Maybe the wait is because I'm from a different religion?

[inflorescence]

I have been surfing the internet a lot between my course readings and I can't help but think that he will never propose. I think I need to be well into the conversion process. I have heard stories from a few girls I know (who are non Jewish) They have been in very serious relationships with Jewish men, who end up getting their heart broken abruptly after 2-5 years of dating and then the man gets engaged to a nice Jewish girl months later.

The bf was raised as a conservative Jew and even though he said me not being Jewish doesn't matter, and that he is not religious... his mom has made it clear very early on if we were to get married I would have to be Jewish.(The children would only be Jewish if the mother is Jewish) I was raised catholic, but to not believe in the faith at all, in fact most of it I disagree a lot with. I do believe a lot of the Jewish faith, especially community, education, history and family... but converting is a BIG decision, I do agree with a lot of their core beliefs, but I do have a science mind and don't really believe in all that faith crap. The Jewish community is very supportive of each other and really push Jewish people to marry other Jewish people. I will always be an outsider unless I convert (as sad as it sounds) Their friends, country club etc. are all Jewish. I usually get the question if I am Jewish instantly when I meet someone new... awkward. I feel it's more then just a religion, it's thousands of years of history of trying to survive and having to stick together, there aren't that many and the don't want to lose one to a non-Jew to make their descendents non-Jewish. I know this sounds stupid, but sadly in most places it's the reality. There are the odd exceptions, but I am still to meet a non-Jewish girl in this community who is married to a Jewish man. I'm the exception. (And I think it's because they think I'm going to convert, I may have casually mentioned that I was interested... and have gone to synagogue with them a few times on the high holidays-NOT a clue what was being said, the whole time people were talking, plus I don't understand much Hebrew).


Thanks for listening

 

[rubybeth]

This is a great place to vent, but I'm not sure anyone here can answer your question. Maybe the wait *is* because you're from a different religion, but only your SO can answer that.

I don't know how long you've been dating, but if it's been a while and you've talked vaguely about the future and getting married, it might be time to talk more seriously and let your thoughts/feelings be known. Tell him you feel like an outsider, and that you aren't a religious person and don't plan to convert (unless you *would* convert for him, but I think that's a poor reason to become Jewish--it takes a lot of study and commitment, and who knows, he may still break up with you, so it would have to be something YOU really want to do). You need to talk about having children and how they wouldn't be Jewish in the eyes of his family/community. He really does need to be okay with all of this, even as a non-religious Jew. And you need to feel accepted by his family, even if you aren't religious.

 

[chemgirl]

I have been surfing the internet a lot between my course readings and I can't help but think that he will never propose. I think I need to be well into the conversion process. I have heard stories from a few girls I know (who are non Jewish) They have been in very serious relationships with Jewish men, who end up getting their heart broken abruptly after 2-5 years of dating and then the man gets engaged to a nice Jewish girl months later.

The bf was raised as a conservative Jew and even though he said me not being Jewish doesn't matter, and that he is not religious... his mom has made it clear very early on if we were to get married I would have to be Jewish.(The children would only be Jewish if the mother is Jewish) I was raised catholic, but to not believe in the faith at all, in fact most of it I disagree a lot with. I do believe a lot of the Jewish faith, especially community, education, history and family... but converting is a BIG decision, I do agree with a lot of their core beliefs, but I do have a science mind and don't really believe in all that faith crap. The Jewish community is very supportive of each other and really push Jewish people to marry other Jewish people. I will always be an outsider unless I convert (as sad as it sounds) Their friends, country club etc. are all Jewish. I usually get the question if I am Jewish instantly when I meet someone new... awkward. I feel it's more then just a religion, it's thousands of years of history of trying to survive and having to stick together, there aren't that many and the don't want to lose one to a non-Jew to make their descendents non-Jewish. I know this sounds stupid, but sadly in most places it's the reality. There are the odd exceptions, but I am still to meet a non-Jewish girl in this community who is married to a Jewish man. I'm the exception. (And I think it's because they think I'm going to convert, I may have casually mentioned that I was interested... and have gone to synagogue with them a few times on the high holidays-NOT a clue what was being said, the whole time people were talking, plus I don't understand much Hebrew).


Thanks for listening

Yeah, I'm in that group. I was in the process of converting but his family made it clear that it didn't matter because I wasn't born Jewish. I was called names and lectured by random people at parties for destroying generations of history. I went to Schule a few times and it was terribly awkward because I had no clue what was going on and nobody explained it to me. It was a very frustrating and painful process.

I hope it works out for you! You are an intelligent woman and his family would be lucky to have you!

ETA: This is the same ex who used to judge me for my grades and evaluate my wife potential. I think you mentioned your BF commenting on your grade on a test. If I didn't know that my ex found his wife on J-date a few weeks after we broke up I'd think it was the same guy!

 

[Amys Bling]

Hmm, I would be very concerned that in the end- his famuky's opinion and his faith will win out. How long have you been together?

 

[madelise]

I would NEVER convert religions for a man. EVER. It's a huge red flag to me if you can't be YOU and still be accepted. Maybe I'm bullheaded, but I'd tell them to stick it if they ver made comments about my beliefs and values and ethnic/history. If a man made me convert to make his community happy, I'd tell HIM to marry THEM. I'm an OPEN, and accepting of all people. And I expect everyone around me to be the same. To accept others regardless of skin color or personal beliefs, be it political or religious. If you convert to feel accepted, I'm afraid you're just opening yourself up to getting stepped on MORE. And your FMIL mentioning your unborn children not beig accepted? The unborn child, which isn't even CONCIEVED yet, should be loved by all those aroun them, including a paternal grandmother, regardless of ethnic background or religion! Heck, you need to speak up for your ovaries' rights! Those unborn kids should be able to believe whatever the heck they want!

Sorry, this topic hits a sore spot for me. I chose to stand up for my nonreligiousness than to "convert" for my SO. My SO isn't even religious! But his parents have a ridiculous idea that "godless" people are moraless. Which is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've known plenty of religious people who apparently don't even know what morals ARE. And they weren't even trying to change my beliefs, just that I'd attend temple with them, and be "socially" their religion. BF mentioned if I can muster up the strength to fake it, they'd pay for my university expenses, which Im currently and have been struggling with, just bc my future is also their son's future. FECK that! I'll pay for my own UNI just to stand my own ground!

If youre nervous abt your SO and HIS beliefs, and you fear him leaving bc of it, TALK to him. I've had that convo with mine. Just do it. You'll either settle your nerves and realize this is ridiculous, or you'll find out this is also HIS outlook, in which you need to make a very serious decision. But please think it through a million times over.

 

[sonnyjane]

Ehh. Sorry to be pessimistic but I agree with some of these posters that love doesn't always conquer all. I am friends with quite a few people that either are Jewish or that have dated people that were Jewish. My friends that are Jewish always, ALWAYS (I want to emphasize this because there was NEVER an exception), would end the relationship after about six months or so. Basically they would date people casually but once it came time to meet families, things would always fall apart. The friends that dated Jewish people again, ALWAYS, ended up dating just casually, but when it got serious, the relationship was broken off, either by them or by the other person. The consensus was always "hey, it's okay to date someone casually of a different faith, but when it comes time to get married and raise a family, my parents and I will only settle for someone that is Jewish". You are correct, it is not just a religion, like "oh, I'm Baptist and you're Methodist", there is a LOT of tradition within the Jewish community and once things start getting serious, things have always fallen apart for my friends. I always asked of them "why would you even start dating someone then if you knew they weren't Jewish?" and they never had a good answer for me...

ETA: Okay, that was a little negative lol. I won't say it CAN'T happen, just that you have a very valid concern that it may be a huge issue. As the others have mentioned, the only one that can assuage your fears is your SO. Talk to him openly.

 

[yennyfire]

I am Jewish and have been on both sides of this issue. I got married at 22 to the son of a born again, Baptist who's father had been a wizard in the KKK. We dated all through college and I spent many holidays (including Christmas) with them. My then bf spent time in synagogue with my family. We had agreed to raise our kids with both religions and my parents were "tolerating" it b/c, as you said, since I'm Jewish, my children would be Jewish.

So, we get married and his mother starts telling me that I'm going to burn in hell and that our children won't spend eternity with me, etc. My first husband refused to stand up to her for me and the relationship quickly turned ugly. We divorced after 18 months of marriage after being together for 7 years.

You seem to understand Jewish culture really well. I wish I could tell you that most Jewish folks would disagree with some of the things you said, but if I'm being honest, I don't think they would. After my first marriage ended, I decided to date only Jewish men. Marriage is hard enough without having to integrate two cultures (as you pointed out, Judaism is as much a culture as a religion) and two religions. If you want my honest opinion, you need to sit down with your bf and be very open about your feelings and tell him that if he doesn't think that his parents will accept you and he's not willing to put you first as his wife, then you don't see the relationship succeeding. I'm not trying to be harsh, but it's much easier to end a relationship than a marriage. Sometimes it's hard to face the reality of a situation when you want something so badly. My heart aches for you, truly it does.

And, for the record, I would never want anyone to convert to any religion to placate another person and if your bf loves you, he wouldn't want you to do that either. Conversion should be about your beliefs meshing with those of the religion you plan joining.

 

[sonnyjane]

So, we get married and his mother starts telling me that I'm going to burn in hell and that our children won't spend eternity with me, etc. My first husband refused to stand up to her for me and the relationship quickly turned ugly. We divorced after 18 months of marriage after being together for 7 years.

So, so sorry yennyfire

 

[omc111]

I grew up as a Southern Baptist on the border of No. Florida and So. Georgia. My husband is Jewish and grew up in Pittsburgh PA. We've been married 35 years. My father was a bigot and my husband's mother was deathly afraid I would come into her house wearing a huge cross. Religion didn't matter to my husband or to me when we got married...but when our first child was born, that was another story. All of a sudden my husband rediscovered his Jewish roots. Pretty typical I'm guessing. Well, I'm not a believer in teaching children both religions and letting them choose and because I was not close to the Christian religion at all, I had no problem accepting Judaism. I did convert, but I will say that unless you are born Jewish, you really aren't accepted as a Jew. (and I've worked at a synagogue for 25 years.) I consider myself to be Jewish but not a Jew, if that makes any sense. Anyway, it worked for my husband and me for several reasons: my faith in my religion wasn't strong so I had no trouble letting it go, I was willing to raise our children as Jews, my husband's mother kept her mouth shut, and we live in No CA and belong to a reform synagogue where at least 30 to 40% of member families are interfaith.

There seems to be a reverse discrimination among Jews based, I think, in a fear of either diluting or loosing both their culture and religion. As people have said here, it depends on your boyfriend's feelings about Judaism--how important it is in his life and how you feel about that. His parents should keep out of it and if things work out between you two, he needs to tell them this. But one thing's for sure, work all this out, including how you will raise your children, before you get married.

For me, living in a Jewish community has been wonderful and I have absolutely no regrets, except that my daughter lives in Israel and I miss her!!

 

[inflorescence]

we've been together for 2.5 years

 

[RebeccaMUA]

Wow I didn't want to come in and be a "debbie downer" over here, but I completely agree with what everyone else has posted thus far. I myself am Catholic, but I've known quite a few Jewish people since I was quite young and there is definitely more to it than just the religion part of it. It's the importance of being one of the Chosen People who feel they were chosen to make it known that there is one God of the world. A people who have attempted to maintain their faith, culture and sense of community over centuries of displacement and ridicule. That's what I think is the hardest part of a person who goes through conversion because it's like the person is thought of not being "really" Jewish because they didn't come from a line of people who have ancestors that know the suffering of their people and what it is to BE Jewish.

I've only known one interfaith couple that makes it work because the woman is Jewish and because of that her family is fine that she is non-practicing because in their eyes the child was born of a Jewish mother and will always be Jewish and have that line because of it.

I also agree with Madelise in that I would never convert to another religion for a man, or convert to one at all if I wasn't religious because when you do that the religion is asking you to put your faith FIRST and everyone else second. Therefore you would be converting for the love of the religion itself, not because someone you love is of that faith.

I do truly feel for you as in-law relationships can be so precarious and sensitive and really put stress onto the pair of you.

My advice would be to have a serious, long discussion with your boyfriend over it. If he tried to get out of it, or "Doesn't feel like taking about it right now" then you need to let him know that not talking about it is not an option.

Best of luck to you!

 

[wakingdreams53]

Judaism is more than a religion. Especially conservatives. Had the tables been turned and you were the guy, maybe it would be better, but as in Yenny's sad tale, not necessarily.
I'm jewish, but completely and utterly non-practicing. I even went to yeshiva for a few years, did that whole thing-- hated it. I only have one cousin who went conservative, but even in my completely NOT orthodox family, you marry a jew.
My bf is NOT jewish and at a young and rebellious age I decided not to date jews. But that's a whole different different matter of social class; the whole differing religions thing is just the cherry on top.

I just remember how the more religious folk felt about converts -- not too swell.

As sweet as the whole Charlotte York and Harry Goldenblatt, that Sex and the City made seem, it's more unlikely than likely for your situation to work out well...

Sorry for the myriad of negative replies. I do hope things work out, but if you're already aware of this jewish man pattern w/ breaking non-jews hearts, you'd be better off finding someone who will want to spend the rest of his life with you irrespective of your religion and not make you even have to think about converting.

 

[swingirl]

The bf was raised as a conservative Jew and even though he said me not being Jewish doesn't matter, and that he is not religious... his mom has made it clear very early on if we were to get married I would have to be Jewish.(The children would only be Jewish if the mother is Jewish) I was raised catholic, but to not believe in the faith at all, in fact most of it I disagree a lot with.

It doesn't sound like he disagrees with his mother. If he did, he'd never have allowed her to have this conversation with you.

 

[JulieN]

I haven't had good experiences with Jewish men (4, so not an insignificant portion of my sample size) but this may have more to do with being in a large city, and men who have had very privileged upbringings (ie, spoiled) rather than a religious thing (they are all nonpracticing, nonreligious.) The behavior I've seen is more of a "sowing wild oats" kind of thing than that befitting a lasting relationship. But for the OP, I don't think a relationship of 2.5 years is a bachelor's experiment. I think you just need to talk to him about his intentions.

 

[iheartscience]

Yet another great reason for you to leave this guy. Seriously, every post you make about him reveals another awful facet of your relationship. My question is, why are you willing to wait for this guy? He criticizes and belittles you, allows his family to be rude to you to your face, and dangles your engagement like a carrot on a stick.

DTMFA. (For those who don't read Dan Savage, that's Dump The MotherF***er Already.)

 

[Amys Bling]

wishing you the best.

 

[rubybeth]

I was also going to add that there's some evidence that marriage will be easier and happier the more similar you are to your spouse. That's not to say opposites don't attract and can't be happy, but that the fewer things you disagree about on a fundamental level, the smoother sailing you'll have.

For example, DH and I are both lazy Catholics, so we don't have to agree on which church to attend, just whether to attend that week or not. And, it was easy to make his grandmother happy while also making my dad happy when we did marriage prep with the diocese and got married in the Cathedral. If we wanted children (we don't) then there would be no question that they'd be baptised and raised Catholic, maybe even go to private school. These just aren't things we'd ever disagree about or even have to discuss on more than a cursory level.

It sucks, but it seems like after 2.5 years, you should find out what his intentions are, and maybe have to let him go.

 

[inflorescence]

Huge conversations over the last few days...
He's not impressed that I have been talking online about it. (I mentioned it in conversation) He feels it is not a good sample of people that exist out there and that people are bitter or set in their opinions and that is the only reason they would post. (I don't agree, people like to share) That there are interfaith couples of jewish and nonjewish people that work out and then mentioned that we have been through alot up to this point and are not like most couples in this stage. (So don't follow whatever happened to everyone else)

Spark notes of the conversation:

Me:“Would you still want to marry me if I didn't convert?”
him:“Of course, I can't believe you ask me that... I've bought the ring and have two different ways to propose planned out..”
my mind: way to go...*insert sarcastic inner voice here*
me: “Of course I am going to ask, this is our future, I don't want to be wasting either of our times if I'm not what you're looking for. These are the topics that need to be talked about so there is no issue or surprise in the future”
him: VERY SAD.... “sorry that you think you might be wasting your time”
my mind: F! (oh great I need to open my big mouth...)
me: and I keep going...“But you want your children to be Jewish”
him: “Yes.”
me: “And they are only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish...”
him:“...yes.”
him: even more upset, “I can't believe you would give me this ultimatum”
me: “what are you talking about?!”
him: “Obviously I am madly in love with you and would marry you regardless of your religion, so even though I want our children to be Jewish, and intend to raise them as so, I'm not going to say if you don't convert that I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with you. I don't care about what my family thinks, what the community thinks, I care about you and us. That's it. The one thing I need in life more than anything is for you to be the best that you want to be, and for you to be happy. I'm happy when you're happy.”

Oh boy, I'm terrible.

 

[LJL]

Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's really given an answer to the presented problem....Seems like he is saying "Yes, you need to be Jewish for our kids to be Jewish but I won't TELL you that you need to convert"

He is definitely saying he wants to marry you but it also sounds like he is saying "we will cross that bridge when we get there" with regard to the children being Jewish. Is it willful ignorance of the future or does he really not care if you don't convert? Maybe he is okay with marrying you before you've converted by not okay with having kids with you before youve converted? Also, not sure if you have answered this yet, but are you happy with your children being raised Jewish? Not that there is anything wrong with the religion but it could result in similar situations for them in the future (to the situation you and your SO are in now) especially if they are close to his side of the family. Seems like the mother-in-law is quite adamant about the children being Jewish - would she and your SO be okay if the children didn't follow all the Jewish customs?

I feel like this is a problem that could come up over and over again throughout the years.

 

[omc111]

If you belong to a Reform synagogue and raise your children as Reform Jews, either parent can be a Jew for the children to be considered Jewish. Father or mother. Doesn't matter which as long as you raise your children as Jews and keep a Jewish home. All he has to do her is switch from Conservative to Reform. And the Reform movement is the largest in America. Before you give up on your relationship, look at this. It's a good compromise.

 

[partgypsy]

It sounds like you may be making him choose; between you and his family, religion, and community. It sounds like he will still choose you but obviously is anguished by that thought because he may be shunned because of it.

Maybe not quite the same but my mother converted to Greek Orthodox before she married my father (he's Greek). She loved my Dad and wanted to share the same religion, children brought up the same way.
But I think it is something that you have to do willingly. Maybe you are the one who needs to make a decision.

 

[inflorescence]

Honestly, it doesn't sound like he's really given an answer to the presented problem....Seems like he is saying "Yes, you need to be Jewish for our kids to be Jewish but I won't TELL you that you need to convert" You hit the nail on the head. He's too nice to tell me I need to convert.
Is it willful ignorance of the future or does he really not care if you don't convert? He is a planner, in everything in his life. He does care if I convert, but would never force me to.
Maybe he is okay with marrying you before you've converted by not okay with having kids with you before youve converted?I think so, especially after that conversation. Jewish history is important to him (and I respect that and the history)
Also, not sure if you have answered this yet, but are you happy with your children being raised Jewish? I'm not religious so I wouldn't care, but I feel that I would want to be part of their upbringing in whatever it is. It would be a part of who they are. (But I would want them to see what I experienced growing up too-My traditions make me who I am, even though I don't believe in it, it makes me sad to think it would all be tossed aside.)
mother-in-law is quite adamant about the children being Jewish OOOh yes, but surprisingly less than most. She is VERY welcoming of me considering I am not Jewish. She really loves me and welcomes me into her house. (We had to live with them for a few months in the past, so they know me well and I know them well) But she still has her beliefs that she would want me to be Jewish to have children.
would she and your SO be okay if the children didn't follow all the Jewish customs? I can honestly say no, it's not an option.
I feel like this is a problem that could come up over and over again throughout the years. That's why I have tried to talk about it in the past, but before I got the: We have a lot on our plate right now, we will talk about that when we get there. But I need to talk about it before that point where I really have no option... So no one is shocked, I figure if I continue to express my opinion and even show the classes they offer about raising Jewish children at some synagogues when the mom isn't Jewish maybe they will understand a little more.

First of all thank you for your questions. I really appreciate having this place as a vent,( soundboard etc) I am thankful for your information and stories. Sadly many people in my life are not in this position so I don't really have an outlet to just chat about it because no one understands. (No one I know is non-Jewish dating a Jewish man) Thank you to everyone, but I think I am going to be MIA from the site for awhile. **hugs**

 

[inflorescence]

If you belong to a Reform synagogue and raise your children as Reform Jews, either parent can be a Jew for the children to be considered Jewish. Father or mother. Doesn't matter which as long as you raise your children as Jews and keep a Jewish home. All he has to do her is switch from Conservative to Reform. And the Reform movement is the largest in America. Before you give up on your relationship, look at this. It's a good compromise.

Thank you, I didn't know that! His mom's sister moved to reform, so I know the family is accepting of it.

 

[LJL]

Good luck! I hope you are able to find some compromise - the Reform idea sounds good.

I hope all goes well.

 

[monarch64]

IF: I really don't have any advice to offer, but I can tell you that I am not Jewish but my husband is. I don't think he was raised conservative, but I do know that he lost half his family (his paternal grandparents) over the issue of his mother being Jewish and his father being Irish Catholic. He "doesn't have family" period, to this day, and he's 38. We met a couple years ago, and while he does observe the high holy days, he isn't what you'd think of as a practicing Jew. We are expecting our first child and he/she will not be Jewish, not only because I'm not Jewish, won't convert (he hasn't asked me to and I wouldn't as I am not religious anyway) but for other reasons I won't go into which aren't relevant anyway. Your current relationship doesn't sound anything like mine. Unless your boyfriend is willing to actually give up his mother/community/future children being maternally Jewish, I don't think he will propose. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Big hugs to you, whether you stay together or eventually move on.

 

[Rhea]

It doesn't sound good to me that after 2.5 years together he's not willing to discuss this issue without getting upset. Having the ring and planning how he's going to propose isn't really good enough. How you plan to raise your children and family relationships are important and discussing openly and honestly now will save a lot of trouble later.

I dated a Mormon for nearly 3 years and while I loved him I stopped dating him because of his views on family. Up until that point I think we were both trying to please each other, and not quite being honest with ourselves about what we wanted and expected from a relationship and our future.

 

[swimmer]

Hmmm, not sure if you are reading, but there are lots of interfaith groups out there where you could meet other people who are struggling with this very issue. My "unaffiliated" congregation is even more alternative than reform and is chock full of former conservative and even orthos who totally identify with the Jewish culture, tikkun olam, and want our children raised within the community, but we might not necessarily ahem, believe in God. You have heard the saying, "two Jews, three opinions" well, that is true and even as I shook my head at your first post and thought, "he is secretly trolling j-date to find her replacement," well, if his mom was open-minded enough to let you stay at her house? Hmmm.

There is an awesome list out there from the nytimes of topics to discuss before marriage. They are no joke, do it (even though I am currently too lazy/morningsickatnight to look up the link for you). "why would you ask that?" is moronic and call him on it. Because it is an important question, that is why. There are no stupid questions, Jewish culture is all about asking questions, point that out to him at your next seder.

I just wanted to point out some other convo points that come up, from what I have seen with my girlfriends who were raised Christian but married a Jewish man or woman. (Yes, many reform Rabbis will marry same sex couples.)

-Circumcision. talk about that hypothetical future penis, it could very well become an issue. If you think it is mutilation, know that his mother is planning the lox and bagels that go with the ceremony. This is pretty much a non-negotiable for a Jewish guy.
-Christmas tree- can you imagine life without having one in your home ever?
-Hebrew school- this could be a non factor, but your man probably endured it and might be picturing your children enduring it (our modern version of 40 yrs in the desert) It is Sunday mornings and sometimes two weekday afternoons till the age of 13. discuss.
-What does it mean to him to have a Jewish family? Membership at the JCC? summer camp? Shabbos every friday night and services on Sat? Just to make sure you are on the same page.

He needs to let you talk about this. If you were going to a foreign country you would buy a guide. He is now your guide, to his personal version of Judaism. Only he can fully explain what that means (My sister keeps kosher at home for her DH's Zaide and eats shrimp at my house, go figure!) 6million Jews on earth and probably 7million ways to be Jewish. Have more conversations with him and consider reading some Anita Diamant in addition to the nytimes topics to discus list.

 

[RebeccaMUA]

Swimmer,
What an EXCELLENT post. I truly hope Inflorescence reads this and takes it into consideration and with much thought.

 

[chemgirl]

Hmmm, not sure if you are reading, but there are lots of interfaith groups out there where you could meet other people who are struggling with this very issue. My "unaffiliated" congregation is even more alternative than reform and is chock full of former conservative and even orthos who totally identify with the Jewish culture, tikkun olam, and want our children raised within the community, but we might not necessarily ahem, believe in God. You have heard the saying, "two Jews, three opinions" well, that is true and even as I shook my head at your first post and thought, "he is secretly trolling j-date to find her replacement," well, if his mom was open-minded enough to let you stay at her house? Hmmm.

There is an awesome list out there from the nytimes of topics to discuss before marriage. They are no joke, do it (even though I am currently too lazy/morningsickatnight to look up the link for you). "why would you ask that?" is moronic and call him on it. Because it is an important question, that is why. There are no stupid questions, Jewish culture is all about asking questions, point that out to him at your next seder.

I just wanted to point out some other convo points that come up, from what I have seen with my girlfriends who were raised Christian but married a Jewish man or woman. (Yes, many reform Rabbis will marry same sex couples.)

-Circumcision. talk about that hypothetical future penis, it could very well become an issue. If you think it is mutilation, know that his mother is planning the lox and bagels that go with the ceremony. This is pretty much a non-negotiable for a Jewish guy.
-Christmas tree- can you imagine life without having one in your home ever?
-Hebrew school- this could be a non factor, but your man probably endured it and might be picturing your children enduring it (our modern version of 40 yrs in the desert) It is Sunday mornings and sometimes two weekday afternoons till the age of 13. discuss.
-What does it mean to him to have a Jewish family? Membership at the JCC? summer camp? Shabbos every friday night and services on Sat? Just to make sure you are on the same page.

He needs to let you talk about this. If you were going to a foreign country you would buy a guide. He is now your guide, to his personal version of Judaism. Only he can fully explain what that means (My sister keeps kosher at home for her DH's Zaide and eats shrimp at my house, go figure!) 6million Jews on earth and probably 7million ways to be Jewish. Have more conversations with him and consider reading some Anita Diamant in addition to the nytimes topics to discus list.

I was totally thinking this. Staying at his mom's house for any length of time tells me that she's less resistant than I gathered from the original post. My ex's mom was very upset whenever her son begged her to let me stay over and then it was always a big show to be allowed in the guest room. They lived in a mansion with several guest rooms and she always tried to put me on a cot in the basement

Inflorescence, have you met his extended family? Have you participated in any holidays? Incorporating you in to his family is definitely a good sign. I noticed that my ex, and his male friends dating non-jewish girls tended to avoid introducing the girls to grandma. "No use upsetting everyone over nothing" was thrown around by a few different guys who didn't have the best intentions. That's why I say being an active part of his family is huge.

I still think you should be able to talk about your future without it turning in to a fight. Your questions are valid and it sounds like you're scared to talk to him about them. I mean its his future too, it shouldn't be an annoying conversation for him. Maybe he's stressed by other things? I don't know, I just think your paraphrased discussion was harder than it had to be.

 

[allycat0303]

Influo: when I read your post I gasped because I thought it was one of my friends writing. She is a wonderful girl who has been with her boyfriend for NINE YEARS. He is Jewish and she is Italian. From the very beginning he made it clear that the obstacle to their future together was that she was not Jewish. He is a surgeon, and she is an physical therapist. She waited for him when he moved to the US for the past 2 years to pursue his training. They are now living together after the long separation, and he has still not proposed. She has agreed to convert but he still has not proposed. She turned 33 this year, and has always wanted a large family. Honestly, I'm afraid for her because I feel that it's possible the religious obstacle is too big for him to overcome. I say that because she's been ready for marriage for the last 7 years, if it has not changed in that amount if time, chances are it might not happen.

I don't think this is the same situation as you because you have been with him for 2.5 years. It's still within a reasonable time frame, and if he's been straight forward that he will marry you and has a definitive timeline, etc, I would give it a chance. That being said, I think converting is a big deal. I'm Mormon, and I'm REALLY not religious. I don't care about the religion per say, but the fact that I'm not accepted as I am (on principal) would worry me.

But don't wait almost a decade like my friend did!

Good luck!