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Nastiest thing I have seen in a while (Grammy's)

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Matata said:
There are a lot of articles about the harm rap lyrics have caused by hypersexualizing women. This is not a one answer issue or a one-sided issue. Until there is some powerful pushback to the misogyny, hate, and hypersexualization of women in lyrics sung by (mostly) male rappers, the harm continues. That doesn't negate the legitimacy of women celebrating their sexuality and using that sexuality in an attempt to counter the harm. In this discussion both perspectives about the issue have raised valid points.
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Definitely true about the general issue with rap, mostly used by men, to hypersexualize women. No argument there. My issue was that somehow WAP is different than the other million songs that have been sung/rapped about sex, sexuality, etc. And my other issue was the notion that somehow WAP is the "problem", which quickly devolved into censorship and issues of gender, sexuality, and wars on christmas. Your posts are thoughtful, even if I dont always agree with your perspective.
 
lovedogs said:
Trans women, people of color, and other groups that are minoritized are being murdered at highly distressing rates, not to mention explicitly discriminated against in a variety of ways. So I think @OreoRosies86 's point was a good one.
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One more time for the cheap seats.
 
Your buddy, Oreo, is the one who 1st brought Christmas into this thread in post #78, clearly meaning to make fun of people.

I know I have expressed humor at the ridiculousness, how hypocritical I find the attacks from some of you on me and the others who expressed a different opinion on WAP and Cardi's performance. I mean, you think you are so open-minded, and you immediately try to label us as "pear clutching" prudish, racist people who hate women and anyone who isn't a heterosexual. Lol

But, let's get serious for a minute...

Folks, and you can find plenty on this if you look, but there have been studies showing that a large percentage of sex workers (including strippers, **** actors, etc) in relation to non-sex workers have been sexually abused in their pasts. Marinate on that.

These careers, while physically safer than they used to be, still very much involve and promote devaluation, exploitation and abuse of women. While I support people's rights to make their career choices and sing the songs they want, I will NOT gleefully celebrate it as a step up for women with some misguided notion that it is empowering.
 
HollyJane said:
hey, let's try not to include pole-fcking with our TV program.
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I’m starting to think you don’t actually know what sex is...

We get it, you’re not comfortable with the performance. You don’t like the song. That’s fine. I just don’t get why you insist on presenting it as something it’s not.
 
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HollyJane said:
These careers, while physically safer than they used to be, still very much involve and promote devaluation, exploitation and abuse of women.
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Yes, there was some publicity a while ago about how **** performers are in greater danger of dying young than people with other jobs.

There's a lot of concern about female performers being coerced into doing things that are against their contract and experiencing actual violence on set, not acted violence. See Ron Jeremy and James Deen.

A reverend has compiled a list of **** performers and what they died of, and their age at death. It makes for very sobering reading. OK, so he's a religious man and is probably therefore predisposed to be against the sex industry, but since he's put these stats in black and white to be easily checked, I'm guessing they must be true. Lots of AIDS deaths. Very sad.


Is there a connection between songs and performances like WAP and real-life bad consequences for ordinary girls/women? Or with the aggressive representations of sex shown in much ****? I have no idea. It's such a complicated question. But young women and teenage girls today report that they suffer the real-life consequences of boys consuming ****, in terms of them expecting **** scenes in the bedroom, and WAP is on the pornographic continuum. We also have to remember that Cardi B. is very rich and famous, and probably won't experience any consequences of contributing to representations of aggressive sexuality in the world.

I guess I'm just old-fashioned, but what happened to a bit of mystery and romance, to "the bat-squeak of desire," as some writer once said? In some way, I find the WAP song and performance to be deeply unsexy, shining a kind of daylight on the wispy smoke of desire. I mean, there's a reason why evening dinners are much sexier than lunch dates.

But I like living in a world where people can make the art and music that they want. While I would never want to do it myself, I like to know that I COULD, even if I don't want to. I guess that's what freedom feels like!
 
Whoa, I had no idea that the word sounding like "worn" but beginning with a p was a bad word on PS! Asterisks above not mine!
 
Jambalaya said:
Yes, there was some publicity a while ago about how **** performers are in greater danger of dying young than people with other jobs.

There's a lot of concern about female performers being coerced into doing things that are against their contract and experiencing actual violence on set, not acted violence. See Ron Jeremy and James Deen.

A reverend has compiled a list of **** performers and what they died of, and their age at death. It makes for very sobering reading. OK, so he's a religious man and is probably therefore predisposed to be against the sex industry, but since he's put these stats in black and white to be easily checked, I'm guessing they must be true. Lots of AIDS deaths. Very sad.


Is there a connection between songs and performances like WAP and real-life bad consequences for ordinary girls/women? Or with the aggressive representations of sex shown in much ****? I have no idea. It's such a complicated question. But young women and teenage girls today report that they suffer the real-life consequences of boys consuming ****, in terms of them expecting **** scenes in the bedroom, and WAP is on the pornographic continuum. We also have to remember that Cardi B. is very rich and famous, and probably won't experience any consequences of contributing to representations of aggressive sexuality in the world.

I guess I'm just old-fashioned, but what happened to a bit of mystery and romance, to "the bat-squeak of desire," as some writer once said? In some way, I find the WAP song and performance to be deeply unsexy, shining a kind of daylight on the wispy smoke of desire. I mean, there's a reason why evening dinners are much sexier than lunch dates.

But I like living in a world where people can make the art and music that they want. While I would never want to do it myself, I like to know that I COULD, even if I don't want to. I guess that's what freedom feels like!
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In all seriousness now- It really hit me reading the research, that so many women who end up in these careers were sexually abused in their pasts. And, then add in on top of that the sexual assaults that occur in these careers.

Believe it or not, I've watched p-rn. I've been to strip clubs. But, after learning all the above - the extent of the prevalence, it was sobering, and I see it all in a different way. And, so, these PS forum folks who are so thoughtless about it, so gleefully ignorant in celebrating it as some kind of sexual progress for women - that is what is shocking to me, not the actual sexual performances.

It's all just so sad and artificial, these sexual displays/performances, these song lyrics. I don't see it as progress, the lyrics about using men; it's just more poor treatment of themselves and others, more devaluing.
 
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HollyJane said:
In all seriousness now- It really hit me reading the research, that so many women who end up in these careers were sexually abused in their pasts. And, then add in on top of that the sexual assaults that occur in these careers.

Believe it or not, I've watched p-rn. I've been to strip clubs. But, after learning all the above - the extent of the prevalence, it was sobering, and I see it all in a different way. And, so, these PS forum folks who are so thoughtless about it, so gleefully ignorant in celebrating it as some kind of sexual progress for women - that is what is shocking to me, not the actual sexual performances.

It's all just so sad and artificial, these sexual displays/performances, these song lyrics. I don't see it as progress, the lyrics about using men; it's just more poor treatment of themselves and others, more devaluing.
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I actually think eliminating the stigma around women and sex makes working in adult entertainment safer.
 
chemgirl said:
I actually think eliminating the stigma around women and sex makes working in adult entertainment safer.
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You are missing a big part of the equation - the history of sexual abuse. That's not sexy. That's the opposite.

And, it's also still not really all that much safer for women in these industries...or for men, for that matter.

But, keep thinking it's cool and all good
 
HollyJane said:
You are missing a big part of the equation - the history of sexual abuse. That's not sexy. That's the opposite.

And, it's also still not really all that much safer for women in these industries...or for men, for that matter.

But, keep thinking it's cool and all good
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If it’s just considered a job like any other job and not stigmatized then performers would be able to report unsafe work conditions and actually be taken seriously.

Maybe there wouldn’t be the same association with abuse if it was more socially acceptable.

The strippers I know are just single moms who need a job that pays well and allows them to work around their kids schedules.
 
chemgirl said:
If it’s just considered a job like any other job and not stigmatized then performers would be able to report unsafe work conditions and actually be taken seriously.

Maybe there wouldn’t be the same association with abuse if it was more socially acceptable.

The strippers I know are just single moms who need a job that pays well and allows them to work around their kids schedules.
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When I'm saying "history of abuse," that's prior to the career choice. It's like 70%. There's a connection there, if you want to learn about it or try to comprehend.
 
HollyJane said:
When I'm saying "history of abuse," that's prior to the career choice. It's like 70%. There's a connection there, if you want to learn about it or try to comprehend.
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I know exactly what you meant.

Maybe I could have been clearer. I’m saying perhaps that connection is a result of the stigma associated with working in adult entertainment.
 
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Buttercookies said:
:wall: I give up.
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You were right. Anyone who sees anything problematic about the WAP genre and the devaluing of one's self and others, will continue to be accused of being a pearl clutching racist prude (all accusations actually made in this thread). And now there's an accusation by Monarch64 that my deceased husband is cheating on me ?
 
chemgirl said:
Yes I do.

You clearly said that you’re speaking about abuse that occurred prior to career choice. So am I.
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Just know that many of the women on the pole were sexually abused as a child, and they were drawn to the career field by how they feel, how they were changed, and it's sad to me. But, to you, go on thinking it's sexy and empowering to women. Maybe you really do understand, and you do feel that way. That's sad!
 
HollyJane said:
Just know that many of the women on the pole were sexually abused as a child, and they were drawn to the career field by how they feel, how they were changed, and it's sad to me. But, to you, go on thinking it's sexy and empowering to women. Maybe you really do understand, and you do feel that way. That's sad!
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I never said it was sexy and empowering. I said there’s nothing wrong with it. Why further victimize people by shaming them?
 
chemgirl said:
I never said it was sexy and empowering. I said there’s nothing wrong with it. Why further victimize people by shaming them?
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I don't shame them. I don't participate in and celebrate the career that just extends and perpetuates the pain, their feelings of shame and the problem like you do.
 
HollyJane said:
I don't shame them. I don't participate in and celebrate the career that just extends and perpetuates the pain, their feelings of shame and the problem like you do.
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How do you know what I celebrate and participate in? This is getting funny.

Editing to add, if you’re talking about supporting people in my life who work in adult entertainment then of course I celebrate them! They’re wonderful. Who am I to tell them where to work?
 
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chemgirl said:
If it’s just considered a job like any other job and not stigmatized then performers would be able to report unsafe work conditions and actually be taken seriously.

Maybe there wouldn’t be the same association with abuse if it was more socially acceptable.

The strippers I know are just single moms who need a job that pays well and allows them to work around their kids schedules.
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This. There are multiple articles about the harm of stigmatizing sex work, and how the industry would be safer if sex work was viewed as legal work.

Also the narrative that sex workers are all somehow victims is just incorrect. Though it is likely true for *some* people, it is not accurate for many others.
 
Folks, we're here to support women, not shame them. All of them. Whatever their profession.

Please keep that spirit in mind or more posts will be removed, the topic will be closed, and time outs will be given.
 
lovedogs said:
I know I should stay out of this, but I have to respond to a few particularly problematic posts. Being white, cis-gender, heterosexual, and upper-middle class means I have a responsibility to call out this type of thinking and these kinds of statements. Silence = acceptance, and that's a problem.

How in the world are you going from Mr and Mrs Potato head being changed to something about marriage is bad? That is some serious logical gymnastics. If you think that WAP is some kind of anomaly then I think you haven't being paying attention to decades of artists singing/dancing/performing in ways that society feels is controversial.



There is NOT a movement to take away Christmas. Never has been and never will be. The only "movement" is to make people realize that Christmas is not some kind of "default" or "correct" holiday. It does not hold any kind of special privilege among holidays. It is equal with all of the other holidays people celebrate around the same time of year. It's actually quite a nice parallel to issues of marriage. Does gay marriage "attack" heterosexual marriage? nope. It doesn't. People being treated equally is not oppression. Do individuals that are trans or non-binary somehow threaten those of us who are cis-gender? Nope. Not even a little.



Yes, you missed many things. Look again, particularly at depictions of Black and Asian people. They are racist, period.
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I'm not sure what book the Black people were shown in but I didn't see it in the ones I viewed. As far as the Asian, I did see one and to me it was not offensive looking, how are you supposed to portray someone as Asian with out using the characteristics? (No offense meant)
 
Ella said:
Folks, we're here to support women, not shame them. All of them. Whatever their profession.

Please keep that spirit in mind or more posts will be removed, the topic will be closed, and time outs will be given.
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Ella,

Can we go ahead and close this topic. I think it's getting into the weeds with various other topics and I don't wish for anyone to be offended or hurt
 
autumngems said:
I'm not sure what book the Black people were shown in but I didn't see it in the ones I viewed. As far as the Asian, I did see one and to me it was not offensive looking, how are you supposed to portray someone as Asian with out using the characteristics? (No offense meant)
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How are you supposed to depict an Asian person without using literal lines instead of eyes, stereotyped hats/shoes, and a caption that reads "a china boy who eats with sticks"? Or the other caption that reads "...people who wear their eyes in a slant"? You honestly dont see the issue here?

And the image depicting "African" people was a drawing of literal monkeys. So yeah, it's all a freaking offensive disaster
 
autumngems said:
Ella,

Can we go ahead and close this topic. I think it's getting into the weeds with various other topics and I don't wish for anyone to be offended or hurt
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Yeah, this topic devolved into people lobbing personal attacks at me- accusing me of being another member and my husband cheating on me.

FYI to all: This is my first time membership on this forum. I've never had another forum name here. My husband really is dead, not cheating on me.
 
HollyJane said:
Yeah, this topic devolved into people lobbing personal attacks at me- accusing me of being another member and my husband cheating on me.

FYI to all: This is my first time membership on this forum. I've never had another forum name here. My husband really is dead, not cheating on me.
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Sorry HollyJane,

it's a bit much
 
lovedogs said:
How are you supposed to depict an Asian person without using literal lines instead of eyes, stereotyped hats/shoes, and a caption that reads "a china boy who eats with sticks"? Or the other caption that reads "...people who wear their eyes in a slant"? You honestly dont see the issue here?

And the image depicting "African" people was a drawing of literal monkeys. So yeah, it's all a freaking offensive disaster
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The sad thing is so many people truly don’t understand how this is racist. Instead of taking a few minutes to educate themselves, they scream “cancel culture” and play the victim :roll:.

This whole thread started with an article quoting Tucker Carlson. His segment was meant to garner outrage that something like the Grammy performance is allowed to happen while certain Dr. Seuss books aren’t being printed anymore. It’s just more white supremacy and I hate seeing it on PS.
 
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