Natural Infant Hygiene--Anyone?

[monarch64]

I read a bit about very early potty training several years ago, and now that I am expecting and researching all things baby I've seen this come up again here and there. Does anyone here on PS have experience with extremely early potty training? I'm very intrigued by it and would love to implement it if possible once our baby arrives.

Here's a link to one article for anyone totally unfamiliar with what I'm referring to:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/09/nyregion/09diapers.html?pagewanted=all

 

[fieryred33143]

I don't and probably shouldn't answer but I have always felt EC was training the parents to identify when it was time to sit the child on the potty which I just don't have time for.

There are articles out there for everything. I read one recently that said anything potty training before 3.5 is considered early PTing.

 

[monarch64]

Fiery, thanks for your reply. What is EC? Sorry, I have lurked on the pregnancy threads over the years but I still don't know all the acronyms. EDITED: N/m, I just realized it stands for "Elimination Communication." Duh!

I think what I found most interesting about this concept was reading that so many other cultures are much less reliant on diapers than Americans, and that what we consider early training here (18-24 mos) is considered really late in some other countries!

My lifestyle likely will not allow me to do it; I plan to go back to work after 6 weeks pp. However, my husband's work schedule is very flexible and he could even bring baby to work with him, plus his office is very close to our home and my place of employment. I just thought it would be a really cool thing to try (both of us are very laid back) if we could manage to work it into our lifestyle. At this point I'm just researching though, so obviously not getting my heart set on it.

I'm off to go put the crib together! (!!!) I look forward to more replies/discussion.

 

[LJL]

I'm nowhere near qualified to talk about this from personal experience BUT -

I have two friends who have been using some of these techniques on their little girl - she is 16 months old and they have been doing it at least somewhat and they think that it helps. The way that they do it is by taking her diaper off (when it is not dirty) and holding her over the little potty. The psychology is that babies automatically know that they dont want to wet themselves and so they will start to eliminate right away as soon as the diaper comes off and they FEEL the open air. Same reasoning behind why little boys pee all over mommy and daddy while theyre being changed. Their little girl gets held over the potty, pees and poops and gets put back in the diaper. Of course it doesn't work all the time, but they think it has helped with them knowing the signs and with her understanding that she doesn't want to potty in her diaper because it is not a comfortable thing for her.

On a similar note- Both my sister and I were potty trained VERY early - at least from what I have seen on the previous posts- at or before 18 months. However, I think it has something to do with the amount of time parents are home with their kids, the kinds of expectations they have, and the personalities of the children. We had one parent home with us almost all the time (which I know its not possible for most people but my father worked nights to make this happen), our parents didn't want to buy two sizes of diapers and they did what they could to push us into early potty-training. For some kids, it is about finding the right incentives - for my sister and I, it was M&Ms. For my SO, it was a pair of big-boy TMNT underwear. I don't think we have any Freudian sexual problems

I think early training sounds interesting for sure. Good luck with it - if it works, it seems like it would definitely be worth it.

 

[fieryred33143]

LJL, your friends are doing this with a 16 month old or a 6 month old? Because that's a big difference. A 16m old can somewhat understand that a diaper isn't on and that it's uncomfortable to be wet so they need to alert someone that they have to pee. My daughter is 2.5 and she knows when she has to go and knows how to tell us (too bad she's afraid of the potty). I can't see a 6 month old communicating that it's time to go before they go all over themselves. So the parent has to be on top of all those cues.

And I'm not sure I'm a fan of peeing only on cue.

I also think that those in the US have somewhat of a disadvantage over those in other countries since a lot of moms in the US go back to work after 12 weeks so for PTing that early to work, you would have to have a nanny/family/friend/DCP be on board with following those cues consistently.

 

[LJL]

fiery - they would do it with her starting at about 6 months and they still do it with her. The baby was not cuing them to tell them she had to go - it was them just saying "lets take off the diaper and put her over the potty". It is based on the idea that kids dont want to wet themselves, even at 6 months, and will often pee right when the diaper is taken off (or when they feel that peeing/pooping would not result in that pee/poop sitting right up against them). This isn't saying that the little one understands RIGHT AWAY at 6 months what is happening -but the hope is that when she starts to realize - maybe at 8 months or at 10 or whenever, we dont know - that she associates the act of peeing or pooping with being near/on the toilet. She is now about 16 months and they think it has helped a lot with her understanding.


I agree that this whole procedure is going to be extremely hard for anyone who has to go right back to work. And I think most of the reason my siblings and I were PT so early is that our dad was there during the day - and our mom during the night - and had very high expectations. This isn't 100% feasible in the US with maternity leave being so short. With the couple I have been referencing, I believe she is at home while he is at school and he gets home in the early afternoon so they have a lot of one-on-one time with their little girl. My hope when I have kids (3-4 years from now?) is that I have a nanny who is on board with this- like you said -or that I am able to stay home part time, which is also a possibility.

I think that peeing on cue is really beneficial/convenient sometimes -really not sure how it affects all kids. I remember being very young (3-4) and knowing that I couldn't always go pee right when I wanted to. This was great for my parents on road-trips and still sticks with me today. My SO is a bit different in that he was always bugging to go pee on roadtrips and he still hates having to hold his pee for too long (TMI? No such thing). This certainly isn't going to be the case for all kids but I can't imagine it has had any negative effects on me or my siblings. This is just a tough issue in general because many children will be different- I don't want to say "every child" because there are certainly practices that translate -but I will say that I certainly don't envy any of you going through this PT business right now or in the near future. Puppy PT is enough for me

 

[LALove]

Ive heard of this before but didn't research it much because I knew I wouldn't be able to do it with my work schedule. However, if I had the opportunity to schedule-wise, I'd definitely research it and probably give it a go. I know that DS HATED having a wet/poopy diaper- he'd cry as soon as he was done so we'd know to change him. When we did start potty training (at just over 2) it was instant and he never had an accident in just under 8 mos. now. Also, all kids are different- this may work for some and not others but I don't see how it would be harmful to try (though I haven't looked into it much).

 

[milton333]

My understanding is that one of the keys to elimination communication is to make a sound associated with the "business" while it is happening, to begin to condition the child to understand that "hiss-hiss" means pee, and "grunt-grunt" means poo. Giving a name to the bodily function while it is happening (e.g., holding child over potty) allows child to recognize when the function is happening and to begin to communicate when he/she feels the associated urge. Even a young child can make grunting noises, kwim?

I don't know how well it will work, we didn't try.

IME, my son is almost two. I've been told horror stories about how hard it is to potty train boys. Our experience has been that we "model" toilet use. Not for everyone, and not for all bodily functions, but DS has long been used to seeing me sit on the big people potty, and seeing daddy "go peeps." He's been allowed to toss tissue in, and to flush, and wash hands, which is all pretty exciting. He's seen bigger kids going on the potty at daycare.

So, starting around 20 months, we and his daycare provider would just ask if he'd like to try sitting on the potty. If no, no big deal. If yes, lots of excitement and praise (though we don't do bribes), even if nothing happened. Big excitement the first time he did #2. He has been consistently going #2 in the potty for a few months now. IMO, it's easier to recognize the urge to go #2, such that he knows it's going to happen and will either get his little potty in the living room, or take our hand and lead us to the bathroom for the big potty. #1 seems to be something that will come in time, especially with an absorbent diaper, and we honestly don't care, we're very laidback about this all.

Our goal was not to PT on any timeframe, but since he was showing an interest, we encouraged his interest.

Our son does not appear to really have an aversion to being wet or dirty, for whatever it's worth. I know people talk about a natural instinct to avoid soiling, and maybe it's because he's always worn a diaper, but being wet or soiled doesn't seem to bother him. Of course, he's got super-absorbent diapers, so it's debatable how much wetness he ever feels. It may be different with cloth diapers. We change him pretty much immediately after #2, so he's never really sat in it for a long time. Dunno.

But I'm just relating that, from what we've observed, DS's inclination toward "potty learning" has been motivated by curiosity and a desire to emulate mommy and daddy and the big kids, and does not seem to have had anything to do with a desire to stay clean. So, I wonder about whether/how EC would work with very young babies.

I also want to say that we never found diaper changing to be all that onerous, in part because we exclusively breastfed and there just really wasn't that much odor. But I wasn't pulling my hair out to figure out how to avoid diaper changes, kwim? We let potty learning happen on its time frame.

But we've been pleased/relieved that it does not appear that we'll be still working on PTing with a 4 year old. I believe that modeling the behavior and letting DS see us pottying is a natural part of the process that is often missing with other parents. I don't have a problem peeing with the door open when it's just us at home, and unfortunately for him, when I've been alone with DS and he's been too little to be out of my sight, he has hung out in a bouncey chair in the bathroom with me while I did my business. It may sound weird, but you have to consider how weird it is to try to teach a child to do something that they don't regularly see you doing.

 

[Mara]

From what I can recall (haha).. I remember thinking before I had a kit, it sounded like a great idea but then once I had a kid I was like oh heck no. Some people say that 'early' PT'ing before they are really ready is also just 'training' them to go when they sit on the potty but not helping them necessarily recognize when they actually would need to go vs training themselves to go on a schedule kind of thing.

The other thing which has also been pointed out is that any type of PT'ing takes a ton of time. We are doing it loosely, but only loosely, because real PT'ing takes a high level of commitment, aka putting them on every hour or whatever so that you can minimize the risk of accidents. What about when you go out... what do you do then? It always just sounds so stressful to me, even regular PT'ing with a 'ready' toddler seems stressful too, lol.

I also can't imagine a 6mo old or even an 8mo old understanding that, just based on my own sense of what my son 'got' at that age. I guess I could see trying it at 12mo+ or something but even then, I dunno.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Kids aren't developmentally ready to be able to control the urge to go and then get themselves to the potty until they are maybe 2+. Anything that requires the parent to take them every hour is parent training as far as I am concerned. There's nothing "natural" about that! I'd rather change diapers! This reminds me of the practice of putting flash cards around the house so toddlers can supposedly learn to "read". Most of the motives involve parents who have a high need to brag about their kids, in my opinion.

 

[monarch64]

Kids aren't developmentally ready to be able to control the urge to go and then get themselves to the potty until they are maybe 2+. Anything that requires the parent to take them every hour is parent training as far as I am concerned. There's nothing "natural" about that! I'd rather change diapers! This reminds me of the practice of putting flash cards around the house so toddlers can supposedly learn to "read". Most of the motives involve parents who have a high need to brag about their kids, in my opinion.

I'm sorry, DS, I didn't see where you mentioned having experience or knowing someone who had experience with this method?

I am not interested in pursuing this method in order to brag that my child is potty trained before most. But thank you for your opinion.

 

[fieryred33143]

Monnie, first congratulations on your pregnancy. I totally forgot to say that. Doh!

I wanted to suggest the attachment parenting board on the bump if you are interested in reading more experiences. A few of the moms there have done it and some have been successful at PTing around the one year mark. I think the whole point is to be done with diapers around that age. I can't imagine doing that for more than a year.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I did not realize you were actually interested in pursuing it yourself. I thought I was basically saying the same thing that Mara said except my side comment about motive which certainly would not apply to everyone. But I have been to an orphanage in China and am quite familiar with the practice there of sitting babies on potties for hours on end. I am not a fan of this type of early potty training, either, obviously. We saw many little kids on the streets with open pants, too. They would go whenever the urge came! I have trained 3 children between the ages of just under 2 to 2.5, however, and it was pretty quick because they were developmentally ready and we were consistent.

 

[LALove]

I did not realize you were actually interested in pursuing it yourself. I thought I was basically saying the same thing that Mara said except my side comment about motive which certainly would not apply to everyone. But I have been to an orphanage in China and am quite familiar with the practice there of sitting babies on potties for hours on end. I am not a fan of this type of early potty training, either, obviously. We saw many little kids on the streets with open pants, too. They would go whenever the urge came! I have trained 3 children between the ages of just under 2 to 2.5, however, and it was pretty quick because they were developmentally ready and we were consistent.

DS those pictures make me so sad

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I don't have experience using this method but I have experience with potty training a child and have taken child development classes in Grad school. I completely agree with DS. I guess I am more psychoanalytic than I care to admit sometimes but I think Freud was onto something. At 6 months the baby is still in the "oral stage" and should be learning to self-sooth trough sucking (as well as other forms). I AM a laid-back parent and take lots of cues from my child. I think it CAN by psychologically damaging to try to push your child into a phase they are not ready to be in. That is more about the *parents* than the *kid*. Those photos only confirm my beliefs that it is unnatural. Also, T has a friend that had medical issues from her father forcing her to sit on the toilet for extended amount of time. Not worth it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I did not realize you were actually interested in pursuing it yourself. I thought I was basically saying the same thing that Mara said except my side comment about motive which certainly would not apply to everyone. But I have been to an orphanage in China and am quite familiar with the practice there of sitting babies on potties for hours on end. I am not a fan of this type of early potty training, either, obviously. We saw many little kids on the streets with open pants, too. They would go whenever the urge came! I have trained 3 children between the ages of just under 2 to 2.5, however, and it was pretty quick because they were developmentally ready and we were consistent.

DS those pictures make me so sad

I'll have to say, it still breaks my heart.

 

[monarch64]

Uh, I certainly wasn't thinking of forcing our tiny infant to sit on a potty, nor was I envisioning that we would have a child whom we insisted on having potty trained from birth.

Some of what I've read talks about the bonding experience both father and mother can have while paying such close attention to the baby, reading body language and facial cues. That is one of the things that intrigued me. My husband would like to be very hands-on, and since I am hoping to EBF, implementing some EC would provide him with a similar sort of bonding experience and closeness with our baby. Our goal in using this method would not be about the length of time it takes to train our child to use a potty, neither or us are rigid or strict or have rules and regulations we want to instill and in fact our household is very laid back and relaxed.

We had casually explored the world of cloth diapering and I again stumbled upon EC. Again, I am just gathering information and seeking knowledge from anyone who has experience with it themselves or knows someone who does. Some responses have been very helpful! Pictures of children in orphanages which are sad in nature...not so much. But thank you all for your input.

 

[Skippy123]

Monnie, I think a few moms tried it but it didn't really work too well from what they said, that the baby wasn't really aware of what was going on. I know JAS12 or something tried it but it was sort of random how it worked. Maybe she will chime in. I heard about it but I never know when my boys are peeing so I couldn't just sit them on the toilet. I can sort of tell when they poop but feel like I rather leave them in peace to take care of business. I just personally think they are too little to understand what is going on. Maybe it will work great for you and maybe a fun thing to try? I just know for our guys I enjoy the bonding with them by cuddling them and playing with them and I bet your hubby will bond with them that way too. Congrats on the baby soon!!! Motherhood is super rewarding! Oh and if you do it, it would be fun to hear what you think for someone else who wants to try it?

eta: oh and fun bonding through feeding! My hubby just loves being the chef for our guys. He tells them each day what is on the menu, pureed carrots, or pureed butternut squash we made fresh. It is the cutest thing!

 

[monarch64]

Thank you, Skippy. I hope Jas12 sees this and responds, it would be great to hear from someone who has tried it. I am so curious about it!

Who knows if we'll actually end up trying this. I am old enough and have enough life experience to know that no amount of planning means things will go the way you expect them to.

 

[minitiki]

I never tried this with my sons because I went back to work after a week of their births, but my older son would have been fairly receptive. He used to cry whenever he peed and wanted us to change his diaper immediately. I think this went on until he was 8 months or so.

I think Noelwr in Newborn mommy thread does very early potty training with her daughter. A quick search shows that she started to talk about it on page 427.

 

[noelwr]

hiya monarch.

my little girl has been pooping on the potty ever since 9 months old (but you can start as soon as they can sit up straight). she doesn't poo in her diaper unless she's at day care and they don't have time to put her on the potty. regardless of what happens at day care, she doesn't do it at home. so you don't have to worry about them getting confused.

what we do is put her on the potty right after she wakes up in the morning and then after every major meal (fruit, lunch, bottle, dinner, etc). we put her 5 minutes at a time and no more, and sit and entertain her. sometimes she poops, sometimes she pees, sometimes she doesn't do anything. either way, we don't make a big deal about it. nevertheless, if we do it regularly (like once every 2 hours), she will not poo in her diaper. I don't miss those yucky diapers and sometimes getting poop on my fingers! we line the potty with a wet wipe so it is very easy to dump it in the toilet and give the potty a quick soap rinse.

we don't do the early potting training where you have to watch for clues as we aren't with her all the time (I mean on days we go to work), so now she adjusts to our schedule instead of us to hers. the first week, I did make that "pissssssssssss" sound that I read about, but it wasn't necessary. in the end, maybe she won't be fully potty-trained until 2. who knows? she still pees in her diaper. I just really like this system because I don't have to worry about my kid running around with a stinky diaper.

good luck to you. I highly recommend starting early.

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

hiya monarch.

my little girl has been pooping on the potty ever since 9 months old (but you can start as soon as they can sit up straight). she doesn't poo in her diaper unless she's at day care and they don't have time to put her on the potty. regardless of what happens at day care, she doesn't do it at home. so you don't have to worry about them getting confused.

what we do is put her on the potty right after she wakes up in the morning and then after every major meal (fruit, lunch, bottle, dinner, etc). we put her 5 minutes at a time and no more, and sit and entertain her. sometimes she poops, sometimes she pees, sometimes she doesn't do anything. either way, we don't make a big deal about it. nevertheless, if we do it regularly (like once every 2 hours), she will not poo in her diaper. I don't miss those yucky diapers and sometimes getting poop on my fingers! we line the potty with a wet wipe so it is very easy to dump it in the toilet and give the potty a quick soap rinse.

we don't do the early potting training where you have to watch for clues as we aren't with her all the time (I mean on days we go to work), so now she adjusts to our schedule instead of us to hers. the first week, I did make that "pissssssssssss" sound that I read about, but it wasn't necessary. in the end, maybe she won't be fully potty-trained until 2. who knows? she still pees in her diaper. I just really like this system because I don't have to worry about my kid running around with a stinky diaper.

good luck to you. I highly recommend starting early.

Monnie, my SIL does something very similar to what Noel described. My niece will be two in late April, and she has been "using" the potty since ~9 months. I think my SIL started to eliminate some cloth diaper messes and because she had the time (she is a SAHM). My niece goes on the potty after waking, after meals, and if she has been dry/clean for an extended period of time. Granted, the girl is nearly two, but by now she is definitely aware of what the potty is intended for and will sign or speak the word. As far as I can tell, SIL & BIL are pretty laid back about it all. My niece likes sitting on the potty and isn't forced to. She usually will sit for a few minutes, look at some books, and if she doesn't "go" then she is free to run around. She's finally getting to the point where she will walk herself to the potty and is starting to TRULY potty train. Until a month or so ago, it was mostly Mom & Dad leading the way. If you have the time for EC and don't mind that it can be hit-or-miss, any successful potty trip is one less diaper to wash or throw away! I should also note that my SIL and BIL aren't adamant about ALWAYS getting her to the potty. They travel internationally a few times a year and sometimes it's just easier to keep her in CDs... It hasn't seemed to hurt my niece's understanding of the purpose of the potty.

 

[monarch64]

Minitiki: thanks!

Noel: thank you so much for responding! It is so helpful to hear about your experience so far with training.

PPM: thanks for the input about your niece. I definitely go into this expecting a baby to just catch on to potty training right out of the gate; I figured it would take many months and your niece's progress sounds pretty on par with what I've been reading.

 

[Pandora II]

We tried it starting at 5 months. I was a SAHM so time wasn't an issue, and I tried hard. I grew up in a country where diapers didn't exist and kids were PT'd early.

It was a complete failure! Partly because DD would only poop every couple of days so not frequently enough to make any kind of impression. She also refused to sit on the potty at all.

After 3 months I gave up.

She's now 2.5 and shows little interest in PTing