Negative attitudes about breastfeeding...

[DivaDiamond007]

At least for the US, I find most people think you should breastfeed. HOWEVER, no one actually thinks we should support women to do this. We tell them "breast is best", we guilt them for using formula, and then we make them feel like perverts if they breastfeed in public or for what they consider to be "too long." Oh, and we provide them little to no time before they go back to work, no place to pump AT work, and shun them until they have to BF in a car or dirty bathroom.

So from my experience, women should magically be able to feed all of their babies, stop at the exact socially acceptable day, never do it in public (so don't leave your house!), and be ashamed if we can't manage to pull it off. Sometimes I'm convinced we hate the women in our country.

Sorry I'm a bit heated about breastfeeding today. I'm full term pregnant, and due to a shingles outbreak, I may not have the option to breastfeed, which breaks my heart. Fortunately, I know my baby will be happy and healthy regardless of whether or not I can feed him with my breast!

This.

I could have tried harder to breastfeed my son, but didn't and I don't feel guilty about it. He was born at 36 weeks and really had no interest from day 1. Just wouldn't latch. I started him on formula and stuck it out. He's now a healthy, happy, bright 3 year old and I have no regrets.

As many of you already know, my daughter was born at 35 weeks due to a placental abruption and had no suck/swallow/breathe reflex when she was born. She also had respiratory distress syndrome, apnea, and bradycardia. She was very sick. I began pumping right after she was born and continued to EP until she was 6 weeks old - at which time the pump rental fee and time it took to pump began to out pace the cost of formula so I switched. My insurance didn't cover an LC or the pump rental fee and I could only afford to take off 9 weeks following her birth; 2.5 weeks of which she was in the NICU. I worked for a small office so FMLA and other laws didn't apply.

 

[jstarfireb]

I'm not a mother, but I want to weigh in with what I've noticed as a medical professional (and particularly one who worked at a hospital in urban Philly). In general, the highly educated and involved types like us PSers are very pro-breastfeeding, and with good reason. There are benefits to both the baby and the mother. However, among a lot of people of lower socioeconomic status, lower education levels, particularly teen mothers, there seems to be a bias against breastfeeding. I think it has to do with discrepancies in education and social/cultural norms. While I don't think women should be shamed for not breastfeeding, I think it's reasonable for doctors and nurses to educate women on the benefits of breastfeeding and probe into the reasons someone cites for not wanting to do it.

It's true that society doesn't make it easy to breastfeed, though. What elledizzy said is sad but true.

 

[Skippy123]

I was reading something in one of the parent magazines that 3 out of 4 women breastfeed which is so different than from 1970 where 1 in 4 women breastfed so there is a big change. In 1970 formula wasn't so easily available as it is now so I found that interesting and on formula can it says breast is best. I also read out of the 3 women who bf, approx 1/2 will stop bfing after 6 months. I read that women stopped bfing because number 1 was being exhausted from lack of sleep and 2 not having a good supply of milk. I thought this Wikipedia info was interesting, about EP, health benefits, barriers to bfing, that in countries like India and parts of Africa they breastfeed to around 2 etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breastfeeding

jstar, I was talking to our nurse who is an LC and NP and she was telling me a lot of the moms who are on govt programs where they get food stamps go straight to formula since the govt will pay for it. I also think that you are right people aren't educated about bfing. I have a relative that got pregnant at a young age and she didn't know much about bfing and was embarrassed to ask about it so she just went straight to formula and her mom didn't bf so there wasn't too many relatives she could talk to. I know I was told the health benefits of bfing and my sister bf'ed for a year with both her kids but most women don't talk about the ins and outs of it, just that they did bf. I think everyone in the hospital should be given an LC no matter what and more nurses should be trained to be LC's especially in the mommy baby floor. I actually had questions and the nurse didn't know the answer which was frustrating.

eta: also what do women do if they have a weak supply of milk?? I was frustrated to hear that domperidone which helps with the milk supply and a safer drug for baby and momma isn't offered in the US, it is offered in Canada and other countries. Has anyone read the side effects to Reglan and the lawsuits? Anyway that is offered to bfing moms and they can only be on it a month due to side effect concerns.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I agree that more support is needed to establish and maintain BFing. My daughter was born by c/s and went from 8 lbs. to 7 lbs. 1 oz. in the hospital. I had a revolving door of LCs, who all told me different things. In the end, the doctor insisted on giving her formula before we went home (and they send you home with that big case of it). I was so scared that this would kill my chances of really establishing BFing. Then it took her three weeks to regain her birth weight, and the pedi kept telling us to supplement with formula. I went to a lactation center (I really can't remember the cost - I think it was maybe $80 with subsequent visits free?), where the LC wanted me to BF every two hours (which took 40 minutes), THEN pump, THEN give her an ounce of formula or what I had pumped, and THEN start all over again half an hour later. Overnight too. I quickly reached my breaking point after that, and my mom had to come for an emergency visit to take care of all household things while I went through my mad routine. DH and my mother snuck a couple of ounces of formula in over my protestations, but eventually we got the hang of it. DD was always smaller (like 10th to 25th percentile in weight) until 6 months when she started solids, but she was healthy.

I think that if I hadn't been obsessed with making it work, despite the pressures from the doctor, my DH, and my mother (who I understand were just worried about solving the immediate problem), it wouldn't have. I think the insanity of that first month coupled with the 5 months I worked and pumped (I quit to SAH when she was 8 months old) really did me in. Maybe I would have BFed past a year otherwise, but I was just exhausted and over it when a year came, and I never worried about missing that closeness - the freedom to leave her at any time made up for that. We'll see how it goes with DD#2 due in March!

Re nursing in public - DD wouldn't keep her head under a cover, and eventually I just gave up on it. I never felt uncomfortable except when a mentally ill man came into the children's play area/coffee shop, ogled me while I was BFing, and then told me and my friends that we should do what the people at Jonestown did. Anyway, I did it pretty much everywhere. At brunch at a fancy restaurant I asked to go into one of the private rooms in the back, but otherwise I just did it wherever I was - lobbies of restaurants or hospitals, booths in restaurants, etc. I have a small chest, though, so with a nursing tank covering my stomach and my shirt covering my shoulders, I don't think there was any chance of people seeing anything. Not that this should make a difference, but the whole sexualization of breasts makes that the issue here, I think.

I felt more exposed and uncomfortable behind my shawl trying to pump at work than I did pulling my shirt up and popping my DD on. And before I pumped in the guy's cubicle (who was nice enough to offer since his afforded the most privacy, and he and his wife had only had one child because she had gotten cancer right after he was born, so he loved to talk about all things baby), I pumped in the nurse's office, sitting on the cot where sick kids lay. And there was no curtain; it was just sort of tucked behind. I would hear students come and say, "WHAT is that noise?" That's when I decided to pump somewhere where it was only adults, at least, and I didn't have to walk three halls over carrying all my pumping crap.

 

[Laila619]

What is with hospitals from day one trying to sabotage breastfeeding efforts by encouraging formula and sending home tired new moms with cases of the stuff?! It's blatant and rampant. So annoying! When my son was born, all of the nurses knew I was determined to breastfeed, and yet they kept pushing formula on me when he didn't latch very well the first 24 hours. They also kept trying to give him a pacifier even though I told them no artificial nipples while he was trying to learn.

Imagine if a mom said in the hospital that she wanted to formula feed, but the hospital kept on bringing her, say, breastmilk storage bags and nursing pads. That would never happen!

 

[Kunzite]

What is with hospitals from day one trying to sabotage breastfeeding efforts by encouraging formula and sending home tired new moms with cases of the stuff?! It's blatant and rampant. So annoying! When my son was born, all of the nurses knew I was determined to breastfeed, and yet they kept pushing formula on me when he didn't latch very well the first 24 hours. They also kept trying to give him a pacifier even though I told them no artificial nipples while he was trying to learn.

Imagine if a mom said in the hospital that she wanted to formula feed, but the hospital kept on bringing her, say, breastmilk storage bags and nursing pads. That would never happen!

I think it depends on the hospital. My hospital was considered very BF friendly (I think there's a list somewhere?). I had the opposite experience after LO was born, I was constantly asked if I had any BM to bring in so they didn't have to give him formula those first few days. I also had a LC stop by to visit me to "chat" probably every other day while I was visiting. They made a huge effort to make sure the moms felt supported and encouraged.

 

[Laila619]

What is with hospitals from day one trying to sabotage breastfeeding efforts by encouraging formula and sending home tired new moms with cases of the stuff?! It's blatant and rampant. So annoying! When my son was born, all of the nurses knew I was determined to breastfeed, and yet they kept pushing formula on me when he didn't latch very well the first 24 hours. They also kept trying to give him a pacifier even though I told them no artificial nipples while he was trying to learn.

Imagine if a mom said in the hospital that she wanted to formula feed, but the hospital kept on bringing her, say, breastmilk storage bags and nursing pads. That would never happen!

I think it depends on the hospital. My hospital was considered very BF friendly (I think there's a list somewhere?). I had the opposite experience after LO was born, I was constantly asked if I had any BM to bring in so they didn't have to give him formula those first few days. I also had a LC stop by to visit me to "chat" probably every other day while I was visiting. They made a huge effort to make sure the moms felt supported and encouraged.

That's so nice, Kunzite! I wish my hospital had been like that. Mine was unfortunately not. The nurse came in and told me my son would not be able to latch because I had "flat nipples" (I don't) and that I needed to have my husband run out and buy a nipple shield right away. So he left to go to Target in a snowstorm when he should have been staying with his brand new baby and wife, and that didn't even make any difference because the nurse gave bad advice and that wasn't the issue. Luckily I stuck with it and didn't believe the nurse that I would not be able to nurse.

The LCs at my hopsital were very nice at least, but they were scarce and hardly came around at all.

BTW, congrats again on the new LO!!!!

 

[Jennifer W]

What is with hospitals from day one trying to sabotage breastfeeding efforts by encouraging formula and sending home tired new moms with cases of the stuff?! It's blatant and rampant. So annoying! When my son was born, all of the nurses knew I was determined to breastfeed, and yet they kept pushing formula on me when he didn't latch very well the first 24 hours. They also kept trying to give him a pacifier even though I told them no artificial nipples while he was trying to learn.

Imagine if a mom said in the hospital that she wanted to formula feed, but the hospital kept on bringing her, say, breastmilk storage bags and nursing pads. That would never happen!

That is exactly what happened in the hospital I used. One of the reasons I chose it - they were quite adamant that breast feeding was required. You could of course use formula if you wanted, but you had to bring it, and all the stuff that goes with it. If your baby didn't latch well, you pumped, then fed it to the baby with a spoon, never a bottle.

They were pretty hardcore.

 

[Puppmom]

There was a very obvious line in our hospital between the nurses and LCs. LCs strongly encouraged breastfeeding and strongly discouraged formula. They weren't crazy ladies either. They were very supportive and kind. I was in the hospital for 2 days and saw the LCs 5 times. The nurses, on the other hand, would offer formula as soon as the new mom waivers thinking her baby's not getting enough milk etc.- you know all of those things you worry about in the beginning. I also received endless *samples* (as in full size cans) of formula in the mail after I delivered. I donated them to a women's shelter. My mom also brought me lots of formula because she would wither *forget* that I was nursing or didn't realize I *still* was.

 

[Pandora II]

In the UK hospitals aim for 'Baby Friendly' status and to get this they are very pro breast-feeding.

It is absolutely forbidden for formula samples are allowed to be given to new mothers in hospital, the hospital will not give formula, there are no nurseries so unless your baby is sent to the NICU you room in and you are encouraged to breast-feed straight after birth - vit K injections etc are all delayed in order to let the baby feed. The midwife who delivers the baby (OB's only deliver tricky cases) will generally assist you in the first feed.

If you want to use formula then you have to bring it yourself, you will get a few dirty looks unless there is a medical reason not to and the LC will probably visit to find out why you are choosing not to BF and try to persuade you otherwise.

Here there is the same socio-economic and age division that Skippy was talking about. Older and better educated mothers breast-feed and the younger, poorer and less educated do not. Teen mothers in particular are the least likely to breast-feed. A big part is getting the partner on board. Pre-1970 there was a lot of encouragement for women to use formula and so there can be problems from older relatives who perhaps feel that their own choice is being criticised by a daughter or grand-daughter choosing to breast-feed.

Today there are moves in countries like India and China for the newly-affluent middle classes to FF and use disposable nappies rather than EC as a way of emulating the West. This is having big financial and health implications for children born to poorer families who try to emulate but can't afford them and don't have access to clean water and sterilisation.

We do have free LC advice - better in some areas than others though. A friend of mine had the LC come to see her nearly every day for the first 6 weeks. As it is, the midwives visit every day for the first 10 days after you get home and longer if they feel you need it. They will help out with breast-feeding issues and arrange for the LC to visit if necessary.

I have a few issues with the hospital stance on breast-feeding. They never tell you how hard and how painful it can be, only that it isn't if you get the latch right (I disagree) - many of the younger midwives don't have kids so they are not speaking from experience. Sometimes there are real issues with breast-feeding and hospitals don't always handle things correctly.

For example, my niece was born with a cleft palate and so couldn't breast-feed - it just ran straight out of her nose. The midwives had no idea that you can't form a vacuum with a missing palate and actually shouted at my sister that she wasn't trying properly. Poor girl had had a 36 hour labour, discovered that her child had a cleft palate and was now being told off for not being able to breast feed which she desperately wanted to do. In the end the LC arrived and sorted everything out. My niece couldn't use a normal bottle, they have a kind of funnel thing that avoids the need to suck. My sister EP'd for over 6 months which I was pretty impressed by.

When I had Daisy I had to stay in for a week because she was opiate dependent. They wouldn't let me have formula and I was told off when they caught DH smuggling it in. I was told that she would never take the breast again and I was damaging the flora in her stomach. Well, after she lost 20% of her birth-weight in a week and ended up with her electrolyte and sodium levels all over the place, the neonatologist had a fit and she was put on formula every half hour till they were straightened out - the hospital gave me formula from their locked cupboard ( ).

I got a phone-call from the head of department a week after we left hospital to apologise and to say that what had happened was unacceptable and they had reviewed their protocols! I was very suprised and pleased to get the call.

Skippy, I wasn't best pleased to discover several months down the line that I could have been given things to bring my milk in. My father told me about them (why he couldn't have done at the time I do not know) as he used them on the island I grew up on. There, the water was all from wells, they had a cholera epidemic and formula just didn't exist. If a mother couldn't breast-feed then they either had to find a wet-nurse or their was a good chance the baby would die. Hence things like domperidone were used quite regularly.

 

[Skippy123]

PANDORA or LAILA or someone who knows, I am curious about something. A few moNths ago I contacted the La Leche League about maybe getting breast milk for my boys (like the milk banks, I know some PS'ers have made donations). Anyway the LLL told me they don't do that and fear of hepatitis, etc. Also my closest milk bank is in another state. So then the LLL told me I could bring back my milk supply. I didn't ask because I had would only produce about 18 ozs a day w/7 pumps and with 10 about 26 pumps. So my question is can you really bring your milk supply back? how and would it be very weak? Just curious!

 

[charbie]

I totally agree with what elle said.
I also have to say that part of the problem is that nursing in public (NIP) is that it is taboo. No one does it very often, so I think that makes tose who do become an uncomfortable sideshow. I can remember the switch going off in my head that I wasn't going to let myself feel embarassed or awkward anymore when I was at a restaurant and my baby started crying bc she was hungry. I kept shushing, thinking, ok, ill scarf down my food and get out the the car. I realized tho that her crying was probably more distracting that if I just whipped out my boob and put her on, so that's what I did. Since then I just decided screw everyone else, I'm feeding my kid wherever and whenever. It was MY fear to get over, and honestly, I've realized it probably was more my hang up than that of others.

I haven't had much negativity, tho. I have my own office, so I just shut the door, lock it, and work from my desk while I pump. In fact, many people say they think its great I plan to BF, since my baby has a heart defect and the benefits from BFing are so good to help keep her healthy leading to surgery. I'm only 3 days in to pumping at work, tho

My hospital was very BF friendly as well. An LC saw me the morning after the baby was born, at my request, and she had them bring in a pump to help get my supply in. They sent me home with loads and loads of BFing stuff...lanolin, all of the pump supplies I had used, a hand pump, and more literature than I could ever read. We did end up giving the baby about 15 cc's of formular from a dropper bc she had yet to urinate at 30 hours after birth. Right after we gave her the formula, she peed. Then we never gave it to her again. They never brought in a pacifier.

I agree with pandora that no one prepares you for what a commitment BFing is. I completely understand why people give it up...the pain of it and gritting my teeth for the first few weeks every time she needed to nurse will forever be engrained in my head. My baby could nit open her mouth enough, but eventually I got over the pain and it became much easier. But if I wasn't so determined to make BFing work, I'm pretty sure I could have given it up. It isn't this stressfree, easy, experience I thought it would be. Its gotten much better, and I'm growing to love it, but I can see why people quit!

 

[Logan Sapphire]

So a question for those who were in breastfeeding-friendly hospitals (I never checked if mine was)- what happens if there are issues with nursing? The LCs at mine actually put drops of formula on my breast to try to get DS to latch (he physically couldn't, due to the tongue tie). Would that use of formula be frowned on? Also, the day after we were discharged from his birth, he had to go back to the hospital for a moderate to slightly severe case of jaundice and excessive weight loss. Because it was so soon after his birth, I didn't have milk (not unexpected) so he had to have formula on a regular basis to flush out the bilirubin. Would that also be frowned on or would that be considered a reasonable medical necessity?

The problem I have with some pro-breastfeeding initiatives is that they can be very heavy on the guilt factor. I am very pro-breastfeeding (especially since I've only known pain associated with it), but the expectation/pressure (maybe all self-induced, maybe not) can weigh heavily on a new mom and be detrimental.

I have a friend who was determined to have a natural childbirth and as she put it, "end world hunger with the milk springing forth from her Mother Earth boobs." Due to medical necessity (low and degraded amniotic fluid) she ended up have a c-section. She also had breastfeeding issues and combined with her having a c-section rather than the natural birth she had envisioned, she basically had a breakdown a week after delivery and ended up in the ER, after telling her husband she was afraid she was dying from a cut on her finger she'd gotten earlier and that she didn't want to be left alone with the baby b/c she didn't know what she would do to her. I've talked with her a lot about nursing disappointment and the pressure and guilt she continues to have over not being able to breastfeed is incredible (she didn't feel comfortable nursing with the medication they put her on, was told to pump and dump at least 12 times a day for the duration of her being on the meds, and then decided with her psychiatrist that she needed to remain on the meds for much longer than she had anticipated). I wish that we could find a way to support women in breastfeeding but not have women feel like utter failures if nursing doesn't work out.

 

[Puppmom]

I agree LS that sometimes being pro-breastfeeding can feel like pressure to many moms when really the decision is up to them. At my hospital, they ask if you intend to BF and, if you say yes, they give you all of the resources you need. If you say no, they give you formula. Formula is routinely given to jaundice there babies because obviously the priority is flushing their system. I'm not a medical professional so I don't know if you can accomplish this BFing if you're still just producing colustrum. I would think your body takes a few days to adapt and time is of the essence with jaundice. I have a friend whose son had bilirubin levels of 15 at 12 hours old. From what I understand, that's pretty high (and dangerous). The NICU gave him formula because she wasn't producing anything via the pump yet.

 

[pancake]

This is a great thread!

I think mothers just have to do the best that they can. Baby needs love, shelter and to be fed. Mothers need to maintain enough emotional energy and resilience to care for baby.

Here in Australia I think it is definitely a mentality of "breast is best" and the "lactivists"/breastfeeding lobby can be a bit militant and overbearing to vulnerable new mums. I definitely plan to breastfeed my baby (for me it is about the bonding, the way I have always seen motherhood in my head, the health benefits to bub, and budget), but I really hope that I won't fall prey to the guilt trip if I can't. I'm a paediatrician myself, and I definitely see the flipside of the "breast is best" campaign - in exhausted, teary, guilt-ridden mothers with underfed, hungry, screaming, irritable babies failing to thrive, who have been pushed and pulled by others who "know best". I freaking HATE the militant breastfeeding lobby who prattle on about "nipple confusion" and triumphantly gloat that "nary a drop of formula passed my baby's lips". There is an agenda there that is NOT entirely in babies' best interests, and it always evokes a reaction in me on the same spectrum as the militant "birth-planners" who place vaginal examinations on the same spectrum as rape and whatnot (although that is a story and an argument for another day!).

I also hate cup feeding and syringe-feeding. How those who advocate for it can be militantly anti-bottle/pacifier but pro-baby choking/being unable to handle thin liquids in their mouths/milk spluttering out noses is beyond me. Feed the baby, and feed the baby safely with at least a modicum of respect for the primitive reflex that is designed to nourish the child, regardless of the fact that sucking the breast is different from the bottle.

On another point, I think that public breastfeeding might be a little more accepted here than it sounds like it is in the States.

Whilst at a population level, breast IS best, who is anyone to argue with the millions and millions of healthy ex-bottlefed members of society running around doing great things? If I can't breastfeed for whatever reason, I'm sure I will grieve for the loss of it, but if anyone dares to criticise me, I fully intend to give them a withering glare and ask them who the hell they think they are for commenting!

OK, off soapbox now

 

[Bliss]

Anyone who pumps is a SAINT!!!! Huge props!!!!!!!!!!! Skippy, your boys are sooo lucky!!!!! I know if I had twins and was running back and forth to visit one in the hospital, I would not have stuck with it for as long as you did. THAT IS LOVE! WOW!!!!! And for everyone who EP'd, that is way harder than EBF! WOW!!!! Such dedicated amazing moms! THAT is so amazing!!!!!!!!!!!! I think that is more commendable than EBF.



Inside, I'm kind of jealous of all the moms who formula feed because their babies seem to sleep so soundly at night. I guess it's a "grass is greener" kind of thing. I know if I didn't have support about EBF, I wouldn't have powered through the first three months. It was so hard that I wanted to quit every single day. If I didn't have the huge support from DH and work, there is no way I would still be EBF today at nearly 10 months. And then I wouldn't have this special bond with her and have enjoyed our special times together. Every time I looked at that can of formula and read & re-read the ingredients: powdered vegetable oil, high fructose corn syrup... I would put it down again. I just felt bad giving it to her so early! But now, I feel 100% OK about giving her formula because she's had so much BM. I just wish she would drink the formula because she keeps rejecting it. I guess I will let her wean herself! WHEN WILL I HAVE A LIFE AGAIN??? LOL

Sometimes I feel guilt even now thinking about weaning early because I'll read articles about how it'll help protect her from cancer, heart disease and etc. down the road when she becomes an adult. I figure if I can, I should. My goodness, when do the internal struggles ever end? Being a mommy isn't easy! I struggle with it sometimes because I do want a life!!! Then again, I am sure I'm going to miss it terribly when she weans. Ahhhh, the answers never come easily!

At work, there are some people who do say, "You're still BFing?!?!? How old is the baby??!?" But most people applaud me for BFing. There are many women where I work who nursed past 2 years. I pump in my office so I have been lucky to have privacy. I have kept a small fridge in my office so I wouldn't have to "gross" anyone out carrying BM back and forth. But no one finds it gross anyway. One thing I do find disturbing, though: my colleague says someone tampered with her BM in one of the breakroom fridges! That's why I got my private fridge. Otherwise, everyone at work is supportive. Even when things get crazy at work, I have NO problem announcing that I have to go home and nurse my baby when it's time to do so. They know it's important to me and that's the deal.

Having come this far with my baby has been something really special. I really really love nursing her and enjoy our special bond. I'm probably going to cry when she stops nursing because she's growing up so fast! It is such a sweet time for us both. Babies are so precious!!! I want more!!!!

ETA: Oh, and I proudly nurse her wherever I go. I don't whip out the boob, but I have no issues nursing her in the baby carrier when I'm walking around with her little sleeping hood pulled up. I've nursed her many times in her carrier walking down the street in Manhattan. It may be easier to do in NYC since no one notices!

ETA: I agree with pancake about the militant women! They told me (and so did books) never to introduce a nipple too early! Well, it totally backfired and now M won't take ANY bottle! ARGH!!!!! ONLY PREFERS THE BOOB!!! RUINED MY LIFE! I did try cup feeding because I wanted to make sure she would drink BM in SOME form if I had to be away more than 2 hours. And surprisingly, she loved it! Lapped up the milk like a little kitty! SO CUTE! ANYWAY...I'm doing things soooo differently with my next one!!!!! I'm going to listen to MYSELF and not the books and militant LCs! Although, I do understand the pride some women feel about EBF and EP... it is such a tremendous sacrifice and labor of love, I think they are just proud that they did it for their babies. You kind of have to feel strongly about not giving your baby formula or else there is no way in heck you will do it for that long. But that is how they feel about *their* babies, and isn't a judgment about other babies. Plus, first time parents are wacko anyway!

 

[Logan Sapphire]

To me, it's very interesting how much guilt can factor into a woman deciding to bf. I suppose I could've induced lactation for our adopted daughter, but I never considered it for a variety of reasons (didn't know how old child would be at adoption so didn't know when to induce lactation, child had never been breastfed and didn't know how to latch, etc.). I never once felt an ounce of guilt b/c basically I had no choice but to formula feed. I had no idea there were wars over bfing vs. formula feeding. With my son, it was an entirely different story- I felt extremely guilty direct nursing didn't work out, felt like I had given up too easily, felt like no one understood what it was like to EP, had nursing mothers give me crap about EPing b/c they didn't understand what goes into it, etc. I'm sorry to say that it was 50% guilt, 50% a big F you that kept me EPing.

 

[Bliss]

To me, it's very interesting how much guilt can factor into a woman deciding to bf. I suppose I could've induced lactation for our adopted daughter, but I never considered it for a variety of reasons (didn't know how old child would be at adoption so didn't know when to induce lactation, child had never been breastfed and didn't know how to latch, etc.). I never once felt an ounce of guilt b/c basically I had no choice but to formula feed. I had no idea there were wars over bfing vs. formula feeding. With my son, it was an entirely different story- I felt extremely guilty direct nursing didn't work out, felt like I had given up too easily, felt like no one understood what it was like to EP, had nursing mothers give me crap about EPing b/c they didn't understand what goes into it, etc. I'm sorry to say that it was 50% guilt, 50% a big F you that kept me EPing.

You are an amazing mom, Logan Sapphire. Sometimes nursing doesn't work out. There is NO reason to feel guilt ever and I kind of wish I didn't feel guilt about it, either! EP is, in my opinion, way more awesome than EBF. That is Amazing with a capital A. If I had to EP, I wouldn't have made it past a month! I am laughing about your 50% guilt, 50% F you that kept you EPing!!! You rock!!!! Sometimes I wonder why people make a distinction? Either way, the baby's getting BM so what's the difference? EP is just incredibly harder and requires more of a sacrifice in my book! I am awed by you EPing moms.

I guess for me, I would have felt guilty if I didn't breastfeed only because I had ample supply. Formula feeding would have been the easier thing to do by far. DH could have taken over the nightly feedings so I would get more sleep, I would have had more freedom, the baby would have slept better at night...the list goes on and on. Sometimes I jokingly tell DH that the next baby is getting formula from the beginning! So yes, this is the only reason why I felt guilt. If I had chosen formula, the only reason would have been for my own convenience.

Because if I chose *me* over the pooper, I would have chosen formula hands down. No contest. Again, this is because I had the choice. I would feel NO guilt if I could not produce enough. I actually had the problem of oversupply, so I had too much. So if I was giving my baby formula because it was easier for me, but would not be as good for her healthwise, I would feel guilt about putting my need for convenience before her health. Heck, if I chose my needs above hers, I would totally work fulltime and hire a nanny!!! I was telling my friend this today at lunch. I love my job!!! But I feel like she is little for only so long and she needs me now. So I cut back on work to spend time with her so she has a parent with her at all times. I want her to be cuddled and have kisses all day long. This comes at a great sacrifice to me because I like to work!!!! I like my adult time!!!! I like to eat in peace!!!! But when she's in school, Mama's gonna paaaaarrrrrrtaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!! I keep telling myself that she's only little for so long - a blink of an eye! And soon I will miss this brief time when she needed me the most. Awwwww... Anyway, the point is, we moms make so many sacrifices all the time. Sometimes guilt motivates us, sometimes it's just pure love. Either way, as long as mama and kid are happy, it's all good in my book.

I guess on the other side, there is a fine line between sacrificing too much and that needs to be watched as well. I don't want to give so much that I'm not a good parent. I do believe firmly in taking care of oneself so that one can be a good parent and partner. It's a fine line and I struggle with it at times, though! I think all mothers do. At least, my friends and I do - and we come from all different backgrounds with different parenting philosophies! Ahhhh, being a parent is tough either way. No way around it. Tough decisions all the time! I definitely struggle with some decisions and EBF was at the top of the list.

ETA: I echo what Pandora said. In NY, all the crazy supermoms who are well off by marriage or by career either EBF or EP. They even color code their babies' poop on charts and etc! I think it is absolutely a socioeconomic issue. There is NO way a woman can EBF or EP without financial support, good jobs with nursing support for working moms and stable home lives with a supportive partner. It would be almost impossible to EBF or EP without these things.

 

[Pandora II]

In the UK (in good hospitals), the LCs will come round to check all babies for tongue-tie and help with any breastfeeding issues within the first 24 hours.

They absolutely would not use formula the way that it was used on you - that would be very, very frowned upon. They would likely use a hand pump or help you to hand express some colostrum and use that instead.

Regarding jaundice, breast-fed babies tend to have it a bit longer than FF (up to 3 weeks up to birth is possible). Generally jaundice doesn't need to be treated unless bilirubin levels are more than 20. It will resolve on it's own but many parents and doctors panic and can treat it in a overly aggressive way. I think this is probably more common in the USA due to a more litigious culture.

In breastfed babies, bilirubin levels tend to be higher than in formula-fed anyway - possibly due to a factor in breastmilk promoting reabsorption into the bloodstream rather than it all going to the liver, as well as lower milk intake due to initial problems with establishing nursing.

Some of the things that they have done here that reduce the risk of severe jaundice are things like rooming-in and feeding-on-demand (at least 12 times a day in the first couple of weeks if they have jaundice). Waking the baby regularly to nurse is also important as jaundice can make them sleepy. There are also photo-optic bilirubin blankets that can be used at home and while nursing rather than sticking the baby in a hospital nursery under the lights.

I looked up the numbers regarding babies who developed Kernicterus (the brain-damage that can occur as a result of very high bilirubin levels) and found that between 1984 and 2002, there were 125 cases in the USA - around 7 a year, which when you consider that 60% of newborns have jaundice, it really is incredibly rare.

Oh, the reason I know quite a bit about jaundice is due to my husband having Hereditary Spherocytosis, a rare blood cell disorder where the blood cells are round rather than doughnut shaped and carry much lower levels of haemoglobin and thus oxygen. The spleen recognises these mis-shaped cells as old cells and kills them, so it is working overtime and there are much higher levels of bilirubin for the body to get rid of. It's a co-dominant condition so any child we have has a 50/50 chance of having it. Two of my BILs also have it - one has semi-permanent jaundice - my husband has it the worst and had to have his spleen and gall-bladder removed in his teens.

Daisy has fortunately tested negative, but she had cord bloods done at birth and she was watched for signs of severe jaundice.

There is also a lot of potentially 'over-caution' over taking certain meds while you are breast-feeding. I take Lamotrigine which is an anti-epileptic also used in bipolar disorder, and a 6mg morphine equivalent of opiates everyday. I cut the lamotrigine down to 25mg during the first 14 weeks while the palate formation was completed (some suggestions it 'might' increase the incidence) and then went back up to 125mg. The opiates remained the same throughout the pregnancy and afterwards. I was aware that D would be opiate dependent at birth and a care plan was in place from when I got pregnant. She was treated for withdrawal for 48 hours and had no adverse reactions or any negative effects (she was talking at 7 months, walking at 10 months and is way ahead on all milestones to the extent that if the meds have slowed her development I don't want to know what I would have been dealing with - she is already too clever for her own good!)

The hospital officially advised me not to breastfeed while taking lamotrigine, due to a tiny risk of Steven Johnson Syndrome (a rare but potentially fatal rash) but I decided to do so after doing a lot of research and speaking to many women at the Epilepsy Society who had done so on much higher doses than me. I explained the findings to the hospital and their response was that officially their recommendation stood, but their personal and non-official feeling was that I was making the right choice. Regarding the opiates they said that I had the green light there as the passover amount in breastmilk is miniscule compared with the 100% passover through the placenta.

With any med I take, or things like alcohol and caffeine, I check the percentage present in breastmilk and err on the sensible side of caution rather than just having a blanket ban.


FWIW, I firmly believe that nipple confusion is a load of codswallop. I did cup-feed Daisy at first and she did seem to prefer it, but I wanted her to take a bottle so I could occasionally leave her with DH for a few hours and so he could enjoy feeding her, so I gave her one after a week. She firmly preferred boob, but would take it if the other option wasn't there. I always advise friends to introduce the bottle before 6 weeks otherwise it's more likely they will refuse it.

Skippy, there are ways of getting your supply up but they are time consuming and I'm not sure you can do it with just pumping. Basically you go to bed with the baby for 48 hours and do NOTHING but feed them - also known as a 'nursing vacation'. It works very well if your supply is really starting to drop.

Breastfeeding is such a huge committment and there are so many variables that can go into making it a positive or negative experience. Just things like your child's nursing 'style' can make a big difference. I got a 'shark' - dives for the nipple, latches on as hard as possible and sucks like they are starving to death for 5 minutes and then they are done. My SIL got a 'sloth' - had to be helped to latch for months, then does the suck, suck, pause for 20 seconds, suck, suck, pause for a good 40 minutes and had to be constantly woken up. When you are feeding every 3 hours or so and the 3 hours start from when the feed begins, it's a lot less onerous - although considerably more painful at the start - to have a shark than a sloth!

I really think that women in the USA need to start to protest the maternity leave situation - it strikes me as pretty impossible to encourage babies to be EBF for the first 6 months and yet expect the mother to go back to work in less that half that time. Every country in Europe manages to provide at least a year of maternity leave - businesses don't go bust as a result, young people get a chance at job experience with a temporary 1 year 'maternity cover' contract, and unless a business offers enhanced benefits (to attract good staff) then it doesn't cost them much financially either. I'm sure more women would willingly return to work in the US if they had had a year with their baby.

I will never forget a trade show I was at in Italy... one of our suppliers had come over to the September show and was pregnant and due in the November. At the following end of January show, the same supplier came round to our stand. One of the Italians asked me if he should ask about the baby as maybe it had died if she was back at work so soon. I ended up asking about the baby as the silence was becoming a bit deafening. When she explained that the baby was fine and -even worse- also back in NYC, the Italians then had a big discussion about how wrong this was, how bad for mother and baby, how could she breast-feed etc etc. I felt a bit sorry for her afterwards but we were all in such total shock to discover that a mother could be separated from a baby that young.

 

[charbie]

Hmmm, well I recently was with a few other women who had given birth around the same time that I had and all of us were BFing, but the other two were EPing. One was due to a latch issue and the other bc she said she was neurotic and needed to know the exact amount her baby was eating. I actually felt like the outcast, not them, since they could just pump, give the bottle over to their SO, and then go along. They made more milk per pump than me (it was like a competition who could pump more?) And it really stressed me out! They were like, "You don't know how much she eats? The horror!"

At my hospital, I felt no pressure to FF or BF. I just told them my preference and asked my L&D nurse when we could BF after birth, and she said we would do it after the baby was washed/weighed, and I was stitched up. She help me as we tried for about 15 mins or so, and the baby just wanted to rest. I actually didn't feel a huge pressure to give her formula when she wasn't peeing or nursing for very long. I think the nurses understood I was a FTM with no milk in yet, so the baby wasn't going to be eating and gaining weight! We made the decision to give her a few syringes of formula just to try and stimulate her, which worked. We wanted to make sure she wasn't having a urinary issue or blockage as well.

I hope that the fight between BF and FF can die down a bit. There are large amount of stress in doing either...people telling you that breastmilk equates to a higher IQ is certainly going to make a FF mom feel likke they are making their kid dumb...and people who FF telling the BF mom how their kid sleeps through the night bc their stomach is fuller longer. Id feel a loss (in my pocket!) if I had to switch to formula, but I really think its about doing what is right for your family. People are going to have to defend their decisions whenever there is a decision to be made.

 

[mayachel]

I recently came across this article about a Canadian woman's self examined life breastfeeding in Mongolia and weighing the difference in the two cultures. It gives extended breastfeeding a whole new meaning to what I think of, and I have some pretty lactivist friends in the States. http://www.incultureparent.com/2011/02/breastfeeding-land-genghis-khan/

 

[Pandora II]

Oops, I meant 60mg morphine equivalent not 6mg!

Maychel, I've read that article a couple of years ago - it's brilliant! I remember being in Nepal in the late 70's with my parents and 6 month-old brother. He started crying on a bus and two women came over and offered to feed him - my mother whipped a boob out very fast!

Interestingly, the Koran specifies that an infant has a 'right' to be breastfed and that if the woman can't then the parents must get a wet nurse. It also stipulates that a child should be breastfed for 2 years. In some countries like Sudan, Jordan and Ethiopia it is pretty common to see women openly breast-feeding in public while simultaneously coving themselves up with a hijab!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Back when I had our first two children in the '80's, educated women were expected to BF, much like today. With my first, we had just moved to a new state when I was 7 months pregnant so I had no friends or support. My first baby could not latch, would scream, and I got so sore I was crying while trying to feed him! I was exhausted and in pain and with a hungry screaming baby, you just do what you have to do. So he was given formula. I don't know if electric pumps even existed back then, but I couldn't get anything from a hand pump, and that was extremely painful, too. Good news is, the child survived and was fine, rarely sick, stayed thin, etc. Second baby was able to be breastfed successfully. There were a very few weeks that I tried going back to teaching and she was given a bottle of formula during the day and I breastfed all other feedings. I decided I didn't want to miss that time with my kids so I quit working and was able to go back to exclusively BFing and weaned her to a cup from 10-12 months. It never occurred to me to go longer than a year, and I still would do it the same way today.

Fast forward to today...our oldest daughter (the one who was BF) is expecting her first baby any day. She has all the idealistic expectations that I did, except she'll have a good breast pump and hopes to do that during her planning period at school when she has to go back at 12 weeks. I hope everything will work out as she hopes, but I told her that her sanity was very important for the baby's wellbeing, and if the baby had to have formula during the day while she works, it would be okay. And this thing about no paci for the first few weeks is news to me. That was never an issue whatsoever with us and I much preferred her using a paci than sucking her thumb which is harder to stop!

Both of my kids were healthy and were not different in terms of sickness or overall health. The third child was adopted and was obviously on formula when we got her at 6 months. She was very healthy,too. None of them was in day care before 2 years or later. I think going to daycare early results in more exposure to illness, and that may have skewed the results of the studies that say BF babies are sick less. Because moms who BF longterm may be more likely to be taking a longer leave or are SAHM's.

I think BFing is best when it works out. But I understand well why it doesn't sometimes. And yes, it annoys me for people to exhibit such pride that THEY are the best moms because they BF til the child is 27 or something!

And those of you who managed to EP are amazing!!!! I can't even imagine it! Skippy...you especially with one baby at home and one in the hospital!!! Wow!!!

 

[mayachel]

Pandora-Thanks for that extra information! I'm big into cultural differences on birthing/mothering traditions and hadn't known about that. I worked as a Midwife for two years with a predominantly Muslim population and knew that they would say "we all breastfeed of course" but didn't know there was a specific precedent for it.

 

[nfowife]

I feel like the general population in the US is uncomfortable with breastfeeding, for sure. But like others, in my peer group, it's almost the opposite. The norm is to breastfeed a year and if not, people do wonder why.
I nursed my first two until a little over a year and will do the same with my 3rd (only a month to go until the 1 year mark, hooray! I am ready to be done).

 

[beesha77]

I ebf'd my first for 13 months and ebf'd my twins for 13 months. I haven't encountered a whole lot of negativity but i also dont see a whole lot of people nursing their babies here. And i didnt make a habit of nursing the twins in public cuz i always nursed them together and there was no hiding nursing two babies at once! Lol! Maybe it's the area I don't know...very conservative here. My sister was one of those people that as soon as her baby got teeth she switched to formula and thought it was weird when others didn't do the same. She was always weirded out that I was still nursing the twins. But I don't really care if people don't like it. I definitely notice teenagers don't usually bf. I remember watching one of those teen moms and I was so impressed when one Of them was actually bfing. I definitely agree that BFing is encouraged but we as a society don't make it that easy to do so or make it last. I think they make it so easy to FF by sending you home with a bunch of it when you leave the hospital! If I didn't have my husband (at the time) with my first I may have quit. That was so important to me to have a cheerleader during those hard times.

 

[beesha77]

I also wanted to add that anyone that pumps is a saint! I bow to you! That is two jobs to me! All the bottles etc, and then the pumping itself....you're my heroes!

 

[Dreamer_D]

My comments have little to do with the original question but I agree with Elle completely about everything she said. I also really give mad props to the pumping moms. I breastfed my first son for 12 months and plan to BF my second until he weans himself however long that is. I find breastfeeding very easy and convenient and love holding my little baby in my arms while he careeses me and nurses And I am fortunate to live in a country where I get 12 months maternity leave and can breastfeed on demand with ease. I hate pumping and never produced anything when I pump, maybe a couple oz. Yet I exclusively breastfed two very big healthy babies -- my 4.5 months EBF baby weighs 20lbs! Obviously pumping production is different than BFing production. But if I had to pump, I don't know if I could do it. So my hats off to the women who make that commitment.

On the original topic, the attitudes where I live are pretty positive, but my circle is pretty high SES. And I have not BF a baby (yet) who is over 12 months. I hope to BF my younger son for 18mo to 2 years -- planned to with Hunter but he weaned himseld when I dropped the miday feed once I returned to work -- and I imagine reactions will be a little different then.

But I did scare and old man away because I was BFing once I was in a mall and sat in a comfy chair in the atrium and he was about 3 feet away. Once I started nursing, discretely, he left

Skippy its likely you still have some milk in your breasts, I did for a long time after wearing. I believe if you want to bring your supply back you just nurse your babies! There is also a drug you can take to bring in your milk.

 

[makemepretty]

You can find a study that says anything.

My mom was poor she breastfed but one of us ended up having powdered milk used sometimes when she didn't feel like breastfeeding. Is that one child less smart or less healthy? Nope. He's an engineer and the one who hardly ever gets sick.

Family values, loving home and furthering your education matter tons more than if you're breast fed or not. Otherwise, poor third world countries would be filled with brilliant super healthy people because they don't have a choice if they want to breast feed or formula feed.

 

[makemepretty]

I don't think society really cares one way or another if a person breastfeeds. Just some are not comfortable with the human body and don't want to see it happening in front of them like many other natural things in life. It's not a judgment, it's not personal.