shape
carat
color
clarity

Military Records: Bush and Kerry

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,146
Some newspapers have been throwing around allegations that George W. Bush went AWOL (away without leave) during his service in the National Guard. I do not know how responsible those allegations are. This article in "The New York Times" compares and contrasts the military records of Mr. Kerry and Mr. Bush. (One's view of performing military service during the Vietnam War will, no doubt, vary with one's opinion of whether the United States was doing anything helpful in Vietnam.)


February 4, 2004
POLITICAL MEMO
Military Service Becomes Weapon in a Kerry-Bush Race
By ELISABETH BUMILLER and DAVID M. HALBFINGER

WASHINGTON, Feb. 3 — The contrast could not be more striking.

In March 1969, John Kerry, a 25-year-old Navy lieutenant, reached down from the boat he was piloting in Vietnam's treacherous Bay Hap River and in a spray of enemy fire pulled a soldier out of the water to safety. For his valor, Mr. Kerry won the Bronze Star with a combat "V" and his third Purple Heart.

That very same month, George W. Bush was on far-safer ground in Valdosta, Ga., learning to fly fighter planes for the Texas National Guard, a coveted post that greatly reduced any risk that he would be sent to Vietnam — and one that he might not have obtained had his father not been a member of Congress.

Mr. Bush went on to miss a number of National Guard training sessions, although his spokesmen say he made up the dates and his records show he was honorably discharged.

Now, three decades later, the contrast between the military service of Mr. Kerry and Mr. Bush has exploded into a campaign issue.

Democrats, who this week accused Mr. Bush of being "AWOL" from the National Guard, are using it as a weapon to undermine Mr. Bush's greatest electoral strength, his record on national security after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Republicans roared back on Tuesday, accusing Mr. Kerry of "smear tactics" for saying the president should answer questions about his service record. Taking the rare step of angrily rebutting the charges directly from the White House, the Republicans are trying to turn the issue back on Mr. Kerry and question the character of a man who they say is running a vicious campaign. But they are concerned enough about the political impact of the charges to consider sending Mr. Bush out to begin his official campaigning early, rather than waiting until spring as previously planned.

"Obviously we're in a period where the Democrats have been center stage politically and they've said a lot of tough things about the president," said one Bush campaign official, who was reacting in part to a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released on Tuesday showing Mr. Kerry leading Mr. Bush by 53 percent to 46 percent among likely voters. "But it won't be too long now before there are two candidates in the race."

Although Democrats are not unified in the view that the strategy will work, Mr. Kerry's campaign advisers say the dispute, and the intense Republican response, keeps Mr. Kerry's military record as a central focus of the campaign and allows him to show he can engage in the same kind of brutal political warfare as the Bush White House.

In that sense, Democrats called the attack on Mr. Bush a loud warning shot aimed directly at Karl Rove, Mr. Bush's chief political adviser. Terry McAuliffe, the chairman of Democratic National Committee, led the way on Sunday when he called Mr. Bush AWOL, a charge that Mr. Kerry has not made himself, but also not disavowed.

"The Republican attack machine that's gone nuts today is going to discover that John Kerry is pretty tough," said Bob Shrum, Mr. Kerry's senior adviser, in an interview on Tuesday. "He's going to fight back on national security and the issues that he himself brings to the table."

Republicans countered that the Democrats and Mr. Kerry had gone overboard, that the strategy would backfire and that the charges were old. Questions about Mr. Bush's National Guard service first surfaced during the 2000 campaign when he ran against Al Gore, who served in Vietnam. The issue was revived last month when the filmmaker Michael Moore called Mr. Bush a deserter at a rally for Gen. Wesley K. Clark.

"I think it's a little over the top," said former Senator Bob Dole, who was seriously wounded in World War II but did not make his military record an issue in his 1996 campaign against the incumbent Bill Clinton, who avoided serving in Vietnam. "You have to walk that fine line that you're not exploiting it."

Other Republicans said that voters would not judge the candidates on their military service but on how they best presented themselves as a potential commander in chief charged with protecting the security of the United States. In that regard, Republicans said, Mr. Bush had the overwhelming advantage.

"You've got Bush who's already commander in chief, and has deployed military forces in a successful way, and has proven what he's willing to do," said Bill Dal Col, a Republican political consultant. "And you've got somebody who was in the military 30 years ago, different time, different era. What he did in Vietnam does not play out to what he has to do on the world stage now."

Some Democrats agreed. "This election is not going to be about the military, or the lack of military record of the president, but his performance in handling Iraq and leading the country in a time of uncertainty," said Peter Hart, a Democratic pollster, who is not working for a presidential candidate.

But Mr. Kerry is showing no signs so far of backing off. In recent days, he has been assisted by former Senator Max Cleland of Georgia, a triple-amputee from his service in Vietnam who has been virtually sainted in Democratic eyes after being defeated in 2002 when Republicans questioned his patriotism.

"We need a real deal, like John Kerry, not a raw deal, like what's in the White House now," Mr. Cleland said on Friday in Columbia, S.C., with Mr. Kerry at his side. "We need somebody who felt the sting of battle, not someone who didn't even complete his tour stateside in the Guard."

The White House went into a furious counterattack on Tuesday. "It is outrageous and baseless," Scott McClellan, Mr. Bush's press secretary, told reporters, breaking the White House practice that all political questions be answered by officials at Bush-Cheney campaign headquarters in Arlington, Va.

Ralph Reed, the Bush campaign's Southeast regional chairman, went even further. "It's gutter politics," Mr. Reed said in an interview. "We're absolutely convinced that the American people will reject these smear tactics."

Late Tuesday night, Mr. Kerry fired back. On Fox News, he subtly slashed at Mr. Bush by implying that joining the National Guard was just another way of dodging the draft.

"I've never made any judgments about any choice somebody made about avoiding the draft, about going to Canada, going to jail, being a conscientious objector, going into the National Guard," Mr. Kerry said. "Those are choices people make."

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | Help |
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
I think that before the Republicans fly too far off the handle on this issue, they might want to review Colin Powell's autobiography, wherein, at the end of his stories about serving in Vietnam, he says the very same things about those who used their political connections to get into the NG and avoid service in SE Asia--though he says it in much stronger language. I believe what he said, among other things, was that he "can never forgive" those who used their privilege and connections to duck service while those from mundane backgrounds served and died.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441
Found it--this is what Powell says:




I particularly condemn the way our political leaders supplied the manpower for that war. The policies--determining who would be drafted and who would be deferred, who would serve and who would escape, who would die and who would live--were an antidemocratic disgrace. I can never forgive a leadership that said, in effect: These young men--poorer, less educated, less privileged--are expendable (someone described them as "economic cannon fodder"), but the rest are too good to risk. I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well placed ... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country.



Ouch. /idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,146
Thank you for posting that, LawGem. I would never have seen it myself since I rarely read autobiographies and memoirs. From the point of view of a military man, like Mr. Powell, the assumption is that all should have equal responsibility to serve. In my opinion, that is undeniable...if there is to be war. As someone who thought that the United States was doing dreadful harm in Vietnam, I would say that the larger problem was why we were in that war at all, losing any of our precious young men and killing anyone in Vietnam.
 

winyan

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 9, 2003
Messages
1,163
Having had a dear friend from Tx, who had both social and business dealings w/ the Bush family, the story of the AWOL period is true...before that his big contribution to national defense was flying trees from Lousiana to TX. THEN he was AWOL for 14 months, which was carefully edited from a certain service record.




I know more, but a public forum isn't the place for it.




win
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,146
----------------
On 2/6/2004 3:40:31 PM winyan wrote:



I know more, but a public forum isn't the place for it.


win
----------------


So true! The place for it is e-mail. You *DO*, still, have my e-mail address, don't you win? If not, I will send it forthwith!!!

Deb ;-)
 

winyan

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
May 9, 2003
Messages
1,163
I do indeed, Deb...it was just my puter was so sick for so long, and I didn't want to infect anyone else.

It's all fixed up now, though (finally!!) deep sigh of relief!

win
 

chris-uk04

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2003
Messages
273
Geez,

Both parties are so bad with their opponent’s military service records.

When Clinton was running, both times, the Republicans screamed that he was a lousy draft dodger. Democrats defended him and avoided a straight answer.

Now that Kerry will probably face Bush, the Democrats are screaming about Bush’s less than stellar record. The Republicans are defending him and avoiding a straight answer.

I think the Democrats should remember all the forgiveness they gave Clinton about military service before they start attacking Bush….and the Republicans should remember all the crap they gave Clinton before making so many excuses for Bush.

However, this is politics, most people’s memories are short, and no one ever does what “they should do.”
 

rodentman

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 5, 2001
Messages
461
>>I know more, but a public forum isn't the place for it.

win<<

I can't speak to what you know, but believe it or not I DO agree that you should take it to email.

I firmly believe that political, religious, and other topical issues like gay marriage are best discussed on forums which focus on such matters. If you want lively debate, best take it there. If you just want a megaphone, take it to emails.

I admit it's a tough call for the forum mgt, where to draw the line--business only, nothing ever OT....or free for all. Well, you know where that goes....

Let's help keep the leeway we have by not abusing it and being provocative. Your tagline ought to go away as well, but that's up to Leonid. I won't debate it with you, and I won't be baited.

IMHO this entire thread should never have been started; it doesn't belong on PS and should have been canned.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441


----------------
On 2/13/2004 5:33:14 PM rodentman wrote:





IMHO this entire thread should never have been started; it doesn't belong on PS and should have been canned.

----------------

It was started before Leonid condensed all the OT forums and asked that we focus on diamond and gemstone issues. But he hasn't had to exercise much control over these sorts of threads because, unlike other places, we have been able to discuss them in a calm and rational manner. No harm, no foul.

9.gif



There isn't much political discussion here; I think if you review the threads, it's a grand total of about 10 PS members.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top