Negative attitudes about breastfeeding...

[Pandora II]

You can find a study that says anything.

My mom was poor she breastfed but one of us ended up having powdered milk used sometimes when she didn't feel like breastfeeding. Is that one child less smart or less healthy? Nope. He's an engineer and the one who hardly ever gets sick.

Family values, loving home and furthering your education matter tons more than if you're breast fed or not. Otherwise, poor third world countries would be filled with brilliant super healthy people because they don't have a choice if they want to breast feed or formula feed.

You can always find A study that says something, but when lots all say the same thing then it's generally because it's true.

Being breastfed won't mean you are never ill, but it does very significantly reduce the incidences of things like ear-infections and gasteroenteritis in babies as well as increasing the efficacy of vaccinations. This is due both to the make-up of breastmilk, the sucking mechanism used by the baby and the fact that breastmilk is sterile. (I can give you links to a load of studies if you are interested.)

As far as studies being skewed by differences in socio-economic status re whether women can be SAHM or whether the child is in daycare, I don't think this is a problem - a lot of the studies were conducted in European countries where a year is the norm for maternity leave.

Breastfeeding also reduces the risk of breast cancer for the mother.

In the third world, breastfeeding is often the difference between life and death and so a breastfed baby will almost always be healthier than a formula fed baby there.

Anecdotal accounts don't really count - my husband and his brother were both FF, both went to Oxbridge... doesn't prove that FF babies are brighter.

This isn't an antiformula post, and in the first world there is little difference on an individual level, but there are definite advantages to society as a whole in having as many babies breastfed as possible.

 

[partgypsy]

At least for the US, I find most people think you should breastfeed. HOWEVER, no one actually thinks we should support women to do this. We tell them "breast is best", we guilt them for using formula, and then we make them feel like perverts if they breastfeed in public or for what they consider to be "too long." Oh, and we provide them little to no time before they go back to work, no place to pump AT work, and shun them until they have to BF in a car or dirty bathroom.

So from my experience, women should magically be able to feed all of their babies, stop at the exact socially acceptable day, never do it in public (so don't leave your house!), and be ashamed if we can't manage to pull it off. Sometimes I'm convinced we hate the women in our country.

Sorry I'm a bit heated about breastfeeding today. I'm full term pregnant, and due to a shingles outbreak, I may not have the option to breastfeed, which breaks my heart. Fortunately, I know my baby will be happy and healthy regardless of whether or not I can feed him with my breast!

This. There is verbal acceptance but in practice it seems frowned upon.

 

[megumic]

I mean, this is beyond unreasonable. How can a judge say the law doesn't apply in his courtroom??? I work for a judge and this is just absurd:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/11/judge-tells-breastfeeding-mother-that-laws-dont-apply-in-court/

 

[Haven]

I think women should feel comfortable breastfeeding whenever and wherever they need to feed their child.

I'm not a mom, but I wanted to share that I am a 31-year-old who has lived in the USA for my entire life, and (outside of my own mother) I don't think I have EVER seen a woman breastfeeding a baby. Never, ever, ever. Not in public. Not at work. I've lived in Chicago, and in heavily populated suburbs just north of Chicago, and in Champaign-Urbana, and I've not seen a mother breastfeed her baby even once.

Isn't that strange? Women are allowed to breastfeed in public, but I wonder how comfortable they would feel doing so since it is so uncommon. At least around here.

 

[Laila619]

Haven, I've been breastfeeding for nearly a year, and you know what? I've never nursed in public once!

I think that's really sad. I guess I just feel like people will stare or think it's weird, even though there is absolutely NOTHING weird about nursing a baby! I wish it would be so common that no one would even look twice. After all, no one would look twice if a mom were on a park bench feeding her baby from a bottle.

 

[Jennifer W]

Laila, strike a blow for the cause - go out today and feed (discretely) somewhere public! Go on, if no one does it, it will never change! Even if you never do it again, do it today (or ignore me lol). You never know - it might just make another woman think hey, I can do that too. It could go viral...

 

[Porridge]

I mean, this is beyond unreasonable. How can a judge say the law doesn't apply in his courtroom??? I work for a judge and this is just absurd:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/11/judge-tells-breastfeeding-mother-that-laws-dont-apply-in-court/

Absurd is exactly what it is

 

[Pandora II]

Even more absurd is that the writer of the article obviously thinks that the woman shouldn't have done so either.

A female MP I know openly fed her baby on the benches in the Chamber the Houses of Parliament. No-one said a thing. However there was a row because she couldn't carry the baby through the voting lobbies (David Blunkett's guide dog is the only living thing other than an incumbent MP that has ever passed through the lobbies).

Here in London I don't think that there are many days I don't go out and see a woman nursing in public. Women did need to take a stand to legalise and normalise it here - plenty of group nurse-ins and negative publicity for any restaurant, cafe or other public space where a woman was asked not to nurse. Perhaps the same needs to happen in America? It's so sad a woman would feel she needed to hide away as if she was doing something 'dirty'.

I find the juxtaposition with parts of the Muslim world very interesting - the USA is a country where breasts can be seen everywhere from advertising bill-boards, magazines and even the clothes that people wear, yet breastfeeding in public is hidden away as something shameful. In places like Jordan, women dress modestly, bill boards and magazines do not show breasts and yet flashing a boob in the process of feeding a baby is totally acceptable.

 

[Porridge]

I find the juxtaposition with parts of the Muslim world very interesting - the USA is a country where breasts can be seen everywhere from advertising bill-boards, magazines and even the clothes that people wear, yet breastfeeding in public is hidden away as something shameful. In places like Jordan, women dress modestly, bill boards and magazines do not show breasts and yet flashing a boob in the process of feeding a baby is totally acceptable.

Great point.

I see women breastfeeding fairly often too, it doesn't seem to be taboo here. The very thought that a woman should feel ashamed or embarrassed about needing to feed her baby is just ridiculous.

 

[Laila619]

Laila, strike a blow for the cause - go out today and feed (discretely) somewhere public! Go on, if no one does it, it will never change! Even if you never do it again, do it today (or ignore me lol). You never know - it might just make another woman think hey, I can do that too. It could go viral...

I know, I'll have to make myself do it at least once or twice. Who knows, maybe I'll become more comfortable with it and the days of hiding out in the car will be over!

 

[charbie]

DO IT, LAILA! Its quite liberating if I must say so myself. I've now fed in two restaurants, and no one really noticed.
Pandora- I wonder if it is the over sexualization of breasts that makes it taboo in the US. People are so used to breasts being sexualized that they forget the actual purpose of them.

Had a conversation yesterday that was quite timely...a lady in my office asked about my baby and then randomly said her DIL is nursing her grandson at 16 months and she wished she would stop. It was a customer, so I couldn't really question her on it, but she went on to say the baby was skinny and she thought it was bc he was nursed too long. Huh.

 

[Laila619]

a lady in my office asked about my baby and then randomly said her DIL is nursing her grandson at 16 months and she wished she would stop. It was a customer, so I couldn't really question her on it, but she went on to say the baby was skinny and she thought it was bc he was nursed too long. Huh.

Charb, oh dear! See, that is what I mean about negative attitudes. What a shame.

 

[Bliss]

Nurse proudly, ladies!!!! I see lots and lots of women nursing their babies in public. In the first three months, before I got the hang of nursing M in my sling, I did it in Central Park on a blanket...on a bench...in restaurants...everywhere! I used a pretty nursing cover, but if M yanked it aside, I didn't mind the millisecond my breast was in plain view. Maybe because I live in a baby friendly part of Manhattan I feel like everyone nurses in public. People smile and no one stares. Very baby friendly on the UWS!

The only time I felt mildly indignant is walking with M in a sling nursing her...you cannot see anything on street level but there were two guys in a big delivery truck up high and they started honking and catcalling me. I guess you could "see" part of the breast from a higher perspective, but not much of it! I felt soooo sorry for them. I mean, how sick do you have to be to think breastfeeding is sexy enough to CATCALL?!?!???? And how hard up do you have to be to CATCALL a woman breastfeeding? Those men must never get any nookie!!! LOL!!!! If seeing an inch of side boob was that big of a deal to them, I feel sorry for them!!! They need to get girlfriends...and grow up!

 

[bee*]

I'm not a mom, but I wanted to share that I am a 31-year-old who has lived in the USA for my entire life, and (outside of my own mother) I don't think I have EVER seen a woman breastfeeding a baby. Never, ever, ever. Not in public. Not at work. I've lived in Chicago, and in heavily populated suburbs just north of Chicago, and in Champaign-Urbana, and I've not seen a mother breastfeed her baby even once.

Isn't that strange? Women are allowed to breastfeed in public, but I wonder how comfortable they would feel doing so since it is so uncommon. At least around here.

That is unusual. I see quite a few women breastfeeding in public, the last time being yesterday in the gym cafe. I find in Ireland women tend to be modest and cover up when doing it but when I go to my parent's house in France the women there are so open about it. I think it's great that it's so accepted.

 

[swimmer]

Maybe the distinctions are in urban and suburban areas and not just the US and beyond? I see women bfing all the time in Boston but I'm not certain that I would have noticed it before I was pregnant and thinking about it. When DS weighed less I bf'd him in a sling on walks around our reservoir daily and no one knew. Most of the time the other moms didn't even notice that he wasn't just sleeping and he is a noisy eater. Sigh, I think he just finished nursing 2 days ago, he stopped asking for it...well, we had a good run of 18mths.

 

[Pandora II]

Maybe the distinctions are in urban and suburban areas and not just the US and beyond? I see women bfing all the time in Boston but I'm not certain that I would have noticed it before I was pregnant and thinking about it. When DS weighed less I bf'd him in a sling on walks around our reservoir daily and no one knew. Most of the time the other moms didn't even notice that he wasn't just sleeping and he is a noisy eater. Sigh, I think he just finished nursing 2 days ago, he stopped asking for it...well, we had a good run of 18mths.

Part of me feels a bit of envy there. I am at the point where I'm pretty ready to be done and D has made it uber-clear that she is not. I sometimes wish she would ask for a cuddle without invariably following it up 20 seconds later with 'milk?'...

Here I don't see much difference between urban/suburban, but there are big differences between age groups - teens FF, older women breastfeed and socio-economic levels. It's probably more obvious in urban areas - in London most people use public transport so there's no option of hiding in the car to feed... nope, we all go to Starbucks! Literally I have never been in a London branch of Starbucks without tripping over a Bugaboo and a least one woman breastfeeding!

Does the 'Breastfeeding Friendly' initiative exist in other countries yet? Here malls, shops and cafes will often have a sticker in their window to say that they are 'Breastfeeding Friendly Places' and make it easier for mothers by providing things like comfortable seating, water etc.

 

[swimmer]

Pandora, I was feeling that way about two weeks ago when he ran over to me and started pulling off my shirt while signing and saying milk milk.. Then he just got distracted a few times and DH got him up in the am instead of me and that seems to have done it. I go back and forth though, missing the closeness but liking the freedom. I think the real secret behind bf'ing is that they keep that awesome new baby smell longer...just intoxicating.

Yes, the baby-friendly initiative is alive and kickin' over here. There are nursing lounges in all department stores at my mall, I avoid Starbucks, they torture their coffee before serving it (why burn such good beans!?!) but all the local independent coffee shops that I stroll to have baby changing stations, and either an area or the expectation that you can bf in peace there. My favorite sandwich place- really you pretty much have to be nursing a baby there or you can't get in. I pity the young men there on a laptop, so many mamas with and without hooter hiders doing their thing and all those strollers to sneak by. But the shop owner is all about it, he caters to his mommy crowd as we pay and don't stay very long unlike the "one coffee buys me 9 hours of internet cafe seating" folks. Sigh, I once was one of them.

 

[Bliss]

Pandora, I think I also have a little one who is going to want to BF forever, too!!! On one hand, I think it is insanely sweet and I love our cuddle sessions. But I'm old and need to get moving on #2. I was 34 when I had M and am 35 now. We want to have our second once M is one, but I want to let her wean naturally. What to do, what to do? I have visions of her shoving aside her little sibling to get to mama's boobie fountain! My mom says I'm in for a doozy!!! M is very attached and bonded to me... how will she ever get off the boob? Argh. And I'm not looking forward to engorgement!!! It scares me more than anything!

Today I was in an infant massage class and nursed M in the middle. It was a relaxed class where babies took breaks with their mamas. I was the only one who nursed, surprisingly! The other 3 moms pulled out water and powder, even the ones with tiny infants. I was so surprised because all the moms I know breastfeed. Maybe the tide is turning? I was shocked to be the only one nursing in such a "crunchy" class. There was a husband there and I felt like he looked at me like I was nursing a baby that was too old for breastfeeding (10 months today). Or maybe he was wistful, who knows. But he definitely whispered to his wife once I pulled out the nursing cover and nodded toward me & stared while his wife mixed up formula. I felt kind of odd for the first time in a long time nursing my baby and even wondered if they thought it was odd because she was too big to be nursed? No way!!! Really? Hmmmm, you never know! But he looked kind of sad or unhappy about it. Weird.

All the UWS moms I know are crazy pumpers or breastfeeders. There is a store called The Upper Breast Side on the UWS that is all about nursing. I know moms who have gone in there to shop for clothes and etc., and got yelled at for not nursing! I got fitted there for several bras while pregnant and again after nursing and they are very pro-nursing...to the point that I would not shop there if I didn't nurse! But if you do nurse, they are very supportive and call you to check in for any questions and etc.

 

[swimmer]

Bliss, just go gradually and there is no discomfort. Dropping one feeding at a time, there is a huge section on Kellymom of course. I know that store! My sister went there a lot, she nursed her ds till 23mths and is an attorney with a crazy schedule. Is there another place called Yummy Mummy or something like that? It was too cute. A friend of mine who lives on the UES got the eye from a guy while she was feeding her baby in the lobby of her coop, she said "do you think that I am doing is offensive?" he replied "yes, no one has ever sat on that settee before!" hilarious. That sums up the UES to me, no one cares if you bf, just don't intrude into their life in any way.

Sorry that guy gave you the eye, weird to do that in a massage class of all places! Your baby will eventually get more interested in real food than boob, I promise! but you can of course get pregnant while nursing and some people do tandem nurse. I can't wrap my brain around it, but it can be done. And you aren't that old!

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

I don't think it was appropriate to continue breastfeeding while talking to the judge, not because it's breastfeeding, but because she shouldn't have brought the child there in the first place. While I have no problem at all with women breastfeeding in public, I DO have a problem with people bringing children, including babies, to places where children shouldn't be. That includes nice restaurants and courtrooms.

The judge was an idiot though for saying that laws don't apply in the courtroom, because that's obviously not true.

 

[Pandora II]

Pandora, I think I also have a little one who is going to want to BF forever, too!!! On one hand, I think it is insanely sweet and I love our cuddle sessions. But I'm old and need to get moving on #2. I was 34 when I had M and am 35 now. We want to have our second once M is one, but I want to let her wean naturally. What to do, what to do? I have visions of her shoving aside her little sibling to get to mama's boobie fountain! My mom says I'm in for a doozy!!! M is very attached and bonded to me... how will she ever get off the boob? Argh. And I'm not looking forward to engorgement!!! It scares me more than anything!

Today I was in an infant massage class and nursed M in the middle. It was a relaxed class where babies took breaks with their mamas. I was the only one who nursed, surprisingly! The other 3 moms pulled out water and powder, even the ones with tiny infants. I was so surprised because all the moms I know breastfeed. Maybe the tide is turning? I was shocked to be the only one nursing in such a "crunchy" class. There was a husband there and I felt like he looked at me like I was nursing a baby that was too old for breastfeeding (10 months today). Or maybe he was wistful, who knows. But he definitely whispered to his wife once I pulled out the nursing cover and nodded toward me & stared while his wife mixed up formula. I felt kind of odd for the first time in a long time nursing my baby and even wondered if they thought it was odd because she was too big to be nursed? No way!!! Really? Hmmmm, you never know! But he looked kind of sad or unhappy about it. Weird.

All the UWS moms I know are crazy pumpers or breastfeeders. There is a store called The Upper Breast Side on the UWS that is all about nursing. I know moms who have gone in there to shop for clothes and etc., and got yelled at for not nursing! I got fitted there for several bras while pregnant and again after nursing and they are very pro-nursing...to the point that I would not shop there if I didn't nurse! But if you do nurse, they are very supportive and call you to check in for any questions and etc.

The longer you feed for the less engorgement seems to happen - or at least that is the way I have found it. D will still nurse every 3 hours day and night (we co-sleep) if she can have her way, just as she did when she was under a year. I went out the other week to an all-day conference followed by a dinner and wondered if being away for 14 hours would land me with engorgement and it didn't at all.

You don't have to wean to have another - I know a couple of women here who breastfed throughout their pregnancy and then tandem fed the baby and older child afterwards. Some will wean during the pregnancy (apparently the milk can change taste) and they seem to wean easier when there's a new baby apparently.

I'm shocked if someone thinks that 10 months is too big to be nursing. I occasionally worry that people will think that 2.5 years is really too big - especially in public, and then I think they would probably be less bothered by a silent nursing child than a child yelling 'Mummy, I want milk, please, please, just a lickle bit' over and over and over and getting more and more whiny by the second!

I'm also able to feed very discreetly - I dress in a way that I can. I almost invariably wear polonecks, and have done for as long as I can remember, and I got a load from a company called Mamaway that are nice enough to wear whether I was nursing or not - they have a side-section that un-poppers and means that you can feed while exposing zero flesh to the world. I generally have a cardigan or jacket on as well, so you wouldn't really know that she wasn't just asleep. She learnt to latch herself while sitting on my knee at about 6 weeks old so I've never had to particularly hoik clothing about.

I also found that nursing bras were a total PITA and a screaming hungry baby and clips that needing undoing were a bad mix. Instead I wear T-shirt bras with underwires and just fold the cup back on itself. It's quick and easy and as T-shirt bras tend to be a bit padded you also never need to worry about leakage. I never bothered with Hooter Hiders or similar as D was a child who liked to look around from a very early age and she would have just yanked them off or pulled them aside in seconds - and again it's another hassle to have to arrange while your baby screams!

However, I do have a friend who appears to be incapable of feeding her kids without exposing an enormous amount of boob, tummy etc and it's all a bit of a palaver - she get's more odd looks in public than I ever did.

I found the way my thoughts changed on child-rearing after D was born quite funny. I am not particularly crunchy by any means - I'm a definite carnivore, wholemeal anything does not exist in my house, I have no time for homeopathy or alternative medicine (except accupuncture), I'm very pro-vaccination etc. I planned that I would breastfeed for about a year max, I would definitely do CIO, I'd be doing disposable nappies (no tumble drier and a tiny London flat does not really make cloth nappies feasible) I'd bought a very nice Stokke cot that she would sleep in at about 4 months once she'd outgrown the ArmsReach Mini, and didn't own a sling of any kind. My only nod in that direction was that I planned to do Baby-Led Weaning.

By the time she was 6 weeks old, we were co-sleeping, baby-wearing and I had a pile of Dr Sears books. No way was I ever going to be able to do controlled crying or CIO. I'd given up any attempts to do schedules - and honestly, we were all much happier!

 

[Bliss]

Swimmer!!!! Thank you for the advice and support!!!!! I am so deathly afraid of engorgement. The trauma I've experienced from oversupply have made me permanently afraid of engorgement. So painful and scary! I am LAUGHING over your hooter hiders description!!! THAT IS SO BRILLIANT!!!!! I am soooo using that! You are also right about babies smelling soooo good while breastfed! DH says M and I smell alike - and it is sooo yummy! Ha! And I agree about Starbucks burning coffee - it's CHARbucks to me! You are so right about the UES, that is too funny!!!! Thank you thank you, Swimmer!

PANDORA...GODDESS!!!!! I was exactly the same as you! I was all about sleep training and now I am a crunchy co-sleeper who has EBF to 10 months and counting! Who knew???? I LOVE CO-SLEEPING!!! It is one thing I will never regret and always love about her babyhood. I do secretly hope to regain the bed once she is 2...is that wishful thinking??? We tried CIO twice - and the first time, M freaked out after 40 minutes. We could clearly see her adrenaline was spiking - she was in clear distress - to the point of vomiting violently so we ended it and brought her to bed. She sleeps like an angel now! Ummm, she does tend to snack at the open bar at times, though. That keeps mama up sometimes! I guess I would eat chocolate cake if it were sitting on a pillow next to me at night. LOL... she sleeps in the crook of my arm nestled up like a sweet little bundle.

I am greatly encouraged by your info on engorgement happening less the longer one nurses. I am cracking up at Daisy demanding milk! I just think that is SO CUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you also for the VERY helpful advice about nursing gear! I LOVE that someone also understands the need for dressing differently! I can't wear turtlenecks anymore! I have to wear v-necks and draped tops... I do love the clippy nursing bras, though! The Elle Macpherson line is lacy, sexy and sooo comfy! Makes the boobs look great, too!!!

Hahahahaha, I love Dr. Sears and on your advice, we have used the sling and Ergo and the Arm's Reach co-sleeper. All excellent products that were well used and well loved! The Tummy Tub was brilliant, btw!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! I'm sure I speak for many PS moms lurking and public when I say that you have helped us sooooooo much.

 

[Laila619]

So I made it a full year of breastfeeding, yay! I breastfeeding and don't want to give it up. It's been an amazing journey so far; besides the convenience, the bonding time is very special. DS is very easily distracted these days though and always wants to be on the go go go! He'll "snack" more often than a full nursing session. Any tips for nursing a squirmy toddler? Thanks!

 

[Puppmom]

Congratulations! As I got comfortable with nursing, one year became my goal. Then, when DS hit one, I figured there was no reason to stop. And I kinda liked it... DS weaned himself at about 14.5 months. It was kinda of bittersweet to be honest.

 

[Laila619]

Thanks puppmom! It is bittersweet, isn't it. DS barely has time for me these days.

 

[Puppmom]

Maybe it wasn't the BFing but DS is so much more cuddly than the few kiddos I know that weren't breastfed. I still get lots of cuddles. Walking was the beginning of the end for us in terms of nursing. He cut me off during the day pretty quickly. The bedtime feed was next then morning was last. I was surprised because I was sure he would hang on to the bedtime feed the longest.

 

[PetitiePoire]

I'm not a mom, but I wanted to share that I am a 31-year-old who has lived in the USA for my entire life, and (outside of my own mother) I don't think I have EVER seen a woman breastfeeding a baby. Never, ever, ever. Not in public. Not at work. I've lived in Chicago, and in heavily populated suburbs just north of Chicago, and in Champaign-Urbana, and I've not seen a mother breastfeed her baby even once.

Isn't that strange? Women are allowed to breastfeed in public, but I wonder how comfortable they would feel doing so since it is so uncommon. At least around here.

That is unusual. I see quite a few women breastfeeding in public, the last time being yesterday in the gym cafe. I find in Ireland women tend to be modest and cover up when doing it but when I go to my parent's house in France the women there are so open about it. I think it's great that it's so accepted.

BEE- Where in France? I live there and am terriBly concerned with breast feeding. I have yet to see anyone actually doing it and of the 5 babies born last year all are formula fed. I've been reading up on it and it seems to be behind in France and parents are actually encouraged to just go straight to formula. It's my goal to breast feed, as I don't mind being (or continuing to be) the crazy American! Maybe it's just the area we live in?