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Need Perspective on an Awkward Consignment Agreement

Mrsz1ppy

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Feb 23, 2012
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I am not going to name the vendor involved in this situation. I just want some advice on how to handle the termination of our relationship.

I want to sell some of my more expensive pieces. The one time I tried to sell a 3 ct Oec on Pre-Loved, it didn‘t get any nibbles, and I came to understand that trust is super important, and greater amounts are needed as the price increases. So that led me to consider consignment as a way to gain trust in the marketplace.

I approached a dealer who specializes in what I want to sell, and discussed the possibility of consignment. I gave an example of a piece I had and a price I wanted to net, before sending my collection of 40+ pieces. The vendor pushed me to reveal the prices I paid for insurance purposes, but promised that this person wouldn’t ’use it against me’ . I agreed after explaining that the purchase price was a sunk cost and has nothing to do with the market value today, and that only the IRS cared what I paid, since if I made a profit, they would want their cut.

After reviewing my pieces, I got a minimum price that would be guaranteed, although the hope was that the pieces would sell for more. I was told that I should be happy because the minimum guaranteed prices, totaled would come pretty close to getting me back what I paid. I am used to consigning where the piece is listed on a public website and I know the percentage I am paying to the vendor. This seemed upside down.

I read the consignment agreement, and the last paragraph allowed the vendor to buy any of my pieces for the minimum price at any point during the consignment. That was a deal breaker for me, as I never want to sell to a dealer unless it is a competitive situation like a sealed bid or an auction. I chose consignment because I want to sell to the end user as they pay the most. Unfortunately, removing this paragraph was a deal breaker for the vendor, and this person shipped my property back.

After I confirmed receipt, I got an email asking me to split the shipping and insurance; the total was $2700+. My initial reaction is that the vendor materially changed the terms of our agreement at the last minute, in the last paragraph of the consignment agreement, and that I never would have sent my property if that conversion from consignment to dealer sale had been explained up front. So I am disinclined to pay. But that may not be the ethical way, so I am asking the question,

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?
 

YadaYadaYada

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Did you read the consignment agreement before shipping the pieces? If so, did the original consignment agreement not include the paragraph you found to be unsatisfactory?
 

Rfisher

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Did you get to / was it available to read the complete consignment agreement before you shipped your items to the vendor?

I am suprised your items shipped to you, before the vendor asked you to split the fees.

are the fees close to what you paid to ship them there?

the whole situation sucks. For you to be misled (as it seems is the case)
I think if the rules of engagement changed to where you felt uncomfortable after the vendor had possession of your items once the vendor had your items - then yeah it seems crappy for them to ask to split the fees.

otherwise splitting would make sense.
 

marymm

Ideal_Rock
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If vendor did not provide consignment agreement to you prior to your shipping your items AND if vendor's consignment agreement form is not available on their website, then personally I would be comfortable with me bearing my shipping cost to vendor, and vendor bearing return shipping to me.

If you had the agreement before shipping OR it was available on the website, and you did not read until after shipping your items, then personally I would split the return shipping with vendor.

If somehow vendor bore the entire cost of shipping, both ways, then, yes, I would split with vendor.
 

lulu_ma

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Is this a "big" vendor or a mom and pop vendor?
 

Mrsz1ppy

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Did you read the consignment agreement before shipping the pieces? If so, did the original consignment agreement not include the paragraph you found to be unsatisfactory?

No, I wasn’t given it before shipping the pieces.
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Also I checked and this vendor does not have a NYC second hand goods sale license.
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Did you get to / was it available to read the complete consignment agreement before you shipped your items to the vendor?

I am suprised your items shipped to you, before the vendor asked you to split the fees.

are the fees close to what you paid to ship them there?

the whole situation sucks. For you to be misled (as it seems is the case)
I think if the rules of engagement changed to where you felt uncomfortable after the vendor had possession of your items once the vendor had your items - then yeah it seems crappy for them to ask to split the fees.

otherwise splitting would make sense.

The vendor covered the shipping there because the value was high and they were not comfortable with Registered Mail which was what I could do.
 
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Mrsz1ppy

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If vendor did not provide consignment agreement to you prior to your shipping your items AND if vendor's consignment agreement form is not available on their website, then personally I would be comfortable with me bearing my shipping cost to vendor, and vendor bearing return shipping to me.

If you had the agreement before shipping OR it was available on the website, and you did not read until after shipping your items, then personally I would split the return shipping with vendor.

If somehow vendor bore the entire cost of shipping, both ways, then, yes, I would split with vendor.
No, I did not have it before. I was told the pieces needed to be examined. And this vendor does not mention consignment or have the agreement on their website.

I wanted to send USPS registered which would have cost significantly less. The vendor offered to pay shipping to their office.
 

YadaYadaYada

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I find it very strange that there was not an agreement before you sent the pieces out, I have consigned items before with two different vendors and I had an agreement to review and sign before sending them anything.

I’m not sure that the vendor is being unreasonable by asking to split the shipping.
 

kenny

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No, I wasn’t given it before shipping the pieces.

Then you should not have shipped.
I know, I know ... hindsight. ::)

Did you tell the vendor you were shipping without a contract?
If so, they should have told you to wait till after reading and agreeing to the contract as is, or after the contract is modified to the satisfaction of both parties.

Something I may misunderstand ...
It sounds like you both agreed to the prices the vendor would list things for, and agreed on what you would net after the sale.
If the vendor is willing to buy it outright from you, what's the problem?
You get the exact same amount of money, only faster.
 
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LilAlex

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You have all your stuff back? I don't see an ethical issue. I see their trying to extract some cash from you post hoc without a sale. They went out on a limb for the promise of a large profit. Folks do this all the time in business. I just sold some used tires this week (kind of a different league, I know) and someone drove all the way across town. If we didn't agree on the sale in person, they can't send me a bill for their time and gas once they get home.

Are you sure you want those big numbers on this thread? Maybe have mods (@Ella) delete (and this one, too, pointing it out) None of my business, of course, and trying to tread lightly here but I know a health issue and/or treatment can impact how/what we share. Also sad to see this process unfolding -- I hope it's just a re-prioritizing; you have such lovely things.
 

Mreader

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Sounds like a very strange and stressful situation. If I am reading it correctly then the vendor doesn’t typically do consignment or actively advertise consignment…to me it’s odd that they went ahead and shipped all the items back to you then asked for $ after the fact It seems an afterthought and that it was not their original intention. In this case legally I don’t think you owe them anything - whether from a “right thing to do” - it’s so loosey-goosey I’m still inclined to say you don’t owe.
 

Mreader

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Something I may misunderstand ...
It sounds like you both agreed to the prices the vendor would list things for, and agreed on what you would net after the sale.
If the vendor is willing to buy it outright from you, what's the problem?
You get the exact same amount of money, only faster.

I think OP was saying there was “minimum” but a hope for more. So I think the idea they would priced higher to yield more profit but have wiggle room. But then if the vendor decided to buy at minimum they could which would eliminate the possibility of fetching a higher price for that item.
 

Mrsz1ppy

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Then you should not have shipped.
I know, I know ... hindsight. ::)

Did you tell the vendor you were shipping without a contract?
If so, they should have told you to wait till after reading and agreeing to the contract as is, or after the contract is modified to the satisfaction of both parties.

Something I may misunderstand ...
It sounds like you both agreed to the prices the vendor would list things for, and agreed on what you would net after the sale.
If the vendor is willing to buy it outright from you, what's the problem?
You get the exact same amount of money, only faster.

We did not agree on prices. When I have consigned before, the vendor needs to see the pieces before pricing them. I did it in person. The price given to me was a minimum, but I was assured I would probably get more. The prices averaged less than what I paid, and had no relation to the market; only reference was to what I paid. We are talking 4 Kashmir sapphires, and I was told if they didn’t sell the vendor would buy them from me at the minimum price, which was 10% more than I paid. I showed comparables to no avail.

The problem is that I do not get the same amount of money as paying a 30% commission on the retail sales price. Dealers want more of a discount if they put their money into a stone. And it was not a competitive market. I did not have other offers from other dealers.

And the vendor asked me to ship without a contract So the pieces could be evaluated.
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 23, 2012
Messages
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You have all your stuff back? I don't see an ethical issue. I see their trying to extract some cash from you post hoc without a sale. They went out on a limb for the promise of a large profit. Folks do this all the time in business. I just sold some used tires this week (kind of a different league, I know) and someone drove all the way across town. If we didn't agree on the sale in person, they can't send me a bill for their time and gas once they get home.

Are you sure you want those big numbers on this thread? Maybe have mods (@Ella) delete (and this one, too, pointing it out) None of my business, of course, and trying to tread lightly here but I know a health issue and/or treatment can impact how/what we share. Also sad to see this process unfolding -- I hope it's just a re-prioritizing; you have such lovely things.

Well good feedback! I have asked to change that post. Thank you. It’s all in the bank safety deposit box, but can’t be too careful.
 

lulu_ma

Ideal_Rock
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Sounds like your have no obligation to pay for part of the shipping. The wording in the problem clause seems kind of shady to me.
 

Mrsz1ppy

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I think OP was saying there was “minimum” but a hope for more. So I think the idea they would priced higher to yield more profit but have wiggle room. But then if the vendor decided to buy at minimum they could which would eliminate the possibility of fetching a higher price for that item.

Well put
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 23, 2012
Messages
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You have all your stuff back? I don't see an ethical issue. I see their trying to extract some cash from you post hoc without a sale. They went out on a limb for the promise of a large profit. Folks do this all the time in business. I just sold some used tires this week (kind of a different league, I know) and someone drove all the way across town. If we didn't agree on the sale in person, they can't send me a bill for their time and gas once they get home.

Are you sure you want those big numbers on this thread? Maybe have mods (@Ella) delete (and this one, too, pointing it out) None of my business, of course, and trying to tread lightly here but I know a health issue and/or treatment can impact how/what we share. Also sad to see this process unfolding -- I hope it's just a re-prioritizing; you have such lovely things.

I’ve heard too many dealers brag about buying sapphires from estates that they suspected were Kashmirs, but kept their mouth shut, getting a lab report after the deal is done. So better I think to supervise the process with the best stuff.
 

YadaYadaYada

Super_Ideal_Rock
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If the vendor specifically asked you to ship the items without a contract then I think that changes my previous answer. I don’t see how they can legally expect you to split the cost if there was never an agreement beforehand. IMO once they asked you not to sign an agreement, then they assume the risk and related costs.
 

LilAlex

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I’ve heard too many dealers brag about buying sapphires from estates that they suspected were Kashmirs, but kept their mouth shut, getting a lab report after the deal is done. So better I think to supervise the process with the best stuff.

100% agree. Many "intermediaries" do not want an informed client base or valid reports, etc. This was similar to when I would sell stuff on eBay (camera and IT stuff). eBay bots told me I was a good seller because my items always sold high -- I took many good, clear pictures and wrote detailed and accurate descriptions. But the resellers never bit; they could not flip it for a quick profit with just a better ad, etc.

I would ask Lang. We hand-delivered one thing (low/mid four figures) and they have been very professional. I gave them my target price and, after a while, they said they could get me that and I expected it to be listed for a good bit more and it ended up being listed for a lot more than I expected (such that my proceeds would be lower percent than I guessed -- I should have asked the expected sales price but did not nail that down). They may be factoring in one of their 25%- off sales. I just saw their new 40% off sale and figured my item would be in there -- but it's not. (I guess that's good news!) I don't think they are the venue for a really outstanding untreated colored stone -- their sweet spot seems to be iconic period pieces plus fine stones but not simple/contemporary with superb stones. It's more jewelry-focused than gem-focused, imo, tho' there have been some killer colored stones over the years!
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
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100% agree. Many "intermediaries" do not want an informed client base or valid reports, etc. This was similar to when I would sell stuff on eBay (camera and IT stuff). eBay bots told me I was a good seller because my items always sold high -- I took many good, clear pictures and wrote detailed and accurate descriptions. But the resellers never bit; they could not flip it for a quick profit with just a better ad, etc.

I would ask Lang. We hand-delivered one thing (low/mid four figures) and they have been very professional. I gave them my target price and, after a while, they said they could get me that and I expected it to be listed for a good bit more and it ended up being listed for a lot more than I expected (such that my proceeds would be lower percent than I guessed -- I should have asked the expected sales price but did not nail that down). They may be factoring in one of their 25%- off sales. I just saw their new 40% off sale and figured my item would be in there -- but it's not. (I guess that's good news!) I don't think they are the venue for a really outstanding untreated colored stone -- their sweet spot seems to be iconic period pieces plus fine stones but not simple/contemporary with superb stones. It's more jewelry-focused than gem-focused, imo, tho' there have been some killer colored stones over the years!

I am in discussions with them currently. Thank you for the review. Their commission is larger than the previous vendor, but no minimum price! Just a publicly posted price that I will pay a percentage of. Same deal as JBG. I just can’t travel now to deliver the pieces. They want me to pick 10 pieces, send the lab reports first, and then send the pieces. No one can price without seeing the actual piece.
 
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LilAlex

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They want me to pick 10 pieces, send the lab reports first, and then send the pieces. No one can price without seeing the actual piece.

Yes, I think I started with photos -- very clear and representative (not overselling) and a copy of the report, all by email. After review, they gave me the go-ahead to submit the piece and we were able to hand-deliver (not that this piece was too dear to mail, etc.)
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I've been watching a lot of Court Tv with Judge Marilyn Milani on youtube so take this with a grain of salt. You had no
agreement in advance to pay for their return. Paying for their return, if there was no agreement for consignment, should
have been brought up and agreed to before the items were sent. Obviously, if they had held on to your items until you
paid this would be a different situation.

I certainly don't like that last paragraph in the contract and would not agree to it. It should be only with your approval that
they buy a piece at the minimum price.

I do not know why they didn't make sure you saw their basic contract upfront. I know it might not have been that helpful
without knowing their "minimums" but at least you wouldn't have been so caught off guard.

That place doesn't seem very experienced in estate sales or they would have already dealt with this in the past.

My 2 cents
 

marymm

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After the additional info you posted, here's my take:

My assumption is that you each entered into the situation with good intentions.

Both of you failed at some basic actions that would have prevented/reduced the outlay of costs:

-- surely you were aware there would be a consignment agreement and you both dropped the ball here: even if vendor failed to provide, you also failed to obtain prior to shipping your items

-- you say you wanted to ship your items via USPS Registered Mail but for some reason you decided to let vendor make the choice -- had you stuck with your choice, you would have paid that shipping cost -- but maybe you thought vendor's shipping/insurance would be better shipping protection for your valuable items

-- do you think it is fair that the vendor should bear the entire cost of a transaction that is not going through, because both of you dropped the ball?

-- even if you decline to split the shipping cost of your items, perhaps consider offering vendor what it would have cost you to ship via USPS Registered/Insured
 

Mrsz1ppy

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After the additional info you posted, here's my take:

My assumption is that you each entered into the situation with good intentions.

Both of you failed at some basic actions that would have prevented/reduced the outlay of costs:

-- surely you were aware there would be a consignment agreement and you both dropped the ball here: even if vendor failed to provide, you also failed to obtain prior to shipping your items

-- you say you wanted to ship your items via USPS Registered Mail but for some reason you decided to let vendor make the choice -- had you stuck with your choice, you would have paid that shipping cost -- but maybe you thought vendor's shipping/insurance would be better shipping protection for your valuable items

-- do you think it is fair that the vendor should bear the entire cost of a transaction that is not going through, because both of you dropped the ball?

-- even if you decline to split the shipping cost of your items, perhaps consider offering vendor what it would have cost you to ship via USPS Registered/Insured

I think you make some good points. And I would have happily paid for registered mail. My problem is that the contract I was given was not a consignment agreement, it was a consignment or sale at dealer‘s sole discretion. To me, that is bait and switch. The added sale clause to the dealer, who does not have a second hand goods license, so is not permitted to buy from consumers, is not even legal under NY law.

After considering everyone’s input, I think the dealer has costs of doing business, took a risk thinking the reward would be large, and lost. I am going to review our emails again.

Thank you to everyone who so thoughtfully considered this situation. I hope it will serve as a reminder to get the contract before you send the goods! That’s the lesson I have learned.
 

Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
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Re:their added last paragraph
They treated you like they were a predatory pawn shop.
If you were hurting for the money and short on time - they expect you to jump at the certainty short game.

‘You should be happy’
Lol.
 

Mrsz1ppy

Brilliant_Rock
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Feb 23, 2012
Messages
1,299
Isn’t this type of scenario a common dream here?
:lol:

As a buyer, I love looking for inaccurately described jewelry at auctions, on eBay and at TRR. I love lousy pictures and typos. My problem is with estate jewelry dealers who buy from estates, have ongoing relationships with executors who have a fiduciary responsibility to the heirs, and abuse that trust.
 
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