Newbie: Is this a good price for a diamond?

[piratecaptain]

Alright guys, I'm new to the site and would appreciate any guidance you could give me on a diamond I'm looking at buying. I know it would help to have a picture, but I don't have one. All I have is the specs:

Price: $10,500 (originally priced at $13,500)
Certification: EGL International
Carats: 2.02 carats
Cut Shape: Cushion
Dimensions: 8.32 x 6.74 x 4.17
Color: F (it seems to be correct based on the look of it in person)
Clarity: SI2 (although it has a few straight lines on the certification. Does that indicate a fracture, and should I be worried?)
Total Depth: 61.9%
Table Depth: 61%
Crown Height: 11%
Pavilion Depth: 44%
Girdle Thickness: Slightly thick to thick, faceted
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very good
Culet: None
Graining: Slight
Fluorescence: None
Cut: Great (according to dealer, but I've yet to see anywhere that has a "great" cut in a chart with ideal cuts, good cuts, etc. Not sure what to think about that)

I think that covers most everything, but if there's anything else, just ask me. I know that a lot of people don't like EGL International, but I think the diamond looks pretty good. There are only a couple of slight visible inclusions, and both are at the edges where they're not visible unless you look really hard. Let me know what y'all think.

 

[kenny]

You cannot trust the grades of EGL.
They can be many grades "kind".

Send this same EGL "F SI2" diamond to GIA or AGS and it may come back G, H, I, J, K, L or worse.
Clarity may come back I3.

Diamonds graded by EGL are a gamble, a lottery ticket.
And with gambling the odds are always with the house.

Diamonds graded by GIA or AGS are not more expensive.
They are just correctly graded.
When a diamond is correctly graded you can be decide if the price is right.

 

[piratecaptain]

I would generally agree, but, after looking at GIA-certified diamonds with similar specs, this one actually seems to be pretty close to those. It's surprisingly white for an F, and I think the SI2 grading is right (although it could arguably be an SI3 given the two slight visible inclusions). The problem is that I won't get nearly the amount of diamond I'm looking for with a GIA diamond, and I'm resigned to that fact. Thus, I don't really have a problem with an EGL. My main question is that, assuming that these specifics are correct, would that be a reasonable price to pay for a diamond?

 

[kenny]

I would generally agree, but, after looking at GIA-certified diamonds with similar specs, this one actually seems to be pretty close to those. It's surprisingly white for an F, and I think the SI2 grading is right (although it could arguably be an SI3 given the two slight visible inclusions). The problem is that I won't get nearly the amount of diamond I'm looking for with a GIA diamond, and I'm resigned to that fact. Thus, I don't really have a problem with an EGL. My main question is that, assuming that these specifics are correct, would that be a reasonable price to pay for a diamond?

That's the scam.

The sellers of EGL diamonds have brainwashed you into BELIEVING you "won't get nearly the amount of diamond I'm looking for with a GIA diamond".

Don't fall for this.
You are being scammed.
Lied to.

Wise up.
Wake up.

Imagine if EGL had a different scale so diamond that weighed 1.0 ct at GIA weighted 1.54 ct at EGL.
This is the same thing.
The retailers can convince you that, "You won't get nearly the weight of diamond you're looking for with a GIA diamond."
UHM of course not, because GIA is not lying like EGL is.
EGL gets away with it by saying "Oh clarity and color are just human judgement".
Well GIA and AGS use humans too . . . and also a thing called ethics.

 

[piratecaptain]

I understand what you're saying, but that's not what I'm asking. I have seen the diamond, and I have compared it with GIA diamonds with the exact same specs. This isn't one of those that could be an L color, I2 clarity just because it was graded by EGL. Based on what I've seen, I'm fairly certain that the F, SI2 certification is actually correct (though I agree with you that EGL can often be off as well). My question is, again, whether, assuming that these specs are right, this is a good price?

(I'm not arguing the EGL/GIA issue. I've researched all of that, and I'm comfortable with the EGL certification despite the fact that they are sometimes off on the certification).

 

[kenny]

I understand what you're saying, but that's not what I'm asking. I have seen the diamond, and I have compared it with GIA diamonds with the exact same specs. This isn't one of those that could be an L color, I2 clarity just because it was graded by EGL. Based on what I've seen, I'm fairly certain that the F, SI2 certification is actually correct. My question is, again, whether, assuming that these specs are right, this is a good price?

(I'm not arguing the EGL/GIA issue. I've researched all of that, and I'm comfortable with the EGL certification).

No!
You and I cannot grade diamonds, especially under jewelry store lighting.
Two diamonds that look to same to you and I can differ in price by 100%, both graded by GIA.

You say Assuming the specs are right.
If they were they owners WOULD have sent it to GIA.

Don't be a sucker in this huge scam.
Stick to diamonds graded by GIA or AGS.

 

[piratecaptain]

Ok. I completely understand that you don't like EGL, but that's still not my issue. I don't care whether it's EGL or GIA or whoever (which I realize that you think is a mistake. I understand that). I like the diamond though, and, at that point, I don't see what point the certification makes.

My question is whether, given these specs, the diamond is worth the price. I understand that you would say no because you think it should have been graded by GIA. However, it isn't graded by GIA. It's an EGL diamond, and I don't have a problem with that. I realize that they are more lenient than GIA -- I'm perfectly fine with that. Anyone else have an opinion on the price or the specs (i.e. not on who certified it)?

 

[kenny]

Kenny not liking EGL totally misses the point.

I don't like stepping in dog poo either.
That's not about Kenny being a snob.
That's about dog poo being . . . dog poo.

I recognize EGL as dog poo.
You don't . . . yet.

I give up . . .

Anyone else want to talk to this guy?

 

[MissGotRocks]

Ok. I completely understand that you don't like EGL, but that's still not my issue. I don't care whether it's EGL or GIA or whoever (which I realize that you think is a mistake. I understand that). I like the diamond though, and, at that point, I don't see what point the certification makes.

My question is whether, given these specs, the diamond is worth the price. I understand that you would say no because you think it should have been graded by GIA. However, it isn't graded by GIA. It's an EGL diamond, and I don't have a problem with that. I realize that they are more lenient than GIA -- I'm perfectly fine with that. Anyone else have an opinion on the price or the specs (i.e. not on who certified it)?

If it could have been graded by GIA and given the same specs, it would have been. The stone would have brought more money and the supplier would have been happy to have it certified by GIA or AGS. It was sent to EGL for a reason. I don't think anyone here would go out on a limb and agree that the specs are the same so therefore it is a good deal. The only thing you could do is buy the stone with an excellent refund policy and have it appraised by an independent appraiser (not within a jewelry store) to see how he or she would grade the stone. Then you could have a more educated opinion as to price.

I understand your question - we all probably had that at some point. You have to try to wrap your mind around the answer you are being given. You're not getting more diamond for the money with an EGL certified stone - you're getting a lower color, lower clarity diamond priced exactly right with a certificate that says it is a higher color and clarity than what it is. On the open market, this would mean very little and be worth even less.

I know this isn't the answer you are looking for but this is an educational site for diamonds. They are a very expensive commodity and it's important that you be as educated as possible before making such a large purchase. If you truly love the stone you are looking at, buy it with the understanding that if it doesn't appraise at the same color/clarity of the cert, it can be returned for the full purchase price.

 

[piratecaptain]

If it could have been graded by GIA and given the same specs, it would have been. The stone would have brought more money and the supplier would have been happy to have it certified by GIA or AGS. It was sent to EGL for a reason. I don't think anyone here would go out on a limb and agree that the specs are the same so therefore it is a good deal. The only thing you could do is buy the stone with an excellent refund policy and have it appraised by an independent appraiser (not within a jewelry store) to see how he or she would grade the stone. Then you could have a more educated opinion as to price.

I understand your question - we all probably had that at some point. You have to try to wrap your mind around the answer you are being given. You're not getting more diamond for the money with an EGL certified stone - you're getting a lower color, lower clarity diamond priced exactly right with a certificate that says it is a higher color and clarity than what it is. On the open market, this would mean very little and be worth even less.

I know this isn't the answer you are looking for but this is an educational site for diamonds. They are a very expensive commodity and it's important that you be as educated as possible before making such a large purchase. If you truly love the stone you are looking at, buy it with the understanding that if it doesn't appraise at the same color/clarity of the cert, it can be returned for the full purchase price.

I actually do understand what you guys are saying. I realize that EGL isn't as reputable or as accurate as GIA, and I realize that it definitely affects the price. I think what I'm trying to say is does anyone have a price chart for EGL diamonds? I mean, I have a Rappaport sheet, but that obviously isn't a very accurate predictor of what a diamond is worth. I understand that the diamond as an F, SI2 by EGL could probably be graded as a G-H, I1 by GIA (though I don't think this one would be). All I really want is a number. If this were GIA graded as a G-H (or even H-I) I1, would it be worth this price? I understand that it would be graded lower as a GIA diamond. Based on what research I've done, it sounds like GIA generally (obviously this isn't always the case) grades around two levels lower than EGL. So, if this were a GIA diamond at two levels lower, would it be worth the price? Maybe the better question is what should I expect $10,500 to get me in a diamond at around 2 carats?

As for the refund policy, I already have all of that guaranteed by the jeweler, so I don't think that should be a problem. The jeweler will also match prices up to when I buy the diamond and for a certain period thereafter.

 

[MissGotRocks]

Just as a comparison, here is a G, VS2 cushion from Good Old Gold. I am not well versed in cushion cut diamonds and think that you would truly have to evaluate them on a case by case basis. A VS2 grade will obviously fetch a much higher price than an SI2 but I'm just throwing this one out there for you to see. http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8188/

I don't think anyone here has a chart of prices; I would suggest though that you contact some of the PS vendors here and pose your questions to them. I think they would be in a much better position to give you details on price and more importantly, give you more information on the type of cut quality that would produce a beautiful stone. I understand that you are trying to get the most for your money but cushions can be tricky and you don't want to make price your only consideration when choosing a stone. A smaller, well cut stone will be much more eye pleasing than a poorly cut larger one. These vendors are very well versed and could provide you much more information on this particular cut. You've got nothing to lose but some time and stand to gain quite a bit in information. Consider speaking with Good Old Gold, Whiteflash, ID Jewelry and some of the other PS vendors. They are good, solid vendors and will be very forthcoming with you in terms of stones and prices.

I think it is doubtful that you can get a 2 ct. well cut stone in any shape for $10,500.00. You can use the diamond search tool at the top of the page and plug in shapes and colors and clarities to try to find comparable stones in that size range. As with most things, you generally get what you pay for. There are no real steals in this industry. You can find cut rate stones but they come with a cut rate appearance as well so buyer beware. I sincerely wish there were just a simple answer to your question but price, color and clarity only tell part of the story. The bigger piece is the cut of the stone and that is what will make or break any diamond.

 

[piratecaptain]

These vendors are very well versed and could provide you much more information on this particular cut. You've got nothing to lose but some time and stand to gain quite a bit in information. Consider speaking with Good Old Gold, Whiteflash, ID Jewelry and some of the other PS vendors. They are good, solid vendors and will be very forthcoming with you in terms of stones and prices.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try to check in with them.

 

[kenny]

it sounds like GIA generally (obviously this isn't always the case) grades around two levels lower than EGL. So, if this were a GIA diamond at two levels lower, would it be worth the price? Maybe the better question is what should I expect $10,500 to get me in a diamond at around 2 carats?

Why even ask, since yours may be one of the ones that is 5 grades off?

Extreme Inconsistency of EGL's inaccuracy is another problem.

Face it, you just can't afford a diamond that this diamond pretends to be.
Sorry, but blame EGL and vendors of EGL diamonds for this mess.

Write a letter to the FTC or your congressperson.

 

[onedrop]

Great advice from Miss Got Rocks. In addition to the vendors she named, you might also try contacting Engagement Rings Direct, since they, in addition to GOG have their own brand of cushion cut diamonds. You might want to also narrow down the type of cushion you want, modern or antique-like before you contact the vendors. Doing so would probably help them to assist you in your search.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Kenny not liking EGL totally misses the point.

I don't like stepping in dog poo either.
That's not about Kenny being a snob.
That's about dog poo being . . . dog poo.

I recognize EGL as dog poo.
You don't . . . yet.

I give up . . .

Anyone else want to talk to this guy?

when Kenny talk i listen...

 

[Christina...]

Cutters and or dealers select labs based on which lab can return the most profit for their investment. If they feel that GIA or AGS will knock the cut or that the color or clarity will fall below ideals then they send the diamond to a softer lab for grading. It's impossible for any of us to tell you if you are getting a good deal for the stone simply because we don't know what the accurate grading is. You already know that it's likely not a GIA F SI1 so you can't compare it to GIA or AGS prices. What you could do is do a pricescope diamond search and enter in the data and see what comes back for EGL stones with the same specs. This will at least tell you if you could buy a similarly graded stone for less money or if yours can be considered a deal. You could also have it independently appraised. An appraiser will be in the best position to tell you what the diamond is worth and what it's actual grade is. If it were my diamond I would want to know what I was buying, just as I would want to know if i was paying for a honda civic at BMW price. Good luck!

edit: grammar

 

[slksapphire]

pirate captain,

i think people are getting frustrated bc you can do the work yourself to answer your question.

i used the pricescope diamond searcher and for 2.0-2.05 ct, the cheapest cushion i could find was I/SI1 for $11,819.

most of them were more like $12,000-$13,000.

so at $10,500, you are getting the deal of the century for a 2.0 ct cushion; the diamond market is INCREDIBLY efficient which means you are probably looking at a very flawed stone.

ETA: all of the grading above is GIA

 

[Casey312]

Hey!

So I encountered a similar issue when I upgraded my engagement ring stone recently. Here's my input and I hope it's helpful since I just went through it. For reference, I was upgrading my 1 ct stone to a 1.5 ct round brilliant. My budget for the 1.5 ct stone was $7K (which is extremely low) before trade-in value.

-EGL is extremely inconsistent. I've looked at probably 15-20 stones under a loupe, both EGL-I, EGL-USA & GIA. Yes, GIA was by far the most consistent. I saw some really ugly EGL stones and the jeweler tried to price the EGL stones with obvious, visible flaws at the same price as the GIA stones. Scam Alert for sure!

-I was able to find an eye-clean I-SI2 1.52 ct stone, with faint florescence. It was graded by EGL-USA. The cut wasn't perfect according to PS standards, but I thought it was gorgeous and it sparkled like crazy. I checked it out in various lighting conditions, took it outside to see it in shade & direct sunlight. I spent about 2 hours total looking at it and deciding.

-I found some other stones that were GIA certified online that I liked a lot, but obviously they were more expensive. I was willing to pay more, but we needed the higher trade-in value. Selling the stone for cash would have been a loss of money and we would have had to pay extra to set it. Without those circumstances, I would have probably sucked it up for a GIA cert diamond from James Allen that I found and paid the extra money because the stone I found was slightly larger, had a bigger table spread and was cut better.

-If you love the stone and aren't bothered by the inclusions, aren't planning on selling or trading it in, are already at the top of your budget, and must have 2 ct, then I don't think it's a terrible decision to buy it. I would find out ideal cut measurements for cushions and compare them against your stone before you buy it though. Just realize that the grading could be lower than it says on paper.

-I personally don't regret my decision for a minute. Mine cost $6600, they gave me exactly what we paid for the first stone as trade-in value and set it for free in my current setting (it was really important to me to keep it for my fiance's sake). It looks beautiful on my hand and it's quite a find when you spot an eye clean SI2 stone. I can't stop staring at it and love it... and I absolutely had to stay within budget.


I don't know if that helps you, but that was my experience. As I said, I probably would have spend the $2k or so extra for the GIA cert stone, but given my circumstances and budget, I feel good about my choice. A lot of people on this forum thought I was getting a bad stone but I really love it and am happy as a peach. So it's a very personal decision.