Need advice on a AGS0 + GIA3x + TIA + 60:60 RB!

[jelliebellie]

I have been searching for The One, and I think I've found it, but I really need help figuring out whether this is a well-cut diamond or not, as well as advice about what to ask the vendor for (other images, Idealscope?).

I posted about this RB, which is a 2.09 VS1, on another thread. MissGotRocks has been incredibly helpful (thank you!), and pointed out that the stone's proportions make it a 60:60. I had no idea what that meant, so I've done some research and gone through old threads, and I'm still a bit confused.

Here are the stats -- the stone has an AGS report from 2009 and a GIA report from 2011.

On GIA:
Color: F
Measurements: 8.32*8.38*4.95mm
Cut: Ex
Polish: Ex
Symmetry: Ex
Table: 60%
Depth: 59.3%
Crown Angle: 33.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Fluo: None

With these stats, I got an HCA of 1.5 (vg-ex-vg-ex), putting this stone within the TIC range.

On AGS:
Color: E
Measurements: 8.34*8.39*4.96mm
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0 (Light Perf, Polish, Symm = 0)
Table: 59.6%
Depth: 59.2%
Crown Angle: 33.4
Pavilion Angle: 40.7
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Fluo: None

With these stats, I got an HCA of 1.2 (ex-ex-ex-ex), also putting this stone within the TIC range.

So here I am, doing the little happy dance because I have an ideal RB. And then I read about 60:60 and started to worry. I am most concerned about the stone being flat and not having fire and having leakage. I don't have experience looking at diamonds, so this one looked all white and sparkly to me, but I fear not having the savvy eyes that PSers have -- which is why I come to you. Is this a good stone? Or will the 60:60 come bite me in the butt later?

Is there anything I should ask for to look for leakage? I have the image from the AGS report, but what else should I request from my vendor to make sure this will have great performance?

Many thanks in advance!!! I really really appreciate it!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Oh, my - I feel like I've helped rain on your parade! I in no way intended to make you doubt your new stone. Let me make a few points to try to ease your mind.

A 60/60 stone is just another type of diamond cut. I think these stones were very popular before the current day Tolk ideal cut stones we are familiar with today. In fact, a couple of stones ago, I had one of them! They are known for their brightness and whiteness. However, my stone was graded by GIA back before the angles were measured and posted on their certs but I doubt very seriously that it was cut to the parameters of your new find. It was a bright, white stone though and I always thought because of the larger table, these stones often times look larger - or spreadier - than say a stone with a 55% table. They are not always the biggest fire producers and while that might seem bad or that they are missing something, that's not necessarily true for everyone.

There are some on this forum that still prefer the look of these stones and they are quite beautiful in their own right. They are not in any sense 'wrong' - just another flavor of cut. You can find all sorts of table, crown and pavilion angles that will produce different looks in different stones as well.

My best advice is to ask Perry to let you compare this stone to a stone with numbers more comparable to the ideal cut stones we see here most often. You've found a very well cut stone and the only way to really determine your preference at this point is with your own eyes. Put the numbers aside and look at the stones to see what your preference is. Having seen and loved this stone, I have a feeling that you might find you actually prefer this stone.

Lastly, be sure you love the stone and not the paper. You've seen other stones and for some reason this one spoke to you more than the others. Follow what you truly love and don't fret! There are other vendors from this site that would be happy to discuss these issues with you as well and help you make the most educated decision regarding your purchase.

 

[jelliebellie]

No, no, no rain on this parade! And I am learning a great deal from you, so it's all good and adding to my diamond knowledge. I still love the stone, and will definitely take another look at it next to a stone to other ones.

One question though - isn't this one still a Tolk ideal cut stone, per the HCA score? Can a stone be a 60:60 cut and a TIC?

 

[dmdshopper]

For what its worth I was recently able to compare 3 60:60 cut GIA triple Ex against a Hearts on Fire (which is supposed to be the cream of the crop Ideal cut) and didn't notice any significant difference between any of them (and one of th 60:60 only scored 2.5 HCA).
I would have been happy with any of the 3. I don't know if thats common for 60:60 cut stones or if i just happen to see 3 rare ones (after all i haven't been in the diamond shopping business very long).

 

[Gypsy]

For what its worth I was recently able to compare 3 60:60 cut GIA triple Ex against a Hearts on Fire (which is supposed to be the cream of the crop Ideal cut) and didn't notice any significant difference between any of them (and one of th 60:60 only scored 2.5 HCA).
I would have been happy with any of the 3. I don't know if thats common for 60:60 cut stones or if i just happen to see 3 rare ones (after all i haven't been in the diamond shopping business very long).

It also depends on what kind of lighting you saw them in. If you saw them all under jewelry store lights you wouldn't have seen much difference at all. You need to see them in candlelight (or equivalent), in diffused daylight, in bright outside daylight, AND in regular indoor light. And you HAVE to smudge them up and handle them to get oils on them from your hands so you can see how they perform under real life conditions (where diamonds are rarely perfectly clean). A well cut diamond will perform better across the board in all lighting conditions (although they do go dark in direct bright outside light sometimes) and ESPECIALLY better than less well cut stone when dirty.

 

[jelliebellie]

A well cut diamond will perform better across the board in all lighting conditions (although they do go dark in direct bright outside light sometimes) and ESPECIALLY better than less well cut stone when dirty.

That's what I am trying to determine: is this a well-cut diamond? Or is a 60:60 inherently not well cut? I ask because it got placed within the TIC range (which is "ideal" cut, right?), got GIA triple ex and AGS0.

I was reading this but I don't know if the stone with the 40.7 PA is well cut (I don't know how to "read" the generated image) https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond

How can I determine whether, by the numbers/angles, this is one of those 60:60s that beat the odds and is actually well cut?

 

[yssie]

A well cut diamond will perform better across the board in all lighting conditions (although they do go dark in direct bright outside light sometimes) and ESPECIALLY better than less well cut stone when dirty.

That's what I am trying to determine: is this a well-cut diamond? Or is a 60:60 inherently not well cut? I ask because it got placed within the TIC range (which is "ideal" cut, right?), got GIA triple ex and AGS0.

Definitely not! A well-cut 60/60 is as objectively beautiful as a well-cut 56/61.5 Different proportions, different sizes = different personalities. You may notice that the 60/60 has a different personality from the 56/61.5 if you examine both in a variety of lighting types, it isn't any "better" or "worse" for having a certain table & depth though - just different!

I was reading this but I don't know if the stone with the 40.7 PA is well cut (I don't know how to "read" the generated image) https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond

How can I determine whether, by the numbers/angles, this is one of those 60:60s that beat the odds and is actually well cut?

From the info we've got there's no reason to think it shouldn't be a dazzler! Post report numbers and exact ct weights as printed on the reports and we can look them up. All the proportions have to work together - the same pav angle (or any other proportion) can be great with some proportions and awful with others. Your stone is fine by the numbers.

 

[jelliebellie]

Okay, I just got a video from Perry. It's a dazzler, in my eyes. Do you agree?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w--BtA0dVY&feature=youtu.be

ETA: Yssie, these are the report numbers:

On GIA:
Color: F
Measurements: 8.32*8.38*4.95mm
Cut: Ex
Polish: Ex
Symmetry: Ex
Table: 60%
Depth: 59.3%
Crown Angle: 33.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.8
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Fluo: None

With these stats, I got an HCA of 1.5 (vg-ex-vg-ex), putting this stone within the TIC range.
On AGS:
Color: E
Measurements: 8.34*8.39*4.96mm
Cut Grade: AGS Ideal 0 (Light Perf, Polish, Symm = 0)
Table: 59.6%
Depth: 59.2%
Crown Angle: 33.4
Pavilion Angle: 40.7
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Fluo: None

With these stats, I got an HCA of 1.2 (ex-ex-ex-ex), also putting this stone within the TIC range.

 

[yssie]

No, I mean the GIA and AGSL numbers that identify the report and exact carat weight (GIA will be x.xx and AGSL will be x.xxx). I want to pull them up online and look at all the info incl other proportions you didn't list/ASET sim/clarity grade w/ plot diagram, I can't see videos from this computer

 

[jelliebellie]

No, I mean the GIA and AGSL numbers that identify the report and exact carat weight (GIA will be x.xx and AGSL will be x.xxx). I want to pull them up online and look at all the info incl other proportions you didn't list/ASET sim/clarity grade w/ plot diagram, I can't see videos from this computer

Ah! Okay

Here we go:

GIA report # 1136532695 (2.09 cts)
AGS report # 01040373520005 (2.093 cts)

Thank you so much!

 

[yssie]

GIA https://myapps.gia.edu/ReportCheckPortal/getReportData.do?&reportno=1136532695&weight=2.09#

AGSL http://agslab.com/reportTypes/pldqr.php?StoneID=01040373520005&Weight=2.093&D=1


Okay, it's a VS1 so definitely no worries there. Interesting that the labs disagreed on grade-making inclusions ETA of no consequence, just interesting

Generally w/ RBs shallower crown + steeper pav + larger table + thin mains (long lgfs) indicates a very brilliant stone, lots of sharp splintery/sparky light return (as opposed to large slow "rolling flashes", almost), these sorts of proportions make for a stone that will excel in white light return through a variety of lighting types... the sheer size of your stone means that words like "thin mains" are relative, though, those are still large facets with large surface area very capable of returning large, bold flashes in the right types of light!

Looks like a nice one, I'd feel good recommending it to a friend

 

[jelliebellie]

GIA https://myapps.gia.edu/ReportCheckPortal/getReportData.do?&reportno=1136532695&weight=2.09#

AGSL http://agslab.com/reportTypes/pldqr.php?StoneID=01040373520005&Weight=2.093&D=1


Okay, it's a VS1 so definitely no worries there. Interesting that the labs disagreed on grade-making inclusions ETA of no consequence, just interesting

Generally w/ RBs shallower crown + steeper pav + larger table + thin mains (long lgfs) indicates a very brilliant stone, lots of sharp splintery/sparky light return (as opposed to large slow "rolling flashes", almost), these sorts of proportions make for a stone that will excel in white light return through a variety of lighting types... the sheer size of your stone means that words like "thin mains" are relative, though, those are still large facets with large surface area very capable of returning large, bold flashes in the right types of light!

Looks like a nice one, I'd feel good recommending it to a friend

Hooray!!! Thank you so so much for your help! I know you can't see the video at the moment, but those sharp splintery flashes of light are what make me swoon about this stone.

 

[yssie]

Good luck

I'll definitely look when I get home!

 

[MissGotRocks]

It definitely looks like a beautiful stone - stop worrying and start enjoying!