Need help in understanding 1992 European grading

[Mindaugas]

I need some advice in understanding older European grading. I am considering the following diamond, which is graded and certified by Hoge Raad voor Diamant (HRD) in Antwerp Belgium in 1992. The grades are as follows:

1.16ct round brilliant
clarity: loupe clean
color: rare white (G)
measurements: 6.70-6.80mm x 4.14mm
proportions: very good
girdle: medium 3.5%
culet: pointed
table width: 63%
height 12.5%
depth 45%
finish grade: good
graining is present

What would be the modern day exquivalents for clarity, color and cut? And what does it mean "graining ir present", if the clarity is "loupe clean"?
Any comments on other concerns about buying it, or even a general idea on how much this diamond may be worth, would also be helpfull. Thank you!

Min

 

[JulieN]

7.8 HCA

I assume loupe clean to be VS, but maybe one of the experts will come by.

 

[Lorelei]

If you are interested in this diamond, have seen it and like it, then make the sale final on an independant appraisal so you know exactly what you have. The table is quite large, do you prefer that look if you have seen it? HRD are a respected lab by the way, and are normally seen outside the USA.

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/15/2008 5:57:52 AM
Author: JulieN
7.8 HCA

I assume loupe clean to be VS, but maybe one of the experts will come by.

HRD Loupe clean = IF....
Graining..., I assume its internal graining (which by GIA grading will not achieve IF clarity).

Now..., as for the fact to who is correct...., I would say it depends on the effect of the internal graining at 10X view...

Sometimes I agree with HRD and sometimes GIA..., its on a case per case basis!
I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

 

[John P]

HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/15/2008 12:27:45 PM
Author: John Pollard
HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

External graining? And I agree with that due to the stringent cut grades in which AGS set as their top grade...
When it comes to internal graining..., there are plenty of occasions you wont be able to notice it with a 10X loupe...

But for some odd reason (which I still have a problem understanding) it is starting to resemble the fluorescence issue...

 

[John P]

Date: 6/15/2008 1:13:28 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 12:27:45 PM
Author: John Pollard
HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

External graining? And I agree with that due to the stringent cut grades in which AGS set as their top grade...
When it comes to internal graining..., there are plenty of occasions you wont be able to notice it with a 10X loupe...

But for some odd reason (which I still have a problem understanding) it is starting to resemble the fluorescence issue...

Correct. This is an area where GIA and AGS part ways. Diamonds with finish of VG-EX can earn GIA EX cut overall. Only diamonds with Ideal finish can earn AGS Ideal cut overall. In human terms the GIA plan is logical since there is no visible difference. AGS is maintaining the stricter finish standard to reward top craftsmanship.

I presume you''re saying a non-issue is being made into an issue?

Mindaugas - sorry for the threadjack.

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/15/2008 1:23:27 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 6/15/2008 1:13:28 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 12:27:45 PM
Author: John Pollard
HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

External graining? And I agree with that due to the stringent cut grades in which AGS set as their top grade...
When it comes to internal graining..., there are plenty of occasions you wont be able to notice it with a 10X loupe...

But for some odd reason (which I still have a problem understanding) it is starting to resemble the fluorescence issue...

Correct. This is an area where GIA and AGS part ways. Diamonds with finish of VG-EX can earn GIA EX cut overall. Only diamonds with Ideal finish can earn AGS Ideal cut overall. In human terms the GIA plan is logical since there is no visible difference. AGS is maintaining the stricter finish standard to reward top craftsmanship.

Not when it comes to "internal" graining and 10X loupe-clean Diamonds...

I presume you''re saying a non-issue is being made into an issue?

Mindaugas - sorry for the threadjack.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/15/2008 1:46:39 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 1:23:27 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 6/15/2008 1:13:28 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 12:27:45 PM
Author: John Pollard
HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

External graining? And I agree with that due to the stringent cut grades in which AGS set as their top grade...
When it comes to internal graining..., there are plenty of occasions you wont be able to notice it with a 10X loupe...

But for some odd reason (which I still have a problem understanding) it is starting to resemble the fluorescence issue...

Correct. This is an area where GIA and AGS part ways. Diamonds with finish of VG-EX can earn GIA EX cut overall. Only diamonds with Ideal finish can earn AGS Ideal cut overall. In human terms the GIA plan is logical since there is no visible difference. AGS is maintaining the stricter finish standard to reward top craftsmanship.

Not when it comes to ''internal'' graining and 10X loupe-clean Diamonds...

I presume you''re saying a non-issue is being made into an issue?

Mindaugas - sorry for the threadjack.

I had moved on to finish grading but you can keep banging the original drum if you want to.

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/15/2008 1:50:28 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 6/15/2008 1:46:39 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 1:23:27 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 6/15/2008 1:13:28 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 6/15/2008 12:27:45 PM
Author: John Pollard
HRD has a good reputation.

Using your numbers the depth is 61.8%. The angles will be close to 42.0 PA, 34.0 CA.
With the 63% table and depending on minors GIA would give it VG in cut. AGS cut guides predict 7 in light performance.

There are plenty of diamonds cut just like this today.

Date: 6/15/2008 6:13:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

I certainly dont agree all Diamonds which contain internal graining should be limited to a max grade of VVS1!!!

Some diamonds won''t receive AGS Ideal polish due to graining. Not the craftsman''s fault - it''s an unavoidable physical property of some crystals.

External graining? And I agree with that due to the stringent cut grades in which AGS set as their top grade...
When it comes to internal graining..., there are plenty of occasions you wont be able to notice it with a 10X loupe...

But for some odd reason (which I still have a problem understanding) it is starting to resemble the fluorescence issue...

Correct. This is an area where GIA and AGS part ways. Diamonds with finish of VG-EX can earn GIA EX cut overall. Only diamonds with Ideal finish can earn AGS Ideal cut overall. In human terms the GIA plan is logical since there is no visible difference. AGS is maintaining the stricter finish standard to reward top craftsmanship.

Not when it comes to ''internal'' graining and 10X loupe-clean Diamonds...

I presume you''re saying a non-issue is being made into an issue?

Mindaugas - sorry for the threadjack.

I had moved on to finish grading but you can keep banging the original drum if you want to.

Dont want to threadjack the loupe clean issue....

But be my guest to change drums....

 

[Mindaugas]

Guys,
So to sum things up I understand that the diamong may be decent overall, but poor performer when it comes to light, fire, etc.
My wedding anniversary is not far away, and I am just considering purchasing a necklace with this diamond. I attach the actual pic of the item. The diamond is fully enclosed in the setting. The item is vintage, but very good condition and overall I like it.
With this kind of setting shall I be concerned about really poor HCA score? Thanks.

Min

 

[JulieN]

Something from the early 90s is considered vintage, now?

I do not think the stone looks very good, and the style is...not vintage, but just old. Sorry.

 

[Rhea]

Is this an older stone that was just graded in the 1990''s? I''m confused since your last post.

I have no input on setting, I''m not sure what would look best for the stone.

 

[Mindaugas]

Well the piece is almost 20 years old, from the time when there were no mobile phones, gas was <1$ per gallon, SUVs were rulling the road, etc. so I though it is vintage.

When it comes to the looks, it is a matter of taste. I kind of like the industrial look and I am pretty sure my wife will like it as well.
I do not know it for sure, but I assume that diamond is from 1990-1992.

 

[JulieN]

If you like industrial, some Niessing designs are

for me.

Is it a Neissing?

I would prefer the..ok, I don't know what it's called. Gauge? I mean the little ribs in the necklace. I would want it to be very fine. It is what turned me off at first. I was thinking it was like omega/snake chains. But hard to see, as the picture is much larger than RL, and probably they are quite small/fine.