My 1st diamond! Is this a good deal

[mr30]

Great folks here! I am going buy my 1st diamond, and this is what I have set in sight. Although it only got a HCA score of 2.7, this seems to be a good deal. The offer is around $5700. Any comments on the diamond and the offered price?

Thanks.

 

[Golden_bird]

Great folks here! I am going buy my 1st diamond, and this is what I have set in sight. Although it only got a HCA score of 2.7, this seems to be a good deal. The offer is around $5700. Any comments on the diamond and the offered price?

Thanks.

I think you could get a better diamond for that price online ! This stone will not simple be that sparkly and fiery !There is no good deals on diamonds!they discounted for the reason !no one will sell you something without making sufficient profit ! Is that the local jeweler who offered you a stone !??

 

[flyingpig]

It is not bad. It is not great either.
I would not pay more than 5.3k for a 0.9x colorless VS stone.
5.5k is the absolute max if the cut is great. But in this case, neither the price or the cut is great.

 

[mr30]

I think you could get a better diamond for that price online ! This stone will not simple be that sparkly and fiery !There is no good deals on diamonds!they discounted for the reason !no one will sell you something without making sufficient profit ! Is that the local jeweler who offered you a stone !??

Thank you for your comment. Yes this is a local jewelry store. May I know what wrong with this stone? Is it the cutting? I checked other stores and they are offering 50% premium than this one for similar stone. I also checked the online stores like blueniles and seems like the online stores are offering similar price for this grade of diamond. Thanks.

 

[tyty333]

I would want to see an aset image or an idealscope image with these numbers. Can you asked to see if you can get them?

 

[tyty333]

Here you go...better crown/pavilion combo...not as deep. 1 step lower in clarity but as you can see its clean...AND about $800 less.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5211344

Edit...it took about 30 seconds to find that one. I'm sure there are others out there.
It does have strong Fluor. You would have to ask the gemologist if it had any side effects.

 

[sledge]

I agree with the others. I think you can do better (on the cut quality) for the money. Why have you chosen such high color & clarity? I've seen this in many Asian cultures and wondering if we need to be sensitive of anything like your culture preferences to help guide you properly. Or is it that you and/or your soon to be Mrs very color & clarity sensitive?

Generally speaking, most people find greater value in a G+ color and eye clean SI1+ clarity stone.

I would want to see an aset image or an idealscope image with these numbers. Can you asked to see if you can get them?

FYI, the reason @tyty333 is suggesting images is a 35.5 crown does not pair well with a 40.8 pavilion angle. Especially in (most) GIA stones where the symmetry and other factors are not perfect. The stone is pushing the border on being too deep, I'd prefer a table < 57 and I personally don't care for the 80 LGF's either.

Here you go...better crown/pavilion combo...not as deep. 1 step lower in clarity but as you can see its clean...AND about $800 less.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...e-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-5211344

Edit...it took about 30 seconds to find that one. I'm sure there are others out there.

Much better. 55 table, 35 crown & 40.6 pavilion. That diamond will have lots of fire. My only concern is that it has STRONG flour, and in a high color like E that can be a negative. If you consider this stone, you will want to ask JA to pull the stone and ensure the fluor is not causing any problems.

 

[sledge]

1.05ct F VS2, $5,630 (56 table, 35.5/40.6) - Verify strong fluor is not a problem. Over 1 carat!
https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/117363...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

0.90ct D VS1, $4,237 (58 table, 35/40.6) - Verify very strong fluor is not a problem.
https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/117780...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

0.85ct D VS1, $5,400 (N/A) - Request GIA cert from B2C
https://www.b2cjewels.com/dd/118048...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

 

[Dancing Fire]

Much better. 55 table, 35 crown & 40.6 pavilion. That diamond will have lots of fire. My only concern is that it has STRONG flour, and in a high color like E that can be a negative. If you consider this stone, you will want to ask JA to pull the stone and ensure the fluor is not causing any problems.

AFAIK, JA stones are not in-house.

 

[lovedogs]

You can definitely do better for that size stone. See the recs above, I think those are great!

 

[WinkHPD]

Thank you for your comment. Yes this is a local jewelry store. May I know what wrong with this stone? Is it the cutting? I checked other stores and they are offering 50% premium than this one for similar stone. I also checked the online stores like blueniles and seems like the online stores are offering similar price for this grade of diamond. Thanks.

As a member of the trade, I may not comment on individual diamonds that you are considering. I am however going to comment on your comment marked in Blue above. If I understand what you are saying correctly, the store you found your diamond as is cheaper than the other stores in your area for similarly graded diamonds.

This raises the question in my mind that you may be looking at other diamonds that are E-VS2's and comparing prices as if you are comparing apples to apples. Are you aware of how much the price and more importantly the value, can be changed by the cutting quality of the diamond?

Here is the report you posted:

It would not be hard for the prosumers here to do a little research and find a one carat diamond with the same color and clarity grade and a diameter of the same or even less that is priced at a much higher price because it reached the 1.00 ct weight. It would be a mostly lifeless lump of crystallized carbon and its value would actually be much lower than the 0.92 carat that you are asking about here, yet the price would be higher to those who do not have the knowledge to know that the diamond is worth much less. Conversely, they might also find a diamond that has the same diameter or even a little less that is cut magnificently , sparkling like the marching band dressed in sequins at the halftime show. Let's say they found one such diamond that weighed 0.90 ct and cost several hundred dollars more. Just looking at the size, color and clarity, you might think it was over priced.

However, if you looked at them side by side you would never even think about the extra money as you would instantly see that the visual appearance makes the 0.90 ct. a better value than the 0.92 ct. diamond. Granted, the 0.92 is prettier than the 1.00ct dog that was found that should have been a 0.92 ct or slightly smaller had it been properly cut, but it does not begin to stand up to the 0.90 ct that is cut to more exacting standards.

If you are not considering cut into your pricing equations, you are not getting the information that you need to make an educated choice. The nice thing is that there are a lot of very helpful people here who can help you make an informed choice so that you are not fooled by the sometimes difficult to judge manner in which the numbers on the report actually affect the beauty of the diamond being considered.

Wink

P.S. Just for fun I did a quick search on Rap and here is a 1 ct E-VS2 for $10,584. I posit my opinion that the 0.92 ct you have already been discouraged from buying is worth more!

 

[Dancing Fire]

P.S. Just for fun I did a quick search on Rap and here is a 1 ct E-VS2 for $10,584. I posit my opinion that the 0.92 ct you have already been discouraged from buying is worth more!

Is it legal to cut that stone? why waste the rough?

 

[WinkHPD]

LOL, not only is it legal, it is far from the worst cut that I found while looking. I would do a quick weight estimation on a recut to a proper weight, but the pavilion at a 40 degree pavilion angle is too shallow to allow a quick and easy estimation as the girdle will have to be reduced to allow for a proper pavilion angle.

My guess is this diamond could have been cut to be a super ideal in the mid .70's to possibly mid .80's.

The sad thing is that some poor victim will buy this diamond thinking that it is a good find and never knowing why his wife's ring just pales by comparison to her friend's diamonds. This is a perfect example of why I say a properly cut diamond may cost a few dollars more per finished carat, but the extra beauty makes it a MUCH better value. The example I posted above is a prime example of a swindle cut diamond that was cut only for the weight, beauty had no part in the planning for the cutting of this diamond.

Wink

 

[sledge]

67.3 depth and 39/40 angle combo? How do people sleep at night selling garbage like that? Makes me want to jump in the trade to educate as many people and save them from such a mistake.

But @Wink makes a valid point, the hardest C (cut) to evaluate with limited knowledge is also the most critical at defining true stone value and personal satisfaction.

 

[sledge]

The above made me think, is there a reference guide somewhere (similar to AGS charts) for crown, girdle and pavilion depths that would allow a fairly quick and easy evaluation at a deeper level?

Or do I need software of sorts? If so, what and is it affordable for an enthusiast?

@Wink?

 

[WinkHPD]

The above made me think, is there a reference guide somewhere (similar to AGS charts) for crown, girdle and pavilion depths that would allow a fairly quick and easy evaluation at a deeper level?

Sledge, I do not think so. Of course, you can look up diamonds on the Rap Sheet, but there is not necessarily any correlation between pricing and cutting. If there were, the example I posted yesterday would have been several thousand dollars less than it was.

Those who throw out their appraisal sign on the street after six months in the trade are not properly prepared or trained to doing good appraisals as it is much harder to do than you might think. You need experience in making jewelry to evaluate the jewelry portion. You need experience in diamond grading to tell whether or not the diamond you are being asked to evaluate was given a "lucky" grade. You need experience in evaluating the cut and also judging how well the numbers that might indicate the diamond is well cut are actually doing by the use of reflector technology. To be honest, back when I did appraisals there was no reflector technology.

In short, you need to pay your dues, and there are no shortcuts that I am aware of. I used to do appraisals and even was an expert witness at both State and Federal criminal trials and civil trials. It was not easy, and it was definitely not fun. (Well, alright, the time I walked out of a deposition to go to my son's birthday party was fun. The opposition attorney had been at me for over three hours and had not had any substantive questions for the last two of them. When I told him I had a birthday party to go to he told me I would leave when he told me I could leave. I stood up and left him sputtering. DANG, THAT was FUN!)

I quit doing trial work many years ago. I met and became aware of just how incredibly good at it Neil Beaty was and saw no reason for me to do it any longer. There was also no longer any reason for me to take time away from what I would rather do, which is working with people to help them celebrate the important milestones of their lives, so I also quit doing appraisals on things I did not sell. I do those as a service that I believe should come with the purchase of a diamond and the jewelry that it is put into. I actually know exactly how much it costs to make that jewelry and to buy the diamonds I use in it. I also know what I will sell those things for, so who else is better suited to put that value on paper for the insurance company to use?

Wink

 

[sledge]

@Wink, I always enjoy reading your posts. Thank you for sharing all this. I truly wish I could have been there to see you walk out of court -- that is a move I would totally pull.

In regards to the info I was asking about, I was not so much inquiring about correlation between depth and pricing but more so data tables on what depths are acceptable for carat size, table size, etc and how those may push a stone from EX to VG for example.

What spawned my question is someone was looking at a stone that was outside the typical recommended depth percentage. It was a near miss, and appropriately the OP asked the question of how much effect 0.x% really mattered. This made me start going down a rabbit hole, lol.

So basically I was being nerdy and looking for more tech data to help me further understand & analyze diamonds. I'm running out of resources. As you might have noticed, I find it fascinating how the various pieces play together and how changing one variable can or can't be overcome by adjusting another variable.

 

[WinkHPD]

Sledge, as a technicality, I walked out of a deposition, which is done in an office somewhere, not in actual courtroom. Walking out of a courtroom and a judge would have gotten me slapped with a contempt citation, and would have guaranteed missing my son's birthday party.

I got a call the next day from my side's attorney who was still laughing over Senhor Pompous' reaction the evening before. He also told me he felt his side was getting their money's worth and that both attorneys had agreed after I left that there was no need for a continued deposition.

One of the early salvos made by Mr Pompous was to ask how much time I had spent colluding with the appraiser for the opposite side as our appraisals were within 10% of each other. This was a multi piece appraisal with several unusual pieces, including one famous designer, who was the son of a famous artist.

I was pleasantly surprised that we had finished so close, although we had some pieces I thought were worth more and some that he had thought were worth more, but the totals were very close, with the claimant's net figure slightly higher than mine. I responded to the attorney that I was pleased that his appraiser had paid so much attention when I trained him many years earlier, but that I had not spoken with him for at least ten years.

I do not know how much time the other appraiser spent researching the pieces, but I had nearly two days on the phone digging into the value of some of the pieces, especially that from the famous designer. It would be quicker today, since the internet enables me to find things almost instantly, rather than working from photos and descriptions of the missing pieces and then having to copy some of the photos and send them to gem dealers for current pricing.

The upside to having the opposing appraiser be so close to my figures, is that both sides stipulated to the value of the items, splitting the difference, so I did not have to appear in court, which I have always found not to be fun at all.

Still not what you are looking for, but a great trip down memory lane for me. I thank you for the nudge that brought those memories percolating to the top of my cluttered brain.

RE:

In regards to the info I was asking about, I was not so much inquiring about correlation between depth and pricing but more so data tables on what depths are acceptable for carat size, table size, etc and how those may push a stone from EX to VG for example.

I do not believe such charts exist. With AGS for sure. A Platinum Quality light Performance Diamond Quality Document uses a scientifically vetted cut-grading system, based on optical physics and the American Gem Society’s proprietary ray-tracing software. This actually allows two diamonds with identical measurements to receive a different cut grade, as the precision cutting of one may fall within a higher cut grade than the sloppy cutting of another. Thus such a chart would not be accurate on those borderline stones.

What spawned my question is someone was looking at a stone that was outside the typical recommended depth percentage. It was a near miss, and appropriately the OP asked the question of how much effect 0.x% really mattered. This made me start going down a rabbit hole, lol.

A dangerous trip for sure. The eyes of the individual will have to answer that question, not a chart. Sadly, the visual palate of the beginning diamond buyer will not be well trained, and what is acceptable in the beginning may not be acceptable after a year or two of looking. Conversely, the visual palate might never be developed to the point where it mattered. These things can not be on a chart.

Thank you for the interesting conversation, I know this answer is way too long and most will not read it, but I am enjoying the conversation immensely.

Wink