Need help Investing in Panjshir Emeralds

[mfa476]

Hi Guys,

I am new to pricescope and this is my first thread ever on the internet. So here it goes... Me and my buddies have been offered to buy 32 Carat Panjshir emerald lot. The details are as under:

Total weight 32 Carat emeral lot from Panjshir
Stones weight approx. 2.47, 2.72, 3.0, 4.07, 4.85 and the rest are unknown all are above 2 carat atleast.
They are unheated and untreated
Color and Clarity: Please take a look at the picture.
They will provide AGL , GIA or GRS certficate as well which I am yet to see.
Emeralds are cut.

My Question is based on the above how much should I pay for them. Gemworld is new to me and really wanted to buy them but I need to give a counter offer. The seller is demanding 10,000$/Carat for the entire lot. He does not want to sell individual stones. I want to buy them for a price so that I am able to sell them in future to make some money, provided everything is true above. I have asked for an authentic lab report from world reknown labs and they have gladly accepted to present the report. Say everything is ok as I have mentioned above, what should be the counter offer and how much should close the deal with, keeping in mind I need to make some money with these stones as well. Any guidance will be highly appreciated.
Thanks.
Eddie

 

[Nosean]

10000 pct.....

Don't do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mfa476]

Thanks Sean for the response, I appreciate it. I was planning on giving him a counter offer of 4000$/ct. Didnt want to scare him away.

 

[Nosean]

Still to much...

 

[mfa476]

What do you suggest for a final offer. If I offer him 2G , I am certain he will look no accept. I can still try anyways. But what is the last that I can offer to close the deal.

 

[Nosean]

From pics I can't tell you what would be a fair price but 4000 or 10000 is way too much! Just my opinion...

 

[mfa476]

Thanks for the advice and opinion, atleast I can give it a second thought. I will make a video and take a few high resolution pics and share them here. I will see a local gemologist to ascertain the color and clarity and share the thoughts here. Thanks Sean!

 

[whitewave]

Don't do it. You aren't going to make money selling them...

 

[mfa476]

Thanks Wave!!

 

[Bron357]

Where and how do you propose to sell these emeralds? Most buyers will require certification re treatments and want “market credibility” ie an established and trustworthy seller. The most money isn’t in the loose emeralds, but in them set as jewelery ie rings, earrings, pendant.

 

[mfa476]

Hi Bron,
I will be Calgary in February. That is where I will be based out of. So my target is North America. I am an Engineer by profession and looking towards a career change where I can travel and also make some cash plus enjoy the beauty of gemstones. I have lived and studied in Newfoundland and worked in the Atlantic region for most of my engineering career. In all honesty I have quite an ambitious plan but lets see. This is just a start. I have taken a short course of gem identification but plan on becoming a gemologist from Gemological Institute of America or Canada.

As far as certification is concerned, I have asked the seller to provide me with the certifications from a reputable lab. I am looking to sell it for a whole sale price, which again I am not sure what it really should or would be. I am just trying to learn as much as I can. Like I mentioned earlier, I will take a few high resolution pics and share them here. The seller is out of the country now, hence I cant get hold of the stones. They are gorgeous if you see them in person.
Cheers

 

[March-8-2008]

You do not know enough to make this purchase. The seller is going to take advantage of you and your lack of knowledge. You are describing all the hallmarks of a shady deal that will backfire on you.
I don't comment on PS often anymore, though I've been on PS for 10+ years. However, I feel COMPELLED to speak up on your post and urge you not to complete this purchase.
I've read multiple "investment opportunity" posts like this one over the last decade and THEY NEVER END WELL.
Do not do this.

 

[mfa476]

Hi March,
I highly appreciate your concern, your concern and your advice. Thanks once again.
I have asked the seller for the certification and will be showing the stones to a local gemologist as well. I will share the results from the gemologist here along with high resolution pics. For now I am waiting for their response on certs.
Thanks.
Cheers

 

[digdeep]

The downsides in this:
-You asked for 'certifications' from a reputable lab. Which labs do YOU consider reputable and why? You don't need to answer on this forum........just think about the question.

-Most faceters do not buy large quantities of gems when a few will do. And those 'few' are usually handpicked and negotiated with the seller who is often in a long term relationship with the buyer. Correction: You would not be selling to faceters if they are already cut.......BUT that brings up two points. How well cut are they? Technically speaking? Who cut them? I don't know many designers/vendors that buy "lots" of gemstones at those prices when a few will do for their needs.

-Who do you have personal relationships with in the gemstone world? Buying gems, talking gems, seeing gems?

-Completing GIA coursework is a great idea and the one you could start with. You will learn some of the things people are trying to tell you on this forum, and your knowledge base will serve you well (hopefully) IF you pursue being a middleman between those that sell rough/or finished gems and those that sell jewelry you will have a lot of relationships to develop/grow and that is usually established over time and experiences.

-Oh, yeah, that's the last thing........you are going to be a middle man in transactions that can be direct, established and more cost effective without a middle man.

Just some things to consider..........

 

[Bron357]

While Gemology classes / courses are fascinating and a great learning tool, I have done similiar for my own enjoyment, they do not give you what you really need to succeed in the gem business. What you need is years / decades even of experience and having handled thousands of gems. Emeralds are beautiful but to understand the nuances of colour, clarity, cut and origin when it comes to value and then onselling is paramount. I presume that you are buying from is the cutter. You would be foolish to think you are only only person who has been offered these emeralds so you would have to assume that others have “passed” on them. The best gem cutters who have access to the best raw material also have established buyers. These emeralds you are considering are not “top / best” quality. And if you are not “valuing adding” ie setting in jewelery your clients are gem collectors, Jewellers or an ordinary person who is looking for a gem to set themselves. Gem collectors will have very specific requirements and have much more experience and knowledge than you. Jewellers will prefer their known and established sources and their requirements will mean a certain shape, a certain carat weight is required and the same for the ordinary person. They are going to want a very established seller, a fancy website, a large range and price points to chose from plus a return policy if they don’t like what they receive. Furthermore, in terms of gem popularity, emeralds come well after diamonds, sapphire and rubies. Emeralds are not seen a durable stones for an engagement ring. They are a specialist stone for a “cocktail type ring”. They aren’t everyday wearing gems, they need extra care when setting, they need care when wearing, they need extra care when cleaning. Big emeralds are expensive, so you have a limited market. And still Columbia’s emeralds are the one that people want - like me. Out of my hundred or so family, friends and acquaintances I am the only one with an emerald ring. So to have a “business” you need to sell your emeralds. Yes, you might, but it won’t be in a week. It might take months / a year to sell those 8 emeralds. That’s a big $$$ investment that will just sit for a long time.

 

[Canuckgemgeek]

While I am new here, I have been lurking for several years. If you are to be located in Canada, in the new year, you might want to review several of the resent prices realised catalogs for Dupois Auction Galleries, they are quite well respected in Canada for their loose gem and Jewlery auctions, they are based out of Toronto. I happen to know that they have sold numourous fine Emerald items over the last several auctions. All be it, these are mostly set, but it would give you an idea of where the wholesale or lower retail for these items are especialy set items. A number of dealer's or jeweler's buy or sell set or loose gems through their auctions. Their fall 2017 Important Jewels auction hammered at least a dozen finer Emerald items with Emeralds of varing grades and qualitys, some came with resent grading reports from GIA and or other labs.

 

[valeria101]

.

They'd end up less than a carat each & possibly more flawed than the rough appears. Frustrating material: perfect & too small !

You might want to find out what a cutter might want to buy such rough for. I could not know any better, sure enough ...

 

[Bron357]

And after a closer look at those emeralds, they are only native cut. This means they need further facetting to be ready to set into Jewellery. Two of those 8 stones photographed look like they were once 1 stone, ie now broken into two pieces!!!!. Cutting emeralds is expensive and a specialist job - you will lose carat weight and no guarantees are given that the stone won’t crack or split just like 1 already had. Emeralds are brittle and their crystalline structure means they can cleave too readily, The dealer wants $10,000 a carat - by the time they are recut you’ll have at least 30% less gem. I can’t see this venture having a happy ending for you.

 

[mfa476]

Thanks guys for your valuable time and input. It surely is an eye opener. I will definitely keep in mind the aforementioned. I am glad to have shared it here on pricescope since I had no one to ask for an opinion. I highly appreciate it! Thanks!

 

[Sagebrush]

mfa,
Though retired with no interest in any wholesale, retail or any other gem or jewelry business, Pricescope insists that I am a member of the trade. So, I am not allowed to comment on particular stones. However, I can say that generally speaking emerald is normally cracked and routinely treated to mask the gem's real clarity. Two emeralds, one treated with an "oil" close to the refractive index of the material. Two visually identical stones can, therefore, vary thousands of dollars, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars in price per carat.

I can also say that a "local gemologist" is unlikely to have the expertise necessary to advise you in making a large purchase. That requires a seasoned rough buyer usually a cutter. During the more than 20 years I spent visiting gem producing regions and buying stone I rarely bought rough because I simply didn't have the lapidary experience. I did buy some and quite successfully, but only in ones and twos.

Caveat Emptor,
RWW

 

[valeria101]

... expertise necessary ... requires a seasoned rough buyer usually a cutter.
RWW

This, @mfa476

I did not explain why I would bother gem cutters ... & this is why: because they are also buyers of rough, sure enough. It would be interesting to play with a parcel like that, some time ... & would certainly not do it alone: I do not know what I do not know, only, perhaps how BIG that chunk is !

 

[Bron357]

I just remember an episode from a TV show called “gem hunters” or something. This group, includes a top rate gem cutter, who with the guy who tracks down the source and the guy who does the negotiation, find and work out an offer for loose gems. They had this amazing emerald, and I mean amazing, and their top gem cutter guy, whilst facetting the material, the gem just “exploded” - the show went on to explain that this is always a risk when facetting emeralds.

 

[Sagebrush]

Talk about an UNREALITY show! That show was an embarrassment. No "gem hunter" would ever operate as depicted. The producers of that show should be shot.

I saw a $250,000 crystal from Santa Terezania de Goias that exploded on the wheel. That happens, of course we are talking here about mostly cut stones.

RWW

 

[Bron357]

Talk about an UNREALITY show! That show was an embarrassment. No "gem hunter" would ever operate as depicted. The producers of that show should be shot.

I saw a $250,000 crystal from Santa Terezania de Goias that exploded on the wheel. That happens, of course we are talking here about mostly cut stones.

RWW

I agree it was a pretty outrageous show but that gem exploding was pretty upsetting.

 

[Mauriceo]

2 years ago I sold an almost flawless 3.45ct Panjshir Emerald AGL certified with 90% brilliance and perfect cutting and polish for $17,500. The rough stones you have in the pics have a lot of eye visible inclusions.

 

[Nosean]

Gem Hunter...

To shot the producers is too fast...

Misleading, wrong, telling lies about rarity, price, wrong gemological infos - television today...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Are those stones cut or rough? They look like they are cut to me, at least a few of them.

 

[valeria101]

.

Asumed preforms above

 

[partgypsy]

First suggestion, ditto you don't know enough to do this kind of thing successfully. 2nd suggestion. Get the information from the seller, copies of the GIA, AGS whatever report. Then with that information, try to sell a single stone, for an amount that would make you a profit given what you need to buy it for. If you can set up a transaction like that, then you might want the risk. Otherwise, what is your game plan for selling these stones? Stone sellers already have their own trusted sources. In the same way most of us gem lovers here, like known trusted vendors to purchase from. Especially for a stone like emerald which can have undisclosed treatments that very much affect the appearance (and value) of the stone. I disagree with some; the stones look nice. But I have no idea what they are, whether they are some other stone, simulants or even if they are emeralds, if they've been treated, if they have been colored, etc.

 

[mfa476]

There is so much information in this thread and has been an eyeopener for me. The stones are cut. Hopefully will share the high resolution pics here soon. I have asked for certifications from GIA , AGL etc. I am still awaiting results. Having 8 stones indeed is a big risk and am not certain if I will be able to sell all them, provided I buy them. Upon going through the entire thread a couple of times, it seems it is not a good deal since the asking price is too high. I have not called it off as yet but have asked for more information.

My plan is to go to jewelers, pawn shops, auctioneers and even gem cutters if they are interested. One of the gem dealers I came across told me to have an outlet or a display center. That also requires a hefty investment and I am in no position to do so. Atleast not yet.

As Canuckgemgeek suggested I am looking towards Dupuis gem auctioneers based out of Toronto as well.

I am open to suggestions and guidance in terms of marketing stones and targeting buyers.

I honestly have watched gem hunters repeatedly and thought that was it. The truth and nothing but the truth. I guess I was wrong!