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Need some perspective

I have never had such a relationship with anyone - family or not...
 
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@nala im sorry you're going through this, ugh. lots of good advice and support in this thread and it sadly seems more common than you would think to have difficult relationships with close family.

Mine has this kind of drama going back generations. It is ridiculous. A lot of unspoken hurt all around. I had to realize I'm not going to have the kind of relationship i wsnt with certain close family members and either keep things superficial or cut them out of my life and it sucks but setting those limits was what let me get out of the drama cycles.

Best wishes to you, the hardest thing for me was realizing that there are people you love as best you can and who love you as best they can and they are going to keep hurting you or behaving badly....you can only control your side of the equation.
 
You are never required to keep yourself in an abusive relationship.

What would make this more urgent for me to exit such a relationship is the fact that my children were being subjected to it.

Because they seem to be using tactics of plausible deniability and gaslighting, I see no reason to confront these people. You know the truth. You know how they make you feel. You know how they are treating your children. It is now your right to draw boundaries accordingly.

You deserve better than what they are giving you.
 
I want to say that most of you are echoing my fears. And now I have to really take some time to start detaching myself. Thank you all.
 
We don't have this issue so much with my family, but we do with DH's. We constantly find out after the fact that there have been family gatherings that we were not invited to (mostly organized by his mother who is known to shut people out when she is angry at them - even if they don't know that she is). My approach to it has been to say to myself that people are allowed to include or not include who they want when they organize get togethers. My husband and I don't have to be at every family dinner, or lunch out, or reunion - nor do I feel compelled to invite every single family member when I am planning events. It's nice if my MIL and SIL have lunch together (and reflects nothing on me that I wasn't invited). It's nice if family get together at all, even if we are not there. The only awkward moment was a huge family party that my MIL planned where she literally did invite everyone, and all the aunts and uncles and cousins were asking her where we were. She *said* she realized that she had just forgotten to invite us (which was not true as she was mad at us at the time and making it clear in a passive aggressive way that she was mad), but honestly, it was more embarrassing for her than it was for us. Neither my husband nor I were that fussed. So I guess I would say that you get to control how upset you become when these things happen. I've found it helpful to make a conscious choice to stay away from the drama (as in, I can't control when they want to try to make it, but I can control whether or not I engage with it and contribute to it). I don't bother to confront. There's no point. It won't stop anything, it won't make it better, and it will likely only stir the pot. I find it better to just not let it rattle me and not to devote much time or energy to worrying about it.

As for the lying about stuff - again, it doesn't matter unless it harms you directly. This happens with DH's family too (lying about schooling, jobs, money, houses, who has gone to events with whom....it's all a little crazy) - and I just start conversations with "I heard from your mom that (insert blatant lie here)....congratulations!" That way it's clear where the bad intel came from if it's not true. Again, if you choose not to let it upset you, it's way more awkward for them than for you!

Hang in there. Families are all weird in their own ways. Take care of you and the rest starts getting easier.
 
cmd2014 said:
We don't have this issue so much with my family, but we do with DH's. We constantly find out after the fact that there have been family gatherings that we were not invited to (mostly organized by his mother who is known to shut people out when she is angry at them - even if they don't know that she is). My approach to it has been to say to myself that people are allowed to include or not include who they want when they organize get togethers. My husband and I don't have to be at every family dinner, or lunch out, or reunion - nor do I feel compelled to invite every single family member when I am planning events. It's nice if my MIL and SIL have lunch together (and reflects nothing on me that I wasn't invited). It's nice if family get together at all, even if we are not there. The only awkward moment was a huge family party that my MIL planned where she literally did invite everyone, and all the aunts and uncles and cousins were asking her where we were. She *said* she realized that she had just forgotten to invite us (which was not true as she was mad at us at the time and making it clear in a passive aggressive way that she was mad), but honestly, it was more embarrassing for her than it was for us. Neither my husband nor I were that fussed. So I guess I would say that you get to control how upset you become when these things happen. I've found it helpful to make a conscious choice to stay away from the drama (as in, I can't control when they want to try to make it, but I can control whether or not I engage with it and contribute to it). I don't bother to confront. There's no point. It won't stop anything, it won't make it better, and it will likely only stir the pot. I find it better to just not let it rattle me and not to devote much time or energy to worrying about it.

As for the lying about stuff - again, it doesn't matter unless it harms you directly. This happens with DH's family too (lying about schooling, jobs, money, houses, who has gone to events with whom....it's all a little crazy) - and I just start conversations with "I heard from your mom that (insert blatant lie here)....congratulations!" That way it's clear where the bad intel came from if it's not true. Again, if you choose not to let it upset you, it's way more awkward for them than for you!

Hang in there. Families are all weird in their own ways. Take care of you and the rest starts getting easier.
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I totally get that families don’t have to do everything together. Or that people can include whomever they choose. And in fact, for the first half of my life I was fine doing that because I knew that we weren’t that close. But when they pretend to be close to me, it’s harder to understand when they exclude us. They are good at pretending to care that they want us around for holidays, for example. So good that I prioritized my family for holidays rather than my friends. Even events like super bowl parties. So I have myself to blame for falling for them.
And Right now, yes, I do get upset when they lie to me, even if it doesn’t harm me directly. Why? Bc I have to wonder why people whom I consider to love me or whom I love do not trust me or want me to perceive them a certain way—a delusional way. I have to wonder wtf do they think about me? Here I thought they knew i was an open book with people I love, but they don’t seem to be reciprocating.
It would be easy to say the hell with them. But I’m not at that point. Yet.
 
nala said:
I totally get that families don’t have to do everything together. Or that people can include whomever they choose. And in fact, for the first half of my life I was fine doing that because I knew that we weren’t that close. But when they pretend to be close to me, it’s harder to understand when they exclude us. They are good at pretending to care that they want us around for holidays, for example. So good that I prioritized my family for holidays rather than my friends. Even events like super bowl parties. So I have myself to blame for falling for them.
And Right now, yes, I do get upset when they lie to me, even if it doesn’t harm me directly. Why? Bc I have to wonder why people whom I consider to love me or whom I love do not trust me or want me to perceive them a certain way—a delusional way. I have to wonder wtf do they think about me? Here I thought they knew i was an open book with people I love, but they don’t seem to be reciprocating.
It would be easy to say the hell with them. But I’m not at that point. Yet.
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Nala, I agree with you completely and when/if you get to that point you will know it. You have to do what works for you and your family and while other's experience might help you gain insight only you know what is best for you.

We no longer really are involved with my dh's family. We tried. Believe me, we tried. But I wised up after a few years of inconsiderate and rude behavior on their part. I reached my breaking point with them. As did my dh. And that was well over a decade ago and I have not regretted it for a single moment. It's sad yes that we have so little to do with his family but it was for our sanity. We do not have children however so again it does not exactly mirror what you are going through. I knew when it was enough and it was a huge relief actually when we stopped having to deal with their awful behavior. Truly a huge relief. And thankfully my dh and I were on the same page and same timeline too.

We have not cut off contact per se but it is mainly limited to phone convos between my dh and his brothers and we do see his mother but she is not part of the problem. She was in the beginning but my dh made it clear to her that it would not be tolerated and if she wanted to remain a part of his (our) life she would have to treat me with respect and consideration. And she has and does and for that I am very happy and pleased because I could not bear coming between my dh and his mother and very thankful it did not come to that. I even think she has grown fond of me after 20 plus years but perhaps I am deluding myself there. But just maybe she has. :halo:

All this to say you will figure it out in due time and sometimes it takes time to reach that last straw and say I am not going to nor do I have to take this behavior anymore. You cannot control them and their actions but you can control how you deal with it and how you feel about it. (((Hugs))).
 
nala said:
I totally get that families don’t have to do everything together. Or that people can include whomever they choose. And in fact, for the first half of my life I was fine doing that because I knew that we weren’t that close. But when they pretend to be close to me, it’s harder to understand when they exclude us. They are good at pretending to care that they want us around for holidays, for example. So good that I prioritized my family for holidays rather than my friends. Even events like super bowl parties. So I have myself to blame for falling for them.
And Right now, yes, I do get upset when they lie to me, even if it doesn’t harm me directly. Why? Bc I have to wonder why people whom I consider to love me or whom I love do not trust me or want me to perceive them a certain way—a delusional way. I have to wonder wtf do they think about me? Here I thought they knew i was an open book with people I love, but they don’t seem to be reciprocating.
It would be easy to say the hell with them. But I’m not at that point. Yet.
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I wasn't actually suggesting that you say to hell with them. It's more of a quiet emotional detachment thing. Like, don't hold time open unless plans are made firmly with you (say yes to other offers around holidays and party-worthy events unless 1) you have a firm invite from family members about something specific and 2) you would prefer to spend those times with family instead of friends).

Also, try to accept that the lies are more about their insecurities than anything about you. DH had one aunt lie about her children being in medical school for *years* and if you listened to the other, all of her children are millionaire financial geniuses (the truth is that they are all middle aged, middle class, normal nice people who are embarrassed at the lies their mother tells about them). Sometimes people lie to make themselves feel better about themselves. Sometimes they have to put other people down with those lies to do that too (because they don't feel good enough with just the truth or if they can't somehow be better than you). It's not about you. It's never about you. It's not about how judgemental you are, how open or accepting you are, how supportive you are, or how loved/trusted you are. It's about their insecurity and their need to hide behind lies to feel ok about themselves.

Once you can wrap your head around that and depersonalize it, and take steps to not be victimized by it, you might find that you can still have a relationship with them but not be hurt by them. That's more of what I was trying to say.

ETA: It also helps to make a mindful effort to choose not to take it personally if they do stuff without you (even if it *is* personal). You can't be hurt if they exclude you unless you define it as hurtful, kwim? If you shrug and say, ok, maybe they wanted time to themselves without me for this one, then you won't be stuck in a place of "What have I done? Why don't they love me?" In my case, I think to myself "Ok, MIL is obviously upset about some minor thing again." And then I laugh and say to myself "Oh No Br'er Fox...Not the Briar Patch!" because if I am being totally honest, I find the drama exhausting and would prefer to spend my time with my own friends and family anyway. Plus, it always passes, she gets over it (and we almost never know what *it* is), and we all move on. I used to get hurt and upset and try to talk to her about it and it would blow up, and then I'd be angry....and it was exhausting and not worth it. Now I smile and am cordial when we are there, and I don't get too fussed when the drama spin is happening - because it's not really about me. It's just their MO. They do it to each other. They do it to their friends. So of course they'd do it to me. If you can see it that way, it hurts a lot less.
 
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cmd2014 said:
It also helps to make a mindful effort to choose not to take it personally
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My best friend once said to me laughingly : you're soooooo rude, your mil has been trying her best to insult for years now and you just refuse to do her that favour!


It was a good joke, but it sums up our own power over abusive people so well
 
kipari said:
My best friend once said to me laughingly : you're soooooo rude, your mil has been trying her best to insult for years now and you just refuse to do her that favour!


It was a good joke, but it sums up our own power over abusive people so well
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That's hilarious! (and exactly what I mean!).
 
I'm so sorry. Family can be a huge challenge and "secrets" drive me nuts. I've always been close with my two brothers, but its always been harder with my sister. When I hit college-age, I just stopped trying to have a relationship with her. I choose my "sisters" and have life-long friends from that choice. About 10 years ago, my sister reached out. We have rebuilt a relationship, but it was after much struggle and -- mostly -- hard work for her to get me to let her in.

You choose who is allowed in your life. Be civil for your mom's sake, but don't look to them in a special way. I'm not suggesting you totally cut them out, but put some distance between you and them. Keep more of your life to yourself. Rely on your friends and other more reliable folks. Time will show if they can behave in a way you can trust or you need to just keep them at arm's length.

We all, friends and family, have to earn the right to be in each other's lives.
 
cmd2014 said:
I wasn't actually suggesting that you say to hell with them. It's more of a quiet emotional detachment thing. Like, don't hold time open unless plans are made firmly with you (say yes to other offers around holidays and party-worthy events unless 1) you have a firm invite from family members about something specific and 2) you would prefer to spend those times with family instead of friends).

Also, try to accept that the lies are more about their insecurities than anything about you. DH had one aunt lie about her children being in medical school for *years* and if you listened to the other, all of her children are millionaire financial geniuses (the truth is that they are all middle aged, middle class, normal nice people who are embarrassed at the lies their mother tells about them). Sometimes people lie to make themselves feel better about themselves. Sometimes they have to put other people down with those lies to do that too (because they don't feel good enough with just the truth or if they can't somehow be better than you). It's not about you. It's never about you. It's not about how judgemental you are, how open or accepting you are, how supportive you are, or how loved/trusted you are. It's about their insecurity and their need to hide behind lies to feel ok about themselves.

Once you can wrap your head around that and depersonalize it, and take steps to not be victimized by it, you might find that you can still have a relationship with them but not be hurt by them. That's more of what I was trying to say.

ETA: It also helps to make a mindful effort to choose not to take it personally if they do stuff without you (even if it *is* personal). You can't be hurt if they exclude you unless you define it as hurtful, kwim? If you shrug and say, ok, maybe they wanted time to themselves without me for this one, then you won't be stuck in a place of "What have I done? Why don't they love me?" In my case, I think to myself "Ok, MIL is obviously upset about some minor thing again." And then I laugh and say to myself "Oh No Br'er Fox...Not the Briar Patch!" because if I am being totally honest, I find the drama exhausting and would prefer to spend my time with my own friends and family anyway. Plus, it always passes, she gets over it (and we almost never know what *it* is), and we all move on. I used to get hurt and upset and try to talk to her about it and it would blow up, and then I'd be angry....and it was exhausting and not worth it. Now I smile and am cordial when we are there, and I don't get too fussed when the drama spin is happening - because it's not really about me. It's just their MO. They do it to each other. They do it to their friends. So of course they'd do it to me. If you can see it that way, it hurts a lot less.
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I really appreciate your insight. I do. But do you realize that you just said that you prefer to spend time with your family and friends rather than your mil? You have preferences. If your friends and family started to exclude you, it would take a while before your accepted that they just don’t care for your company. That is where I was 20 years ago and was fine with it. That is where I’m headed. And no. It’s not so much the hurt. It’s the lack of sincerity that bothers me.
 
missy said:
Nala, I agree with you completely and when/if you get to that point you will know it. You have to do what works for you and your family and while other's experience might help you gain insight only you know what is best for you.

We no longer really are involved with my dh's family. We tried. Believe me, we tried. But I wised up after a few years of inconsiderate and rude behavior on their part. I reached my breaking point with them. As did my dh. And that was well over a decade ago and I have not regretted it for a single moment. It's sad yes that we have so little to do with his family but it was for our sanity. We do not have children however so again it does not exactly mirror what you are going through. I knew when it was enough and it was a huge relief actually when we stopped having to deal with their awful behavior. Truly a huge relief. And thankfully my dh and I were on the same page and same timeline too.

We have not cut off contact per se but it is mainly limited to phone convos between my dh and his brothers and we do see his mother but she is not part of the problem. She was in the beginning but my dh made it clear to her that it would not be tolerated and if she wanted to remain a part of his (our) life she would have to treat me with respect and consideration. And she has and does and for that I am very happy and pleased because I could not bear coming between my dh and his mother and very thankful it did not come to that. I even think she has grown fond of me after 20 plus years but perhaps I am deluding myself there. But just maybe she has. :halo:

All this to say you will figure it out in due time and sometimes it takes time to reach that last straw and say I am not going to nor do I have to take this behavior anymore. You cannot control them and their actions but you can control how you deal with it and how you feel about it. (((Hugs))).
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You are very lucky to have hubby! And thank you for your hugs! I. Wisening up now! And hopefully my next stage is relief!
 
rockysalamander said:
I'm so sorry. Family can be a huge challenge and "secrets" drive me nuts. I've always been close with my two brothers, but its always been harder with my sister. When I hit college-age, I just stopped trying to have a relationship with her. I choose my "sisters" and have life-long friends from that choice. About 10 years ago, my sister reached out. We have rebuilt a relationship, but it was after much struggle and -- mostly -- hard work for her to get me to let her in.

You choose who is allowed in your life. Be civil for your mom's sake, but don't look to them in a special way. I'm not suggesting you totally cut them out, but put some distance between you and them. Keep more of your life to yourself. Rely on your friends and other more reliable folks. Time will show if they can behave in a way you can trust or you need to just keep them at arm's length.

We all, friends and family, have to earn the right to be in each other's lives.
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Ty. Wise words
 
nala said:
I really appreciate your insight. I do. But do you realize that you just said that you prefer to spend time with your family and friends rather than your mil? You have preferences. If your friends and family started to exclude you, it would take a while before your accepted that they just don’t care for your company. That is where I was 20 years ago and was fine with it. That is where I’m headed. And no. It’s not so much the hurt. It’s the lack of sincerity that bothers me.
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Nala, I'm sorry - I am getting the feeling that I may have made you feel that I was minimizing your feelings or criticizing you, and I really don't mean to. You're right - I do have preferences now. I do choose to spend time with the reliable and supportive people in my life over those who are not. But I don't mean to suggest that the process of getting there was easy, because it's not. This is a place I have gotten to from hard won insights, not from an absence of hurt. Of course it takes a while to accept whatever dynamic is happening and to figure out a way to navigate it and be ok with it. I'm just hoping that you will be able to find a way there too (because it hurts when you're not). It's not easy, but it is possible. Whether it's maintaining a relationship with them but figuring out a way to put things into place to protect yourself from being hurt or choosing not to have a relationship with them, you will get there and figure this out. My only intention was to share with you what worked for me in the hope that some of it might be helpful. But you may find that what works for you is very different.
 
cmd2014 said:
Nala, I'm sorry - I am getting the feeling that I may have made you feel that I was minimizing your feelings or criticizing you, and I really don't mean to. You're right - I do have preferences now. I do choose to spend time with the reliable and supportive people in my life over those who are not. But I don't mean to suggest that the process of getting there was easy, because it's not. This is a place I have gotten to from hard won insights, not from an absence of hurt. Of course it takes a while to accept whatever dynamic is happening and to figure out a way to navigate it and be ok with it. I'm just hoping that you will be able to find a way there too (because it hurts when you're not). It's not easy, but it is possible. Whether it's maintaining a relationship with them but figuring out a way to put things into place to protect yourself from being hurt or choosing not to have a relationship with them, you will get there and figure this out. My only intention was to share with you what worked for me in the hope that some of it might be helpful. But you may find that what works for you is very different.
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No. Not at all. I really do appreciate your insight. And I didn’t think you were being dismissive. Ty for taking the time to even reply!
 
I would tend to agree with everything @cmd2014 said in her posts above.

None of us are perfect. We may not handle slights or deal with how we feel in the same ways. My guess is some of this has little to do with you but rather insecurities some may have within themselves or have issues they are dealing with. Families are complicated. If you are feeling hurt right now, is it possible for you to talk to your sisters alone and tell them how you are feeling? If you decide to do this, please also really listen to how they feel.

Also ask yourself how you will feel if these people aren’t in your life at all. Life is short. Lives can be changed in a moment. Please remember that.
 
@nala I am sorry for the pain you’re going through.

Of course I don’t know if this is the issue, but I have experienced and observed so many sibling relationships that are destroyed by jealousy and resentment. Is it possible this is what is happening in your family?

Is there something that bonds your older sisters but excludes you? For example, do they share a different father or hardship? Did you receive something from your parents or in life that they did not? Ummm ... any chance they’re even jealous of your bling? So many reasons for sibling resentment.

You said that they were verbally abusive growing up. A lot of children do this and still grow up to be kind and empathetic adults. Is there any chance you can have a heart to heart with them? Maybe one on one?

Sometimes losses are not losses even if they’re family .... but at the same time, it really is a shame when a family bond is not valued or lost. Only you know your own limits and boundaries. I hope that you keep trying to resolve issues with your family until you find success or become certain that it will cause you more harm than good. In other words, make it so that, in the future, you will will know that you did everything that you could short of sacrificing your own life. And no one should sacrifice thier own life for anyone else.

I have “let go” of beloved family members for the sake of self-preservation ... they are dead now and despite knowing differently, sometimes I wonder if I could have done more. It will always hurt and with death it becomes final. Cutting ties comes with its own price and should not be taken lightly.

In the meantime, and maybe forever, I hope that you can let their behaviour roll right over your back, but that is kind of impossible in a situation where you’re emotionally invested.

Good luck with all.
 
Nala, I haven’t read every post but wanted to say really quickly that you don’t deserve this. I have seen a lot of this from my parents’ siblings and that it is a horrible situation and you should be treated with respect and kindness. Period. You seem like a truly sincere and kind person. And people that cannot appreciate that can walk in the other direction, especially when it’s people that should know and value you. I as so sorry. It makes me angry to see good kind people being hurt by the people who should be doing exactly the opposite.
 
LLJsmom said:
Nala, I haven’t read every post but wanted to say really quickly that you don’t deserve this. I have seen a lot of this from my parents’ siblings and that it is a horrible situation and you should be treated with respect and kindness. Period. You seem like a truly sincere and kind person. And people that cannot appreciate that can walk in the other direction, especially when it’s people that should know and value you. I as so sorry. It makes me angry to see good kind people being hurt by the people who should be doing exactly the opposite.
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That’s incredibly nice of you to say. Ty..
 
Calliecake said:
I would tend to agree with everything @cmd2014 said in her posts above.

None of us are perfect. We may not handle slights or deal with how we feel in the same ways. My guess is some of this has little to do with you but rather insecurities some may have within themselves or have issues they are dealing with. Families are complicated. If you are feeling hurt right now, is it possible for you to talk to your sisters alone and tell them how you are feeling? If you decide to do this, please also really listen to how they feel.

Also ask yourself how you will feel if these people aren’t in your life at all. Life is short. Lives can be changed in a moment. Please remember that.
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Sorry I’m just now replying. Since the last post, 3 of my sisters have completely Iced me out. I was contemplating taking a break myself, but it turns out they had their own plans to avoid me. One sister reached out to me but doesn’t acknowledge the conflict. My mom seems to be ok with it too, as she doesn’t insist that we mend our relationship anymore. Maybe she is giving us time. I’m using this break to reflect on what I miss about our relationship. So far, The only thing missing is drama and a group chat. Lol. But really. I realize that Since I was never invited to outings with them, and the holidays are over for a while, this break hasn’t really impacted me. Ty all for your support. Will keep reflecting.
 
nala said:
Sorry I’m just now replying. Since the last post, 3 of my sisters have completely Iced me out. I was contemplating taking a break myself, but it turns out they had their own plans to avoid me. One sister reached out to me but doesn’t acknowledge the conflict. My mom seems to be ok with it too, as she doesn’t insist that we mend our relationship anymore. Maybe she is giving us time. I’m using this break to reflect on what I miss about our relationship. So far, The only thing missing is drama and a group chat. Lol. But really. I realize that Since I was never invited to outings with them, and the holidays are over for a while, this break hasn’t really impacted me. Ty all for your support. Will keep reflecting.
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{{{{Big hugs}}}}, @nala
Hang in there!! You’ll find your place in all of this, and do what you need to do for you & your family. Just take all the time you need! You’ll get there!!! :kiss2:
 
nala said:
Sorry I’m just now replying. Since the last post, 3 of my sisters have completely Iced me out. I was contemplating taking a break myself, but it turns out they had their own plans to avoid me. One sister reached out to me but doesn’t acknowledge the conflict. My mom seems to be ok with it too, as she doesn’t insist that we mend our relationship anymore. Maybe she is giving us time. I’m using this break to reflect on what I miss about our relationship. So far, The only thing missing is drama and a group chat. Lol. But really. I realize that Since I was never invited to outings with them, and the holidays are over for a while, this break hasn’t really impacted me. Ty all for your support. Will keep reflecting.
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Dear @nala I am so sorry. The situation sucks. Please keep reminding yourself it is them and not you and their behavior reflects on who they are and really has nothing to do with you. Sending you (((HUGS))).
 
@nala..I’m sorry you are going through this..I’m getting the feeling that because you are the youngest..there is some jealousy. You mentioned your sister telling you that her daughter got into a teaching program and you found out she wasn’t. It really sounds like there’s jealously involved...and your sister made that up....They may think you got all the attention and therefore you are doing well in life with your job, etc..and they are trying to put you down to make themselves feel better about their accomplishments. This may be way off the mark..so take this lightly as I don’t know you or your family. I only know you from here and you sound like such a nice, fun person..If it were me I would just be the nice person you are when you are around them and limit contact. If your mom says they got together..just say that’s nice. When you’re with them and it comes up..sound like you’re glad they all had a good time..Keep smiling..Most people like that that are mean are trying to get a reaction...If you don’t give them the reaction that they’re seeking they lose the power. Keep smiling and put all your time and energy into your daughter and friends who love you. :kiss2:
 
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