Need Help w Etsy Padparadscha

[ejacobson]

Hello, Fabulous PSers!

I am a longtime lurker, first time poster. I have learned so much from this forum and am rgateful for the knowledge I've gained over the last 6 months. After much hemming and hawing, I finally bit the bullet and purchased a heat-treated 1.28 carat elongated cushion cut padparadscha sapphire from an Etsy store this week. I have 7 days to inspect and return it and I need your help.

1. Does it appear to have windowing and, if so, will the right setting correct that? Will I be able to even tell until it's actually set in the ring?

2. Do you think this stone is a good value for $1100? It comes with a certification from Aqua Gem Laboratory, but it references the stone before the gemologist recut with a precision cutter.

3. Is there any extinction?

The color in real life differs from the picture a bit, and I'm just not sure what to do. Is this going to disappear on my finger once it's set in white gold (which is what I have my heart set on)? My fiancé and I have a small budget ($3,000 for stone and setting) and I'm not sure I can get what I want (a pastel pinky-orange cushion cut between 1.25-2 carats without significant windowing, inclusion, cut issues, etc. for $1500 max), so I am reluctant to return it.

I sincerely appreciate any input/thoughts.

 

[T L]

I never heard of Aqua gem lab, and I can't even find a website for them.

I would never spend that kind of money on a padparadscha without a highly reputable lab report like AGL, GIA, GRS, SSEF.

Heat treatment can also mean diffusion as well, but the lab may not be equipped to test for it.

Be very careful when buying padparadschas.

 

[ejacobson]

TL,

Thank you for your input. I have attached a picture of the certification the vendor sent.

I don't particularly care for the padparadscha label, I just want the specific color sapphire that I want. Is $1100 expensive for a sapphire of that size that is not certified "padparadscha?"

I am trying to tap the collective knowledge of this forum for details about this stone in particular. Is there anything in particular you can tell me about this stone?

Thanks in advance.

 

[T L]

TL,

Thank you for your input. I have attached a picture of the certification the vendor sent.

I don't particularly care for the padparadscha label, I just want the specific color sapphire that I want. Is $1100 expensive for a sapphire of that size that is not certified "padparadscha?"

I am trying to tap the collective knowledge of this forum for details about this stone in particular. Is there anything in particular you can tell me about this stone?

Thanks in advance.

If it's diffused, it's not worth more than $100. Get an orangy pink sapphire with a reputable lab report if you don't want to unknowingly end up with a diffused stone.

 

[ejacobson]

I would love to hear from others as well.

All educational, friendly input is welcomed.

 

[pokerface]

You cannot begin to estimate the value of the sapphire without a credible lab report. If the sapphire is heat-only, you may have paid a fair price. If the sapphire has been diffused, it is worth next to nothing. I think most people on this forum would agree that without a reputable report, buying an expensive sapphire is a gamble you are likely to lose.

 

[pregcurious]

I would not buy a sapphire at that price, or many other stones, without getting a reputable report. Without a reputable report, I would consider that a very light pink stone. The gem report you have is not from a reputable lab, and does not even match the stone.

Richard Hughes, an expert on sapphires and rubies, wrote a very succinct article about buying pads. This article is old, however, and was written when the AGTA lab existed (it is now closed). AGL is now considered the best colored stone lab in the US. Also, diffusion techniques can now color the inside of a stone, not just the surface.
http://www.collectorfinejewelry.com/buyers_guide_padparadscha.htm

Here are his basic comments about treatments:

Enhancements
Today, many padparadscha sapphires are heat-treated to improve their appearance. The resulting stones are completely stable in color. In lower qualities, heat treated stones sell for roughly the same as untreated stones of the same quality. However, for finer qualities, untreated stones fetch a premium that is sometimes 50% or more when compared with treated stones of similar quality.
A fraudulent treatment sometimes seen is where a pink stone is irradiated to give it a padparadscha color. The resulting color is unstable and will fade with prolonged exposure to sunlight. Other treatments, such as oiling, dying and surface diffusion are seen on occasion.

Beginning in late 2001, sapphires of padparadscha colors began appearing from the ovens of Thai burners. It was later found that these gems owe their color to a form of outside-in bulk (‘surface’) diffusion. See this link for more on these stones.
As with all precious stones, it is a good practice to have any major purchases tested by a reputable gem lab, such as the GIA or AGTA, to determine if a gem is enhanced.

Note: As commented above, diffusion can now go into a gem, not just color the surface. AGL is considered the best colored stone in the US (except for colored diamonds)

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi and Welcome!

You did the right thing in coming here, and I think that part of you must be questioning your purchase for you to have come here and posted. I will answer your questions, but first I'll say send it back please. You don't have to, and its up to you, but as uncommon as padparadschas are, that stone is borderline and you are right to question it.

First off, there are many of us here as you know who care about the cutting. I don't get too fussed as long as the cut is decent. Its hard to tell from the pics but your stone does appear to have somewhat of a window. It also unfortunately appears to have some characteristics common to oval and elongated stones - some extinction and a bowtie, which is the pattern made when light hits it (literally imagine a bowtie and then look at your stone, how the part that is lit up is the middle across the stone, as if its wearing a bowtie across). The fact that the whole stone does not light up in the photos is a probably due to the fact that the facet angles are slightly askew and therefore light is leaking and going elsewhere instead of being bounced back to your eye (it could be shadowing as well, but either way, we don't want it for you!)

So I love padparadschas - they are one of my (many) weaknesses. I echo everything the others have said. Since you paid a decent amount for that stone, you want to make absolutely sure it is what you think it is. Since you cannot be sure based on a lab report that does not match (they must always match or they rarely can be useful), back it goes. Look at it this way: since its a non bona fide lab (or so we assume none of us having heard of it), it could be a padpardscha colored spinel (and since labs are particular about what they label as padparadschas and to be honest, I see some brown in the stone so it probably wouldn't be considered a pad anyway). So if its a pad spinel, we can find you a much much nicer one in your price range. If you want to hold out for a pad, we can help you with that too, it just might take a bit more time. My long-winded point being that either way you win! You send the stone back (we all do it so don't feel bad about the vendor or anything) and you get something better - better in cut and color - and this time it will be real!

When you are ready, start a thread asking for help - or continue this one and we can make suggestions for you and point out pros and cons of each. There are stickies (the posts at the top of the page) for you to read about shopping for colored stones, and there is a list of vendors with whom many of us have had good luck.

ETA: if they really said the reason the report doesn't match is that is the "before" report and it has since been precision cut, they are smoking crack as that is not precision cutting by any means. That is a red flag to me and I don't like that they said that to you.

 

[Marlow]

I think it is highly suspect that the field " Color enhancement" is FREE!!!

If heated or unheated or diffusion - there is no statement!!! And this IS A STATEMENT - RUN AWAY!!!

First, this is a gem report not a certificate!!!

Many informations you don't need ( if it is natural corundum which density plus hardness plus RI plus many blablabla)

The MOST important information IS the color enhancement --> NO INFORMATION.

The signs at the top left and right are from the british and german gemological association - why copy them???

 

[minousbijoux]

I think it is highly suspect that the field " Color enhancement" is FREE!!!

If heated or unheated or diffusion - there is no statement!!! And this IS A STATEMENT - RUN AWAY!!!

First, this is a gem report not a certificate!!!

Many informations you don't need ( if it is natural corundum which density plus hardness plus RI plus many blablabla)

The MOST important information IS the color enhancement --> NO INFORMATION.

The signs at the top left and right are from the british and german gemological association - why copy them???

Oh Marlow, you make me laugh with your way with words!

 

[Marlow]

But you agree??

 

[T L]

I would not buy a sapphire at that price, or many other stones, without getting a reputable report. Without a reputable report, I would consider that a very light pink stone. The gem report you have is not from a reputable lab, and does not even match the stone.

Richard Hughes, an expert on sapphires and rubies, wrote a very succinct article about buying pads. This article is old, however, and was written when the AGTA lab existed (it is now closed). AGL is now considered the best colored stone lab in the US. Also, diffusion techniques can now color the inside of a stone, not just the surface.
http://www.collectorfinejewelry.com/buyers_guide_padparadscha.htm

Here are his basic comments about treatments:

Enhancements
Today, many padparadscha sapphires are heat-treated to improve their appearance. The resulting stones are completely stable in color. In lower qualities, heat treated stones sell for roughly the same as untreated stones of the same quality. However, for finer qualities, untreated stones fetch a premium that is sometimes 50% or more when compared with treated stones of similar quality.
A fraudulent treatment sometimes seen is where a pink stone is irradiated to give it a padparadscha color. The resulting color is unstable and will fade with prolonged exposure to sunlight. Other treatments, such as oiling, dying and surface diffusion are seen on occasion.

Beginning in late 2001, sapphires of padparadscha colors began appearing from the ovens of Thai burners. It was later found that these gems owe their color to a form of outside-in bulk (‘surface’) diffusion. See this link for more on these stones.
As with all precious stones, it is a good practice to have any major purchases tested by a reputable gem lab, such as the GIA or AGTA, to determine if a gem is enhanced.

Note: As commented above, diffusion can now go into a gem, not just color the surface. AGL is considered the best colored stone in the US (except for colored diamonds)

As an FYI, AGTA is no longer a functioning lab.

One must beware of synthetics as well. There are a lot of synthetic and diffused padparadschas in the marketplace.

 

[minousbijoux]

I would not buy a sapphire at that price, or many other stones, without getting a reputable report. Without a reputable report, I would consider that a very light pink stone. The gem report you have is not from a reputable lab, and does not even match the stone.

Richard Hughes, an expert on sapphires and rubies, wrote a very succinct article about buying pads. This article is old, however, and was written when the AGTA lab existed (it is now closed). AGL is now considered the best colored stone lab in the US. Also, diffusion techniques can now color the inside of a stone, not just the surface.
http://www.collectorfinejewelry.com/buyers_guide_padparadscha.htm

Here are his basic comments about treatments:

Enhancements
Today, many padparadscha sapphires are heat-treated to improve their appearance. The resulting stones are completely stable in color. In lower qualities, heat treated stones sell for roughly the same as untreated stones of the same quality. However, for finer qualities, untreated stones fetch a premium that is sometimes 50% or more when compared with treated stones of similar quality.
A fraudulent treatment sometimes seen is where a pink stone is irradiated to give it a padparadscha color. The resulting color is unstable and will fade with prolonged exposure to sunlight. Other treatments, such as oiling, dying and surface diffusion are seen on occasion.

Beginning in late 2001, sapphires of padparadscha colors began appearing from the ovens of Thai burners. It was later found that these gems owe their color to a form of outside-in bulk (‘surface’) diffusion. See this link for more on these stones.
As with all precious stones, it is a good practice to have any major purchases tested by a reputable gem lab, such as the GIA or AGTA, to determine if a gem is enhanced.

Note: As commented above, diffusion can now go into a gem, not just color the surface. AGL is considered the best colored stone in the US (except for colored diamonds)

As an FYI, AGTA is no longer a functioning lab.

One must beware of synthetics as well. There are a lot of synthetic and diffused padparadschas in the marketplace.

Yes, TL, Preg made that clear in the beginning of her post.

 

[T L]

My apologies, bad eyes.

 

[SparkliesLuver]

Personally, I'd rather have this one from Gary, despite it being a bit smaller than your ideal, due to color and cut:

On my trips to Sri Lanka I'm always on the hunt for the elusive pinkish-orange padparadscha sapphire, and was very fortunate to find two on my last trip in March. I performed a total recut on this one to maximize its symmetry and brilliance, and was happy to receive the GIA ID report showing the coveted padparadscha label with heat only. A rare opportunity to own one of the most desirable sapphire colors in the world.

1.11 ct
6.76 x 4.74 x 4.14mm
VVS clarity
$1800 (you may even be able to negotiate a bit)
http://www.finewatergems.com/sapphire.html
(he has a video too!)

 

[chrono]

Agree with all posts above. I don't know this lab but to know whether the price is fair, you need information from a reputable lab that states the treatment or its lack thereof. This one provides none of them. Secondly, I don't need precision cut but to me, this is far from my definition of precision cut. Thirdly, the report should always match the stone so in this case, the seller should have re-sent it to a major lab after the recutting so that the buyer can easily verify that the stone matches the report.

 

[ejacobson]

Thank you all SO much for your informative responses. I contacted the vendor to return it. It's interesting how quickly I received a response when I was interested in purchasing, but I have yet to hear anything now that I want to return it. I will give it another day and then I will give them a call. I am grateful for everyone's help and I would love to have some guidance in my search for the right pad.

This is for an engagement ring and, while I am not opposed to spinel, isn't it less durable (lower on the Mohs scale) than sapphire?

I saw that sapphire on the Finewater gems and was a little bummed about the size. Also, is there color zoning on it and, if so, does that make the stone less desirable?

Again, thank you everybody. I look forward to getting to know everyone and hearing their tips and experience.

 

[ejacobson]

I should add: my idea pad (or peachy pink sapphire) is 1.25-2 carats, cushion cut, and on the pale side. Since it's for an E-ring, I prefer less saturation (but not so pale that it will wash out on my finger).

Our budget is $3k and I have found settings at a local jeweler that I like for less than $1k, so a stone that's $2k is not out of the question.

I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is to find these stones (well, except that I've been looking for at least 3 months and have only found the $1100 I purchased). but I'm reluctant to snag the next pad I see--like the Finewater gem--if I don't love the color.

What do y'all think?

 

[chrono]

How eagle eyed are you?
http://www.gemfix.com/spinel.html

 

[LoversKites]

I should add: my idea pad (or peachy pink sapphire) is 1.25-2 carats, cushion cut, and on the pale side. Since it's for an E-ring, I prefer less saturation (but not so pale that it will wash out on my finger).

Our budget is $3k and I have found settings at a local jeweler that I like for less than $1k, so a stone that's $2k is not out of the question.

I'm not sure exactly how difficult it is to find these stones (well, except that I've been looking for at least 3 months and have only found the $1100 I purchased). but I'm reluctant to snag the next pad I see--like the Finewater gem--if I don't love the color.

What do y'all think?

It will take a while of searching but it's better than settling for something you don't really love.

 

[Drif]

I would search for the stone you love. If I bought one because I had to settle for what's available at the time then every time I looked at it I'd be disappointed, but that's just me.

That being said. It's going to be rough to find an untreated pad with no issues for your price range. You could be waiting awhile for that perfect stone.

Most stones above a 7 on the MOHs scale are suitable for rings but since an ER is daily wear it will take a beating. Spinel is an 8 and Sapphire is 9 which make them both sturdy enough for a ring. Please remember that MOHs is only durability regarding surface scratches, not internal cracking (etc...) due to getting jarred from bumping off of things. Also, corundum (ruby/sapphire) has grains of different hardness along different planes, ie, some facets are 'harder' than others.

I don't work for a lab and I'm not a jeweler. I'm just a physical chemist specializing in ionic state changes of crystals due to light absorbtion, and a hobbiest cutter. So please research anything I posted if you want more info.

 

[minousbijoux]

I would search for the stone you love. If I bought one because I had to settle for what's available at the time then every time I looked at it I'd be disappointed, but that's just me.

That being said. It's going to be rough to find an untreated pad with no issues for your price range. You could be waiting awhile for that perfect stone.

Most stones above a 7 on the MOHs scale are suitable for rings but since an ER is daily wear it will take a beating. Spinel is an 8 and Sapphire is 9 which make them both sturdy enough for a ring. Please remember that MOHs is only durability regarding surface scratches, not internal cracking (etc...) due to getting jarred from bumping off of things. Also, corundum (ruby/sapphire) has grains of different hardness along different planes, ie, some facets are 'harder' than others.

I don't work for a lab and I'm not a jeweler. I'm just a physical chemist specializing in ionic state changes of crystals due to light absorbtion, and a hobbiest cutter. So please research anything I posted if you want more info.

The OP is fine with heat treatment as the stone she bought was heat treated.

 

[ejacobson]

Chrono,

Those are pretty spinels but it is so difficult to tell by picture (which I have learned with my recent purchase). I can't really afford to keep shelling out $50 for shipping both ways (total) to have gems sent to me to see whether I am in love with the color. Is that what people have to do if they are shopping online--just purchase and continue to return to the vendor until they find "the one?"

 

[ejacobson]

Minou,

Thank you for the warm welcome, and for taking the time to give me feedback. How can you tell that it isn't precision cut? Enlighten me because I'm very clueless in that regard.

 

[pregcurious]

Chrono,

Those are pretty spinels but it is so difficult to tell by picture (which I have learned with my recent purchase). I can't really afford to keep shelling out $50 for shipping both ways (total) to have gems sent to me to see whether I am in love with the color. Is that what people have to do if they are shopping online--just purchase and continue to return to the vendor until they find "the one?"

Yes and no. Colored stones are hard to find in brick and mortar stores, unless you have one nearby that specializes in colored stones.

You can go to a store and request that they find you stone X, but you will not find a bargain that way. They can bring in stones on "memo" which usually means that the store has 10 days to keep the stone and return it. If it's not returned, it's theirs (or yours).

You can save yourself money and the effort of buying many stones and returning by seeing as many stones in person first, before buying online. You can get a feel for how stones act under different lighting, and what to look for. For instance, I almost posted a peach Umba sapphire here for you, but realized that it would probably shift to much in color (as sapphires from the Umba Valley tend to shift.) I am going to a gem show in February named Intergem to just go look at stones, but not to necessarily buy.

 

[pregcurious]

ETA: if they really said the reason the report doesn't match is that is the "before" report and it has since been precision cut, they are smoking crack as that is not precision cutting by any means. That is a red flag to me and I don't like that they said that to you.

So funny. I love the part about "smoking crack". Minou!

Did someone recently buy a pad colored spinel from Gemfix in another thread? I cannot find it. They posted pics.

 

[minousbijoux]

I can give you a quick answer, but its an answer that will be immediately apparent to you the more you look around and look at stones. Within a few days of looking at the cuts of different stones, I think you will get it. I will wait to hear from the precision cutters to answer your questions in greater detail, but in the meantime, I'll take a stab. In general, precision cutters do not cut stones with windows. Precision cut stones are typically a bit more sophisticated in appearance than the stone you are sending back. They are symmetrical - facets line up with perfect meets, the pattern/design is apparent when looking at the stone, and the light return - the way the facets reflect light back to the eye - is maximized for the material and shape of the stone. Look at some of the stones cut by Barry Bridgestock, John Burleyson, Steve Kotlowski, and Roger Dery (there are others, but these are some of my favorites) and compare it to the one you are returning and I think you will see the difference.

 

[T L]

In addition to what Minous said, this is a very good write up on precision faceting.

http://www.osirisgems.com/precision_cutting

 

[Drif]

In addition to what Minous said, this is a very good write up on precision faceting.

http://www.osirisgems.com/precision_cutting

What a great site. I thought I had run out of 'new' gem related info pages.

Thanks for linking it.

 

[LD]

Hello, Fabulous PSers!

I am a longtime lurker, first time poster. I have learned so much from this forum and am rgateful for the knowledge I've gained over the last 6 months. After much hemming and hawing, I finally bit the bullet and purchased a heat-treated 1.28 carat elongated cushion cut padparadscha sapphire from an Etsy store this week. I have 7 days to inspect and return it and I need your help.

1. Does it appear to have windowing and, if so, will the right setting correct that? Will I be able to even tell until it's actually set in the ring?

2. Do you think this stone is a good value for $1100? It comes with a certification from Aqua Gem Laboratory, but it references the stone before the gemologist recut with a precision cutter.

3. Is there any extinction?

The color in real life differs from the picture a bit, and I'm just not sure what to do. Is this going to disappear on my finger once it's set in white gold (which is what I have my heart set on)? My fiancé and I have a small budget ($3,000 for stone and setting) and I'm not sure I can get what I want (a pastel pinky-orange cushion cut between 1.25-2 carats without significant windowing, inclusion, cut issues, etc. for $1500 max), so I am reluctant to return it.

I sincerely appreciate any input/thoughts.

I'm going to answer your questions if I'm not too late:-

1. Yes it appears to have a thin window - definitely not the worst I've seen. Will a setting correct it? It might but as I can still see it when it's between your fingers I suspect you will still be aware of it.

2. As others have said, I would totally ignore the report from Aqua Gem Lab. If nobody on this forum has heard of them (and can't find them with an internet search) then I would urge you to ignore everything about it.

3. Is there any extinction? Yes there is but the thing that I see more than extinction is the bow tie effect. Can you see the lighter areas through the middle of the stone? That's caused by the cut (as is the window). A bow tie will NOT disappear in any setting.

Pastel pink/orange is not a colour that suits all skin tones. Unfortunately they disappear into my skin (as does Morganite and Kunzite). Of course you can use rose gold or yellow gold which will make it stand out more but it may still be a Houdini of a stone!

If you're not 100% sure about this stone - and at the moment I don't know that I would call it a Padparadscha and there's nothing to indicate that it is/is not even a Sapphire then I would be wary of the purchase and think I'd be more inclined to go to a reputable vendor who will be able to provide reassurance for your purchase.

I hope that helps.