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Need expert advice on strange inclusion in my diamond!!

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beau13

beau13

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
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Okay, you know how it is when you get a new ring, and you can't stop staring at it, running to different rooms, then outside, checking it out if different lighting? Well...my diamond which is an SI-1, H color looked totally eye clean in the store, I walked to the door to go outside and seen it in natural light,(but inside the store, in front of the door) and it looked fine...BUT...I get it home, and under halogen lighting, and direct sunlight, when it is really bright outside...I see this inclusion off to the side, but looking straight on, that looks like a little cloud, puff of whitish..I dunno. Thought it was dirty, so I cleaned it, then it was easily visible! It seems to flow down into the diamond a bit, and I can see it VERY easily holding the ring about 5-6 inches from my face! Now..I cannot see it any other time, except for direct sunlight, and in my kitchen under the halogen lights! I am bringing it to the jeweler in the morning, since they made it too big. I told them a snug 6.75 they made it a loose 7! I will show the jeweler, but do you think they will let me trade the diamond? Is this common..or unheard of? Thanks
 
It depends on their policies if they will let you change it, but do bear in mind that clarity is graded face up so especially in an SI grade, it is possible you may see something and this is likely to be an inclusion. One thing you can do is check the clarity plot of your grading report ( I assume it is GIA) and see if this inclusion is marked there. Also inclusions can jump out at you in some lights more than others, and are easy to find afterwards as your eye automatically goes there! Many of us here look at inclusions as handy birthmarks so you will always know your diamond, others hate the thought of seeing anything - it depends which camp you fall into! Also read this thread titled Clarity and Eyeclean - definitions as it gives you a good overview of the meanings of the term eyeclean which may help. It isn't unusual to be able to see something even from the table in an SI clarity, SI grades aren't always eyeclean, but many are, they need evaluating on a case by case basis.

Congrats too on your purchase!
 
Thanks Skippy..I read the info, thanks for pointing it out to me. I didn''t realize there were clouds that only show up in certain lighting conditions. I can spot it right away when I am in that kind of lighting. I never got a diagram of my diamond, showing any inclusions...there was one tiny line (white) near the bottom, side of the diamond with the loupe, but this one right on the table might bother me a bit. I told the jeweler that I wanted it appraised after it was set, not to bother beforehand (I was too anxious to send it off for mounting and have it back quick)...so it goes in tomorrow for appraisal. Do you think the jeweler will see it? or does he look at the stone in the same lighting conditions as the store had? Darn!! I am a little dissapointed...but perhaps they will give me a different diamond?
 
Also you don''t mention the size of the diamond? Generally the larger you go, the more chance of seeing something too, also is it a round diamond? Certain shapes can show inclusions more than others.
 
Thanks Loralei, I read John''s info too. My diamond is a round, 1.76 carats. I posted pics in the "show me the ring" section, but they aren''t that clear. Like I said, I don''t have a plot or diagram of my diamond, I don''t know the angles etc..I asked what the color, the clarity and the measurements were. I thought that would all be part of the appraisal..getting the paperwork?
 
Does it have a grading report from GIA, AGS etc?
 
Not that I am aware of? The jeweler found me 3 diamonds,they were shipped to the store the nexy day. The one I picked (based on color, and what I saw looking at the diamond), I was told the diamond guy threw that one in last minute...thinking I might like it, it was a bit bigger than what I was looking for (1.5), but lower color than the two others (E/F). The jeweler told me all the info they had on this diamond right then, was the color, clarity/measurements (which was written on the envelope). I just thought to myself, well, it will get appraised and if it doesn''t come back as such, I won''t buy it. I still owe the store a bit more $$, which I told them they will receive once it''s been appraised. I gave them most of the money in cash...and left with the ring Friday afternoon. They know I am going there tomorrow to have the ring sized, then appraised.
 
If this diamond does not have a grading report , then what the colour and clarity are in truth is anyone's guess. The reason I wanted to know was that labs such as GIA and AGS consistenly grade for colour and clarity to a very high standard. Diamonds without a report are not subject to such impartial and skilled grading, so it is even more likely you might see an inclusion as this diamond may be a lower clarity and colour than you thought. Get that appraisal ASAP if you are planning on keeping it ( an independant appraisal) but really you may be better changing it for a reliably graded diamond to make sure you are getting what you pay for. I would check with the jeweller to see if this diamond does have a report in case he doesn't have it in his possession right now, but it seems possible it doesn't have one. You want to check into this as soon as possible to find out about the grading report, whether the diamond has one or not!!!
 
How much did you pay for this diamond, if you don't mind me asking. It sounds like a tough situation. Was the place you purchased it from a well-known place or are they registered with the BBB? You might want to check that to see what their rating is to see what you are dealing with before going in tomorrow.
 
YES, a VERY good business here in town were I live. I live in Canada, these people have been in business for about 33 years. The diamond alone I was told sold for about $12 000, however, she told me if I paid cash, I would save the tax (which is 14% HERE), So over $1600 in tax, and I just wanted a plain gold mount, with a different looking head (from Stuller), which she included in the price. So the total was around the $11 000 mark. I know the gal, so she gave me the diamond at cost.
 
I brought the ring into the jewelers this morning, for appraisal and re-sizing. I asked if the diamond had a certificate or grade report, she said "NO..not all diamonds have reports". She said I can send it away (to a different city, by mail) to have it done, for X amount of $$. She said the appraisal will give me all the info I need. Showed her the tiny white cloud I could see in very bright sunlight or halogen lighting. She said she could barely see it with the loupe. Hmmm..I could see it without the loop, holding it 12 inches from my face. So..what do you think I should do? Wait for the appraisal, and if it checks out to be an SI1, H color, as I was told..keep the diamond, or insist it be replaced with a different diamond? Thanks
 
I think $11,000 for an uncertified diamond is a lot of money!! I''d insist on a stone that is certified. It sounds like this inclusion is going to bother you, so I''d definitely look harder.

Maybe I missed it, but who is doing the appraisal?
 
Date: 7/16/2007 11:31:54 AM
Author: beau13
I brought the ring into the jewelers this morning, for appraisal and re-sizing. I asked if the diamond had a certificate or grade report, she said ''NO..not all diamonds have reports''. She said I can send it away (to a different city, by mail) to have it done, for X amount of $$. She said the appraisal will give me all the info I need. Showed her the tiny white cloud I could see in very bright sunlight or halogen lighting. She said she could barely see it with the loupe. Hmmm..I could see it without the loop, holding it 12 inches from my face. So..what do you think I should do? Wait for the appraisal, and if it checks out to be an SI1, H color, as I was told..keep the diamond, or insist it be replaced with a different diamond? Thanks
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If the actual jewellers who sold you the diamond are doing the appraisal, then this isn''t any good in my opinion as you cannot count on them to be unbiased - they want the sale after all. The best thing if you want to keep this diamond is to get an appraisal performed by an independant appraiser, otherwise you could be spending money on something that in actuality is not what you have paid for.

The thing is with SI clarities ( this diamond could be lower) is that they need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Some may be eyeclean and some aren''t, this can apply to other clarity grades too. The point is, that regardless of the actual clarity and your jeweller minimising the importance of this inclusion, if it matters to YOU and YOU can see it, then it is an issue. Perhaps you might be best asking to see replacement diamonds which carry a GIA or AGS report instead.
 
Like I said before I live in a smaller city (150 000 population) in Canada, and there is ONE independent appraiser here. He is doing the appraisal, not the store, or jeweler. Remember that $11 000 is CDN funds, so that might be a little less in US funds (although right now I believe OUR dollar is worth more than yours? lol....tht doesn''t happen often!) The diamond is so clear, so bright, so fiery and brilliant, I cannot see the little white fluff, except under the direct hallogen light..and really, REALLY have to look hard for it (3 inches from my face), outside, int VERY bright/direct sunlight. When the diamond had just been cleaned, I can see it, if the diamond is a bit dirty, it just blends in I guess, I can''t find it really. So...that is why I am unsure as to what to do with the diamond. If it comes back a lower grade from the appraiser, then I might discuss alternative diamonds with the jeweler...but if not, then maybe I will just keep it? Thanks for the advice from all of you.
 
Sorry, like Jay said, I must have missed the part about the appraiser, I mixed it up with the jeweller. In that case, wait and see what the verdict is then decide from there depending on how this turns out.
 
Beau13, what you may be seeing is a cloud with an orientation that is on a plane you don''t see when looking at it table up. Because of the transparency of the cloud, being whitish and it being an SI1, I would say it''s a fairly large cloud, but likely a decent SI1. usually you see that without a loupe, and you said you hadn''t? Again, when grading a stone it is a dynamic process. No one ever grades just from the table. You have to rotate the stone, check the girdle edges, look into the pavillion, and then rock the stone back and forth for such coulds and structural inconsistencies. Graining and feathers are also tricky. because of orientation some crystals will look dark in a stone, then disappear. It''s all based on how light hits it and at what angles. The same may be happening to your cloud.

I don''t think you are getting ripped off. The price seems about right for a stone of that size and quality, but from a brick and mortar store. Nothing wrong with that, but I would ask for a certificate, and get an appraisal (even if just for insurance purposes). It is good for your peace of mind. If the report is off by more than one color and clarity grade than what you paid for, you have legal right to exchange or be refunded. Grading is not an exact science, so one grade of difference is allowed.

Good luck!
 
Thanks Nicerez, hoping to have a look at it again on Friday. It should be sized and appraised by then. I only looked at two other diamonds, they were SI1''s as well...but higher in color. One other small business here in town, wanted $ 22-28 000, so for around the $10-11 000 mark, I thought I''d go with this diamond instead (didn''t look any different than the ones double in price)! Again, I can only see the inclusion without a loupe under one specific lighting condition (halogen), so I guess I will avoid those lights!! Under any other lighting conditions, it sparkles so nicely, looks so crisp, and blinding actually!
 
Update... I brought the ring to the store yesterday, the gal who sold it to me was in today (off yesterday), and wanted to discuss it with me. She called me this morning, toelling me my ring had not beenlooke at yet! I asked if it could be graded, while it was in Toronto being sized, tweeked a bit. She said that would mean the diamond needed to be unmounted, the prongs would have to be replaced, or re-tipped, and the cost would be $200. She then said she will glady absorb the cost of the appraisal, but not the grading. She said it was going in for apprasial today. I told her I was a tad upset about the inclsuion (white cloud) I found, and she said, "not all SI-1''s are eyeclean", and I said "I know, however, you told me it was, and without a grading report, I was just going by what I could see with my eyes, in the store lighting, and from what I was told about this diamond, which wasn''t much at all."I was a bit disappointed to find out about the inclusion when I got the ring home, and inspected it under various lighting conditions. So...she did not mention replacing the diamond, there was talk about that only if the appraisal came back with a drastic difference (she said 2 color grades lower, or 2 grades lower in clarity). So..does that sound acceptable? What would you do in my situation, any other requests or questions I should ask her? Thanks
 
It is an accepted practice for the colour and clarity to be a grade off (up or down) from what is stated on the diamond certificate. If you are lucky, it's up. If not, its down.

For example, a VS1 could be a VS2 or VVS2. It is not acceptable to be an SI1.
 
It sounds sort of fair to me based on the diamond not having a certificate. I honestly would see if you could get your money back or buy a diamond w/a certificate. just my thoughts.
 
But why is is so important to have a diamond with a certificte? Just for resale purposes? If the ring is only for my enjoyment, and I don''t care what the paper says as far as angles, %''s, crown depth..etc..etc. Most people only ask one thing...what size is that diamond?Others may ask," What is the color, clarity" and some very brave souls may ask "how much was that"..nothing else really matters! Do I really need that? I just want to make sure the color and clarity is pretty much the same as I had been told, and after that, wear my ring, and enjoy it! So..once again, what purpose does a certificate or diamond grading serve? Thanks
 
Date: 7/17/2007 1:00:24 PM
Author: beau13
But why is is so important to have a diamond with a certificte? Just for resale purposes? If the ring is only for my enjoyment, and I don''t care what the paper says as far as angles, %''s, crown depth..etc..etc. Most people only ask one thing...what size is that diamond?Others may ask,'' What is the color, clarity'' and some very brave souls may ask ''how much was that''..nothing else really matters! Do I really need that? I just want to make sure the color and clarity is pretty much the same as I had been told, and after that, wear my ring, and enjoy it! So..once again, what purpose does a certificate or diamond grading serve? Thanks
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It''s only important in the marketplace. If you bought it without needing a certificate, and you like the stone, who cares. If you don''t want to sell it, who cares. If one day you do, you''ll get it done then, but also many people need it for insurance value, so if you are not isnuring it, then again who cares.

Everyone has different tolerances of risk when they shop, or live. It''s not bad, just different. I have many people I know who will buy a diamond with no certificate and just based on what they see. Usually these are people who buy old stones, or just for themselves and not resale.

Enjoy your ring, but if you get it appraised you can get better information as to wether you want a GIA or AGS certificate or not. To me, having a gemologist appraise a ring after or before buying is key to making sure you get what you pay for as a layperson. But a certificate is not needed generally.

Standard practice, as grading is not an exact science, is that a diamond can be within 2 grades of the stated color and clarity. As the other posters have said, VS1 or an I1 to be able to demand your money back. Color would have to be F or J for you to have any basis to exchange or refund. Clearly you would have issues with a J I1, but somehow I doubt it will be I1 based on your own observations.

Sounds like you love your stone. Get it appraised and find out mroe about it, and if all is good (it is indeed a diamond, or not enhanced or treated), then enjoy it certificate free if you like.
 
You don't have to have a diamond certified, but may be important to you because the price of the diamond is affected by an accurate measure of what the diamond's grading actually is.

Appraisals can be inflated, so having an accurate grading of a diamond, from a reliable lab, does matter. It matters to YOU because YOU paid for it. For example, their appraiser could tell you it's an F VS1, and it could actually be a I SI2 on a GIA report, and you'll have paid an inflated price for something that obviously isn't worth the money.

The measurements on paper also matter because that also affects the price of the diamond. You could buy a 1.5ct diamond, but what if the angles are too deep, and then you end up buying a diamond for the price of a 1.5ct that looks like a 1.0ct on your finger.

Like I said, you don't HAVE to have a certificate, but the accuracy a well-respected gem lab like GIA or AGS provide you with are far better than an unknown appraiser.

Your other option is just to send it to a well-respected PS appraiser if you don't want to pay the money for certification.
 
Date: 7/17/2007 1:18:08 PM
Author: curiopotter
You don''t have to have a diamond certified, but may be important to you because the price of the diamond is affected by an accurate measure of what the diamond''s grading actually is.

Appraisals can be inflated, so having an accurate grading of a diamond, from a reliable lab, does matter. It matters to YOU because YOU paid for it. For example, their appraiser could tell you it''s an F VS1, and it could actually be a I SI2 on a GIA report, and you''ll have paid an inflated price for something that obviously isn''t worth the money.

The measurements on paper also matter because that also affects the price of the diamond. You could buy a 1.5ct diamond, but what if the angles are too deep, and then you end up buying a diamond for the price of a 1.5ct that looks like a 1.0ct on your finger.

Like I said, you don''t HAVE to have a certificate, but the accuracy a well-respected gem lab like GIA or AGS provide you with are far better than an unknown appraiser.

Your other option is just to send it to a well-respected PS appraiser if you don''t want to pay the money for certification.
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Actually, Curio I am hoping that whatever appraiser she gets can actually grade a diamond. If they call a SI2 a VS1, then not only do they need to go back to school, but they could seriously be sued. That''s greivous. Maybe an SI1 could be called a VS2 or an SI2, based on the "callability" (some stones are really close calls), but an appraiser is no different than a lab, except that labs may have more equipment to test, and they are generall recognized in the industry as standardized and controlled environments where some are even ISO certified in their equipment being calibrated and checked for utmost accuracy.

Also, Beau13, do NOT go for an unknown appraiser. Make sure they are registered with NAJA or the International Society of Appraisers, insured and not selling jewlery as a retailer or wholesaler. Also ask to see some titles or references if you really get nervous, but a GG from GIA, or even an FGA from the UK is good but not enough. Get someone with more years of experience. Try by searching PS''s appraisers and seeing who is in your area you can look up and call. But Curio is right, getting a quack appraiser or one in-house in a jewelry store where you bought the item is just like milking the cow and kicking over the bucket...
38.gif
 
Date: 7/17/2007 1:00:24 PM
Author: beau13
But why is is so important to have a diamond with a certificte? Just for resale purposes? If the ring is only for my enjoyment, and I don''t care what the paper says as far as angles, %''s, crown depth..etc..etc. Most people only ask one thing...what size is that diamond?Others may ask,'' What is the color, clarity'' and some very brave souls may ask ''how much was that''..nothing else really matters! Do I really need that? I just want to make sure the color and clarity is pretty much the same as I had been told, and after that, wear my ring, and enjoy it! So..once again, what purpose does a certificate or diamond grading serve? Thanks
Click to expand...
In that case, your best bet is to get that good independant appraisal to give you the info you want, so you can enjoy your ring! Nic outlined the reasons for a grading report and you know what you are comfortable with, so this might be the best choice for you - making an informed purchase is key and you are. Everyone is different and as long as they know what their options are, then they can make the most appropriate choice for their purchase!! Some choose to buy a diamond without a report for various reasons, as long as the purchaser or wearer is happy then that is all that matters, after all, that is what diamonds should be for!
 
Thanks for all your opinions, advice, and knowledge. I am waiting to hear about the appraisal, and then I guess I will go from there. For the size of diamond I got, and the price I paid, and the brilliance, crispness and fire that diamond has, I think I am quite fortunate. I guess whatever color/clarity it comes back as..I will keep it and enjoy it. Besides, what''s $ 11 000 give or take? Pocket change! HA! Riiiiiight!
 
Date: 7/17/2007 2:09:28 PM
Author: Nicrez


Date: 7/17/2007 1:18:08 PM
Author: curiopotter
You don't have to have a diamond certified, but may be important to you because the price of the diamond is affected by an accurate measure of what the diamond's grading actually is.

Appraisals can be inflated, so having an accurate grading of a diamond, from a reliable lab, does matter. It matters to YOU because YOU paid for it. For example, their appraiser could tell you it's an F VS1, and it could actually be a I SI2 on a GIA report, and you'll have paid an inflated price for something that obviously isn't worth the money.

The measurements on paper also matter because that also affects the price of the diamond. You could buy a 1.5ct diamond, but what if the angles are too deep, and then you end up buying a diamond for the price of a 1.5ct that looks like a 1.0ct on your finger.

Like I said, you don't HAVE to have a certificate, but the accuracy a well-respected gem lab like GIA or AGS provide you with are far better than an unknown appraiser.

Your other option is just to send it to a well-respected PS appraiser if you don't want to pay the money for certification.
Click to expand...
Actually, Curio I am hoping that whatever appraiser she gets can actually grade a diamond. If they call a SI2 a VS1, then not only do they need to go back to school, but they could seriously be sued. That's greivous. Maybe an SI1 could be called a VS2 or an SI2, based on the 'callability' (some stones are really close calls), but an appraiser is no different than a lab, except that labs may have more equipment to test, and they are generall recognized in the industry as standardized and controlled environments where some are even ISO certified in their equipment being calibrated and checked for utmost accuracy.

Also, Beau13, do NOT go for an unknown appraiser. Make sure they are registered with NAJA or the International Society of Appraisers, insured and not selling jewlery as a retailer or wholesaler. Also ask to see some titles or references if you really get nervous, but a GG from GIA, or even an FGA from the UK is good but not enough. Get someone with more years of experience. Try by searching PS's appraisers and seeing who is in your area you can look up and call. But Curio is right, getting a quack appraiser or one in-house in a jewelry store where you bought the item is just like milking the cow and kicking over the bucket...
38.gif
Click to expand...

Exactamundo my darling. She said the lady at the store sent it off to an appraisal, so it kind of set off a yellow flag. Although, I really can't speculate if their appraiser is being fallicious, BUT it never hurts to get your own to work for you, and not them.
 
There is only one appraiser in this city, every jewelry store in town uses the same guy...I am sure some jewelers do the appraisal themselves...but this guy is highly respected, and comes with all the credentials. It doesn''t really matter if I would have taken the ring there myself, or if the gal I bought it from does. I would rather him do the appraisal, rather than send it to Toronto, were some fairly bogus grade reports and appraisals have been showing up according to a friend I know who owns a jewelry store.
 
Date: 7/17/2007 2:29:05 PM
Author: beau13
Thanks for all your opinions, advice, and knowledge. I am waiting to hear about the appraisal, and then I guess I will go from there. For the size of diamond I got, and the price I paid, and the brilliance, crispness and fire that diamond has, I think I am quite fortunate. I guess whatever color/clarity it comes back as..I will keep it and enjoy it. Besides, what''s $ 11 000 give or take? Pocket change! HA! Riiiiiight!
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are happy so enjoy!!!!
 
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