No DIF Hearts and Arrows. Chance, or Expected?

[spchambers]

First time poster, long time looker. Pricescope is awesome, awsome, awesome. It''s allowed me to take so much more pride in my decision making process. Thanks to all.

So, I''ve noticed that when looking through pricescope/whiteflash/jamesallen, I can''t seem to find any D IF (AGS or even GIA) hearts & arrows cut diamonds. Although I''m looking for small stones, (0.3-0.45 for a three-stone engagement) I opened the search to remove any restriction on carat weight, but still found none. In my size range, the best clarity I seem to find in a D "hearts and arrows" or ACA cut is VVS1. Is there a reason for this, or is it just chance? I''m willing to compromise on clarity to have the best cut, but I wasn''t expecting my search results to narrow down my decision for me.

Much thanks again. This forum is just packed with insight.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/24/2009 11:18:54 AM
Author:spchambers
First time poster, long time looker. Pricescope is awesome, awsome, awesome. It's allowed me to take so much more pride in my decision making process. Thanks to all.

So, I've noticed that when looking through pricescope/whiteflash/jamesallen, I can't seem to find any D IF (AGS or even GIA) hearts & arrows cut diamonds. Although I'm looking for small stones, (0.3-0.45 for a three-stone engagement) I opened the search to remove any restriction on carat weight, but still found none. In my size range, the best clarity I seem to find in a D 'hearts and arrows' or ACA cut is VVS1. Is there a reason for this, or is it just chance? I'm willing to compromise on clarity to have the best cut, but I wasn't expecting my search results to narrow down my decision for me.

Much thanks again. This forum is just packed with insight.

Welcome and thank you for your very kind words concerning the forum!

There might not be much in the way of h&a cut in these sizes although they are available but also D IF is somewhat limiting too. What I would do is contact a vendor who specializes in h&a and ask them if they know of suitable diamonds in the pipeline or could source some for you. Unless you prefer IF and D colour as they have special significance for you I would consider the VVS grades or even VS and possibly E colour which would give essentially the same look if the cut is excellent, but if you prefer D IF then that is of course fine - this is totally up to the individual and no need to justify it. I would broaden the carat weight a bit too, include up to .55 perhaps and from .25 upwards. Try these sellers initially;

www.niceice.com Infinity

www.whiteflash.com ACA brand h&a

www.goodoldgold.com hand selected h&a

www.highperformancediamonds.com Infinity

www.briangavindiamonds.com Signature h&a

www.jamesallen.com True Hearts.

www.exceldiamonds.com selected h&a

Blue Nile has 2 diamonds which might suit in the size range and D IF colour and clarity, they are of Signature Ideal cut quality but as you might know images are essential to judge h&a cuts and BN don't supply them. If you include VVS1 and VVS2 in your search and use the cut quality search this does give a lot more options but it depends on your preferences and timescale whether you prefer to stick to IF or not.

 

[ct-appr]

I was wondering why you feel you need such high quality stones. In the sizes you are looking D-F color, VS1 or above, ideal cut would be virtually indistinguishable.

 

[hihowareyou]

My understanding is that there are significantly fewer D and IF stones cut than lower grades in general. I don't have any stats to back this up but in my scanning of listings, IF stones seem to be particularly uncommon compared to other grades.

I can understand that there are reasons why you would want to seek out that level natural perfection. I have a suspicion that your thread is going to have a few people guessing why. Do you mind sharing your story of why you are looking specifically at D and IF stones?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/24/2009 12:00:27 PM
Author: hihowareyou
My understanding is that there are significantly fewer D and IF stones cut than lower grades in general. I don't have any stats to back this up but in my scanning of listings, IF stones seem to be particularly uncommon compared to other grades.

I can understand that there are reasons why you would want to seek out that level natural perfection. I have a suspicion that your thread is going to have a few people guessing why. Do you mind sharing your story of why you are looking specifically at D and IF stones?

Its up to the individual as to what they choose and their reasons for doing so as we know, some prefer D IF or VVS clarity for cultural or purity reasons as the symbolism of D IF holds special significance, some just want the best money can buy or what to them personally is the best, there can be various reasons for these decisions and it is something we see here fairly often that some buyers prefer the highest grades. Yes lower grades might look very similar and this is pointed out so the buyer knows all their options but in the end some still prefer to stick to their original D IF specifications as to them that is an important part of their ' package.'

 

[stone-cold11]

There are 2 from GOG. A 0.86c and a 1.01c. There are not many D IF in the market anyway and I am guessing they are already selling at a big premium that cutting for a H&A and not the best weight retention is not necessary for the best return.

 

[spchambers]

Thank you everybody for your input..this is just what I need. And yes, my reasoning comes down to this: my future fiance''s hand is so small, that I can afford to (and want to) find the highest quality diamonds for her. I know it could never be appreciated by an unassisted eye, but if you want the best for someone...
...sorry, don''t mean to gush.

Another thing is that I got a little turned off at all the brick and mortar stores automatically pushing G SI2 diamonds on me, without even asking my budget, or if I cared about rarity, quality, etc. Of *course* you can''t tell the difference between an IF and VVS1, for example. It''s just worth more..an investment..sentimental, and otherwise.

 

[spchambers]

Thanks so much for this -I really appreciate your time! I''ve looked over most of these vendors, but I''ll look into the others. Awesome!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/24/2009 12:49:47 PM
Author: spchambers
Thanks so much for this -I really appreciate your time! I've looked over most of these vendors, but I'll look into the others. Awesome!

You are most welcome! And thats as good a reason as any for wanting D IF! Just where an investment is concerned, diamonds in general aren't a good financial investment, you might already be aware of this but I thought I would mention it.

 

[spchambers]

Date: 10/24/2009 12:52:40 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/24/2009 12:49:47 PM

Author: spchambers

Thanks so much for this -I really appreciate your time! I''ve looked over most of these vendors, but I''ll look into the others. Awesome!

You are most welcome! And thats as good a reason as any for wanting D IF! Just where an investment is concerned, diamonds in general aren''t a good financial investment, you might already be aware of this but I thought I would mention it.

I completely agree..besides the sentimental investment, I was most considering upgrade options and potential. Thanks so much for the input!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/24/2009 1:08:52 PM
Author: spchambers

Date: 10/24/2009 12:52:40 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 10/24/2009 12:49:47 PM

Author: spchambers

Thanks so much for this -I really appreciate your time! I've looked over most of these vendors, but I'll look into the others. Awesome!

You are most welcome! And thats as good a reason as any for wanting D IF! Just where an investment is concerned, diamonds in general aren't a good financial investment, you might already be aware of this but I thought I would mention it.

I completely agree..besides the sentimental investment, I was most considering upgrade options and potential. Thanks so much for the input!

You are most welcome! What I would suggest if an upgrade is a possibility for the future, go with a vendor who has a lifetime upgrade policy, you can get this with Infinity, ACA, some GOG diamonds and Brian Gavin. James Allen also have an upgrade policy but you have to spend 50% extra I believe to qualify. This would be better than trying to resell the original diamonds yourself and that way you can get the full value back to use to get another diamond.

 

[DavR]

Like you I wanted to maximize color/clarity. The Diamond I chose was a .595 D/VVS2 Ideal H&A. I can honestly say that there is no way I will ever be able to see the inclusions. I am not so sure about VS1, but I think you would be very safe by adding VVS1/VVS2 to your criteria. Also be aware that as you increase the quality of the stone they get proportionally rarer.

 

[Karl_K]

They get sent to Japan and are not on the US market which is why you cant find many.

 

[spchambers]

Date: 10/24/2009 2:57:51 PM
Author: Karl_K
They get sent to Japan and are not on the US market which is why you cant find many.

This is very interesting - any research pointing to this?

 

[haagen_dazs]

Date: 10/24/2009 2:57:51 PM
Author: Karl_K
They get sent to Japan and are not on the US market which is why you cant find many.

is this really true?

 

[spchambers]

I''m interested in Karl''s claim.. something like that might make sense; using pricescope''s search, little or no H&A''s or AGS0''s turn up with D IF quality..

 

[Karl_K]

I have been looking for some public information to show you but for the most part this kind of information is tightly held.
It has been a standard industry "fact" for years.
At one point I saw some data to back it up but it was not a public source.

 

[megeve]

When I was at VC&A during my custom setting period, I was shown a large inventory of DEF in IF/VVS clarity, also at Cartier, so I would presume all top color grades and clarities are bought by the big maisons.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/25/2009 1:57:16 AM
Author: spchambers
I''m interested in Karl''s claim.. something like that might make sense; using pricescope''s search, little or no H&A''s or AGS0''s turn up with D IF quality..

Karl does have a point, goods will be sent where there is most demand.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Karl''s explanation is simple and appealing in its simplicity, but it holds no ground.

In the price of a diamond, the majority of the price (80% or more) is defined by the C''s of rarity, being carat weight, colour and clarity. A D-IF is the ultimate in rarity, if one looks at the price-tag of the stone.

Every point in weight lost of a D-IF rough stone means a lot of dollars, definitely compared to a similar weight H-SI2. In such a stone, any cutter will think twice before cutting away somewhat more.

The first reason thus is on the cost-side, where a cutter will consider every cutting-decision more in detail, and where he will naturally be inclined to keep the maximum weight possible.

On the other hand, of course, the market has also an effect. Then, we see that in the American market, currently the main market for cut-quality, there is little demand for D-IF in the highest cut-quality. Most consumers are actually weighing the C''s, and giving in on te C''s of rarity in order to obtain the C of Cut-quality.

The Japanese market has no effect on this right now. Years ago, they were at the origin of H&A, but their market is relatively small compared to the US, most interested in smaller stones up to 0.30 Ct, and in a crisis for over a decade.

To summarize, with the high cost of the rough and the cutter of H&A not really having a high-demand market for such diamonds, this cutter is out-competed in his quest for rough by cutters who specialize in lower cut-qualities.

Live long,

 

[FB.]

Paul

Interesting - but seems true from my observations of diamonds.

I would say that the percentage of D''s that get cut to the finest standards is less than the percentage of near-colourless stones that are cut to a high standard.
In other words, a GIA "Excellent cut" D colour will probably be borderline excellent, whereas a GIA "Excellent cut" H colour has a much higher chance of making it right into the heart of the top cut grade and being an AGS-0.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

True FB, but the other part is also true.

For instance, in our situation, with us not really aiming at the high colour/clarity-area, we have cut only one D-IF in the past eight years, and I must add that this one was cut-to-order.

And in our regular production, we have only cut one that comes close, a D-VVS1, which I remember because it was graded only ten days ago.

For IF''s, I think that we have cut less than 10 in the past 8 years.

Live long,

 

[serenitydiamonds]

D-IF''s, while rare in the H&A realm, are carried from manufacturers and vendors that specialize in the real high end markets. There are a higher percentage of clients looking for IF in this range and the margins are not as tight.

--Joshua

 

[DavR]

The diamond I purchased 2 weeks ago was a D VVS2, H&A AGS Ideal. Based on the above comments was I lucky to stumble across it? I understand the whole rarity factor in color/clarity, and Cut + H&A due to the nature of diamond formation as well as having the best cutgrade, but I did not realize that the (internet) market was artificially influenced by regional factors.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hello DavR,

Yes, you probably have a rare find there. In our communications, we often point out that the highest cut-quality is much rarer than D-IF. To have a combo of high color, clarity and cut is truly not common.

However, I would not call it ''artificially'' influenced. Supply following demand is absolutely natural. And the majority of consumers, who educate themselves on cut, prefer to maintain a certain carat weight, while giving in on color and/or clarity. For a lot of people here on PS, it is their natural advice. This reduces demand, and supply naturally follows.

Live long,

 

[DavR]

So essentially the US market has created this situation by placing more emphasis on carat weight than on color/clarity, while Japan has had an opposite trend - thus making D IF stones even rarer than normal proportions that are mined/cut in the US market. Interesting.