Natural Sapphire Company cuts

[luvthemstrawberries]

Hi all! First post!

I''ve been lurking on PS for a few months, and I''ve learned so much about diamonds from everyone here! Me and my man have definitely done our research, and we feel pretty knowledgeable and have tried on lots of rings while looking for an engagement ring. We were looking for around a 1ct diamond, in a solitaire or simple setting with some uniqueness to it. Problem is, we know we want quality, and quality is pretty expensive. We''re trying to save up money and are having a hard time with the idea of putting down $10k+ and going into marriage in debt for a ring.

While looking online and on PS at rings recently, I started to look at colored stones for center stones instead of a diamond. Prices definitely seem cheaper, and we both like the idea of something different and unique. I''ve read a lot of threads with various vendor suggestions for colored gemstones, and am still in the process of looking at many of them. I''ve spent a lot of time on The Natural Sapphire Company''s website, and they have SO many to choose from! Only thing is that many of them seem to not be cut very well, expecially as shown from the 3D sheet. Maybe I''m just used to seeing Ideal cuts from diamonds and knowing how important cut is (we wouldn''t budge on that with diamonds) in the performance of the stone.

Still being fairly new with gemstones, do I need to find ones with perfectly symmetrical cuts to get the peak performance like with diamonds? And if so, should I be looking at places other than NSC? Thanks so much for any advice!!

 

[FrekeChild]

Are you stuck on a sapphire? There are lots of sites out there that have gemstones cut by American cutters- I''d check out Daniel Stair, Jeff White and Barbara Smigel.

Dan''s-customegemstones.com
Jeff''s- http://www.whitesgems.com/index.htm
Barbara''s- http://www.acstones.com/

There was a thread started by LaurenthePartier not long ago detailing sites to buy gemstones. I''d check those places out.

But really, NSC''s cuts leave something serious to be desired because they are cut for weight, not beauty.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Thanks for the reply!

I''m looking at sapphires mainly because it''s for an engagement ring and most research I''ve done says to use those or rubies due to their durability (and I can be quite clumsy sometimes, so I need something durable

). And there seem to be many color choices among sapphires. I did check out Jeff White already, and his work looks amazing. Definitely cut for beauty. Do you know how his prices compare to something like NSC, and how long it could typically take for someone like him to produce one?

 

[Pandora II]

Cut is not the most important factor in a coloured stone - colour, clarity, cut, carat is the order that is normally put. You can''t buy a coloured stone in the way that you buy a diamond. Coloured stones are far, far rarer than any diamond, so each stone has to be taken as an individual. This gives a huge number of variables.

The reasons that the stones on NSC are not always amazing cut are a) the stones are unheated which is far rarer, b) A lot of the stones are from Sri Lanka - you can''t export rough from Sri Lanka (Ceylon), only cut stones. Since a lot of people won''t realise the cut isn''t always top-notch, it''s not worth the carat loss that re-cutting would entail.

That said, they do provide maps of the cuts which is super-helpful and there are stones there with very nice cuts (plenty of cutters in Sri Lanka/India/Thailand are very talented, just as there are some western cutters who aren''t that great...)


My advice with coloured stones is to look at as many as possible both online and in real life. When you have a fair idea of what you are after, contact a dealer and ask them to hunt that rock down for you. That way you get an expert pair of eyes and access to far more stones than you will find online.

Just want to add my usual caveat - remember that coloured stones are not 24/7 stones. If you want to sleep/shower/rock climb etc in your e-ring then they are not for you.

Some stones are more fragile than others - it''s not just the Moh''s position that is important (which measures hardness in respect of how easily a stone can be scratched), you also need to consider the strength, the ease of breakage etc

 

[misspinky]

Date: 8/16/2008 5:29:53 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Do you know how his prices compare to something like NSC, and how long it could typically take for someone like him to produce one?

The length of time really varies--if he has something already cut that you love, then it's pretty quick, but if he has to source rough for you it can take longer to find the perfect thing. Lauren The Partier is waiting for him to source her some rough (not sapphire though) and is not sure when it will be done.

Spinel is another thing to look into--similar hardness to sapphire and some pretty colors. Usually not as expensive as sapphire depending on the color.

You are definitely in the right place--the people on the forum have an astounding amount of knowledge and are sooooo helpful. If you give us parameters (color, size, budget) we are also more than willing to help you hunt for the perfect stone.

Good luck!

ETA: not sure if concave cuts (like the one in my avatar) are your style (they're usually a love 'em or hate 'em kind of thing) but if you like them, Richard Homer just added a ton of sapphires to his inventory www.concavegems.com

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Thanks Pandora. I''ve never seen that advice and information anywhere about gemstones - very helpful. I didn''t know it was so different from diamonds.

Misspinky - Concavegems.com was one of the places on my list to look! And as far as the love or hate thing goes... haha I think... I LOVE!!

They look AMAZING - every single one does. And I''ve only looked on a few pages so far! I will definitely be looking into his site more, because I love the sparkle of diamonds, but I love the color of gemstones - this looks like the best of both worlds! He only cuts, no settings, right? Did you have your pink stone set yet, and if so, where?

For what we''re looking for... the diamond search was around 1ct (possibly a little bigger). Since I''ve read that sapphires are denser, I guess the search for those needs to be bumped up a little in size. I''m really liking blues, purples/violets, and pinks. I think I like the lighter/medium tones better than the extremely deep colors, but still want lots of brightness. However, I''m open to any suggestions! My favorite shapes are round, oval, and cushion.

And I know how much PS''ers like to help out

, so any setting suggestions are appreciated too! I use my hands a lot at work and outside work (not rough though), and I think I''m going to have to get used to the fancy look since I don''t usually wear rings, so I''m not sure I want to do eternity bands. I''ve been looking at halo settings but not sure yet if they''re too much on me. Maybe just a few side diamonds, or half eternity. I like solitaires but wanted something more unique, so I''ve thought about surprise diamonds as well, something like Mark Morrell''s Flame.

 

[misspinky]

Date: 8/16/2008 6:29:41 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Misspinky - Concavegems.com was one of the places on my list to look! And as far as the love or hate thing goes... haha I think... I LOVE!!

They look AMAZING - every single one does. And I've only looked on a few pages so far! I will definitely be looking into his site more, because I love the sparkle of diamonds, but I love the color of gemstones - this looks like the best of both worlds! He only cuts, no settings, right? Did you have your pink stone set yet, and if so, where?

My stone was delivered and is set and ready to be sitting on my finger....but my fiance decided to kidnap it from the jewelery store and plan some different way to give it to me--so I'm still waiting.

Here's the link to the thread with pictures:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-pink-e-ring.92652/page-2

ETA: link to pics of just stone https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-pink-e-ring.92652/page-2

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Wow that ring is beautiful!! The stone makes it, I think. Hehe, your story make me snicker - yall are both sneaky with each other!

Misspinky - I''m really considering those from Concave - they look so brilliant!! Did you have a hard time choosing between his gems and others or were you immediately sold on these?

 

[misspinky]

Date: 8/16/2008 6:46:28 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Wow that ring is beautiful!! The stone makes it, I think. Hehe, your story make me snicker - yall are both sneaky with each other!


Misspinky - I'm really considering those from Concave - they look so brilliant!! Did you have a hard time choosing between his gems and others or were you immediately sold on these?

Yes, we are very sneaky--it definitely keeps things interesting

And my top two were Jeff white, who does beautiful asscher cuts (and Lost Sapphires GORGEOUS round) and Richard Homer. I was really sold on Richard Homer when I saw the modified emerald cut of my tourmaline. It has the beauty and sparkly-ness that comes from the concaves and the shape of the asscher that I love. My main thing was that I wanted something different but still really brilliant and I felt that while the asscher cuts were beautiful, I would get the sparkle that I wanted with the concave. Plus, NO ONE I know would have anything even remotely like it. My jeweler and his benchman were so impressed with it that they asked for Richard's contact information. Who knows, maybe there will the a Richard Homer gem roundtable in my area soon...



ETA: There are some BEAUTIFUL pink sapphires and spinels in Richard's inventory now (which I'm sure you're aware of if you've been looking at his site)--the strawberry pink spinel was the runner-up for my stone choice

 

[Pandora II]

If you like Richard Homer''s stones, then contact Wink Jones - www.winkjones.com - He works very closely with him.

Wink did my e-ring, w-band and recently set some sphene that Richard sourced for me at Tucson as a pendant and earrings (my wedding present from DH). The e-ring and w-band were custom pieces, the others were stock settings from Stuller, but setting sphene is not easy as it''s really too soft to wear.

 

[Proteus]

Date: 8/16/2008 5:34:23 PM
Author: Pandora II
Cut is not the most important factor in a coloured stone - colour, clarity, cut, carat is the order that is normally put. You can''t buy a coloured stone in the way that you buy a diamond. Coloured stones are far, far rarer than any diamond, so each stone has to be taken as an individual. This gives a huge number of variables.

...

Just want to add my usual caveat - remember that coloured stones are not 24/7 stones. If you want to sleep/shower/rock climb etc in your e-ring then they are not for you.


Some stones are more fragile than others - it''s not just the Moh''s position that is important (which measures hardness in respect of how easily a stone can be scratched), you also need to consider the strength, the ease of breakage etc

Pandora, I have to say that I quite disagree with this. While you''re right that the cut of colored stones is typically insignificant, the only reason for this is that consumers do not know any better. Before all the modern "ideal" standards for diamonds, people didn''t really care much about the cut of diamonds, either. The knowledge just didn''t exist. The reason diamond cutting is so much more scrutinized is basically this: diamonds are all the same. They all have identical optics. It''s easy to focus on a single mineral. Diamonds are popular, expensive, and well-cut goods are worth more now that the general public knowledge exists for the fact that good cuts are better.

Colored stones can be cut to "ideal" standards too, it''s just that it is different for almost every single stone species. But, it can be done. Native cutters do treat them all the same, but that doesn''t mean that it should be this way. If you appreciate finely cut diamonds, then you should be seeking finely cut colored stones as well. You don''t have to settle for shoddy cuts just because everyone else does. There''s nothing wrong with recutting; the native cutters may have cut it singly to maximize the weight, but it can be improved. If the finished gem is much more beautiful, how could it be a bad idea? Beauty does increase value.

I didn''t mean to be rude or anything, but as a cutter, I hope you can understand that I hate to see people feeling like there isn''t something better out there when it comes to colored stones. Cut is an important factor, people just don''t know it.

Also, I''d like to say that no one should wear ANY engagement ring 24/7. Diamonds are really not as tough as you might think. I''m a lab gemologist, so I do appraisals and grading and whatnot daily. I''ve seen tens of thousands of diamonds. Plenty of the diamonds I see from engagement rings are positively thrashed. They do get abraded, and chip, and even cleave under bad circumstances. If you stick to a pretty tough colored gem, they''ll do fine. Just take care of them. My wife has a spinel ring and a chrysoberyl ring which she wears pretty much 24/7 (except anywhere they might be easily damaged) and after several years, they have only a few tiny abrasions.

I''ve also cut diamonds. You''d be surprised at how fast you can grind a chunk off of what is known as the hardest gemstone

 

[chrono]

Proteus,
I have to agree with you. Cut wasn''t important in the past but I have seen first hand what a HUGE difference good cutting can make in coloured gemstones. It can make an "average" gemstone look more lively than a badly cut native stone of excellent colour.

If I had to pick a gemstone with top notch colour but slightly windowed, off centered culet and 30% extinction, and a professionally cut and polished gemstone with just fine quality colour, I''d pick the well cut one. Bad cutting gets in the way of my appreciation of its colour. I do believe good cutting on a coloured gemstone does increase its value.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/16/2008 5:29:53 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Thanks for the reply!

I did check out Jeff White already, and his work looks amazing. Definitely cut for beauty. Do you know how his prices compare to something like NSC, and how long it could typically take for someone like him to produce one?

Hello Luvthemstrawberries! Welcome to the coloured stones world.

You can expect that just how prices vary per carat on NSC, so they do with most other cutters. I scoured NSC for months, looking at colour, clarity and CUT (which is really important to me). I saw some that were pretty good, others that I'd pass on in a heartbeat. It helps to look at the facet diagrams, look for symmetry, good *meets*, etc.

Pandora makes a very good point: "My advice with coloured stones is to look at as many as possible both online and in real life. When you have a fair idea of what you are after, contact a dealer and ask them to hunt that rock down for you. That way you get an expert pair of eyes and access to far more stones than you will find online."

I can't speak for Jeff White on every stone, but when I first contacted him, we talked about colour, clarity, size and shape. I told him I wanted a mid-blue. He said depending on the stone, we would use an estimated budget cost per carat ranging from $900 to $1600 for a heat-treated stone. That's where we started....

Once you get into the "Kashmir blue" colour sapphire, the price jumps.

My stone was an unheated, Native Cut from Sri Lanka. Jeff White brought it in and recut it from a 2.86ct to a 2.04 ct. The DIFFERENCE between the native cut and the *JW* cut is stunning beyond belief. So bearing that in mind, the cost per carat is substantially higher than what I quoted above. Part of that is because I'm paying for the 2.86 but getting the 2.04 (oh but what a 2.04!!

). And the unheated factor makes it more pricy, as does the custom cutting.

All that verbage aside, I have to agree with Proteous regarding the importance of cut: many native cut stones are cut to maintain a higher carat weight. You know when you see those that look off centre on the bottom? That's sometimes an example of a poor cut: they leave it deep so the weight stays higher....

Once JeffWhite recut my round into an incredibly precisioned piece, that sapphire HAS ARROWS like you see in some RoundBrilliant Diamonds. The guys at WhiteFlash keep commenting on how this stone photographs. (here's a picture to show you what I mean)

So for me, Colour + Cut are both elements that for me, are critical in a stone that I would want to use as either an heirloom or engagement piece. For a more occasional piece, I'd sacrifice perhaps cut, but not usually on the colour.

I'll also post side and angle views of the stone so you can see what I mean about how Jeff White's work looks "up close and personal".

Hope you enjoy your foray into the world of coloured stones. We have a lot of fun over here.

LS

First pic: look at these arrows!

 

[LostSapphire]

Side View:

 

[LostSapphire]

Angled Side View:

(sorry, I can't figure out how to post 3 pics side by side...duh)

 

[LostSapphire]

Oh yeah, if anyone is interested in where the ''carat weight'' was lost during recutting:


Native Cut Round: 8.04mm dia x 5.33mm deep 2.86 carats

Jeff White Recut Round: 7.6mm dia x 4.65mm deep 2.04 carats



LS

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 8/16/2008 10:51:59 PM
Author: Proteus

Pandora, I have to say that I quite disagree with this. While you're right that the cut of colored stones is typically insignificant, the only reason for this is that consumers do not know any better. Before all the modern 'ideal' standards for diamonds, people didn't really care much about the cut of diamonds, either. The knowledge just didn't exist. The reason diamond cutting is so much more scrutinized is basically this: diamonds are all the same. They all have identical optics. It's easy to focus on a single mineral. Diamonds are popular, expensive, and well-cut goods are worth more now that the general public knowledge exists for the fact that good cuts are better.

Colored stones can be cut to 'ideal' standards too, it's just that it is different for almost every single stone species. But, it can be done. Native cutters do treat them all the same, but that doesn't mean that it should be this way. If you appreciate finely cut diamonds, then you should be seeking finely cut colored stones as well. You don't have to settle for shoddy cuts just because everyone else does. There's nothing wrong with recutting; the native cutters may have cut it singly to maximize the weight, but it can be improved. If the finished gem is much more beautiful, how could it be a bad idea? Beauty does increase value.

I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but as a cutter, I hope you can understand that I hate to see people feeling like there isn't something better out there when it comes to colored stones. Cut is an important factor, people just don't know it.

Also, I'd like to say that no one should wear ANY engagement ring 24/7. Diamonds are really not as tough as you might think. I'm a lab gemologist, so I do appraisals and grading and whatnot daily. I've seen tens of thousands of diamonds. Plenty of the diamonds I see from engagement rings are positively thrashed. They do get abraded, and chip, and even cleave under bad circumstances. If you stick to a pretty tough colored gem, they'll do fine. Just take care of them. My wife has a spinel ring and a chrysoberyl ring which she wears pretty much 24/7 (except anywhere they might be easily damaged) and after several years, they have only a few tiny abrasions.

I've also cut diamonds. You'd be surprised at how fast you can grind a chunk off of what is known as the hardest gemstone

Proteus, I totally see what you are saying - and agree up to a point. As I said myself, the reason a lot of NSC's stones aren't recut is because people don't know any better. I have steered people away more than once from NSC stones that I feel are too badly cut to perform well even if the photo looks good.

Cut is important in coloured stones, but I don't think it is the priority factor in the way that it is in diamonds. I will buy a stone with an amazing colour and a not great cut over a not such good colour everytime. I won't buy a bad cut (I especially dislike large windows and bad meet points) - lets put it like buying a very good over an ideal cut diamond (as stories in the diamond section show, some people have picked the vg over the ideal as it looks better to them). You don't have to have mathematical perfection.

If cut is your main factor, then going for a precision cut is probably going to be your thing - BUT you don't have to have a precision cut to have an amazing stone. I would also argue that not all 'native' cuts are equal - I own some very good ones.

You can also have a stone recut - why aren't all of NSC's recut??? Because you also run the risk of losing a lot of carat weight and potentially altering the colour. Agreed that there are plenty of stones that only need a 'haircut' so to speak.

I had a stone recut by Richard Homer recently - that particular stone was just over 4cts, after the 'slight recut' it was down to 3.72ct, so I lost over 30 points. I was happy to recut because the main feature of the stone was it's dispersion and I wanted that maximised over any other feature. If my main interest had been the colour I probably wouldn't have done it.

You haven't offended me in the slightest, and I understand where you are coming from. I sometimes feel that people come here from the diamond section, find that it isn't quite as straight-forward as diamonds, panic if every facet isn't at a perfect angle and go away without seeing what is really out there. I'm also not a huge fan of the ultra-precision cuts in any stone - I like old cuts in diamonds more than H&A, so I may well have a different take on it all.

I often feel that PS is a bit of a 'cut cult' and can make people feel that if they haven't got their perfect arrows/HCA score etc then their stone is a lesser beast.

Hope I've explained my point of view better here.


On the no e-ring should be worn 24/7, absolutely agree. I have posted 'debbie downers' on that all over PS, and warned people that their diamonds may be hard, but they're not that tough.

With the coloured stones, if you plan to wear them most of the time, you need to make a decision in advance whether you are prepared to eventually repolish/recut, replace the stone or take the best precautions you can. Each type of stone needs to be looked at on it's own merits. I'm super careful with my tsavorite as it wouldn't be easy to replace it.

My FSIL has a beautiful diamond e-ring that I found for my brother. The cut is exceptional. She NEVER takes it off, she does everything in it - including putting on hand lotion

- it sparkled when she got it, she now cleans it when she's having a shower (on her hand). I think she does it deliberately to annoy me - I've told my brother that if she breaks/chips it wearing it 24/7 when I've told her not to, then he can find her another stone on his own because I won't.

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/16/2008 10:51:59 PM
Author: Proteus
While you''re right that the cut of colored stones is typically insignificant, the only reason for this is that consumers do not know any better.

Well, that''s not the only reason. It would be insanely stupid to precision-cut very expensive unheated blue sapphire or ruby when you could get much higher yield with a reasonably decent cut.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Wow, thank you to everyone who''s posted on here so far - yall have left some amazing advice, and you are super-helpful. You''ve definitely ironed out some of the terms and questions I was unsure about so far. I certainly have the diamond knowledge, but I''m fairly new to colored stones. It''s amazing how different the rules become when you switch over, and how everything can vary!!

LostSapphire - I LOVE your stone!! Yum... looks like the cut of diamond I wanted but with color - best of both worlds!!

I love the arrows. We were only looking at ideal cut diamonds and really wanted that look, but wanted something with a little different statement, so I''m leaning towards color now. Jeff White''s work looks incredible, and I''m also looking at the concave faceting as well - they look very different than the hearts and arrows, but they sparkle so much - tough decision!! If you don''t mind me asking, how long did it take once the stone was cut to get it set? I don''t necessarily need custom work for the setting, but I was kind of wanting to get the stone and setting from one place since we don''t have a lot of time on our hands. But most of these places look like they only deal with stones, then you have to have it sent somewhere else to do the setting. And most places that do settings and stones don''t do such precision cutting.

On that note as well, does it typically take weeks/months/etc for Jeff White or Richard Homer to cut a stone if it''s not already in their inventory?

 

[Linda W]

Date: 8/16/2008 5:34:23 PM
Author: Pandora II
Cut is not the most important factor in a coloured stone - colour, clarity, cut, carat is the order that is normally put. You can''t buy a coloured stone in the way that you buy a diamond. Coloured stones are far, far rarer than any diamond, so each stone has to be taken as an individual. This gives a huge number of variables.


The reasons that the stones on NSC are not always amazing cut are a) the stones are unheated which is far rarer, b) A lot of the stones are from Sri Lanka - you can''t export rough from Sri Lanka (Ceylon), only cut stones. Since a lot of people won''t realise the cut isn''t always top-notch, it''s not worth the carat loss that re-cutting would entail.


That said, they do provide maps of the cuts which is super-helpful and there are stones there with very nice cuts (plenty of cutters in Sri Lanka/India/Thailand are very talented, just as there are some western cutters who aren''t that great...)



My advice with coloured stones is to look at as many as possible both online and in real life. When you have a fair idea of what you are after, contact a dealer and ask them to hunt that rock down for you. That way you get an expert pair of eyes and access to far more stones than you will find online.


Just want to add my usual caveat - remember that coloured stones are not 24/7 stones. If you want to sleep/shower/rock climb etc in your e-ring then they are not for you.


Some stones are more fragile than others - it''s not just the Moh''s position that is important (which measures hardness in respect of how easily a stone can be scratched), you also need to consider the strength, the ease of breakage etc

Very well said Pandora!!!


Linda

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 8/17/2008 11:26:59 AM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Wow, thank you to everyone who''s posted on here so far - yall have left some amazing advice, and you are super-helpful. You''ve definitely ironed out some of the terms and questions I was unsure about so far. I certainly have the diamond knowledge, but I''m fairly new to colored stones. It''s amazing how different the rules become when you switch over, and how everything can vary!!

LostSapphire - I LOVE your stone!! Yum... looks like the cut of diamond I wanted but with color - best of both worlds!!

I love the arrows. We were only looking at ideal cut diamonds and really wanted that look, but wanted something with a little different statement, so I''m leaning towards color now. Jeff White''s work looks incredible, and I''m also looking at the concave faceting as well - they look very different than the hearts and arrows, but they sparkle so much - tough decision!! If you don''t mind me asking, how long did it take once the stone was cut to get it set? I don''t necessarily need custom work for the setting, but I was kind of wanting to get the stone and setting from one place since we don''t have a lot of time on our hands. But most of these places look like they only deal with stones, then you have to have it sent somewhere else to do the setting. And most places that do settings and stones don''t do such precision cutting.

On that note as well, does it typically take weeks/months/etc for Jeff White or Richard Homer to cut a stone if it''s not already in their inventory?

Ok, I''m normally a color rules all person, but I am working on finding an ering stone right now, and I want it to be precision cut-because I want maximum dispersion and I tend to like bigger chunkier facets over the native facets-which can be small. I''m having a heck of a time looking for an ering stone because I''m so particular about it-but at the same time, why shouldn''t I be? I have to wear it for the rest of my life after all. (Well at least some of the time-Thanks to Pandora! Lol.) I personally, dislike concave faceting, again because I like big chunky facets.

LS still doesn''t have her ring yet-I think it should be done within the next week or so, and I can''t wait to see the finished product. I''m sure she''ll be back to answer more fully soon enough.

How much time do you have on your hands? And what exactly are you looking for? Hunting down an ering stone when it''s not a diamond can be very time-consuming if you know exactly what you want (like I do) but if you''re more open with your parameters, then it should be easier.

I''ve been working with Dan Stair customgemstones.com and he is on the lookout for rough for my ering stone, and he actually cut a stone yesterday for me. The thing is, it doesn''t really take that much time to physically cut the stone, it''s more of a problem to find the rough, take care of your wait list, and decide on a cut. I''ve also been talking to John B of GemRite.com and he has looked through his rough for me. But finding the rough can take a very long time.

If you need any help, please feel free to ask us. We''re always up for a gemstone search.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/17/2008 2:06:57 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 8/17/2008 11:26:59 AM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Wow, thank you to everyone who's posted on here so far - yall have left some amazing advice, and you are super-helpful. You've definitely ironed out some of the terms and questions I was unsure about so far. I certainly have the diamond knowledge, but I'm fairly new to colored stones. It's amazing how different the rules become when you switch over, and how everything can vary!!

LostSapphire - I LOVE your stone!! Yum... looks like the cut of diamond I wanted but with color - best of both worlds!!

I love the arrows. We were only looking at ideal cut diamonds and really wanted that look, but wanted something with a little different statement, so I'm leaning towards color now. Jeff White's work looks incredible, and I'm also looking at the concave faceting as well - they look very different than the hearts and arrows, but they sparkle so much - tough decision!! If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take once the stone was cut to get it set? I don't necessarily need custom work for the setting, but I was kind of wanting to get the stone and setting from one place since we don't have a lot of time on our hands. But most of these places look like they only deal with stones, then you have to have it sent somewhere else to do the setting. And most places that do settings and stones don't do such precision cutting.

On that note as well, does it typically take weeks/months/etc for Jeff White or Richard Homer to cut a stone if it's not already in their inventory?

Ok, I'm normally a color rules all person, but I am working on finding an ering stone right now, and I want it to be precision cut-because I want maximum dispersion and I tend to like bigger chunkier facets over the native facets-which can be small. I'm having a heck of a time looking for an ering stone because I'm so particular about it-but at the same time, why shouldn't I be? I have to wear it for the rest of my life after all. (Well at least some of the time-Thanks to Pandora! Lol.) I personally, dislike concave faceting, again because I like big chunky facets.

LS still doesn't have her ring yet-I think it should be done within the next week or so, and I can't wait to see the finished product. I'm sure she'll be back to answer more fully soon enough.

How much time do you have on your hands? And what exactly are you looking for? Hunting down an ering stone when it's not a diamond can be very time-consuming if you know exactly what you want (like I do) but if you're more open with your parameters, then it should be easier.

I've been working with Dan Stair customgemstones.com and he is on the lookout for rough for my ering stone, and he actually cut a stone yesterday for me. The thing is, it doesn't really take that much time to physically cut the stone, it's more of a problem to find the rough, take care of your wait list, and decide on a cut. I've also been talking to John B of GemRite.com and he has looked through his rough for me. But finding the rough can take a very long time.

If you need any help, please feel free to ask us. We're always up for a gemstone search.

LuvThemStrawberries:

If Jeff White (I can only speak regarding my transactions with him) doesn't have the rough in stock, he has to bring it in. And what comes in is not always appropriate for the project. It can take months to find the right rough or native stone to recut. From when I first contacted him to the purchase of the stone, it was over 3 months.

As far as fabricating the setting, I'd estimate approx 6 weeks for Whiteflash to design and produce my ring. This is a custom so it takes longer. It also was delayed due to the change in size of the melee stones - bigger pears - yay! I also had 2 revisions to the CAD drawings so that delayed things a bit but I believe the revisions were worth the time.

The ring will ship last week in August. I *hope* to have it before the holiday weekend. (I've promised Lesley some homemade jam if she can ship it out a day earlier than scheduled: she's acting *noncommittal* so we'll see!

Whiteflash will happily work with you if you provide them with a stone. Many of their stock settings can fit (or be made to fit) depending on the size of your sapphire. I went custom only because my dream ring isn't something they do on a regular basis.

Freke gives you some very good advice above: take the time to get it right. I would also strongly suggest you get a concave cut stone in your hand before finalizing your decision, as they are a design which not everyone falls in love with...and ditto her comments re: the rough taking time to source.

Now, as to whether people love precision cutting over colour, that is a very subjective and personal opinion. To me, it was extremely important to get great cut AND great colour. To others, their preferences may not lead them in that direction.

I don't regret for a minute recutting a native cut to get exactly what I wanted. Perhaps to some, that is a waste of rock. But to me, it made all the difference. And the face-up diameter dimension was reduced by only a 1/2 a millimeter but the recut has made that stone *sing*.

The other reason why I recut the stone is because this is the *one and only* sapphire I will buy: it is to replace my original engagement ring (the *lost* one). It has to be perfect for me or it's not worth all the bother of the project. The setting is quite expensive, so the sapphire needed to be spectacular IMHO.

From the questions you are posting, it seems to me that you are taking a thoughtful, careful approach to your project. It's hard at the start, because things seem to take a while. But I hope that you enjoy the process as much as I have: I would never have imagined 10 months ago that the ring of my dreams would be so near to completion. (But it's really HARD TO WAIT!).

LS

 

[E B]

Strawberries,

I don''t know a lot about colored stone cuts, but here''s one from NSC that I think is beautiful. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a more experienced opinion:

.92 ct Sapphire cushion, blue

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/17/2008 3:42:20 PM
Author: EBree
Strawberries,

I don't know a lot about colored stone cuts, but here's one from NSC that I think is beautiful. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a more experienced opinion:

.92 ct Sapphire cushion, blue

Pretty colour and shape...but have a look at the 3D report: the *meets* are quite off.

LS

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 8/17/2008 3:49:16 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 8/17/2008 3:42:20 PM
Author: EBree
Strawberries,

I don''t know a lot about colored stone cuts, but here''s one from NSC that I think is beautiful. Hopefully someone else can chime in with a more experienced opinion:

.92 ct Sapphire cushion, blue

Pretty colour and shape...but have a look at the 3D report: the *meets* are quite off.

LS

Agree, gorgeous colour and I like the shape - but the cut is too wonky for me.

I''m actually impressed that NSC put up the 3D map - it''s much easier to eliminate stones using it than it would be if you were just judging them by eye.

 

[Proteus]

Date: 8/17/2008 7:39:26 AM
Author: elmo

Well, that''s not the only reason. It would be insanely stupid to precision-cut very expensive unheated blue sapphire or ruby when you could get much higher yield with a reasonably decent cut.

Not really. While the higher yield would apparently increase the value, the so-so cut also decreases it. A lot of it is also attributed to overworked cutters who have to churn things out quickly, with little regard to the symmetry or proportions. You are right in the sense for a dealer thinking in terms of black and white, i.e. more = better. As a cutter, I would never intentionally cut a stone for weight and sacrifice the precision and beauty of the finished piece. Let me put it into perspective this way:

LostSapphire had her stone recut, and this is a shining example of my point. Sure, she lost 0.82ct in the recut, but it went from a 2.86ct clunker to a 2.04ct rocker. You could look at it from the point of view of "it''s worth 0.82cts less now," or from the point of "wow, it''s amazing and unique now. Who cares about the 82 points? They were just getting in the way."

If she we ever to resell this stone (and I know she wouldn''t, because I can tell she absolutely adores it... I''m just speaking hypothetically) I''m sure there would be people lining up, beating her door down to buy it. If she had resold it before it was recut, it wouldn''t be anything special. You could just get a comparable sapphire from a major dealer and pick out whatever you wanted. She would most likely have to sell it at quite a loss. You see, the exceptional cutting of her stone has increased it''s intrinsic value exponentially.

At least, this is my point of view as a cutter. I feel that when a gem is cut in an exceptional manner, it is no longer within the value range of typical gems but is in a unique league of elite fine gemstones. Maybe I''m wrong, but I like unique and exceptional things, and I think other people do, too.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 8/17/2008 6:43:57 PM
Author: Proteus

Date: 8/17/2008 7:39:26 AM
Author: elmo

Well, that''s not the only reason. It would be insanely stupid to precision-cut very expensive unheated blue sapphire or ruby when you could get much higher yield with a reasonably decent cut.

Not really. While the higher yield would apparently increase the value, the so-so cut also decreases it. A lot of it is also attributed to overworked cutters who have to churn things out quickly, with little regard to the symmetry or proportions. You are right in the sense for a dealer thinking in terms of black and white, i.e. more = better. As a cutter, I would never intentionally cut a stone for weight and sacrifice the precision and beauty of the finished piece. Let me put it into perspective this way:

LostSapphire had her stone recut, and this is a shining example of my point. Sure, she lost 0.82ct in the recut, but it went from a 2.86ct clunker to a 2.04ct rocker. You could look at it from the point of view of ''it''s worth 0.82cts less now,'' or from the point of ''wow, it''s amazing and unique now. Who cares about the 82 points? They were just getting in the way.''

If she we ever to resell this stone (and I know she wouldn''t, because I can tell she absolutely adores it... I''m just speaking hypothetically) I''m sure there would be people lining up, beating her door down to buy it. If she had resold it before it was recut, it wouldn''t be anything special. You could just get a comparable sapphire from a major dealer and pick out whatever you wanted. She would most likely have to sell it at quite a loss. You see, the exceptional cutting of her stone has increased it''s intrinsic value exponentially.

At least, this is my point of view as a cutter. I feel that when a gem is cut in an exceptional manner, it is no longer within the value range of typical gems but is in a unique league of elite fine gemstones. Maybe I''m wrong, but I like unique and exceptional things, and I think other people do, too.

Thank you Proteus. I was feeling a *bit slammed* though I''m sure it wasn''t intentional.

LS

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 8/17/2008 6:43:57 PM
Author: Proteus
LostSapphire had her stone recut, and this is a shining example of my point. Sure, she lost 0.82ct in the recut, but it went from a 2.86ct clunker to a 2.04ct rocker. You could look at it from the point of view of ''it''s worth 0.82cts less now,'' or from the point of ''wow, it''s amazing and unique now. Who cares about the 82 points? They were just getting in the way.''

If she we ever to resell this stone (and I know she wouldn''t, because I can tell she absolutely adores it... I''m just speaking hypothetically) I''m sure there would be people lining up, beating her door down to buy it. If she had resold it before it was recut, it wouldn''t be anything special. You could just get a comparable sapphire from a major dealer and pick out whatever you wanted. She would most likely have to sell it at quite a loss. You see, the exceptional cutting of her stone has increased it''s intrinsic value exponentially.

At least, this is my point of view as a cutter. I feel that when a gem is cut in an exceptional manner, it is no longer within the value range of typical gems but is in a unique league of elite fine gemstones. Maybe I''m wrong, but I like unique and exceptional things, and I think other people do, too.

I laughed at the first bolded part and I agree with you on the second bolded part. A beautiful color has a high value in my mind, but an exceptional cut on a beautiful colored stone gets an even higher value from me.

 

[Proteus]

Date: 8/17/2008 5:56:27 AM
Author: Pandora II

Proteus, I totally see what you are saying - and agree up to a point. As I said myself, the reason a lot of NSC''s stones aren''t recut is because people don''t know any better. I have steered people away more than once from NSC stones that I feel are too badly cut to perform well even if the photo looks good.

Cut is important in coloured stones, but I don''t think it is the priority factor in the way that it is in diamonds. I will buy a stone with an amazing colour and a not great cut over a not such good colour everytime. I won''t buy a bad cut (I especially dislike large windows and bad meet points) - lets put it like buying a very good over an ideal cut diamond (as stories in the diamond section show, some people have picked the vg over the ideal as it looks better to them). You don''t have to have mathematical perfection.

If cut is your main factor, then going for a precision cut is probably going to be your thing - BUT you don''t have to have a precision cut to have an amazing stone. I would also argue that not all ''native'' cuts are equal - I own some very good ones.

You can also have a stone recut - why aren''t all of NSC''s recut??? Because you also run the risk of losing a lot of carat weight and potentially altering the colour. Agreed that there are plenty of stones that only need a ''haircut'' so to speak.

I had a stone recut by Richard Homer recently - that particular stone was just over 4cts, after the ''slight recut'' it was down to 3.72ct, so I lost over 30 points. I was happy to recut because the main feature of the stone was it''s dispersion and I wanted that maximised over any other feature. If my main interest had been the colour I probably wouldn''t have done it.

You haven''t offended me in the slightest, and I understand where you are coming from. I sometimes feel that people come here from the diamond section, find that it isn''t quite as straight-forward as diamonds, panic if every facet isn''t at a perfect angle and go away without seeing what is really out there. I''m also not a huge fan of the ultra-precision cuts in any stone - I like old cuts in diamonds more than H&A, so I may well have a different take on it all.

I often feel that PS is a bit of a ''cut cult'' and can make people feel that if they haven''t got their perfect arrows/HCA score etc then their stone is a lesser beast.

Hope I''ve explained my point of view better here.


On the no e-ring should be worn 24/7, absolutely agree. I have posted ''debbie downers'' on that all over PS, and warned people that their diamonds may be hard, but they''re not that tough.

With the coloured stones, if you plan to wear them most of the time, you need to make a decision in advance whether you are prepared to eventually repolish/recut, replace the stone or take the best precautions you can. Each type of stone needs to be looked at on it''s own merits. I''m super careful with my tsavorite as it wouldn''t be easy to replace it.

My FSIL has a beautiful diamond e-ring that I found for my brother. The cut is exceptional. She NEVER takes it off, she does everything in it - including putting on hand lotion

- it sparkled when she got it, she now cleans it when she''s having a shower (on her hand). I think she does it deliberately to annoy me - I''ve told my brother that if she breaks/chips it wearing it 24/7 when I''ve told her not to, then he can find her another stone on his own because I won''t.

Pandora,
I see where you''re coming from now, and I can agree with your points as well. Not all native cut stones are trash, just a large portion of them. I do see native cut stones that are decent by my (extremely picky) standards, just not very many. Not every one is going to be suitable for a recut, and not every one will be greatly improved by recutting. Especially if it has some other problem aside from cut, such as strong zoning or flaws that won''t be removed -- or, a weak color. If you are forced to balance one aspect to another on a colored gem, then yes, the color probably is the best thing to focus on. Not every gem can have all aspects perfect, there are so many variables. But, if you can have both color and cut, you can''t really go wrong.

From the perspective of the gem dealers, they do see those extra few points as more dollars in their pocket. My point of view is that those extra points often just get in the way of the gem''s true beauty (and value,) but not everyone will agree with me.

I agree about diamond cuts, too -- it''s odd, but I find that my favorite diamonds often score a 1 or a 2 on the AGS scale. Sometimes the 0 ideals just don''t do it for me. The old cuts can be fun too, they''re just something a little different. And just like diamonds, colored stones have a range of proportions that yield excellent performance, although their range is smaller. There''s virtually an infinite number of combinations for cutting, and not all of those said combinations will necessarily look great, even though they are within that ideal range. It does all boil down to personal tastes in the end. But keep in mind that poor cutting adversely affects colored stones a lot easier than with diamonds, they just don''t have the crazy high refraction.

Argh! Anything but the hand lotion! I can''t tell you how bothersome it is having to appraise an antique wedding ring with decades of lotion and other filth accumulated on it. The poor diamonds look simply pathetic. Not only is it extremely difficult to remove, it''s utterly disgusting.

Maybe I should take a picture of one of them sometime - you could shock her out of that habit with it.

Yes - most colored stone rings will need some repolishing work at some point. My advice for people is this: stay away from the native cuts with really shallow crowns, very thin girdles, or both. A well proportioned crown and a girdle which is slightly thick will really help for future repairs. But a huge, fat girdle will adversely effect the optics, as will a super-high crown, so don''t go too crazy.

 

[elmo]

Tony, on the recut you''re talking about, the loss was about 30%. For $15-20K/carat starting material like extra-fine unheated ruby, that''s pretty hard to recoup if the original stone wasn''t downright ugly. I think at some point the material itself becomes worth more than the value-add of precision cutting, as long as the result is reasonably attractive.