Need advise on getting dealer obtain more info on diamond

[nos96]

So its getting very close to the time for me to pop the question. I have a deposit on a stone and were are trying ot get the setting right, but on to my question.

The stone is HRD certified, they dont cover all of the necessary measurments to get the best advise available here. Info that I do have found below.
I want to have more info and the necessary maesurments to come to a better conclusion about the stone. He does not have a SARIN and I asked if he knew anyone aroud that did, but he said no. What do I do? Should I insist that I need this info before purchase? What are some ways to get what I am after and not being a pain in the butt? The seller has been very helpful and patient, but I want to do feel good about the stone. I will also mention that I am not tied to this stone if there is a reason to not buy it, however it fits my budget nicely @10.5k... and its also very clean, espically considering the sI2 grading. Drawing of inclusions on the cert are minimal.

What I do know about the stone is as follows:


HRD Certified
Round
2.02
sI2
flour: nil
Color: j
8.19-8.22mm x 4.96 mm
proportions: very good
girdle: medium 3.5% faceted
cutlet: pointed
table width 60%
cr height: 13%
pav(?) depth: 44%
finish: very good

 

[swingirl]

Try using the Holloway Cut Adviser. https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

You will see the numbers you need to plug into the Cut Adviser. This may help you assess your stone without photos. The Cut Adviser can help eliminate the poorly cut stones. Anything 2 or under is worth further evaluation. Without photos it''ll be your eyes and possibly an appraisal.

 

[nos96]

If he will give me acess to the stone, will the appraiser have a the ability to get the crown and pavilion angles? BTW the seller did say that crown is (had someone in store measure?) 35 degrees and also commented that the table is 59.472% but rounded up typically to 60% if that helps

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:47:56 AM
Author: nos96
If he will give me acess to the stone, will the appraiser have a the ability to get the crown and pavilion angles? BTW the seller did say that crown is (had someone in store measure?) 35 degrees and also commented that the table is 59.472% but rounded up typically to 60% if that helps

ask the vendor for a sarin report.

 

[girlie-girl]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:47:56 AM
Author: nos96
If he will give me acess to the stone, will the appraiser have a the ability to get the crown and pavilion angles? BTW the seller did say that crown is (had someone in store measure?) 35 degrees and also commented that the table is 59.472% but rounded up typically to 60% if that helps

You would have to check with the appraiser to see what kind of tools etc. he/she has at their disposal, as I''m sure it can vary. Do you already have an appraiser in mind? If not and you need assistance finding one in your area, you can use the link under the "Resources" tab at the top of every page. Alternatively, here is the direct link:

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

If you''re able to get some more details on the stone, I''m sure the PS experts can help a bit more with advise on whether to proceed or not. Good luck!

 

[Regular Guy]

Girlie Girl is exactly correct. Note...most appraisers don''t have this...so absolutely check first.

As you can see...you provided a deposit to give yourself protection to access...but likewise, you gave the vendor protection to not have to try too hard. I personally wouldn''t shop at a place that couldn''t provide me the access to info I wanted.

Then again...it is very helpful to shop where you can go back to for maintenance (I feel), and you may like this place.

 

[stone-cold11]

From the numbers you give, HCA = 3.5

HCA is more accurate with angles so you might want to get it appraised as suggested above.

 

[nos96]

I do like this place. This vendor came highly recommended by a friend of my mothers and thus far he has been FAR more pleasant to work with. I hate being pressured, and alot of these people push pretty hard. Too hard. I am a sales person and dont appreciate that kind of aggressive nature and attitude recieved when you dont want to give them a deposit TODAY for a very overpriced stone no less! He is very accommodating and I am sure will provide all of the info I reqest which I will do today. I have already found an appraiser thanks to the tool on this site, living in Atlanta, the first option seemed loaded with equipment including an idealscope, these are the first 2 when I click on ga, which do you pros recommend based on info on this resource page? And the equipment each has?

George Houghtaling
GG, ISA, NGJA
Houghtaling Appraisal Service
175 W Wieuca Road, Suite 141
Atlanta, GA 30342
Ph: 404-531-0750
Ph: 678-521-4700

Stephen Turner
GIA AA, AGS, JSA, NAJA
Gemcorp, Inc.
5064 Roswell Road Unit B101
Atlanta, GA 30342
Ph: 404-851-9489
www.gemcorp-appraisers.com

 

[Lorelei]

HRD is a well respected lab which is better known in Europe than the USA, but I also ditto GG's advice that a carefully chosen appraiser might be able to give you more info on the cut quality if you particularly like this diamond. Or if you have time, you could order one of these beginner Idealscopes which might help you.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/cart_zoom_item.asp?Id=2&ShowAdd=Y

 

[nos96]

I actually do intend on purchasing the beginner idealscope, dont know how quickly I can get it though. I contacted the 2 appraisers mentioned above and one of them was quite informative, has a sarin and can do ASSET and says that a complete light performance data report can be done upon request. I full writtin report and appraisal with light data, sarin, and cosultation will be $160.00, sarin only would be $25 plus a few extra for consultation.

 

[Regular Guy]

Though...since I don't know either, I'd be on that basis reluctant to make a recommendation...but I see Turner DOES have a sarin, and given your particular and specific needs, find it a strong argument to consider him seriously. He also has an ASET. If you use him, and he doesn't have an IS...consider getting one, as Lorelei suggests.

edited to add, since I missed your post above...sounds like the $160 will be a very good investment, along with the $25.

 

[nos96]

The stone will go the the appraiser I found on this site on thursday for a sarin, if the numbers all check out there he will do a full report and appraisal. I will have additional stone info soon. Thanks for all of the help

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/11/2008 12:24:00 AM
Author:nos96
I will also mention that I am not tied to this stone if there is a reason to not buy it, however it fits my budget nicely @10.5k... and its also very clean, espically considering the sI2 grading. Drawing of inclusions on the cert are minimal.

Nos96, it looks like Stone was able to ferret out some math for you, to give you a provisional HCA of 3.5...which is not so good. It''s great you''ve found a local appraiser that can help you. But...if you''re going to take a diamond to him to "nail," don''t you want to maybe find another one where, when using the numbers that are available to you...you can be more encouraged to begin with?

 

[nos96]

Date: 11/11/2008 10:04:35 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 11/11/2008 12:24:00 AM
Author:nos96
I will also mention that I am not tied to this stone if there is a reason to not buy it, however it fits my budget nicely @10.5k... and its also very clean, espically considering the sI2 grading. Drawing of inclusions on the cert are minimal.

Nos96, it looks like Stone was able to ferret out some math for you, to give you a provisional HCA of 3.5...which is not so good. It's great you've found a local appraiser that can help you. But...if you're going to take a diamond to him to 'nail,' don't you want to maybe find another one where, when using the numbers that are available to you...you can be more encouraged to begin with?

I must be missing something here? How are you getiing the HCA of 3.5, when there are no crown angles, pav angles, or total depth. Perhaps you put the pav depth % as pav angle? Or are you correct and this is far from good. No one here had caught that in previous post but if your right then thank you for saving me.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/11/2008 10:44:08 AM
Author: Stone-cold11
From the numbers you give, HCA = 3.5

HCA is more accurate with angles so you might want to get it appraised as suggested above.

Nos, I was quoting Stone-Cold11 above...see?

You don't need either specifically the angles for crown or pavilion if you have the %...which you have. The only thing missing is depth...and I think Stone just calculated it from what you do have. I'd prefer someone else do this...but I'm guessing he just added together the % for crown, pavilion & girdle, got 60.5%, and went from there. Doing that, I get 3.6 for HCA...close to Stone's 3.5.

I'm always confused by calculating depth, but I think it IS reasonable to derive it from the info given.

 

[nos96]

I thouoght the same thing, that logic makes sense to calculate the total depth but without a sarin we are playing with numbers that may be inconsistant. I will get those measurements tomorrow.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 11/12/2008 10:42:05 AM
Author: nos96
I thouoght the same thing, that logic makes sense to calculate the total depth but without a sarin we are playing with numbers that may be inconsistant. I will get those measurements tomorrow.

No, the data is there in the dimension of the stone. It is just the depth of the RB divided by the diameter of the stone, which is how the depth % is defined.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/12/2008 10:42:05 AM
Author: nos96
I thouoght the same thing, that logic makes sense to calculate the total depth but without a sarin we are playing with numbers that may be inconsistant. I will get those measurements tomorrow.

A Sarin is best as it will give detailed measurements of the diamond, so when you get it post the results and we can go from there.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 11/11/2008 11:07:04 AM
Author: nos96
I actually do intend on purchasing the beginner idealscope, dont know how quickly I can get it though. I contacted the 2 appraisers mentioned above and one of them was quite informative, has a sarin and can do ASSET and says that a complete light performance data report can be done upon request. I full writtin report and appraisal with light data, sarin, and cosultation will be $160.00, sarin only would be $25 plus a few extra for consultation.

Since you''ve located an appraiser with the tools that you want (Sarin/ASET capabilities), I''d negotiate with the vendor to obtain a reasonable return/refund window. The terms should be "I can return this stone if I''m not 100% satisfied with the appraisal results" within an agreed-upon number of days.

He can mail the loose stone directly to your appraiser; if the stone passes muster for you, you can pay to have it shipped back to the vendor so he can set it in your setting.

The small amount you''ll pay in shipping charges will be well worth the peace of mind in knowing the diamond is what you hope for.

 

[nos96]

The vendor is local and he said yesterday that he has no problem with handing me the stone to take personally without paying for it first. I have a deposit currently, but that could be applied elsewhere if I am not happy with that stone. But I have 2 options, I can take it and have a $25 sarin plus $25 consultation so $50, or the vendor can take it over there and have the sarin done and it will probably be $25 so should i go and consult with him for the extra $ or is that not really necessary?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/11/2008 10:04:35 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 11/11/2008 12:24:00 AM
Author:nos96
I will also mention that I am not tied to this stone if there is a reason to not buy it, however it fits my budget nicely @10.5k... and its also very clean, espically considering the sI2 grading. Drawing of inclusions on the cert are minimal.

Nos96, it looks like Stone was able to ferret out some math for you, to give you a provisional HCA of 3.5...which is not so good. It''s great you''ve found a local appraiser that can help you. But...if you''re going to take a diamond to him to ''nail,'' don''t you want to maybe find another one where, when using the numbers that are available to you...you can be more encouraged to begin with?

Maybe this stone is special. Otherwise, you could do this all day, and lots of times. I''ll stay with my original point.

 

[nos96]

And your original point was to start with a different stone? Just for clarification. Like I mentioned, I can easily choose another option if this one is poor in cut. That is exactly why I am seeking guidence from those that are more educated than I am. I dont need to waste the $50 if its obvious by dimensions, that this stone will have poor light return. If thats not the case I do like it, considering the other aspects: color, clarity, carat, cost, but dont want to spend my money on poor preformance...I am a newbie looking for professional advice. And thanks to all taking the time to give it to me free of charge!!!

 

[swingirl]

What I''ve gotten so far from this thread is why waste your time and money taking a stone with a 3.5 HCA score to an appraiser?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/12/2008 1:09:14 PM
Author: swingirl
What I''ve gotten so far from this thread is why waste your time and money taking a stone with a 3.5 HCA score to an appraiser?

Not sure about the others...but this was more or less my point of view.

HCA is seen as a screening tool at best...not selection. But...with %, it''s not even firing on all cylinders. If you value your hard earned money, and want to take a conservative approach...screen your screening...and double check data that at least, on a first pass, seems likely to be good.

Then again, hope springs eternal.

But...that''s what I''d do. Wait till you find an option that seems to fall 0 - 2, and then double check with an appraiser.

Regards,

P.S. Since I see you''re talking scopes in another thread...I do read that a good IS image, you might be able to judge yourself for $25 could be seen to be more authoritative than an iffy HCA score, too. With this tool, again, being conservative, I''d be motivated to apply it after finding HCA winners. But...you''re getting the idea...

 

[nos96]

SARIN results are finally in. I have to say I am very glad that I did not discount this stone based on the info that WAS available, as the premature asumption was well wrong. Not to mention, in reading all of the warings, rules and text along with the HCA, those scores all mean different things, not that anything with above a 2 is bad, it more depends on what you want from your stone. A shallow stone that might score a 3-4, which by the way, is still well within GIA excellant range, and VERY close to AGS ideal will have light blocking from a close onlooker, but look better from a distance. There is alot of technicalities involved, and even more opinions than that!!!

The independant appraiser said that it was a very nice stone and pretty close to a perfect cut, but the table could be a little smaller (59% prefered), which would offer a little more crown, light performance test was excellant brilliance, excellent fire, and very good scintillation, which the only place it was lacking and not by much. Above all, he stated that it is a tremendous value at the price offered. Either way, thank you all for all of your help. This was a major lesson and education for me.

depth 60%
table 60%
Crown 33 deg
pav 41 deg

 

[stone-cold11]

Good find.

Lucky you stick to it.

 

[Regular Guy]

Nos96

Good for you! You've got 2 out of 3...with YOU being the important one out of three that makes this a win. The other piece (the second out of three) is the sarin result. The 3rd out of 3 does not match, and is just a little troubling.

Pricescope is a combination of science, and bedside manner. I'm not ideal on the latter, so accept my apologies in advance. I find troubling the variance in info, because we are generally told to take the grading report as the authority, and our view of result of the grading report is pretty different than your result!

Possible confounds, and how to evaluate them. If EGL data is working properly, what variance should we expect, given that percentages are used, and are less favored? Likewise, how about the sarin at the corner shop...what variance from usual possible calibration error could we expect? All questions.

Most importantly for you...you have result that matches your positive experience. Congratulations!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/14/2008 11:42:21 AM
Author: nos96
SARIN results are finally in. I have to say I am very glad that I did not discount this stone based on the info that WAS available, as the premature asumption was well wrong. Not to mention, in reading all of the warings, rules and text along with the HCA, those scores all mean different things, not that anything with above a 2 is bad, it more depends on what you want from your stone. A shallow stone that might score a 3-4, which by the way, is still well within GIA excellant range, and VERY close to AGS ideal will have light blocking from a close onlooker, but look better from a distance. There is alot of technicalities involved, and even more opinions than that!!!

The independant appraiser said that it was a very nice stone and pretty close to a perfect cut, but the table could be a little smaller (59% prefered), which would offer a little more crown, light performance test was excellant brilliance, excellent fire, and very good scintillation, which the only place it was lacking and not by much. Above all, he stated that it is a tremendous value at the price offered. Either way, thank you all for all of your help. This was a major lesson and education for me.

depth 60%
table 60%
Crown 33 deg
pav 41 deg

Well congrats to you!!

 

[stone-cold11]

Ira, I think the inconsistency is more likely due to the inaccuracy of the HCA calculation when using % depth to calculate the score than any inaccuracy with the HRD report.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/14/2008 12:27:39 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Ira, I think the inconsistency is more likely due to the inaccuracy of the HCA calculation when using % depth to calculate the score than any inaccuracy with the HRD report.

Stone, too late to edit & correct my earlier reference to EGL instead of HRD, which we know to be more than sound. I hope others knowledgeable may comment.