one party in Antartica and make them all travel…… same with wedding (my parents will want us to have it near to them, in the church where I was raised, her parents likewise……). Get the idea……

Over the years we have decided that we have to do what WE want to do (when I had my 30th, for example, we went to Paris and there were no parents there)….. we just have to decide what we want and they parents have to live with it!! Otherwise we spend all out time arranging our lives around parents and what THEY think should happen!

Anyway…

We have sorta come to the conclusion that we need to do things our way because trying to keep everyone happy doesn’t work – we have sorta lost that sense of responsibility to our parents and have decided that, if we want to get married on the moon, then dammit we will!! I ever once told my girlfriends mum that if she wanted a certain type of wedding then I suggest she and her husband renew their vows, as then they can do what THEY want – because at our wedding we will be doing what WE want!!

I feel like if I say ‘hey, I’m gonna ask your daughter to marry me’ that it will start this whole ball rolling before I even pop the question…….

Make sense….?? Or am I being stupid?

I guess I feel like this is OUR decision, and we are going away to a great romantic destination and I feel like I want it to be just us, me asking, her saying yes (hopefully) and then a week together without any of that complication…….

And I also feel like this is an important step for us and sorta that it’s time for us to step up and make these future decisions together……..rather than with other people in mind – I know that when we announce and engagement the first question will be ‘WELL, WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET MARRIED, CAUSE AUNTY JOAN CAN’T TRAVEL IN HER STATE, BILL WILL WANT TO COME AND YOU SHOULD HAVE IT IN THE LOCAL CHURCH……PLUS ITS JUST TOO FAR…….. etc’

In the back of my mind I don’t want to be asking someone else for permission or blessing – because we have spent long enough trying to keep all the parents happy – its time for us to do it together and do what makes US happy!

I feel like this is the stepping stone for US, and that we should be responsible for it!

But then I’n not sure if I am being a complete idiot !??

Anyone who thinks I’m an idiot please say so!!

 

[JulieN]

You seem to be a little...hysterical in the last post.

While plenty of people have a wacko family, these complications that you have mentioned don't seem like they come from a wacko family. It's normal for each family to want to throw you a separate engagement party. It's normal that they want your wedding to be in their corner of the world, and for you (the couple) to live there. It's also normal for children to not do everything that their parents want.

Secondly, if you two are such independent, international jetsetters, I don't see why these situations of tangled people-pleasing should even be hypothetically problematic? JUST SAY NO.

Sorry to do some analysis, but, your usage of "we" in the last post often seems like it may be more correct to use "I."

As well, you thinking your GF wants you to ask out of duty/responsibility to her family is pretty valid IMO. It seems like she might not care either way, but her parents would care. To me, when dealing my parents, my general rule is to generally do what makes life easier...what can you stand, and can't stand?...choose your battles. This may be superficial, but is it "show how independent we are, cut the apron strings, put on your big boy britches" vs. "being humble towards her family?" (which is really just an ego thing.)

 

[gwendolyn]

Dude, I TOTALLY understand where you guys are coming from. I too am in an international relationship (US and England) and even though our families are physically closer than yours are (between Aus and England), we still can't be in two places at once, and both of our families want us to live/work/get married near them! It is a constant struggle which will never fully go away because your families will always want to be involved in your lives, and you will always (to some degree) feel the pull between the two, I think. It *IS* up to the two of you to find out what balance works for you.

That being said, I don't think that has to get the ball rolling in terms of sharing the news of your engagement. If you say, "I am planning on asking my lady to marry me" and their response is, "WHERE WILL IT BE?!" instead of "congratulations," merely say, "Once we are engaged, we will begin planning" and then wrap up the conversation and say goodbye. It's going to be an issue to tackle eventually, so it's not like you're avoiding the "OMG BUT WHERE WILL YOU GET MARRIED, WILL I BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO FLY THERE" etc. comments--they will come eventually. I can understand not wanting to deal with them, but you will, so using that as an excuse to not talk to the parents ahead of time just sounds like that--an excuse. If it's not important to either you or your girlfriend, that's fine, but saying you don't want to because you don't want to deal with the commentary on where it will happen sounds a bit lame if it *is* important to your girlfriend (I'm still unsure from what you've written if this is the case or not). You can shut them up easily and nicely enough by saying that the wedding planning happens *after* the proposal, not before.

Again, I personally feel like it's superfluous--nice if it's important to one of you, but certainly not necessary since you're both independent adults who are making your own choices, as well as making considerable sacrifices (ie living far away from family and friends) to be together. After all that, I get that it seems like taking a step back to ask parents if they think it's ok, because her parents might be thinking, "yeah, but you took my kid away from me! I want her to be happy but I want her to be happy and live near me still!" I know this is how my mother feels about my boyfriend--she loves him, and wants us to be happy together, but if she was asked for her personal opinion, she'd be liable to say that she'd approve most strongly if we moved around the corner from her, which then lays the guilt on nice and strong and isn't really a nice way to start the engagement news sharing process.

It's very complicated, having an international relationship, even when you're from two relatively similar countries. I feel for you, my friend. I hope, whatever you decide, that it works out for the best.

 

[meresal]

Date: 7/2/2008 10:19:26 PM
Author: Diamond Joe Quimby

My other half has (in conversations) said she would like me to talk to her dad – but I feel like she has said this because she has some sense of responsibility or that that’s how it is supposed to be – rather than a conscious decision by herself (does that make sense).

She has told you that she wants you to tell her dad. It doesn't matter what you "think" her reasoning for it is; It's what she wants. I also think a sense of responsibility/traditionalism(word??) are very valid reasons. Does she have a traditional family? If so, I think you could have a very bitter FFIL and FMIL on your hands if you don't tell him.

This is how I see it. You want it to be a surprise for everyone. However, this is her family, and she should have say in how you announce it to them. If you want it to be a surpirse with your family, then so be it. But it kind of seems like you're trying to control everything.

I'm sorry if that was harsh, I just don't understand why this is coming up, if this is what she has told you she wants?

ETA: I like Gwen's idea of just telling them that planning will come after the wedding... and then ending the conversation.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Thanks everyone for your comment (especially Gwen, meresel, Julie).

Sorry if my last post seemed ''hysterical'' - not really hysterical, was just trying to put my thoughts onto the page as best I could

Good to see everyone''s comments and suggestions - I guess my desire not to tell her dad/parents comes from this wierd sorta feeling that I want it to be something WE do - and I do mean we...

But I do see all of your valid points and that perhaps I should ... food for thought....

In either case, I have only about 4-5 days to decide..............

Thanks again all!

 

[Kaleigh]

I understand where you are coming from. But she has expressed that it would be nice if you did. I think a simple phone call would be nice. Puts the engagement on the right foot so to speak, but am of the old school myself. I have a daughter that is 20, and surely hope that when she is serious with a man, he will give us the respect and ask for our blessing, even if it''s just a formality. Doing the right thing goes a long way in the parent''s eyes... Put yourself in their place... Good luck!!!

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 7/3/2008 9:54:17 AM
Author: meresal

Date: 7/2/2008 10:19:26 PM

Author: Diamond Joe Quimby


My other half has (in conversations) said she would like me to talk to her dad – but I feel like she has said this because she has some sense of responsibility or that that’s how it is supposed to be – rather than a conscious decision by herself (does that make sense).

She has told you that she wants you to tell her dad. It doesn''t matter what you ''think'' her reasoning for it is; It''s what she wants. I also think a sense of responsibility/traditionalism(word??) are very valid reasons. Does she have a traditional family? If so, I think you could have a very bitter FFIL and FMIL on your hands if you don''t tell him.


This is how I see it. You want it to be a surprise for everyone. However, this is her family, and she should have say in how you announce it to them. If you want it to be a surpirse with your family, then so be it. But it kind of seems like you''re trying to control everything.


I''m sorry if that was harsh, I just don''t understand why this is coming up, if this is what she has told you she wants?


ETA: I like Gwen''s idea of just telling them that planning will come after the wedding... and then ending the conversation.

Although I understand the appeal for those who are traditionalists, I''d be SERIOUSLY disappointed in any parents who would be bitter over their daughter''s engagement instead of happy for her. It shouldn''t be expected (like gifts are never expected), but could be a nice gesture if they want to go that extra step.

I think it''s kind of awful that there might be people out there who would be looming and threatening and full of resentment if a couple decided not to "ask" for a blessing/permission/whatever in advance. When it comes down to it, the engagement is about THE COUPLE. No one else, just them. Is it nice to include the parents? For some, absolutely. But it rather angers me that the motivation to ask should come from a fear of bitterness and resentment--what an awful taste to accompany an engagement! Any parent who would react that way simply because they were not "asked" anything in advance has (in my opinion) a skewed sense of priorities.

 

[customcushion]

^ditto

 

[miraclesrule]

I''m just not getting this. Perhaps it''s me.
But nobody is expecting DJ to ask for "permission". At least that is how I am reading it.

His SO obviously respects the symbolic gesture of "manning up" and informing her father of his intention to marry his daughter and hopes that he gives them his blessing. READ: NOT PERMISSION. BUT THINK OF IT AS AN FYI. It seems that people are confusing the two, which are two separate things. Asking for permission...hell no. Informing and asking for blessing. Two totally different things.

I don''t see anything to get "freaked out" about unless the father reacted poorly. Is that the crux of your concerns DJ? What are your concerns? You and your GF have decided you want to marry. I can''t imagine most parents, even those with serious reservations about the marriage, to crucify you and shoot you down. You''ve already said that isn''t your concern.

It seems like a win-win. You are seen as a person who respect your FFIL and your soon to be FI. I still don''t get your hesitation. It is both of your decision and you''ve already made it. Yet you say that you want to do it "your" way...which excludes what your SO would like out of respect for the people who raised her. It''s almost like you are projecting a bad reaction from the father before he even has a chance to prove otherwise. In other words, you are sounding paranoid and a bit defensive. I sense you are just trying to avoid it for some reason and I haven''t figured it out yet.

I hope it isn''t a control issue. That wouldn''t be good. My advice...always better to be safe than sorry.

 

[princesss]

Date: 7/5/2008 1:14:30 AM
Author: miraclesrule
I''m just not getting this. Perhaps it''s me.

But nobody is expecting DJ to ask for ''permission''. At least that is how I am reading it.


His SO obviously respects the symbolic gesture of ''manning up'' and informing her father of his intention to marry his daughter and hopes that he gives them his blessing. READ: NOT PERMISSION. BUT THINK OF IT AS AN FYI. It seems that people are confusing the two, which are two separate things. Asking for permission...hell no. Informing and asking for blessing. Two totally different things.


I don''t see anything to get ''freaked out'' about unless the father reacted poorly. Is that the crux of your concerns DJ? What are your concerns? You and your GF have decided you want to marry. I can''t imagine most parents, even those with serious reservations about the marriage, to crucify you and shoot you down. You''ve already said that isn''t your concern.


It seems like a win-win. You are seen as a person who respect your FFIL and your soon to be FI. I still don''t get your hesitation. It is both of your decision and you''ve already made it. Yet you say that you want to do it ''your'' way...which excludes what your SO would like out of respect for the people who raised her. It''s almost like you are projecting a bad reaction from the father before he even has a chance to prove otherwise. In other words, you are sounding paranoid and a bit defensive. I sense you are just trying to avoid it for some reason and I haven''t figured it out yet.


I hope it isn''t a control issue. That wouldn''t be good. My advice...always better to be safe than sorry.

Ditto. She told you she wants it, and you''re planning on ignoring it because you don''t think her reason for asking for it is valid. Who are you to decide what she wants is valid? She wants it. It''s important.

Do you really want to have her be disappointed when she thinks about the proposal because something important to her and her family was skipped over because you didn''t think it was important, and you decided to make this about you and not about both of you?

 

[mystiqkal]

I''m not the most traditional person but I would like my BF to talk to my parents before he proposes. Its not about asking "permission" per se, it more about showing respect to your future family. I love my parents dearly and I know that if my bf didnt talk to my parents and get their "blessing" they would be very hurt. Even though i already know they love him to dealth and we''ve told them that we''re getting married, its really just a formailty. If he didnt do it, it would make them feel like he had disregard for my father as head of the family. I want him to do it because i know how much it would mean to my father and its not like doing this changes it from being your decision to theirs.

personally i think its incredibly endearing when a guy talks to the parents first. It means that he realizes how important it is to you and that he''ll do what he needs to do to make you happy.

btw...its not like like we''re very young either...im 28 and he''s 33 and we''ve been dating for 3 years....

 

[strmrdr]

If you don't her family will hold it against your forever and she might too.
They may not say anything to you but it will be talked about forever.

 

[imrit]

I''ve decided basically not to do any asking or blessing seeking, even though she''d probably like it. I feel like getting a traditional engagement ring was my capitulation to traditions I don''t think very much of - but the idea of telling someone else in advance that I plan on asking someone to marry me doesn''t sit well, so I''m not doing it. I trust her remaining parent - she might be disappointed over not knowing, but it''ll pass.