Need a guru opinion on a princess cut...

[diamondD]

Hello to all of you diamond gurus out there giving us noobs great advice! I have a dilemma. I am looking to purchase a princess cut diamond from an on online retailer and am having some difficulty in comparing stats. I have narrowed down my criteria to the following:

Cut: Ideal
Carat: 1 to 1.25
Color: D to E
Price: 6,000 ish
Ratio: 1.0 to 1.05
Depth: 63 to 72
Table: 65 to 74

I have found the following 2 diamonds, one on bluenile the other on James Allen. Spec wise they seem to be similar diamonds, so why the $900 price difference?!

Blue Nile | James Allen
price: 6,856 | 5,930
Carat: 1.01 | 1.02
P/Carat: 6,788 | 5,814
Cut: Signature Ideal | Ideal
Color: D | D
Clarity: VS1 | VS1
Symmetry: Excellent | Very Good
Polish: Excellent | Very Good
Girdle: Slightly |Thin to thick
thick to thick
Culet: None | None
Flores: None | None
Ratio: 1.02 | 1.01
Depth: 0.72 | 0.72
Table: 0.67 | 0.69

Any comments on why the difference in price, as well as any suggestions to my criteria are welecome. Thanks in Advance!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/6/2009 6:02:39 PM
Author:diamondD
Hello to all of you diamond gurus out there giving us noobs great advice! I have a dilemma. I am looking to purchase a princess cut diamond from an on online retailer and am having some difficulty in comparing stats. I have narrowed down my criteria to the following:

Cut: Ideal
Carat: 1 to 1.25
Color: D to E
Price: 6,000 ish
Ratio: 1.0 to 1.05
Depth: 63 to 72
Table: 65 to 74

I have found the following 2 diamonds, one on bluenile the other on James Allen. Spec wise they seem to be similar diamonds, so why the $900 price difference?!


Any comments on why the difference in price, as well as any suggestions to my criteria are welecome. Thanks in Advance!

Cut plays a part in the pricing, so the EX Pol and Sym on the BN stone would raise it some.

I would suggest loosening things up a bit. You can very safely go to G in color, and easily VS2. Eyeclean SI1's are plenty, but not all. Just be aware that if buying from BN, occasionally a SI1 is deemed eyeclean, when in realty it's not. So if you don't want to risk having to return it and the expense that involves, stick with VS2. Vendors who have the stones on hand and can eyball them for you, may well have SI1's you might consider.

(I'd also be open to smaller tables)

 

[jstarfireb]

What Ellen said. Also, larger depths are not always a bad thing. Many AGS ideals are cut to 74-78%. And finally, unless it''s an AGS-graded diamond with a cut grade of 0, it can''t be called ideal. Many vendors impose a label of ideal on princess cut diamonds, when in fact they''re not such great performers. I''ve never seen Blue Nile''s signature ideal princesses, but I personally would not buy a princess from them unless it were an AGS ideal. Fancy cuts like princesses have a lot of variation in their cutting style. You really need pictures and preferably IS or ASET images to buy a princess online. Without them, you know very little about the light performance of a princess.

 

[diamondD]

Hello Ellen & Jstarfireb. Thanks so much for your guidance!I have a general question for the 2 of you.

Ellen: You mentioned I can loosen things up a bit. Would it be safe to say that an F & G color diamond would appear colorless to the human eye? Also, as far as table, what range would you suggest?

Jstarfireb: How can I tell if the a BN diamond is an AGS 0? Would I be able to see that on the GIA grading report?

Thanks Again, as I continue to read through the forum I feel myself growing wiser by the day!

Date: 8/6/2009 8:33:03 PM
Author: jstarfireb
What Ellen said. Also, larger depths are not always a bad thing. Many AGS ideals are cut to 74-78%. And finally, unless it''s an AGS-graded diamond with a cut grade of 0, it can''t be called ideal. Many vendors impose a label of ideal on princess cut diamonds, when in fact they''re not such great performers. I''ve never seen Blue Nile''s signature ideal princesses, but I personally would not buy a princess from them unless it were an AGS ideal. Fancy cuts like princesses have a lot of variation in their cutting style. You really need pictures and preferably IS or ASET images to buy a princess online. Without them, you know very little about the light performance of a princess.

 

[ct-appr]

The difference is in the cut of the stones. You should get an ASET image of the stones and compare. Numbers are great but as the saying goes.. "a picture is worth 1000 words". The ASET will show the light return and symmetry issues as well.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 8/17/2009 3:08:39 PM
Author: ct-appr
The difference is in the cut of the stones. You should get an ASET image of the stones and compare. Numbers are great but as the saying goes.. ''a picture is worth 1000 words''. The ASET will show the light return and symmetry issues as well.

What he said

And a little expansion on the subject...

With a round brilliant cut diamond, the total depth measurement is often a concern because it affects the spread of the diamond. Essentially there are only 3 factors which determine its outline; crown angle, girdle thickness and pavilion angle. However a princess cut diamond has more factors to consider, in fact it can have up to 4 differing angles just on the pavilion. These can be shaped to create bulge (reducing depth without changing spread)… or at identical angles (increasing depth without changing spread).

Here are some graphics that might explain it faster than typing:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/princess-vs-round-cut-size-comparison.30688/

Paul Sleger’s journal article on Princess Cut Diamonds is a definite must read!

 

[John P]

Date: 8/17/2009 3:08:39 PM
Author: ct-appr

The difference is in the cut of the stones. You should get an ASET image of the stones and compare. Numbers are great but as the saying goes.. 'a picture is worth 1000 words'. The ASET will show the light return and symmetry issues as well.

Thirded.

This will also show the chevroning on the pavilion which is critical to the personality of the diamond (Huh? Chev-what?).

I think it is insanity for princess cuts to be dished to consumers with between 24 and 48 facets on the pavilion...but NO distinction made about it apart from (some) lab clarity plots.

Can you imagine if the 57-facet brilliant, Leo and Solasfera were all offered simply as "round brilliants" with no distinctions made? That's what's occuring in the princess world and many - even pros if you can imagine - don't even realize it.

The round has undergone a lot of research & development that other shapes have not. Unfortunately the education curve lags too.

Pretty nice how a Pricescope membership pays for itself again and again, huh? ...Especially being free and all.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/17/2009 3:01:38 PM
Author: diamondD
Hello Ellen & Jstarfireb. Thanks so much for your guidance!I have a general question for the 2 of you.

Ellen: You mentioned I can loosen things up a bit. Would it be safe to say that an F & G color diamond would appear colorless to the human eye? Also, as far as table, what range would you suggest?

Jstarfireb: How can I tell if the a BN diamond is an AGS 0? Would I be able to see that on the GIA grading report?

Thanks Again, as I continue to read through the forum I feel myself growing wiser by the day!

Date: 8/6/2009 8:33:03 PM
Author: jstarfireb
What Ellen said. Also, larger depths are not always a bad thing. Many AGS ideals are cut to 74-78%. And finally, unless it's an AGS-graded diamond with a cut grade of 0, it can't be called ideal. Many vendors impose a label of ideal on princess cut diamonds, when in fact they're not such great performers. I've never seen Blue Nile's signature ideal princesses, but I personally would not buy a princess from them unless it were an AGS ideal. Fancy cuts like princesses have a lot of variation in their cutting style. You really need pictures and preferably IS or ASET images to buy a princess online. Without them, you know very little about the light performance of a princess.

F and G will both appear very white, with many not being able to tell the difference, if well cut. Unless someone is highly sensitive to color, G is a great way to save some money/go bigger, and still have the assurance of a very white stone.

I don't want to give a real range on tables, I would just suggest to being open to smaller (and possibly just slightly larger), as I've seen some very nice stones with numbers under your cut off. But, it's not just the table, everything has to work together in unison.

Also, in case j doesn't see this, AGS is a grading lab. In the info on the stone, where you've seen the grading as GIA, it would say AGS, and the report will look like this .

 

[Ellen]

To the experts who weighed in here, am I to assume that what I said about the Pol and Sym grades affecting price to be incorrect? I was under the impression it did, from things I had read/heard here, but if that is incorrect, I would like to know, so I do not repeat it again.

 

[John P]

Date: 8/17/2009 4:45:18 PM
Author: Ellen
To the experts who weighed in here, am I to assume that what I said about the Pol and Sym grades affecting price to be incorrect? I was under the impression it did, from things I had read/heard here, but if that is incorrect, I would like to know, so I do not repeat it again.

You're correct Ellen. Top polish & symmetry grades are indicators of care in craftsmanship and bring a slight premium.

That premium should not be as significant as what one should expect to pay for a better overall cut/performance grade.

As an aside, an old trade way of thinking is that EX polish & symmetry = EX cut. We know this is absolutely untrue but it's still put forward in places. The notion persists more in fancy shapes than rounds, probably because GIA has enforced an overall cut grade for rounds since 2006 - but still assigns only polish & symmetry grades for other shapes.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/17/2009 5:01:00 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 8/17/2009 4:45:18 PM
Author: Ellen
To the experts who weighed in here, am I to assume that what I said about the Pol and Sym grades affecting price to be incorrect? I was under the impression it did, from things I had read/heard here, but if that is incorrect, I would like to know, so I do not repeat it again.

You''re correct Ellen. Top polish & symmetry grades are indicators of care in craftsmanship and bring a slight premium.

That premium should not be as significant as what one should expect to pay for a better overall cut/performance grade.

As an aside, an old trade way of thinking is that EX polish & symmetry = EX cut. We know this is absolutely untrue but it''s still put forward in places. The notion persists more in fancy shapes than rounds, probably because GIA has enforced an overall cut grade for rounds since 2006 - but still assigns only polish & symmetry grades for other shapes.

Thanks John. I did feel the difference was probably more than the reduction the VG grades would bring, but wasn''t sure just how much it could/would actually affect it.

So I guess it''s a little bit of both, which makes sense.

Thanks again!

 

[nkarma]

Not to steal OP's thread, but I just read the links that Todd and John gave and especially liked the article from Paul. My question is should we inately trust the AGS-0 grade? I have seen some diamonds with tables down to 53-55% and depths up to 76-78% on the same diamond. Are these numbers alone a cause for concern for an AGS-0 diamond and also are they cause for concern with such a low table and high depth on the same diamond...aka should the percentages be closer together for a better cut?

Paul's articles seem to indicate that looking at the numbers is definitely not the same as for rounds and that AGS knows what they are talking about as far as cut, but I guess I wanted assurance on this.

My question is related to the fact that I am looking at buying three diamonds (for 3-stone ring) on BN because they have the EXACT setting I want and was thinking the only way to get an assured sparkly diamond from them is all AGS-0. However, BN seems to have the old custom of grading the diamond's cuts on the numbers and there are some AGS-0 diamonds on the website that get their worst cut grading. I still might go with a better PS vendor who has images and have them make a custom setting but am worried about $$ and the setting not being right. But still exploring my options (don't have a proposal yet anyway).

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 8/17/2009 5:52:31 PM
Author: nkarma
Not to steal OP''s thread, but I just read the links that John gave and especially liked the article from Paul. My question is should we inately trust the AGS-0 grade? I have seen some diamonds with tables down to 53-55% and depths up to 76-78% on the same diamond. Are these numbers alone a cause for concern for an AGS-0 diamond and also are they cause for concern with such a low table and high depth on the same diamond...aka should the percentages be closer together for a better cut?

Paul''s articles seem to indicate that looking at the numbers is definitely not the same as for rounds and that AGS knows what they are talking about as far as cut, but I guess I wanted assurance on this.

My question is related to the fact that I am looking at buying three diamonds (for 3-stone ring) on BN because they have the EXACT setting I want and was thinking the only way to get an assured sparkly diamond from them is all AGS-0. However, BN seems to have the old custom of grading the diamond''s cuts on the numbers and there are some AGS-0 diamonds on the website that get their worst cut grading. I still might go with a better PS vendor who has images and have them make a custom setting but am worried about $$ and the setting not being right. But still exploring my options (don''t have a proposal yet anyway).

I am going to go out on a limb here and offer some answers. Please understand that I am no Paul Slegers (The face of Infinity Diamonds here on Pricescope) or John Pollard (his right hand man here in the States) but I have been at this for a while and have some opinions about what you are asking.

I may say that even in the AGS 0 grade you will perceive some major differences in the princess cut diamonds especially. If two stones of the same carat weight, both with AGS 0 grading are looked at side by side and one has two chevrons and the other three, then you are going to see a startling difference in how the two look. Both will be beautiful, but both will be beautiful differently.

As far as numbers go on the fancies, you are going to be lost unless you have software to create a simulated view and ASET picture, or better yet the actual ASET picture. This will tell you where the light is coming from and how the diamodn is going to perform much better than nubers, there are just too many variables with a Princess or other fancy. So while on one hand I will say that I have never seen an AGS 0 cut princess that I did not like, I have seen many that I liked much more than others. And I will further say that until you have seen both two chevron and three chevron princess cuts, you are not going to know which you like better. I personally greatly prefer the two chevron look, but unfortunately, that is going to be the hardest for you to find.

I did not know this, I rarely visit there and have never looked at the sight in depth. It seems to me to be a little presumptious on their part to downgrade an AGS graded diamond according to their numbers. It indicates a woeful lack of understanding about the value of the numbers in a fancy cut such as a princess. If asked to choose only by paper with an opinion from BN and an AGS grading report I am going to go with the AGS report EVERY time.

Wink

 

[nkarma]

Thanks Wink. That helped my understanding a lot. It's good to know that there are definitely better AGS-0 out there and to get the best, I would need images or the vendor to give me an opinion.