Need ur help: which diamond is a better choice?

[meredithlaw]

i want to make a ring with one of the two diamonds, but cannot make a decision.
Which one is a better choice?
Need your advice.
Thank you!



And the price of Diamond B is 93% that of Diamond A.
Which one is a better choice?

 

[meredithlaw]

ＰＬＥＡＳＥ　　ＨＥＬＰ

 

[meredithlaw]

ＰＬＥＡＳＥ　　ＨＥＬＰ

 

[thebigjdoe]

Noob here, but from what I have learned:

No one can tell you very much without images. Both have good HCA scores. The 60/60 diamond will have more white brilliance, while the one with a smaller table should have more of a mix of brilliance and fire.

no way to get at least an idealscope from the vendor?

 

[Andelain]

I'll bet the first one turns out to be slap-your-face bright. Worth asking for an IS on both.

 

[meredithlaw]

thank you for your reply.

they cannot give the ideal-scope

 

[meredithlaw]

thank you.

working on it

 

[Andelain]

Are you tied to that vendor?

 

[Gypsy]

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[meredithlaw]

Good question!

Luckily no.


I may have other choices.


But i was a little tired of comparing different diamonds...So I just wanted to make a quick decision with your help.

you enlightened me!

thank you!

 

[meredithlaw]

thank you for your detailed answer.

i was trying to strike a balance among the 4C. Cut>Clarity>Color >Carat.

after reading your reply, i think i was looking into the wrong direction. Cut and Carat come first , then Clarity and Color. perhaps with the same amount of money, i can buy a bright larger one. right?

but i still don't want to have a yellow and nasty one.

so how should i choose the color? G? H? I? VS2? SI1?

thanks again

 

[ecf8503]

Color is subjective. Color preference is opinion. I have diamonds in colors from D down to J, and I love them all for what they are.

Is this for an e-ring or other daily wear ring?

The general opinion around here seems to be I or higher. That said, I have a 0.59ct I color, and it faces up very white. I can see some tint in my 1ct J EC, but I love it because it gives it character. One color isn't "better" than another either - just more or less expensive based on it's rarity in nature.

I'd recommend going to a jeweler that carries ideal cut diamonds (Hearts on Fire dealers, for instance - but don't buy anything! We can find you stones that are equally well cut for much less $). Get an idea of what color range you like.

As for clarity, I'd say a VS2/SI1 range is a great place to be. I'm ok w inclusions as long as they are hidden and the stone is eye clean.

If you let us know your budget we can help find you lovely stones!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Here's an example of a beautifully cut stone: http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=1017

Drops down to F color, VS2 clarity which is a great place to be!

You could drop down to a G in color and still be fine: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3061797.htm?source=pricescope

 

[Gypsy]

Well you can definitely go down to G.

As for H, yes, I think that's certainly safe. Your .5 carat diamond is going to be largely covered up on the sides by the prongs. H is very conservative still.

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H.

If you are talking fancy shapes without ideal light return (because there is no 'ideal' for EC's Radiant, etc) it's a bit different.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white, you only see the contrast because of the proximity. But it's very slight, you could set an F center with G sides and never tell the difference. And even H sides depending on the setting and the size of the sidestones... especially with round brilliants.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

 

[Xzuix]

Noob here also, but if that's the only two diamonds left in this whole wide world i'd go with the one on the right/second one. Simply because I'm not liking the crown angle on the first one.

 

[meredithlaw]

they say if it drops to VS2/SI1, the flaw may appear on the table. And it is not good to have crystal, feather or cloud in the stone. Is that true?

 

[meredithlaw]

thank you for your recommendation.

 

[meredithlaw]

I don't know whether it's my eyes or my mind. When I saw Es and Fs together, I could tell them apart correctly by the color of the light they reflected, 'cause Fs gave out more "golden" reflected light. Is there anything wrong with my eyes?

I've been focusing more on the cut. But the more data I notice, the harder for me to choose

I'll keep it in mind: cut is king!

thanks again!

 

[quaddio]

Look for reputable certifications.

 

[Gypsy]

Well, if they didn't have the same performance the difference you saw could have been due to the F being poorly cut.

Where you do you live? My best advice is this. Call your local hearts on fire dealer. Make an appointment. Tell them you want to see E-F-G-H diamonds and compare them.

That way you know you are looking at top of the line cut diamonds. Then see what your color tolerances are.

 

[meredithlaw]

you bet

 

[meredithlaw]

Good idea.

Thanks

 

[treasurehunter]

SI1 thats not in the table or black can often be eye clean and combined with a G or H color will get you a bigger diamond

 

[teobdl]

If I were forced to bet which diamond I'd like better based on the numbers, I'd choose diamond B.

But seriously, it would probably come down to optical symmetry.

I'm uncertain why Diamond B is 7% cheaper, despite being pretty much the same size, same clarity, and higher color. It could be a cut issue; it could be another one of the dozens of factors that go into pricing or a collection them. 7% is not insignificant.

Are you able to view them side by side? If so, buy with your eyes, not with the numbers.

 

[teobdl]

And unless you are very particular about color or clarity, I recommend exploring color at G or H, and VS2 or SI1 clarity (even SI2 is fine if you can inspect it). See if carat weight changes significantly for the same price. Generally, IMO, in that size anything less than 0.2mm in diameter is not worth it so just go for the higher color. But if you can get it much bigger, then don't be afraid to drop down in color and clarity as long as the cut is still great.

 

[meredithlaw]

within the budget, the bigger,the better.

thanks

 

[meredithlaw]

You are so wise!

I saw them side by side yesterday. 0.56 had a relatively clear image of hearts and arrows, while 0.51 --- poor image of H&A.

I'm confused. The numbers of B(0.51) are better than A. But why cannot them guarantee the hearts and arrows?

 

[WinkHPD]

You are so wise!

I saw them side by side yesterday. 0.56 had a relatively clear image of hearts and arrows, while 0.51 --- poor image of H&A.

I'm confused. The numbers of B(0.51) are better than A. But why cannot them guarantee the hearts and arrows?

Many people are confused about this. It is possible to have and excellent cut by GIA and not have ANY SEMBLANCE of Hearts and Arrows. It is also possible to have a diamond outside the parameters of Excellent that does display hearts and arrows. You could substitute AGS Ideal cut in the above sentence and it would also be true.

Hearts and arrows is a function of cutting a diamond so that 17 major facets are properly positioned to reflect the light in the Hearts and Arrows pattern.

However, having that pattern is not proof of Excellent to Ideal light performance. Nor is the lack of having that pattern proof of poor cutting. Many AGS Ideal cut diamonds will have no H & A pattern or at best an incomplete pattern and still be very beautiful diamonds.

The fact that the first diamond had a "relatively clear" H&A pattern only indicates that it was almost cut with the optical precision necessary to provide that pattern. Of the two diamonds you present I suspect that diamond would actually be my second choice when seen side by side with the second. Why? Because I like dispersion and I suspect that diamond A has much less dispersion than diamond B. I also suspect that it will have smaller flashes of both white and colored light than diamond B because of the longer Lower Halves.

You, however, do not have to suspect since you have seen the actual diamonds side by side?

Which one did your eyes like best? Did they really like either of them? Did your eyes like both of them? Could you see the difference? Do you need to look at many more diamonds to begin to know what you are seeing in terms of cut, or are you already adept at seeing the tiny differences?

Here is a cold hard fact. When a diamond is cut to the proper balance of angles that will return the most light to the eye and when that diamond is cut to the optical precision that returns a full and complete H & A pattern, that diamond will look incredible on paper and in the imaging devices and photos that can be provided of the diamonds in those devices. IT MIGHT STILL NOT BE THE DIAMOND THAT LOOKS BEST TO YOUR EYES.

Now, I can tell you that when the diamond is cut to that level of precision, and that the more precisely it is cut the sharper the image will be and that the sharper the image is the larger the flashes of both white and colored light are going to be from the virtual facets within the diamond and that the larger the virtual facets the larger the number of the flashes of white and colored light that will be visible to the human eye.

According to research done by the American Gem Society Laboratory a one carat diamond will display approximately 200,000 scintillation events as it is rotated 40 degrees from side to side of perpendicular. The more optically precise the diamond is cut, the more of those scintillation events will be large enough to be detected and enjoyed by the human eye. These flashes will be Very Large, Large, Medium, Small, Very Small and WAYYYYYYYYY small. (This is not the technical description given by the AGSL, this is me being too lazy to go reread my notes from Peter Yantzer's excellent presentation that he gave to the Crafted by Infinity dealers meeting in Dallas a few years ago. Peter Yantzer is the Executive Director of the AGSL.) Of those 200,000 scintillation events, perhaps 8,000 to 14,000 are detectible by the human eye, and that number is largely dependent on the precision with which the diamond is cut, provided that the angles are also correct.

In the half carat diamonds that you are looking at, the number of visible scintillation events will be much less because you are starting with much smaller flashes to begin with and they will get too small to be detectible very quickly.

Side bar: In the very small diamonds, Garry Holloway, the developer of the HCA that you mentioned earlier, once showed me a plastic case in which he had painstakingly arranged about 100 H&A melee diamonds, I think they were one or two pointers, and another case with an equal amount of diamonds of the same size that were single cuts. (Seventeen facets rather than 57)

Given what I have told you above about virtual facets and their eye visibility, it should be an obvious conclusion that the single cuts were much brighter. Yet I was surprised. I have been an advocate of top quality cutting for my entire career, since I was a student at GIA in 1975. Yet I had failed to realize that at some point, all that I know about cutting changes because of the relative insensitivity of the human eye. Garry's demonstration was a real eye opener to me.

This is part of the reason that I now firmly believe, and tell people all of the time, "Regardless of the quality of the paper and the images of the diamond, you must see the diamond to know if it is the diamond that you like!"

End side bar.

My question to you is this. You have seen them side by side. Which one did you like best? Did you like either of them well enough to buy and give to your chosen one with confidence and pride?

If yes, buy the one you like. If not, KEEP LOOKING!

Rinse and repeat until YOU are satisfied.

Wink

 

[SirGuy]

You are so wise!

I saw them side by side yesterday. 0.56 had a relatively clear image of hearts and arrows, while 0.51 --- poor image of H&A.

I'm confused. The numbers of B(0.51) are better than A. But why cannot them guarantee the hearts and arrows?

"Hearts and arrows" is not directly a result of superior performance. It is a result of precision cutting for optical symmetry. There are plenty of stones that don't have the most perfect "hearts and arrows" that perform wonderfully, and vice versa. There is a correlation to be sure, but a stone that'll be within tight margins within AGS0 and blow your socks off with perfectly symmetrical "hearts and arrows" is likely an expensive branded stone.

Neither AGS or GIA directly includes "hearts and arrows" as part of the cut grade related to light performance. In other words, it's not a category where you see "it got a 1.5 on the H&A scale."

 

[meredithlaw]

Wink, thank you so much for your detailed explanation. I'm really enlightened.

I think my decision is dominated by the numbers. So I prefer the second one.

But when I saw them side by side, the second one(0.51) appeared much smaller than the first one(0.56). I hesitated. They were both bright and sparkling. The only difference I could tell is that the second one looked "whiter" and "more transparent" than the first one. I liked them both. But I cannot afford both. If I could, I would go for one bigger one.

In my heart, I want to choose the second. In my eyes, I like the bigger one.

Within the budget, should I "shamelessly" choose the more expensive one(0.56)?