Near perfect diamonds

[AprilBaby]

It seems like the last few weeks we are getting quite a few posters who are buying very high color, IF diamonds. Why do we seem to try to talk them out of it for size? If you could afford it would you get a D/E , IF stone? I would just for the perfectness! I mean do you know anyone else who has one? I realize we are all size buffs and know that lower color and clarity gets us a good buy but how cool would that be???? These posters seem to do their homework and know what else they could get but I admire their quest for perfection!

 

[justginger]

So long as the buyer understands that they receive no unaided visual benefit to perfection, I think it's well within their right to go smaller to achieve those stats. I know that I personally prefer (not simply tolerate) much lower colours than other posters would ever consider. To me when it comes to white diamonds, the size is a very important factor, and as I said I PREFER lower colours - so the rarity of the perfection doesn't appeal. However, the rarity of teeny tiny coloured diamonds does, so in that capacity, I do understand.

 

[Circe]

I've always thought very high clarity was a teeny bit of a scam - they're not actually flawless, just flawless at 10X. I'm not sure people understand that, if they're new to diamonds ... so pointing it out seems like a boon (I see the *weirdest* misinformation on other boards with jewelry subforums: apparently it's a common belief that a large table will make a stone look much bigger). But if a poster knows what they want, more power to them, I say! I think getting a mention of facts shouldn't be off-putting, but if the poster is sure, yeah, we should just back up and help them find the D IF of their dreams.

 

[junebug17]

I guess people here on PS err on the side of caution and tend to point out to first -time posters that they could get a larger stone if they went down a bit on color and clarity because some people new to diamonds think that anything less than perfection is not *good* enough, or even poor quality. And this is something I've noticed IRL too.

As for me...well, my OEC is an EGL J SI2, and I'm very happy with it, so I guess I'm not too concerned with perfection! So no, I wouldn't pay extra for D IF. That said, I completely understand that it's important to some people and I totally respect their choice. People do vary after all!

 

[Niel]

If I had a million dollars I wouldn't buy one.


The reason I warn new members against it is because often times the only reason they want one is because DeBeers and other diamond sellers put out the idea that color and clarity is what makes a diamond beautiful. A guy comes in who loves his girlfriend and think "shes the best I want to get her the best," not realizing that those things don't necessarily mean a stone is MORE attractive than a lower color and clarity.

I submit that in some cases they aren't, even!

So if a woman comes here and has done all her research and still thinks the idea of a D IF stone is more appealing than a larger stone, so be it, but a smaller stone, regardless of how rare it is, is not prettier to me than a larger stone. And I believe the general American public agrees with that idea.

Plus, I'm big on getting the most bang for your buck and I find them a huge waste of money.

If I'm collecting a stone, like say Kenny does, I get it, but to spend your money for a certificate that the receiver may never even see or care about seems silly

 

[Ally T]

My pear is a D colour, VS2 clarity. I 'thought' at the time that I had to put the money towards as near as perfect diamond that we could afford. Thanks to PS however, over the last year I have learned that the colour difference between a D & G is really negligent & I think clarity has now become more important to me. If I was to upgrade down the line then I would absolutely consider a lower colour as long as it looked OK with my eternity, which is an F. Basically, looking at all your lovely big bling every few days has hands up turned me into a size whore

On the other hand, I am the only person I physically know with a diamond higher than an F - most of my friends are in the G to H bracket, and the drool over my stone purely for that reason

 

[SB621]

If I won the lotto I still wouldn't buy one. Like Circe said I think they are a scam.

I also think Debeers was a genius (or whoever they hired) for that marketing campaign geared towards men etc with the IF diamonds. The vast majority of people who buy erings are men and I think in their minds they see D,E,F IF as being the best so that is what they want to get for such an important purchase. However, if they talked to their SO's I would bet 95% if not more would drop down in clarity, color or both to go bigger.

 

[JewelFreak]

People come to PS for advice & info, so it's not meant as discouraging to give it to them, then let them make their own decisions. I don't give diamond advice because I don't buy them, but the principle's the same for CS. Many gem buyers have misconceptions, which our PS geniuses can clarify to help them be happier with their eventual purchase. If they ignore it & go with their original idea, at least they know why & what the choices were.

--- Laurie

 

[bunnycat]

I've always thought very high clarity was a teeny bit of a scam - they're not actually flawless, just flawless at 10X. I'm not sure people understand that, if they're new to diamonds ... so pointing it out seems like a boon (I see the *weirdest* misinformation on other boards with jewelry subforums: apparently it's a common belief that a large table will make a stone look much bigger). But if a poster knows what they want, more power to them, I say! I think getting a mention of facts shouldn't be off-putting, but if the poster is sure, yeah, we should just back up and help them find the D IF of their dreams.

double plus that. They are only flawless at 10X, zoom in and you'll probably see something so I can't understand the draw either personally and agree it's smoke in your eyes. For me anyway, the only near perfection I look for is in the cut. A crummy cut on a D IF doesn't make it anywhere near a perfect stone in my eyes. But it seems most people still don't get that aspect and carry merrily on with what the majority of B/M stores tell them that only a high color and clarity makes a perfect stone.

 

[Niel]

I have two beliefs that I follow when helping people find diamonds.
One is that you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate, and loose sight of the overall image of the ring they are creating. Weither it be a guy who NEED a 1.5 ct will buy a poorly cut stone that faces up like a 1.25 and is poorly cut.... or a guy who heard the 4 Cs and now thinks anything less than the top is garbage, and ends up with a stone that he wishes was larger.

My second is that any choice is a good one as long as its informed. I've been criticized by some for making suggestions outside of what the original post was about. I suppose that's true. But I think a person who KNOWS what's out there and still chooses his original idea is far better off than one who does it with blinders on. If presented with all relevant I formation a poster sci thinks a D IF is the right thing to do for them, awesome, because now you have made an informed decision

 

[PintoBean]

All I knew about diamonds pre-PS was clarity, carats, color. I did not know about cut. In fall 2006, my friend started engagement ring shopping. He was elated to find a princess cut from Union Diamond that was E, IF. Being of similar background, and the only one of my friends to be diamond shopping, he left an indelible impression on me. The only other person who purported to know diamonds, although her only diamond at the time was her engagement ring bought decades ago, was my mom, and she would wax poetic about D-F and VV this and that clarity. She was "impressed" by my friend's "E", "IF" purchase.

So when it was MY turn, I went in another direction - cushion, fancy yellow, but finding the cushion of my dream in a VVS2 clarity was something that I was proud of - and something my mom would boast about to my aunties. I just got lucky - the shape, the color, and the clarity was a bonus.

Then I found PS, and learned that SI's, especially SI1's that are eyeclean are GREAT bargains, and that there was a NEW "C" for me to consider - "CUT", and that it was probably one of the most important factor in evaluating a diamond. So when my mom decided to get an "age appropriate" e-ring (hrmph... code for "bigger" ), we went I color, SI1, AGS000. Boy was that a learning experience. The color and clarity and cut blew away any preconceived notion.

Then I learned about fluorescence. Mom wanted another ring from BGD, and this time we went H, VS2, medium blue, AGS000. Talk about a sweet spot, and a softer blow to the wallet!

I always thought that I couldn't go lower than an I. But here I am now, with one of my diamond rings a K color BG blue with very strong fluorescence, SI1. If you had told me in fall 2006 I would own something like this, I would have told you that you were NUTS!

So maybe when people pop up on Rocky Talk, my immediate reaction is to project myself and my "diamond" value system onto them - isn't that how we try to relate? by trying to find common ground? And maybe that's why I have this knee jerk reaction of suggesting that they go down in color, go down in clarity to go up in size or save some money. I think that MY action item is that I should be more mindful of how I broach/introduce the OPTION of going down in color, clarity, price in a more friendly but informative, FYI manner, as opposed to the way my mom TELLS me to do things in life (which she insists is her just "suggesting" or doing "favors" for me). And this is a way of communicating that I know I should also consistently work on in person as well.

As Kenny would say, "people vary", and I shouldn't be transferring my values/expectations onto someone else.

So... sorry for blathering on... just having a diarrhea stream of consciousness moment... must be spurred by my lunch, which was DELISH! !

 

[kenny]

... you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate...

"Get too caught up?" Huh?
To many regular people a D IF can look similar to some J I1s, but the value of these can vary by over twenty times.

A certificate is an independent professional evaluation of color and clarity that helps support what a diamond should cost.
So using a report to prevent overpaying is "getting caught up"?

I say, go ahead and buy the paper, rather depend on the paper to establish the price.
Paper that protects the buyer is a good thing, not a bad thing.
People who buy a diamond without paper are likely getting ripped off.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I would not buy such a diamond if I had the money.

In RT I usually ask such posters if there is a particular reason they want an IF colorless diamond, to make sure they want it for rarity or personal factors, not because they think it will sparkle more.

 

[Niel]

... you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate...

"Get too caught up?" Huh?
To many regular people a D IF can look similar to some J I1s, but the value of these can vary by over twenty times.

A certificate is an independent professional evaluation of color and clarity that helps support what a diamond should cost.
So using a report to prevent overpaying is "getting caught up"?

I say, go ahead and buy the paper, rather depend on the paper to establish the price.
Paper that protects the buyer is a good thing, not a bad thing.
People who buy a diamond without paper are likely getting ripped off.

I think you misunderstood the point of what I'm saying. They get caught up on what its suppose to say based on a outdated idea of what a good diamond is. Of course a certificate is important to have because you know what you're buying. What I'm suggesting, is that a person who cares more about what grade is on the paper instead of how it looks is making a mistake. (Regarding color and clarity. )

 

[kenny]

... you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate...

"Get too caught up?" Huh?
To many regular people a D IF can look similar to some J I1s, but the value of these can vary by over twenty times.

A certificate is an independent professional evaluation of color and clarity that helps support what a diamond should cost.
So using a report to prevent overpaying is "getting caught up"?

I say, go ahead and buy the paper, rather depend on the paper to establish the price.
Paper that protects the buyer is a good thing, not a bad thing.
People who buy a diamond without paper are likely getting ripped off.

I think you misunderstood the point of what I'm saying. They get caught up on what its suppose to say based on a outdated idea of what a good diamond is. Of course a certificate is important to have because you know what you're buying. What I'm suggesting, is that a person who cares more about what grade is on the paper instead of how it looks is making a mistake. (Regarding color and clarity. )

Paper is just the messenger so please don't shoot it.
The paper just reports what's in the diamond.

I agree with the first part but not the second part of your post.

Yes, color and clarity do not make for good light performance, and this is a common misconception in the public.
It's not outdated; this incorrect idea is alive and well as of July 17,2013.
Yes, by all means educate the noob with 1 post looking for a D IF.
After education a few may still want higher color and clarity than is apparent to most naked eyes.

I disagree that "a person who cares more about what grade is on the paper instead of how it looks is making a mistake".
People vary and some just want high color and clarity for the same reason some must have a REAL diamond.
A diamond being real means something to many people, and high color and clarity means something to some people too - I see no logic difference.

After getting informed that cut, not color and clarity, is responsible for the light show if a person, male or female, still wants high color and clarity they are NOT making a mistake.
Please don't force your diamond values onto others.

 

[Niel]

... you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate...

"Get too caught up?" Huh?
To many regular people a D IF can look similar to some J I1s, but the value of these can vary by over twenty times.

A certificate is an independent professional evaluation of color and clarity that helps support what a diamond should cost.
So using a report to prevent overpaying is "getting caught up"?

I say, go ahead and buy the paper, rather depend on the paper to establish the price.
Paper that protects the buyer is a good thing, not a bad thing.
People who buy a diamond without paper are likely getting ripped off.

I think you misunderstood the point of what I'm saying. They get caught up on what its suppose to say based on a outdated idea of what a good diamond is. Of course a certificate is important to have because you know what you're buying. What I'm suggesting, is that a person who cares more about what grade is on the paper instead of how it looks is making a mistake. (Regarding color and clarity. )

Paper is just the messenger so please don't shoot it.
The paper just reports what's in the diamond.

I agree with the first part but not the second part of your post.

Yes, color and clarity do not make for good light performance, and this is a common misconception in the public.
It's not outdated; the incorrect idea is alive and well and thank goodness we are PS are educating on this.
Yes, by all means educate the noob with 1 post looking for a D IF.

I disagree that "a person who cares more about what grade is on the paper instead of how it looks is making a mistake".
People vary and some just want high color and clarity for the same reason some must have a REAL diamond.
A diamond being real means something to many people, and high color and clarity means something to some people too - I see no logic difference.

After getting informed that cut, not color and clarity, is responsible for the light show if a person, male or female, still wants high color and clarity they are NOT making a mistake.
Please don't force your diamond values onto others.

My other posts I clearly said if after educative yourself you still feel color and clarity is important that's great. So don't assume I'm pushing my diamond beliefs on other.

 

[kenny]

My other posts I clearly said if after educative yourself you still feel color and clarity is important that's great. So don't assume I'm pushing my diamond beliefs on other.

Saying people who want higher color and clarity than they can see are making a mistake is pushing your diamond beliefs on others.

That you've said otherwise in previous posts doesn't cut it because noobs we are trying to educate may only see your latest post.

 

[Niel]

My other posts I clearly said if after educative yourself you still feel color and clarity is important that's great. So don't assume I'm pushing my diamond beliefs on other.

Saying people who want higher color and clarity than they can see are making a mistake is pushing your diamond beliefs on others.

That you've said otherwise in previous posts doesn't cut it because noobs we are trying to educate may only see your latest post.

Its like 4 posts above.

 

[AprilBaby]

I think Kenny nailed it on the head! We need to be kind the the person who wants high color and clarity, make SUGGESTIONS in a gentle manner and respect what is important to them!

 

[zoebartlett]

Sure, it would be cool for a minute, but I wouldn't be able to justify the cost. Even if money wasn't an issue, I'd still rather not pay the premium. I'd rather pay less to get a larger stone with a lower color and clarity.

 

[SB621]

... you don't wear the certificate on your finger. Men, mostly, because they aren't the ones wearing the ring, get too caught up in what's on the certificate...

"Get too caught up?" Huh?
To many regular people a D IF can look similar to some J I1s, but the value of these can vary by over twenty times.

A certificate is an independent professional evaluation of color and clarity that helps support what a diamond should cost.
So using a report to prevent overpaying is "getting caught up"?

I say, go ahead and buy the paper, rather depend on the paper to establish the price.
Paper that protects the buyer is a good thing, not a bad thing.
People who buy a diamond without paper are likely getting ripped off.

Oh please Kenny You're just being silly as you know this has nothing to do with what Niel posted about. The question asked in this thread was would you buy a D, IF diamond if you could.

Niel I completely understood what you were staying and wrote something very similar.

 

[Smith1942]

I wouldn't buy an IF. Even if I were a multi-millionaire, I still wouldn't want to waste my money, and I can't see a difference between an IF and a VS2.

However, I can see a difference between Ds and other colours, being very colour sensitive. Assuming the cut is equal, I think the iciness of D diamonds is incredibly pretty. I see how dark my I colour engagement ring goes in certain lights, even with its super-ideal Hearts on Fire cut, and I know I would never buy an I. Then, I see how much my D diamonds show up in low lighting as ice-white pinpricks whereas my I ring fades into the dimness.

So yeah, I've paid for D colour - except they also happened to be the most inexpensive pair. If I had paid for G, I wouldn't have gone up much in size - only four points per stud - and they would have been more expensive than the Ds. Such are the vagaries of BN's inventory.

If I could have got studs that were 20-30 points larger, G, for same money as the Ds, would I have? Probably not...I got a D pendant from James Allen a couple of years ago and fell so in love with the iciness. James Allen has spoilt me!!

But no, if I had endless J.K. Rowling-type money, I would not buy a D IF diamond. I'd buy a D VS2.

 

[SB621]

***saying

 

[soxfan]

I think MANY of us have the "bigger is better" philosophy. For me, I'll take a 2 carat K S12 eye clean over a .5 carat D IF ANY day. It is a scam. I have SOOOOO many friends that say "Well, my husband bought me a smaller diamond because he insisted on quality." Whatever, I'll take the bigger diamond all day...

Some people have been brainwashed by the 4c's...I am glad that this forum is here to help them understand that they can get SOOO much more for their money.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

As Kenny says, people vary. We all have some kind of limits on color and clarity, probably. If I were wealthy and buying an ideal cut modern round brilliant, I'd probably go for F VS1. I have had a few VS1's now and cannot see anything basically with a 10x loupe, so that is clean enough for me. In reality, I was buying G VS1's to get the size I wanted. I currently have an I VS1 AVR and that is the lowest I would go for my engagement ring but I do have VS2 in other stones. And I will go lower in color for an AVC right hand ring. I have to have great cut first of all, and I want good color and clarity as well. Size will never be my #1 spec as I could easily have a 3+ ct stone for what I paid for my 2.3 I VS1 AVR.

I don't see D IF as a scam as it is a very rare and special diamond. But I would never pay for that, ever, and I would not want D-F color in an antique style stone anyway. When guys come here looking for a D IF in a half carat, I make sure that is really the size diamond they want and if those specs have special cultural meaning for them. If not, I recommend going down to F-G-H color and VS clarity to get a greater size. I don't think it is realistic to talk someone down from D IF to J-K SI2, though. If they want high specs, I think the upper near colorless range is more reasonable.

 

[AGBF]

I think canuk-gal, Sharon, has or planned to buy a D/IF diamond...because she wanted one. And anyone who has spent any time on Pricescope knows that Sharon is very, very smart and savvy. She knows what she likes and what she doesn't and she knows the value (to her) of every piece of jewelry she buys.

Deb/AGBF

 

[bunnycat]

As Kenny says, people vary. We all have some kind of limits on color and clarity, probably. If I were wealthy and buying an ideal cut modern round brilliant, I'd probably go for F VS1. I have had a few VS1's now and cannot see anything basically with a 10x loupe, so that is clean enough for me. In reality, I was buying G VS1's to get the size I wanted. I currently have an I VS1 AVR and that is the lowest I would go for my engagement ring but I do have VS2 in other stones. And I will go lower in color for an AVC right hand ring. I have to have great cut first of all, and I want good color and clarity as well. Size will never be my #1 spec as I could easily have a 3+ ct stone for what I paid for my 2.3 I VS1 AVR.

I don't see D IF as a scam as it is a very rare and special diamond. But I would never pay for that, ever, and I would not want D-F color in an antique style stone anyway. When guys come here looking for a D IF in a half carat, I make sure that is really the size diamond they want and if those specs have special cultural meaning for them. If not, I recommend going down to F-G-H color and VS clarity to get a greater size. I don't think it is realistic to talk someone down from D IF to J-K SI2, though. If they want high specs, I think the upper near colorless range is more reasonable.

I'm guessing the objection isn't really to D IF itself as a scam, just that IF doesn't mean IF at any magnification level and I would bet a lot of things that the average person stops hearing anything after they hear the words "internally flawless" and no one bothers to correct their misunderstanding that that only means flawless at 10X, not that it's a scam because you wouldn't really see a difference between VVS and IF, but the misunderstanding of what the term actually means. I've got no proof, of course, but I do know how people's minds work (or selective hearing at least).

 

[SB621]

I think my issue with most of this is that you are led to believe that D= good while anything lower=bad. Same goes for IF=good, anything else is less. I know my DH bought into that and I wish stores or onlines sites would really praise everything in the inbetween. I like how now it is become more popular to go lower in colors, use rose and yellow gold again, antiques are coming back as well. I think people are going less off of what the stats are and more for what is eye pleasing to them.

 

[soxfan]

I think my issue with most of this is that you are led to believe that D= good while anything lower=bad. Same goes for IF=good, anything else is less. I know my DH bought into that and I wish stores or onlines sites would really praise everything in the inbetween. I like how now it is become more popular to go lower in colors, use rose and yellow gold again, antiques are coming back as well. I think people are going less off of what the stats are and more for what is eye pleasing to them.

YES!

 

[Niel]

I think my issue with most of this is that you are led to believe that D= good while anything lower=bad. Same goes for IF=good, anything else is less. I know my DH bought into that and I wish stores or onlines sites would really praise everything in the inbetween. I like how now it is become more popular to go lower in colors, use rose and yellow gold again, antiques are coming back as well. I think people are going less off of what the stats are and more for what is eye pleasing to them.

Thanks SB


This is what I was trying to say, I suppose less eloquently.

But yes to your point, I think colors in diamond should be viewed as colored in metal. Is white gold better than rose gold? No. So why is a D better than a K?