new dog situation

[partgypsy]

Wow, I don''t even know how to say this. Our lovely family dog passed away the first of February. Around this time we had heard of a 1 year old dog who really needed a home. After a number of conversations with the foster family and 2 in-person visits we said yes. We told them when they asked what would we do if we changed our mind, that we don''t do that kind of thing, we are forever dog type people. However the last 2 weeks have me seriously reconsidering my words. It''s not that the dog is terrible, but in retrospect totally inappropriate for our life right now, the main issue is that we have an 18 month old and a 5 year old, and to put it mildly, the dog is not blending in.
Some of the issues. When we visited the dog he was recovering from an injury. Now that we have him and he is recovered from his leg injury, we have discovered he is an extremely high energy dog. It is like they say, he would be great as a farm dog! We have been taking him for at least 4 walks a day, but that barely scratches the surface. Also although he is 1 year old (a long story) we see from his behavior has had virtually no training or guidance. He gets excited when wanting to play or interact, and does this by nipping our hands and back of our legs, and would do the same to our children if we weren''t constantly monitoring and playing interference.
Now my husband and I are not newbies; we each have raised abandoned or not so ideal dogs from puppydom, and know this behavior is normal based on his age and lack of training. But days like this, where I think he is making progress, but again starts up with the biting and I have to put him in the crate to give us a break, is making me feel really discouraged. Instead of looking forward to coming home I have been dreading it because it has been so exhausting and frustrating, with anty given day 1 or more of children crying due to the dog. They have not bonded with the dog. Prior to children I had so much patience to raise a dog; it was a hobby, a joy. With my children in the picture I have zero patience or tolerance for this kind of behavior but it is not sinking into the dog (yet).
Anyways, I''m just feeling really down about this situation because this dog really needs a good home and I don''t want to be the latest in a long line of people who have let him down. But in retrospect I feel we may have bit off more than we can chew, and don''t have the time to put in the more intensive training he needs to be a really great dog.

 

[Octavia]

Part Gypsy, I''m so sorry about your old family dog and the situation with the new dog. I don''t have any advice at all, but I wanted to say I can really sympathize with how you''re feeling. My FI and I just adopted a cat, which was his idea and he''s extremely excited. Me, not so much. I''m not used to animals who are so wilfully disobedient and take pleasure doing naughty things (my parents have a dog and if you tell him no, he goes and sulks but at least he listens) and it''s driving me crazy. FI thinks it''s hilarious, and when I get irritated he just shrugs and says that''s what cats do. I''ve never had a cat, so I had no idea what I was in for when I agreed to this. Anyway, I really hope things get better with the new doggie you have now, but I just wanted to let you know that I understand the frustration you''re feeling.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

I have a rescue puppy (no longer a puppy, but still is at heart), too. FlipFlop is a terrier-chihuahua mix and is totally hyper most of the time. We had some informal training with her (a friend who''d trained her own rescue dog who''d been abandoned, as had Flip), and that helped. She minds pretty well, but the real thing that got her to finally relax and be less rambuntous (other than just growing out of puppyhood) was getting a playmate for her. Now that we have Ta Dah!!, both of the dogs are such blessings. They play with us and with each other and it''s made Flip much less territorial, and therefore, less grumpy around strangers.

I don''t know if that''s an option for you, but it may be something you could consider.

 

[gailrmv]

Part Gypsy,
Am I remembering correctly that you are in the Triangle, NC? If so, I have heard that Jane Marshall is an excellent animal behaviorist in the area. I used to volunteer at an animal shelter in the area and we recommended her to families that were having adjustment issues. In fact I consulted her over email when we were having a hard time with our second dog, and she was very helpful. We also took our dogs to obedience classes through our local Parks and Recreation department that were excellent. Also, it helps us to take our dogs to the dog park for them to run off their energy. It took us several months before our two dogs worked out their issues and for our young'un to settle in, but now it is so worth it. I noticed with both of my dogs that they settled down a lot when they turned 2. Best of luck - I really hope you can work it out!

 

[partgypsy]

He loves playing with other dogs, so we have been doing playdates with friend''s dogs. As my husband says he''s pretty "relentless" and eventually the other dog will get tired before he does and let him know in not so many words they are through playing. I would imagine he would really do well in a household with an older dominant dog, but as we wish we did the guinea pig route, the last thing we are doing is getting yet another dog!
I just want to say thanks for listening. I guess during this transition I am just not going to feel bad about doing alot of crating. Yes, he is a rescue dog, in fact between the time we heard about him with his first dumping, and got around to looking at him he had gone through 3 MORE sets of owners. So yes, there are some issues, and I think some of my ambivalence is unlike with a puppy who is affectionate, there is not yet that sense of bonding from him, and who can blame him with his history? I know it would speed his sense of belonging if we didn''t crate so much and let him sleep with us, but on the other hand my first responsibility is for my children, and I don''t feel he has "earned" those rights until his behavior is a little more under control.
There are brief periods of time when he is calm I can see a good family dog, but they are far and few between right now.

 

[gailrmv]

I had serious doubts about our second dog during the first weeks as well.... but it did get easier. We still crate her when we leave the house and it is better for everyone - she is safe and secure, and so is our house. It took me longer than I expected to bond with her as well - but it did happen and now it's at least as strong as with our first dog.

I guess my experience was the opposite of Fisher's - life got a lot harder when we added a second dog, because ours didn't get along that well at first (and they still have their times when then don't.)

I forgot to say, very sorry for the loss of your beloved family dog.

 

[partgypsy]

Tandog, you are right, I''m from Durham (I must have been composing while you were posting!). Thank you for the reference. We did have an old friend of ours who is incredibly good with dogs do an informal eval of "Chuck". As she summed up, "there is nothing wrong with the dog, and he''s not a stupid dog." He did behave better around her, most probably her demeanor (nothing ruffles her) and deep empathy for all things canine. Our 2 previous dogs we did not have go through formal obedience training, but this one will probably need all the extra reinforcement he can get.
Thanks again for letting me vent!

 

[gailrmv]

Part Gypsy, what kind of dog is Chuck? The way you are describing him I am picturing border collie or a terrier, somebody with a lot of energy and spirit. It could be breed instincts that will be hard to overcome, but I think it could still happen with time. He's still very young and learning your expectations and settling in. I really do recommend the training class, either the one Jane offers or the one through Durham Parks and Rec (that's the one we took with each of our dogs - it was fantastic!! I hope it is still the same teacher - can't remember her name - it was a few years ago.) The class was really more about teaching you how to work with your dog, and the real learning is when you work with your dog outside of class. The emphasis was on showing your dog that you are the pack leader and teaching him how you want him to behave. It was very positive and fun, and lasted maybe 6 weeks for an hour or so each time. There was one for puppies and then one for adult dogs. He could probably go to either based on his age. Is there still a Durham dog park? It might be a great way for him to run off his energy, and playdates with other dogs sound like a fantastic idea! Keep us posted. Dogs can make us so happy but can also make us so miserable - I remember early days with our second dog and how much I wanted to tear my hair out!

 

[partgypsy]

Tandog, you are on the money, he looks like he may have some Australian shepard in him. My husband had a dog that was some kind of border collie mix and my husband keeps remarking about the simularities between the 2 dogs (looks, behavior). He''s about 40 pounds, slim, not that strong but very fast. Black slightly longer fur on the top of his head and down his back, with brindle markings on his legs and face.

There is at least 1 dog park in Durham, there may be 2 now, I need to check. Near where I live there are some informal fenced in lots that people bring their dog, and I''ve brought Chuck there (on leash).
My husband is not too keen on formal obedience training but I am warming him up to the idea.

 

[bee*]

Sorry to hear that you''re having problems with Chuck settling in. I think getting a dog trainer/behaviourist would be a good thing to do. It will give you another bit of back up and hopefully he''ll be a great family dog soon enough.

 

[pavelover]

Hi PartGypsy,
I wanted to tell you a short version of my story with my rescued dog Lucy- She had been through multiple homes prior to me choosing her from the spca. I took her home to my two cats after we brought her to the cat area at the spca and she didn''t really bat an eye at the cats- I thought we were good. Unfortunately, she had lots of issues- urinating on the rug, anxiety with destructive behavior, and the worst- she really wanted to eat one of my cats. It took a lonnnng time for us to all get it together- I think I have had her 3 1/2 years!!!! And just recently, I noticed that she is not trying to chase the cat, the cat doesn''t run anymore, and she actually looks scared of the cat a bit(I am not sure if something happened while I was not home- I keep them separated with a gate at the stairs from up/down stairs but sometimes I have forgotten...). Anyway what I am trying to say is I never expected it to take so long, but I do feel like I did the right thing. I am giving her a good home and she just needed alot of adjustment time. I do watch alot of the dog whisperer but I think time did the most.
Here''s hoping that it doesn''t take you that long to all get used to each other- As long as you can feel like your kids are safe maybe you can just get through it. Hang in there- you are doing a good thing- and if you can''t do it- he will end up in a good home, so don''t beat yourself up about it.

p.s. the dog whisperer even shows some dogs get on the treadmill to exercise- do you think you could try to tire him out even more? Good Luck!

 

[cara]

First obligation is to safe home for baby humans, then to safe home for young dog. If crate training helps, don''t feel bad.

Second is you might have a very different dog than you are used to, which might require different training techniques. With the really active/highstrung dogs, you need animal training class for YOU, to teach you how to behave towards the animal, not dog training class to train the dog.

Dog might need more a good run everyday - even four shorter walks might not be enough - and if it is a herding dog the herding/nipping at heels might be a fact of life. Family friends have four dogs, but one in particular is a working sheep dog and has herded the human kids as well as sheep all its life. They are now teenage girls, but still get nips on the legs to move them in the right direction. So you might have to supervise all kid/dog interaction until kids are old enough to deal with being herded.

If it doesn''t work out, don''t feel bad about it. Your kids and your dog need safe homes, and if they aren''t compatible, (most) everyone will agree that priority goes to kids

 

[Heidi137]

A high energy dog and an 18 month old sound like quite a handful. I had my now two year old standard poodle obedience trained as a puppy and she did great. She''s still very active but extremely obedient and the smartest dog I''ve ever owned. We have recently added a pound puppy to our family thanks to my daughter''s recent school project visit to a local high kill shelter. I had a feeling we would be getting a call begging to save one. We really got lucky with the new puppy. Daisy is about five months old, part collie or sheltie and very laid back. She''s not a barker, chewer, or biter. I can''t believe someone turned in such a nice dog. My daughter just happened to be there (last week) when her owner was dropping her off. I''m so glad we found her.

 

[AmberGretchen]

part gypsy - I''m sorry you are dealing with such a stressful situation. I''m going to echo Tandog here on the training though - I volunteer helping to train dogs in a shelter and you would not believe the black and white, night and day difference that obedience training can make, ESPECIALLY in smart, high-energy dogs. Honestly, I''d even recommend going beyond basic obedience to something like Agility or Rally or even just teaching lots of tricks - dogs with herding backgrounds often need a job. As my favorite trainer is fond of saying, if you don''t give them one, they are likely to become self-employed (and you are unlikely to be fond of whatever they choose). I really can''t say enough good things about training - make sure its positive-reinforcement based (NOT the Dog Whisperer - his methods are outdated and EXTREMELY unsafe, especially when used by people without extensive dog training experience - they might be disastrous in a setting with small children).

It would be totally understandable if you and your husband don''t have a lot of time to devote to training your dog with small children to take care of, and if that''s the case, I''d highly recommend bringing in a good behaviorist and/or trainer who can do at least some of the work for you. Again - make sure that all the training methods are based on positive reinforcement only, as aversive techniques (leash jerks, intimidating the dog), can be very dangerous.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/23/2008 2:20:41 AM
Author: AmberGretchen
part gypsy - I''m sorry you are dealing with such a stressful situation. I''m going to echo Tandog here on the training though - I volunteer helping to train dogs in a shelter and you would not believe the black and white, night and day difference that obedience training can make, ESPECIALLY in smart, high-energy dogs. Honestly, I''d even recommend going beyond basic obedience to something like Agility or Rally or even just teaching lots of tricks - dogs with herding backgrounds often need a job. As my favorite trainer is fond of saying, if you don''t give them one, they are likely to become self-employed (and you are unlikely to be fond of whatever they choose). I really can''t say enough good things about training - make sure its positive-reinforcement based (NOT the Dog Whisperer - his methods are outdated and EXTREMELY unsafe, especially when used by people without extensive dog training experience - they might be disastrous in a setting with small children).

It would be totally understandable if you and your husband don''t have a lot of time to devote to training your dog with small children to take care of, and if that''s the case, I''d highly recommend bringing in a good behaviorist and/or trainer who can do at least some of the work for you. Again - make sure that all the training methods are based on positive reinforcement only, as aversive techniques (leash jerks, intimidating the dog), can be very dangerous.

Big ditto and thritto to the training being a great thing. This type of dog would especially benefit from it, I know because I have had a sheepdog. The payoff is you will have a highly intelligent companion who will live to please you if you keep him well trained with boundaries and plenty to do.

 

[firebirdgold]

Well I''ve got two pieces of advice, one for nipping, one for energy.

Nipping: What I used on my very mouthy puppy was to cry. I mean really cry, wail, whimper... etc. Be as dramatic as you possibly can. Heck, I even tried curling into a ball and crying. As a result our dog is extremely good with his mouth with the family. The point being that puppies/dogs don''t naturally understand that human skin is a lot thinner and delicate than dog fur. They have no idea that it could hurt or damage! So instead of yelling, you have to make them understand why it''s bad. This is particularly true for dogs with herding instincts. They tend to be mouthier than other dogs as it''s a way they communicate.


Energy: I''m blessed by a low energy dog but I''ve seen this with other border collie mixes. Not only are they high energy, but they are happier with ''jobs''. I can''t help on suggestions as to what ''job'' you can convince your dog he''s doing, but I can help on wearing him out. Train your puppy to fetch, get a ''Chuck-it, a tennis ball, and go to an off-leash dog park. And Chuck the tennis ball until the puppy keels over. Unfortunately if the dog thinks ball fetching is his ''job'' he may not stop on his own... ever. I knew someone with a border collie mix and they had to take the ball away and hide it so the dog would drink water. I think someone overdid it in breeding a work ethic into those collies!

 

[partgypsy]

Well, my husband is on board with doing obedience training Yay! We will just need to figure out who will be the person who will go to the class. My husband has been spending more time with the dog, but I am more obsessed with knowing exactly what I should be doing.
"Chuck" is actually calming down a bit. He seems to be better behaved the more we spend time with him (he wants to be part of stuff) so we are trying to reduce the amount of time in the crate. I am still putting him in the crate during meal times and of course at bedtime. He still goes nuts 2 times a day where he tears around the house, grabbing things, but we are trying to just take the items away and substitute a toy. We also do alot of fetch. He is nipping less, but if he gets worked up and can''t calm down we do stick him in the crate, but he doesn''t act unhappy about it but settles down.
I''m starting to see the things he is good at, and not good at, rather than feeling overwhelmed with it. It is a far cry from the first week where every day I was thinking; can''t we give him back?

I looked at pics of Australian shepherd and I don''t think (except maybe his eyes) that he looks Australian shepherd, not sure why the foster parent said that. He''s probably a mix of alot of stuff. I''m sure he has some kind of working dog in him either herding or hound due to his high energy and need for activities.

 

[gailrmv]

The way you describe him he sounds like my favorite kind of dog - the medium sized mix of everything! I have two of them - ~40 pounders, both rescues. If you have time, would you post a pic? I have such a softspot for them! Mine are both tan, and since we have no idea of their breed mix, we just call them "Carolina Tans".

I am really glad to hear things are going better with Chuck. Keep us posted!

 

[partgypsy]

Tandog here is a pic. We can all play guess what kind of mix he is!

Another playdate with friend''s dog today, makes him much calmer.

 

[gailrmv]

Aww, he's a cutie! Thanks for posting the pic! I love those doggie smiles. He looks like he's been out having some fun. I've got no guess as to what breed he is - but he sure is cute!
Is his name really Chuck? I think it's cute how you wrote it "Chuck", like when people use a pseudonym when they write into the newspaper advice columns...

ETA: OK, I'll guess. His face almost looks like he has a touch of Rottweiler, although from your description of his size and build he must have something smaller mixed - maybe a hound of some sort?

 

[partgypsy]

Not good weekend. There WAS a 3 hour chunk of time on Sunday afternoon that was good. Mark had taken the two kids out. I was at home making muffins, and Chuck was hanging out calm. He has gotten better.
But most of the time, with the dog and the 2 kids together it is like a 3 ring circus gone psycho. It is literally like I do not have enough time to form a thought, have to monitor every moment during the day. By the end of the day I am exhausted, my husband and I both have shot nerves and have been snapping at each other.
I think it went down especially bad is that I am back in sleep deprivation mode. I often take naps on the weekend to make up for not getting enough sleep during the week, but no time for naps this weekend because our youngest was sick. After a year and 1/2 of not getting a full nights rest due to the baby, to go back to not getting enough sleep my body is saying NO.

This Sunday, after a long hectic day, going to bed, looking forward to getting 8 hours of sleep, when the dog in the crate starts scrabbling and barking. Over and over again. Even though he stopped after he was let out of the crate, I just couldn''t go back to sleep, just feeling angry, upset and frustrated.
Although the dog''s behavior is getting better I am feeling discouraged because a) my oldest daughter is behaving mal adaptedly with the dog, yelling no no no even if he is just standing next to her, and often "things happen" when he and my daughter are together, with the result my daughter crying and the dog being led away and b) my husband said he is not bringing the dog to "camp" (our family vacation where everyone brings their dogs. When I asked him he said "because it''s his vacation too". I just feel sad that we cannot get it together to make a calm structured environment for the dog, and end up losing our temper and/or crating him, which I''m sure is not helpful c) feel physically crappy and stressed.

Guess we''ll do the one day at a time deal, or die trying.

 

[partgypsy]

More bad news. The classes we were going to take through durham parks and recreation have been cancelled, no classes until Fall, way too late. Will need to do more research on what class to take

 

[gailrmv]

Part Gypsy,
I wish I had any good advice, but just wanted to offer my support. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Have you spoken with Chuck''s vet to see if he/she has any suggestions, or can recommend any good obedience classes?
Here is the website of the trainer I mentioned before. I know she does classes at the APS from time to time. I believe anyone can register, you don''t have to have adopted from that shelter. I believe she can also do home consults. I''m sure it is expensive but maybe a couple sessions will vastly improve life with Chuck?

http://www.jane3dog.com/

My friend takes her high energy to doggy day care during the days. It is expensive, but she says it''s necessary with her dog. Maybe that would be helpful to do some days - to give yourself a break if nothing else.

Again, sorry to hear it is not going well

 

[Nicki]

Sorry to hear about all the trouble you''re having.

I completely understand not wanting to give up on him.

One thing you might try to help tire him out on his walks is to give him a job to do while he''s on them. The easiest way to do this is to use a doggie backpack. Put it on whenever you take him for a walk and give him something to carry, maybe it''s just a couple of water bottles, jars of pickles...whatever, it doesn''t really matter. What matters is that he''s got a job to do while he''s out there. He''ll concentrate on his job, which will mentally tire him out, and the added weight means he''s expending more energy while he''s on his walks with you.

 

[Amandine]

You might try contacting the local Humane Society to see if they offer classes. We took one with our dog, and it was great. Or they may have recommendations of trainers for you, I know here in Atlanta there are some that will even come out to your home and work with you and the dog.

 

[partgypsy]

Thanks for all your encouragement, you don''t know but it really helps. There are times these last couple weeks I have been really tempted to "cut bait" and I think my ambivalence about the dog is not helping. Sigh. So I''m going to recommit and give it the old college try. I called Jane Marshall (Thanks tandog mom!) but she is not currently doing group classes, but she recommended another place "Sunny acres" so we are signing up there. We''re going to take the whole family, even if it means all but one will be sitting by the sidelines (they are hour classes) because my oldest is a smart girl and I want her to see how we are supposed to interact with dogs, and hopefully get the fun back.

When he started getting hyper this evening instead of sticking him directly in the crate I was able to involve him in a game of fetch. Then he laid down and I just stroked and petting him all over his body, and he seemed to relax. He did end up getting hyper again when I was getting the kids ready (grabbing their pajamas, etc) so I did end up putting him in the crate but it was for a shorter than usual time. It almost seems like he gets bored easily and his outlet is to goad us (in not so productive ways) to play with him. Hopefully if we get entrenched in a schedule he will understand when is playtime and when is not, and accept and chill out during the non-playtimes.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Part gypsy, sorry I haven''t read the whole thread carfully but wanted to offer my support!

You doggy looks like he has a lot of herding dog in him, especially in the ears he reminds me of my friend''s Aussie Shepperd.. well those dogs are really known to be hyper for the first 3 years of their lives! My friend''s dog in a maniac, as was my other friend''s aussie-poodle cross until she was almost 4. Those dogs really need at least 45 minutes of strenuous work/excercise per day... like running beside you on a bike or playing fetch (with a long throw), or carrying a heavy backpack on a walk. Bored dogs are a PITA, and the herders were bred to work 10 hours per day! Is there a way to work some intense excercise into his daily routine? What if he had a doggie back pack in the house when he spends time with you? Then he would be "wrking"... This is hard to do, or maybe even impossible, especially with little kiddies, but it may be the only way to really get him to calm down.

Don''t feel bad about crating him. Our dogs still sleep in their crate in our room, it is a safe den for them, and as long as he is getting enough exercise it is fine for him to spend the night in the crate, or even a few hours at a time during the day. My friends aussie still sleeps in her crate and also spends time in there during the day. It is good for them and can help them calm down. My male dog hated his crate when we were training him, he would pitch a fit! But now he loves it and doesn''t make a peep when he is in there.

Keep us posted! Wishing you all the best.

 

[Nicki]

I had another thought on when you said he was a pain while you were trying to get the kids ready for bed. If there are times you know that he''s being obnoxious that you need him to be occupied, I''d try a special toy...maybe it''s a kong filled with peanut butter at 8:00 pm, or a special chew toy that he only gets when it''s the kids bedtime. If he''s mentally stimulated on his own, he should leave you guys alone during that time.

 

[partgypsy]

It''s funny about comparisons. We did at one point have a dog similar to "Chuck". Before we were even going out my husband had "Mel", mixed breed, but most probably part border collie, maybe part hound. He was a very athetic (play fetch till the cows came home), kind of a spaz, he would jump off a cliff if you threw a ball there, pretty fearless. I always thought he was rather strange because while he sniffed other dogs he never played or romped with other dogs, as if it was beneath him. The main trait was that he was really really attached to my husband, almost a little neurotic about it. He passed away at 14 in 2003.
Now "my" dog (really our family''s) dog Betty, came along 2000, was just a really good family dog. She was a chow mix, maybe part golden retreiver, and though she enjoyed her walks she was so good around the house, mellow house creature, and so gentle around the kids. So while we did have this more spaz dog in our past, really our mental benchmark has been Betty, who was almost like a living stuffed animal, cuddly with a gentle dignity. So I think some of this transition is mourning Betty and all the ways she was and whom I am used to, before I can get really excited about Chuck, whom I''m sure will end up being just as much part of our family, but in a different way.

We are officially signed up and his first class is this Saturday!

 

[AmberGretchen]

part gypsy - I''m so glad you are signed up for a class with Chuck. A good trainer will really help you understand the problematic behaviors and where they are coming from from the dog''s perspective, which is really the best thing for changing them into behaviors that are more acceptable.

I can''t wait to hear how the classes go - fingers crossed and lots of PS fairy dust.