More Than 200 Boys in Catholic Church Choir Abused

[AGBF]

More than 200 choir boys were abused in Germany. It alleges that they were tortured, beaten, and sexually abused. The article is on the front page of, "The New York Times" and says that a lawyer investigating the abuse said that he "assumes" that the brother of Pope Benedict XVI, Father Georg Ratzinger, who conducted the choir from 1964 to 1994 and sat on a supervisory board overlooking the choir, must have known of it.

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/09/world/europe/over-200-members-of-german-choir-were-abused-investigator-says.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[Gypsy]

More than 200 choir boys were abused in Germany. It alleges that they were tortured, beaten, and sexually abused. The article is on the front page of, "The New York Times" and says that a lawyer investigating the abuse said that he "assumes" that the brother of Pope Benedict XVI, Father Georg Ratzinger, who conducted the choir from 1964 to 1994 and sat on a supervisory board overlooking the choir, must have known of it.

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/09/world/europe/over-200-members-of-german-choir-were-abused-investigator-says.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Throughout history the Catholic church has been in behind, in charge of, or complicit in so much evil that I frankly find it awe inspiring that there are any Catholics at all.

 

[kenny]

If I made either of the previous posts I would have been reported and banned by now.

 

[AGBF]

This is a front page news story and I am sticking to the facts reported. The sexual abuse of children by priests in The Roman Catholic Church is also fact and has been reported. I am not arguing doctrine or dogma. This may be politics, but it isn't religion.

AGBF

 

[missy]

Deb, thank you for sharing. Shocking just shocking and Gypsy I agree. Unbelievable that it is still so strong in America. Hard to fathom. Internal inconsistencies, the celibacy requirement of priest and nuns, all the abuse etc, etc, etc, yet shockingly the Catholic church still continues and it is still strong. From a rational POV there are things about it that defy rational explanation. Culture, tradition and a sense of community can be hard to overcome. I think that is why my MIL is still such a staunch believer in the Catholic Church. She is such an intelligent woman in so many other ways.

 

[ksinger]

And in keeping with my egghead tendencies, , I will post a link to a review of a book that I have read, and own...in hardback. (shameful, I know)

It is a scholarly work by Jo Renee Formicola, entitled "Clerical Sexual Abuse: How the Crisis Changed US Catholic Church-State Relations", and is about clerical sexual abuse in the US, and how the responses of the Catholic church cost them dearly in both public credibility, and in a fall from a position of privilege in the American legal system.

http://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/2015/01/25/madison-author-bankruptcy-within-catholic-church-changed-everything/22212891/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

 

[maccers]

Heartbreaking what those children must have gone through. Such an abuse of power, it's disgusting, disturbing and enraging. I just don't have the words to describe what I feel. And then to know that there are thousands and thousands more cases like this one...it can test one's faith in humanity.

 

[hay joe]

I am a Catholic.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I am a Catholic.

 

[purplesparklies]

Faith is a hard thing to overcome and is incomprehensible to those who exist without it. I recognize that evil lurks everywhere and hides amongst all faiths and walks of life. I recognize that not everyone who claims to be of any faith truly believes and lives accordingly. Examples of this are all around us but the Catholic Church seems to be the favorite target of many.

Yes, there is a history of abuse. The behavior of those who perpetrated abuse and those who condoned it or turned a blind eye is revolting and inexcusable. It is horrible and disgusting and I know no true Catholics who support it in any way. It isn't popular to post about the vast and focused efforts of the Catholic Church to enact specific safety measures to ensure that nothing like this happens ever again but the reality is that the Church makes a very concerted effort to educate anyone who comes into contact with children associated with the Church in any way to go through training in how to recognize signs of potential abuse and exactly how to go about reporting it to the proper legal authorities. I have personally had to be trained at two different Diocese before volunteering and teaching at Catholic Schools. This all in addition to the background checks required for state teacher licensing.

I give credit to all the Catholics who recognize that there were immense problems and who work to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. I give credit to the Church for the current focus on safety and wellness for all. I support the Catholic Church and all those who work quietly and tirelessly to better the lives of those less fortunate through the many Catholic funded charities. I give of finances and time to support the many good works of the Catholic Church and I see the lives changed for the better. I am proud to be a Catholic.

 

[AGBF]

I am a Catholic.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I am a Catholic.

I do not take God's name in vain. I respect Catholicism. My brother has raised his children in the Catholic Church; therefore my nieces, whom I love more than anyone in my immediate family and whom I respect more than you know as intelligent and hardworking women, are Catholics.

To me, this is not about the faith. Certainly it is not about God. This is about an incident that occurred within the framework of the Church. And it is a true story. Moreover, the present pope has wanted these abuses to see the light of day.

Deb/AGBF

 

[maccers]

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I'm not sure what this means in the context of this thread. Can someone explain? I'm not trolling/flaming etc. I'm not religious and I don't understand what it implies/suggests.

 

[AGBF]

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I'm not sure what this means in the context of this thread. Can someone explain? I'm not trolling/flaming etc. I'm not religious and I don't understand what it implies/suggests.

kenny has gotten annoyed at me when I attempted to "read someone's mind", so I perhaps I should just wait and let Joe explain himself. What I understood and was responding to, however, was Joe feeling that his beliefs, including his belief in the Lord, were being treated with disrespect in this thread, that others were demeaning his Church.


Deb/AGBF

 

[jordyonbass]

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I'm not sure what this means in the context of this thread. Can someone explain? I'm not trolling/flaming etc. I'm not religious and I don't understand what it implies/suggests.

You're not the only one, I'm a little befuddled by it as well

 

[redwood66]

This is absolutely disgusting and abhorrent.

 

[missy]

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

I'm not sure what this means in the context of this thread. Can someone explain? I'm not trolling/flaming etc. I'm not religious and I don't understand what it implies/suggests.

kenny has gotten annoyed at me when I attempted to "read someone's mind", so I perhaps I should just wait and let Joe explain himself. What I understood and was responding to, however, was Joe feeling that his beliefs, including his belief in the Lord, were being treated with disrespect in this thread, that others were demeaning his Church.


Deb/AGBF

Deb, this might be indeed what Joe meant however I don't see disrespect here at all. It is the truth. The Catholic Church has done much damage to their reputation all by themselves. What has occurred for so long is truly egregious. And indefensible. IMO.

Of course that is not to say most Catholics are not lovely upstanding good people. However that is not what we are talking about here. We are discussing what has gone on in the Church for so long and how so many influential people high up in the Church covered it up and let it continue.

 

[ksinger]

Faith is a hard thing to overcome and is incomprehensible to those who exist without it. I recognize that evil lurks everywhere and hides amongst all faiths and walks of life. I recognize that not everyone who claims to be of any faith truly believes and lives accordingly. Examples of this are all around us but the Catholic Church seems to be the favorite target of many.

Yes, there is a history of abuse. The behavior of those who perpetrated abuse and those who condoned it or turned a blind eye is revolting and inexcusable. It is horrible and disgusting and I know no true Catholics who support it in any way. It isn't popular to post about the vast and focused efforts of the Catholic Church to enact specific safety measures to ensure that nothing like this happens ever again but the reality is that the Church makes a very concerted effort to educate anyone who comes into contact with children associated with the Church in any way to go through training in how to recognize signs of potential abuse and exactly how to go about reporting it to the proper legal authorities. I have personally had to be trained at two different Diocese before volunteering and teaching at Catholic Schools. This all in addition to the background checks required for state teacher licensing.

I give credit to all the Catholics who recognize that there were immense problems and who work to make sure nothing like this ever happens again. I give credit to the Church for the current focus on safety and wellness for all. I support the Catholic Church and all those who work quietly and tirelessly to better the lives of those less fortunate through the many Catholic funded charities. I give of finances and time to support the many good works of the Catholic Church and I see the lives changed for the better. I am proud to be a Catholic.

If you want specifics about what was done from about 1984 onward, I suggest the book I linked. The author, Formicola, is a political scientist and Catholic, researching where church and state intersect. Basically, if not for some committed individual Catholics - several of whom either left the priesthood, and/or lost their faith in the battle, the Church would not be doing as you say. The bottom line of her book, is the reason the Church's efforts are vast, focused and concerted today, is because they resisted openness and admitting fault for too long - with the resistance, and thus the downstream marching orders - coming from the very highest levels in Rome, resulting in lawyers on the civil side, taking the gloves off in disgust and pretty effectively eviscerating the deference that ecclesiastical law had enjoyed for so long in American law. The church lost in case after case. You get the impression from Formicola's book, that canon lawyers just really couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that they'd lost what they never really had any right to in the first place. But it's now accomplished for the most part: canon law pretty much has to take a back seat now to American law. And they did it to themselves.

So yes, most individual Catholics are good and committed, but the current environment where those moral people can make a difference within the Church setting, in reporting or stopping sexual abuse of children, was resisted quite strenuously by the Catholic hierarchy at almost every point along the path.

 

[purplesparklies]

So yes, most individual Catholics are good and committed, but the current environment where those moral people can make a difference within the Church setting, in reporting or stopping sexual abuse of children, was resisted quite strenuously by the Catholic hierarchy at almost every point along the path.

ksinger, I have not read that book specifically but I have read quite a bit on the subject and understand that there was resistance from very high levels. There is no debate on that. I went through a period when I considered stepping away from the Church. I was disappointed and disillusioned. I cannot excuse the crimes committed by those who participated in the acts or the cover ups. I chose to remain steadfast and active in my faith because my research also enlightened me about the changes that were brought about as a result of those brave souls who endured and stepped forward to shine light on the evil that lurked within the walls of the Church. The changes were absolutely necessary and I believe, based on my very active participation in many areas of goings on in the Catholic churches, schools and charities in my current and previous locations, these changes are embraced and supported at all levels.

I choose to focus on the present and move forward in light and hope. I choose to participate in the good of the Church and refuse to judge an entire religion on the crimes perpetrated by a few and absolutely abhorred by the majority. Before anyone focuses on my word choice of "few" in my previous statement, I realize the number was way too high but also recognize that the number of guilty parties was few when one considers the number of Catholic priests in the world. Some did wrong, the vast majority did not and that majority have made the changes necessary to shine light on the dark corners where evil tries to hide. I believe that the good far outweighs the bad.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

In a similar issue, have you guys watched "Spotlight"? I cannot remember another movie I watched where everyone walked out of the theater silent. It was shocking and disturbing. As a person who works in social services I find the whole issue completely heartbreaking. I see the cover-up as political not religious. It is time it ends. This is an issue that NEEDS to be discussed. All organizations/institutions who serve children should have total transparency.

 

[packrat]

I've not heard of Spotlight.

 

[ksinger]

In a similar issue, have you guys watched "Spotlight"? I cannot remember another movie I watched where everyone walked out of the theater silent. It was shocking and disturbing. As a person who works in social services I find the whole issue completely heartbreaking. I see the cover-up as political not religious. It is time it ends. This is an issue that NEEDS to be discussed. All organizations/institutions who serve children should have total transparency.

Whoa. The trailer looks amazing. But it could be about anything with a cast with that many heavy hitters. Wow. That is high on my list for sure. I was glued to The Boston Globe site back in the day. It'll be fascinating to see even a dramatization of the events leading up to that excellent coverage.

So, watch that AND watch "Secrets of The Vatican". Last I checked it was on Netflix, but if it no longer is, you can see it online on the PBS Frontline site. It's brilliant.

 

[hay joe]

"I am a Catholic." means that is the first thing I am.

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain". I was taught and believe that The Lord's name shall be used in a respectful and truthful manner. That means (in this case) if you claim to be a man of God you must conduct yourself as such, if not The LORD will hold you accountable for your actions. (and so should man)

"I am a Catholic." means I will always be a Catholic.

My comments were not directed toward other people who had posted here. My comments were directed toward the accused. If anyone is suggesting that I feel that a molester should be protected for any reason then they don't know me at all. Nor do I feel the need to study to attack any religion or atheists.

I have a bad case of faith.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

In a similar issue, have you guys watched "Spotlight"? I cannot remember another movie I watched where everyone walked out of the theater silent. It was shocking and disturbing. As a person who works in social services I find the whole issue completely heartbreaking. I see the cover-up as political not religious. It is time it ends. This is an issue that NEEDS to be discussed. All organizations/institutions who serve children should have total transparency.

Whoa. The trailer looks amazing. But it could be about anything with a cast with that many heavy hitters. Wow. That is high on my list for sure. I was glued to The Boston Globe site back in the day. It'll be fascinating to see even a dramatization of the events leading up to that excellent coverage.

So, watch that AND watch "Secrets of The Vatican". Last I checked it was on Netflix, but if it no longer is, you can see it online on the PBS Frontline site. It's brilliant.

It was a good movie but depressing for sure. I did not follow the original coverage but assume they stayed true to the facts. Awareness is the first step to advocacy.

 

[monarch64]

This is how wars start. Totally cool, guys!

 

[AGBF]

This is how wars start. Totally cool, guys!

I'm sorry, Monnie, but I don't understand you this time. When you say, "this", to what are you referring?

Deb

 

[monarch64]

This is how wars start. Totally cool, guys!

I'm sorry, Monnie, but I don't understand you this time. When you say, "this", to what are you referring?

Deb

Sorry, Deb. With all due respect, I was making light of the interactions about religion in this thread. I find it really unfortunate that some cannot seem to carry on discussion without bringing their brand into it. Nothing against anyone personally, but seriously? Have we not ALL read the TOS here? If I want to see debates about issues and religion I'll just read my Facebook newsfeed.

I apologize to anyone my words might or have offended. PS just should not be a place to argue about religion. That's all.

 

[purplesparklies]

^^^ Ah, but without the posts aimed at bashing Catholics and the posts aimed at bashing those who are considered to be "pro gun" there would be no dead horses to beat. Some seemingly never tire of the opportunity to stand atop their soapbox.

 

[AGBF]

^^^ Ah, but without the posts aimed at bashing Catholics and the posts aimed at bashing those who are considered to be "pro gun" there would be no dead horses to beat. Some seemingly never tire of the opportunity to stand atop their soapbox.

You appear to be alleging that only rabble rousers and troublemakers discuss child abuse and gun control.

 

[Ellen]

I totally agree with Gypsy's statement also. I have done much investigating into the Catholic church, and had I known an inkling of what I know now many years ago, I never would have agreed with my Catholic husband to be to raise our future children Catholic. No worries though, none of them, including hubby go to church nor believe it's doctrines.

But in all fairness, evil and perversion are equal opportunity offenders, and pedophilia can be found to some degree in just about any religion/denomination. And, it doesn't stop there. The following link is to the documenting of a credit union scandal that turned up WAY more than missing money.

"The shut-down of Omaha, Nebraska's Franklin Community Federal Credit Union, raided by federal agencies in November 1988, sent shock waves all the way to Washington, D.C. $40 million was missing. The credit union's manager: Republican Party activist Lawrence E. "Larry" King, Jr., behind whose rise to fame and riches stood powerful figures in Nebraska politics and business, and in the nation's capital.

In the face of opposition from local and state law enforcement, from the FBI, and from the powerful Omaha World-Herald newspaper, a special Franklin committee of the Nebraska Legislature launched its own probe. What looked like a financial swindle, soon exploded into a hideous tale of drugs, Iran-Contra money-laundering, a nationwide child abuse ring, and ritual murder."

http://www.amazon.com/The-Franklin-Cover-up-Satanism-Nebraska/dp/0963215809

This is real people, not made up, not speculation. Fact. And ugly. I won't even read the book, I don't want all that vile garbage seared into my brain. Just reading the comments (and please, at least read the comments) of those who did, and hearing excerpts from interviews, and watching the documentary, Conspiracy of Silence that never aired on the Discovery channel like it was supposed to is more than enough. It will explain why laws don't get passed that should, and vice versa. Why the elite get away with stuff they shouldn't. (Why priests get away with things they shouldn't) Why people get elected that make you ask, why? Why "real" average intelligent people never make it to the oval office. Because that oval office has "these" people in it. These kids name names, and daddy Bush is one of them... Now, have any of you ever heard of this before now? If you answer no, ask yourself why not.....

And as an exclamation point on that read, look to the book, Why Johnny Can't Come Home, written by Johnny's mother Noreen Gosch. This will put the final explanation on why such an insane number of kids go missing every year. :/

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Johnny-Cant-Come-Home/dp/0970519508

I didn't read the book, but listened to a 2 hour interview with her on this. Un. Believable. The amount of corruption going on will blow your mind. Truly. This is everywhere. And it's not getting better, it's not going away. It will continue, and continue to get worse. Because the ones who should be looking out for the kids, the ones who should be catching the "bad guys" and putting them away, ARE the bad guys.


purplesparklies, you said" I realize the number was way too high but also recognize that the number of guilty parties was few when one considers the number of Catholic priests in the world. "

That "few" you speak relatively of? I would wager a whole lot of my money, maybe even my last dime, to venture a guess that that number is a WHOLE lot bigger, we just don't hear about it. Because they either don't get caught, or, they get moved somewhere else to get them out of the spotlight. It goes on all the time. Heck, one of our local parishes had a priest who was supposed to be living in quarters in the rectory of the church. Come to find out, he had a house in another town with a lady (thankfully) on the side. His punishment? Sent back to the country he came from to live out his career. It goes on all the time, we just aren't aware.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

^^^ Ah, but without the posts aimed at bashing Catholics and the posts aimed at bashing those who are considered to be "pro gun" there would be no dead horses to beat. Some seemingly never tire of the opportunity to stand atop their soapbox.

You appear to be alleging that only rabble rousers and troublemakers discuss child abuse and gun control.

I agree with Deb. I am anti-child abuse not anti-Catholic. I also appreciate I only need to participate in threads that interest me. If I am insulted or bored, I just don't click on the thread. Free will is a beautiful thing.

ETA: I am also anti cover-ups and anti abuse of power. It isn't about a specific religion. This is about a well documented, frequent cycle of sexual abuse (to girls and boys) and systematic cover-ups and protection of rapists.

 

[AGBF]

^^^ Ah, but without the posts aimed at bashing Catholics and the posts aimed at bashing those who are considered to be "pro gun" there would be no dead horses to beat. Some seemingly never tire of the opportunity to stand atop their soapbox.

You appear to be alleging that only rabble rousers and troublemakers discuss child abuse and gun control.

I agree. I am anti-child abuse not anti-Catholic. I also appreciate I only need to participate in threads that interest me. If I am insulted or bored, I just don't click on the thread. Free will is a beautiful thing.

I will reiterate here that I am anti-child abuse, but not anti-Catholic. I did not start this thread to criticize Catholicism. I did not start it to discuss religion. I started it to discuss an issue that was front page news.

AGBF